making exceptions for zypper locks
it would really be handy to be able to further define zypper locks to include a group such as "*-lang" and exclude single items such as "p04a-lang" which is "required" for p04a. also gimp-gap-lang which gimp-gap requires. or those packages be corrected to not require *-lang. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode What sort of day was it? A day like all days, filled with those events that alter and illuminate our times... all things are as they were then, but were you there?
On 28.10.2021 21:38, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
it would really be handy to be able to further define zypper locks to include a group such as "*-lang" and exclude single items such as "p04a-lang" which is "required" for p04a.
zypper supports regular expressions, so something like this may work type: package solvable_name: ^([^p].*|p[^0].*|p0[^4].*|p04[^a]\.*)-lang$ match_type: regex case_sensitive: on Would be nice if regular expressions in general supported something like "pattern A except pattern B".
also gimp-gap-lang which gimp-gap requires.
or those packages be corrected to not require *-lang.
* Andrei Borzenkov <arvidjaar@gmail.com> [10-28-21 15:38]:
On 28.10.2021 21:38, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
it would really be handy to be able to further define zypper locks to include a group such as "*-lang" and exclude single items such as "p04a-lang" which is "required" for p04a.
zypper supports regular expressions, so something like this may work
type: package
solvable_name: ^([^p].*|p[^0].*|p0[^4].*|p04[^a]\.*)-lang$
match_type: regex case_sensitive: on
would become somewhat more awkard to add gimp-gap to that expression. and much more so if several more were necessary.
Would be nice if regular expressions in general supported something like "pattern A except pattern B".
also gimp-gap-lang which gimp-gap requires.
or those packages be corrected to not require *-lang.
all said, the requirements for po4a and gimp-gap are fubar. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode What sort of day was it? A day like all days, filled with those events that alter and illuminate our times... all things are as they were then, but were you there?
Patrick Shanahan composed on 2021-10-28 14:38 (UTC-0400):
it would really be handy to be able to further define zypper locks to include a group such as "*-lang" and exclude single items such as "p04a-lang" which is "required" for p04a.
also gimp-gap-lang which gimp-gap requires.
or those packages be corrected to not require *-lang.
IMO, on support list the issue will just blow by anyone who might do anything about it. IMO, correct way forward is to never "require" any -lang package[2], or any specific *font* package[1]. I've been "breaking" various packages for years without finding any evidence of genuine breakage on account of any absent font or lang package. It's been a serious nuisance having to "break" packages with routine zypper dups: Problem: the installed kde3-k3b-1.0.5-lp152.69.1.x86_64 requires 'kde3-k3b-lang = 1.0.5… Problem: the installed kdebase3-SuSE-11.3-lp152.102.5.x86_64 requires 'kdebase3-SuSE-lang'… Problem: the installed libkipi0-0.1.6-lp152.56.1.x86_64 requires 'libkipi0-lang = 0.1.6'… Problem: the installed yast2-qt-branding-openSUSE-15.2.20200203-lp152.1.5.noarch requires 'google-opensans-fonts'… Problem: the installed udisks2-2.8.1-lp152.1.4.x86_64 requires 'xfsprogs'… [1] https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=992519 [2] https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1172895 -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On 28/10/2021 21.52, Felix Miata wrote:
Patrick Shanahan composed on 2021-10-28 14:38 (UTC-0400):
it would really be handy to be able to further define zypper locks to include a group such as "*-lang" and exclude single items such as "p04a-lang" which is "required" for p04a.
also gimp-gap-lang which gimp-gap requires.
or those packages be corrected to not require *-lang.
IMO, on support list the issue will just blow by anyone who might do anything about it.
IMO, correct way forward is to never "require" any -lang package[2], or any specific *font* package[1]. I've been "breaking" various packages for years without finding any evidence of genuine breakage on account of any absent font or lang package.
Well, I can prove those packages are broken :-) Give me an account on your machine. I will set "LANG=es_ES.utf8", and run any program, expecting it to display in Spanish, but it will display in English and I will not know what to do because I don't speak English. Your installation is broken by definition. :-D Ok, repeat the same with an Australian, British, Canadian, etc, just not an USAian. The messages will display in English, but not the customization for the local country. As most of those translation files are tiny, it is not worth it to create a different rpm for each language and they go all together. So the policy for the distribution has to be to require those translation rpms, not just recommend them, or the installation would be severely broken for not English speaking persons. Now, if you can devise a packaging method that allows English speaking people to opt out of the translations, easily, I'm sure packagers will listen. Some people accept the installation, just remove them later with a cron job. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [10-28-21 16:22]:
On 28/10/2021 21.52, Felix Miata wrote:
Patrick Shanahan composed on 2021-10-28 14:38 (UTC-0400):
it would really be handy to be able to further define zypper locks to include a group such as "*-lang" and exclude single items such as "p04a-lang" which is "required" for p04a.
also gimp-gap-lang which gimp-gap requires.
or those packages be corrected to not require *-lang.
IMO, on support list the issue will just blow by anyone who might do anything about it.
IMO, correct way forward is to never "require" any -lang package[2], or any specific *font* package[1]. I've been "breaking" various packages for years without finding any evidence of genuine breakage on account of any absent font or lang package.
Well, I can prove those packages are broken :-)
Give me an account on your machine. I will set "LANG=es_ES.utf8", and run any program, expecting it to display in Spanish, but it will display in English and I will not know what to do because I don't speak English. Your installation is broken by definition.
:-D
Ok, repeat the same with an Australian, British, Canadian, etc, just not an USAian. The messages will display in English, but not the customization for the local country.
As most of those translation files are tiny, it is not worth it to create a different rpm for each language and they go all together.
So the policy for the distribution has to be to require those translation rpms, not just recommend them, or the installation would be severely broken for not English speaking persons.
Now, if you can devise a packaging method that allows English speaking people to opt out of the translations, easily, I'm sure packagers will listen.
Some people accept the installation, just remove them later with a cron job.
try removing po4a-lang. the *packages* requiring "*-lang" packages are broken. They are not "required" for installation. one may optionally install *-lang packages, as one desires, but one should also be able to exclude same. because *you* want a lang package does not mean I do. because you want to install a particular package, does not mean that I must also. po4a and gimp-gap buiilds *require* install of lang packages. they are *broken* builds. AND THE *-lang PACKAGES ARE ADDIITONAL RPMs. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode What sort of day was it? A day like all days, filled with those events that alter and illuminate our times... all things are as they were then, but were you there?
On 28/10/2021 22.35, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <...> [10-28-21 16:22]:
On 28/10/2021 21.52, Felix Miata wrote:
Patrick Shanahan composed on 2021-10-28 14:38 (UTC-0400):
Some people accept the installation, just remove them later with a cron job.
try removing po4a-lang.
Why would I? :-) Anyway, I don't have it installed. Telcontar:~ # rpm -qi po4a-lang package po4a-lang is not installed Telcontar:~ #
the *packages* requiring "*-lang" packages are broken. They are not "required" for installation.
I proved they are :-)
one may optionally install *-lang packages, as one desires, but one should also be able to exclude same. because *you* want a lang package does not mean I do. because you want to install a particular package, does not mean that I must also.
No, the language packages can not be made "recommended but not required". That would be way worse and cause severe problems - not for you, but for the rest of the world. You have to design someway to make those packages default, but opt out. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [10-28-21 16:59]:
On 28/10/2021 22.35, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <...> [10-28-21 16:22]:
On 28/10/2021 21.52, Felix Miata wrote:
Patrick Shanahan composed on 2021-10-28 14:38 (UTC-0400):
Some people accept the installation, just remove them later with a cron job.
try removing po4a-lang.
Why would I? :-)
Anyway, I don't have it installed.
to test the possibility of "removing them later with a cron job" which will not work.
Telcontar:~ # rpm -qi po4a-lang package po4a-lang is not installed Telcontar:~ #
the *packages* requiring "*-lang" packages are broken. They are not "required" for installation.
I proved they are :-)
you *said* that they were, you proved nothing. I have two lang packages currently installed *only* because they were required and both are separate rpm packages.
one may optionally install *-lang packages, as one desires, but one should also be able to exclude same. because *you* want a lang package does not mean I do. because you want to install a particular package, does not mean that I must also.
No, the language packages can not be made "recommended but not required". That would be way worse and cause severe problems - not for you, but for the rest of the world.
You have to design someway to make those packages default, but opt out.
it is already possible if the packages are correctly build. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode What sort of day was it? A day like all days, filled with those events that alter and illuminate our times... all things are as they were then, but were you there?
On 28/10/2021 23.12, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [10-28-21 16:59]:
On 28/10/2021 22.35, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <...> [10-28-21 16:22]:
On 28/10/2021 21.52, Felix Miata wrote:
Patrick Shanahan composed on 2021-10-28 14:38 (UTC-0400):
Some people accept the installation, just remove them later with a cron job.
try removing po4a-lang.
Why would I? :-)
Anyway, I don't have it installed.
to test the possibility of "removing them later with a cron job" which will not work.
Fair enough, but I cannot do the test. Try: rpm --erase --force --nodeps po4a-lang ...
one may optionally install *-lang packages, as one desires, but one should also be able to exclude same. because *you* want a lang package does not mean I do. because you want to install a particular package, does not mean that I must also.
No, the language packages can not be made "recommended but not required". That would be way worse and cause severe problems - not for you, but for the rest of the world.
You have to design someway to make those packages default, but opt out.
it is already possible if the packages are correctly build.
Correctly built means requiring all the translations, sorry. That you do not want them is irrelevant from a distribution point of view. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [10-28-21 21:13]:
On 28/10/2021 23.12, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [10-28-21 16:59]:
On 28/10/2021 22.35, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <...> [10-28-21 16:22]:
On 28/10/2021 21.52, Felix Miata wrote:
Patrick Shanahan composed on 2021-10-28 14:38 (UTC-0400):
Some people accept the installation, just remove them later with a cron job.
try removing po4a-lang.
Why would I? :-)
Anyway, I don't have it installed.
to test the possibility of "removing them later with a cron job" which will not work.
Fair enough, but I cannot do the test.
Try:
rpm --erase --force --nodeps po4a-lang
but then you have officially broken the po4a package. I can do the same with zypper, but that is not kosher.
...
one may optionally install *-lang packages, as one desires, but one should also be able to exclude same. because *you* want a lang package does not mean I do. because you want to install a particular package, does not mean that I must also.
No, the language packages can not be made "recommended but not required". That would be way worse and cause severe problems - not for you, but for the rest of the world.
You have to design someway to make those packages default, but opt out.
it is already possible if the packages are correctly build.
Correctly built means requiring all the translations, sorry.
then 98% of the builds are incorrect, just see how many <app>-lang packages exist. those applications do not include lang packages in their rpm's.
That you do not want them is irrelevant from a distribution point of view.
that is correct, but the ability to correctly not install them is not. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode What sort of day was it? A day like all days, filled with those events that alter and illuminate our times... all things are as they were then, but were you there?
Em qui., 28 de out. de 2021 às 17:36, Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org> escreveu:
po4a and gimp-gap buiilds *require* install of lang packages. they are *broken* builds. AND THE *-lang PACKAGES ARE ADDIITONAL RPMs.
Hi, Have you thought about reporting these *broken" builds so the maintainers know it and get it corrected? For po4a I already did: https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/928044 Regards, Luiz
participants (5)
-
Andrei Borzenkov -
Carlos E. R. -
Felix Miata -
Luiz Fernando Ranghetti -
Patrick Shanahan