Blank Login window fields and descriptors:
Hi, after an update to Tumbleweed snapshot 20240125, the Login window entry field key character input and identification field listings are blank. In fact everything is blank for that matter including the user image. KDE Plasma Version: 5.27.10 KDE frameworks Version: 5.114.0 Qt Version: 5.15.12 Kernel Version: 6.7.1-1-pae (32-bit) Graphics Platform: X11 - Here's a picture of the current login window: https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/c19b6215f700 Any thoughts on what or which package(s) caused this issue? Still able to login after entering password. -Regards
On 28.01.2024 09:20, -pj wrote:
Hi, after an update to Tumbleweed snapshot 20240125, the Login window entry field key character input and identification field listings are blank. In fact everything is blank for that matter including the user image.
KDE Plasma Version: 5.27.10
KDE frameworks Version: 5.114.0
Qt Version: 5.15.12
Kernel Version: 6.7.1-1-pae (32-bit)
Graphics Platform: X11
Login is displayed before any user desktop environment is loaded, so you need to tell what display manager you are using.
-
Here's a picture of the current login window: https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/c19b6215f700
Any thoughts on what or which package(s) caused this issue?
Still able to login after entering password.
-Regards
On 01-28-2024 12:43AM, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On 28.01.2024 09:20, -pj wrote:
Hi, after an update to Tumbleweed snapshot 20240125, the Login window entry field key character input and identification field listings are blank. In fact everything is blank for that matter including the user image.
KDE Plasma Version: 5.27.10
KDE frameworks Version: 5.114.0
Qt Version: 5.15.12
Kernel Version: 6.7.1-1-pae (32-bit)
Graphics Platform: X11
Login is displayed before any user desktop environment is loaded, so you need to tell what display manager you are using.
Thanks for this info, I am using SDDM I think. 'sudo update-alternatives --list default-displaymanager' /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm - Graphics: Device-1: Intel Mobile 945GM/GMS 943/940GML Express Integrated Graphics vendor: Hewlett-Packard driver: i915 v: kernel arch: Gen-3.5 bus-ID: 00:02.0 Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 21.1.11 with: Xwayland v: 23.2.4 driver: X: loaded: intel unloaded: fbdev,modesetting,vesa dri: i915 gpu: i915 resolution: 1280x800 API: EGL v: 1.4,1.5 drivers: i915,swrast platforms: active: x11,surfaceless,device inactive: gbm,wayland API: OpenGL v: 4.5 compat-v: 2.1 vendor: mesa v: 23.3.4 glx-v: 1.4 direct-render: yes renderer: i915 (: 945GM) API: Vulkan Message: No Vulkan data available.
-
Here's a picture of the current login window: https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/c19b6215f700
Any thoughts on what or which package(s) caused this issue?
Still able to login after entering password.
-Regards
On 01-28-2024 01:04AM, -pj wrote:
On 01-28-2024 12:43AM, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On 28.01.2024 09:20, -pj wrote:
Hi, after an update to Tumbleweed snapshot 20240125, the Login window entry field key character input and identification field listings are blank. In fact everything is blank for that matter including the user image.
KDE Plasma Version: 5.27.10
KDE frameworks Version: 5.114.0
Qt Version: 5.15.12
Kernel Version: 6.7.1-1-pae (32-bit)
Graphics Platform: X11
Login is displayed before any user desktop environment is loaded, so you need to tell what display manager you are using.
Thanks for this info, I am using SDDM I think. 'sudo update-alternatives --list default-displaymanager'
/usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console
/usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm
/usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm
-
Graphics: Device-1: Intel Mobile 945GM/GMS 943/940GML Express Integrated Graphics vendor: Hewlett-Packard driver: i915 v: kernel arch: Gen-3.5 bus-ID: 00:02.0 Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 21.1.11 with: Xwayland v: 23.2.4 driver: X: loaded: intel unloaded: fbdev,modesetting,vesa dri: i915 gpu: i915 resolution: 1280x800 API: EGL v: 1.4,1.5 drivers: i915,swrast platforms: active: x11,surfaceless,device inactive: gbm,wayland API: OpenGL v: 4.5 compat-v: 2.1 vendor: mesa v: 23.3.4 glx-v: 1.4 direct-render: yes renderer: i915 (: 945GM) API: Vulkan Message: No Vulkan data available.
user@localhost:~> systemctl status sddm.service ○ sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; disabled; preset: disabled) Active: inactive (dead) Docs: man:sddm(1) man:sddm.conf(5) user@localhost:~> How did SDDM become disabled? Could this be the source of the problem?
-
Here's a picture of the current login window: https://paste.opensuse.org/pastes/c19b6215f700
Any thoughts on what or which package(s) caused this issue?
Still able to login after entering password.
-Regards
On 01-28-2024 01:17AM, -pj wrote:
On 01-28-2024 01:04AM, -pj wrote:
On 01-28-2024 12:43AM, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On 28.01.2024 09:20, -pj wrote:
Hi, after an update to Tumbleweed snapshot 20240125, the Login window entry field key character input and identification field listings are blank. In fact everything is blank for that matter including the user image.
KDE Plasma Version: 5.27.10
KDE frameworks Version: 5.114.0
Qt Version: 5.15.12
Kernel Version: 6.7.1-1-pae (32-bit)
Graphics Platform: X11
Login is displayed before any user desktop environment is loaded, so you need to tell what display manager you are using.
Thanks for this info, I am using *xdm* I think. 'sudo update-alternatives --list default-displaymanager'
/usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console
/usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm
/usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm
-
Graphics: Device-1: Intel Mobile 945GM/GMS 943/940GML Express Integrated Graphics vendor: Hewlett-Packard driver: i915 v: kernel arch: Gen-3.5 bus-ID: 00:02.0 Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 21.1.11 with: Xwayland v: 23.2.4 driver: X: loaded: intel unloaded: fbdev,modesetting,vesa dri: i915 gpu: i915 resolution: 1280x800 API: EGL v: 1.4,1.5 drivers: i915,swrast platforms: active: x11,surfaceless,device inactive: gbm,wayland API: OpenGL v: 4.5 compat-v: 2.1 vendor: mesa v: 23.3.4 glx-v: 1.4 direct-render: yes renderer: i915 (: 945GM) API: Vulkan Message: No Vulkan data available.
@localhost:~> systemctl status xdm.service ● display-manager.service - X Display Manager Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/display-manager.service; enabled; preset: enabled) Active: active (running) since Sun 2024-01-28 00:05:37 CST; 1h 17min ago Process: 1657 ExecStart=/usr/lib/X11/display-manager start (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS) Main PID: 1689 (sddm) Tasks: 5 (limit: 4915) CPU: 21.361s CGroup: /system.slice/display-manager.service ├─1689 /usr/bin/sddm └─1784 /usr/bin/Xorg.bin -nolisten tcp -background none -seat seat0 vt2 -auth /run/sddm/xauth_RPsDpd -noreset -displayfd 16
Warning: some journal files were not opened due to insufficient permissions. @localhost:~>
In data domenica 28 gennaio 2024 08:17:27 CET, -pj ha scritto:
user@localhost:~> systemctl status sddm.service ○ sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; disabled; preset: disabled) Active: inactive (dead) Docs: man:sddm(1) man:sddm.conf(5) user@localhost:~>
How did SDDM become disabled? Could this be the source of the problem? This seems to be the standard behavior in TW with SDDM and Plasma.
I am currently not understanding your issue, what should the SDDM do instead of the screenshot you show. Here with Operating System: openSUSE Tumbleweed 20240125 KDE Plasma Version: 5.27.10 KDE Frameworks Version: 5.114.0 Qt Version: 5.15.12 Kernel Version: 6.7.1-1-default (64-bit) Graphics Platform: X11 Processors: 12 × AMD Ryzen 5 5600G with Radeon Graphics Memory: 62.7 GiB of RAM Graphics Processor: AMD Radeon Pro W5500 Product Name: X570 Phantom Gaming 4 you get: entropy@silversurfer:~> systemctl status sddm.service ○ sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; disabled; preset: disabled) Active: inactive (dead) Docs: man:sddm(1) man:sddm.conf(5) Not that I did ever see another behavior or look, if it is for that.
In data domenica 28 gennaio 2024 10:20:29 CET, Stakanov ha scritto:
In data domenica 28 gennaio 2024 08:17:27 CET, -pj ha scritto:
user@localhost:~> systemctl status sddm.service
○ sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager
Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; disabled;
preset: disabled)
Active: inactive (dead)
Docs: man:sddm(1)
man:sddm.conf(5)
user@localhost:~>
How did SDDM become disabled? Could this be the source of the problem?
This seems to be the standard behavior in TW with SDDM and Plasma.
I am currently not understanding your issue, what should the SDDM do instead of the screenshot you show.
Here with Operating System: openSUSE Tumbleweed 20240125 KDE Plasma Version: 5.27.10 KDE Frameworks Version: 5.114.0 Qt Version: 5.15.12 Kernel Version: 6.7.1-1-default (64-bit) Graphics Platform: X11 Processors: 12 × AMD Ryzen 5 5600G with Radeon Graphics Memory: 62.7 GiB of RAM Graphics Processor: AMD Radeon Pro W5500 Product Name: X570 Phantom Gaming 4
you get: entropy@silversurfer:~> systemctl status sddm.service ○ sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; disabled; preset: disabled) Active: inactive (dead) Docs: man:sddm(1) man:sddm.conf(5)
Not that I did ever see another behavior or look, if it is for that.
oh, I see, you mean that the first(!) loaded sddm is without any picture background etc. It actually should show the username, so this is odd. But the rest is the very same on this system, just black background. On my system, as long as a user has not been logged in into plasma, you will not have any background picture or similar. They are only loaded from the environment of that user as far as I see on this system. So using "switch user" during the KDE session does show you a modded sddm page if you have set it so. AFAIK the "standard login sddm" does not.
On 01-28-2024 03:24AM, Stakanov wrote:
In data domenica 28 gennaio 2024 10:20:29 CET, Stakanov ha scritto:
In data domenica 28 gennaio 2024 08:17:27 CET, -pj ha scritto:
user@localhost:~> systemctl status sddm.service
○ sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager
Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; disabled;
preset: disabled)
Active: inactive (dead)
Docs:man:sddm(1)
man:sddm.conf(5)
user@localhost:~>
How did SDDM become disabled? Could this be the source of the problem? This seems to be the standard behavior in TW with SDDM and Plasma.
I am currently not understanding your issue, what should the SDDM do instead of the screenshot you show.
Here with Operating System: openSUSE Tumbleweed 20240125 KDE Plasma Version: 5.27.10 KDE Frameworks Version: 5.114.0 Qt Version: 5.15.12 Kernel Version: 6.7.1-1-default (64-bit) Graphics Platform: X11 Processors: 12 × AMD Ryzen 5 5600G with Radeon Graphics Memory: 62.7 GiB of RAM Graphics Processor: AMD Radeon Pro W5500 Product Name: X570 Phantom Gaming 4
you get: entropy@silversurfer:~> systemctl status sddm.service ○ sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; disabled; preset: disabled) Active: inactive (dead) Docs:man:sddm(1) man:sddm.conf(5)
Not that I did ever see another behavior or look, if it is for that. oh, I see, you mean that the first(!) loaded sddm is without any picture background etc. It actually should show the username, so this is odd. But the rest is the very same on this system, just black background.
On my system, as long as a user has not been logged in into plasma, you will not have any background picture or similar. They are only loaded from the environment of that user as far as I see on this system. So using "switch user" during the KDE session does show you a modded sddm page if you have set it so. AFAIK the "standard login sddm" does not.
I have been reading /man sddm/ and from my limited knowledge? user@localhost:/usr/lib/sddm/sddm.conf.d> ls -lah total 12K drwxr-xr-x 1 root root 96 Nov 1 03:32 . drwxr-xr-x 1 root root 22 Oct 9 04:42 .. -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 252 Oct 9 04:42 00-general.conf -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 59 Oct 9 04:42 10-theme.conf -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 200 Oct 9 04:42 11-kwin_wayland.conf user@localhost:/usr/lib/sddm/sddm.conf.d> - - user@localhost:/usr/lib/sddm/sddm.conf.d> cat 11-kwin_wayland.conf [General] GreeterEnvironment=QT_WAYLAND_SHELL_INTEGRATION=layer-shell [Wayland] # --locale1 was introduced in kwin 5.27 CompositorCommand=kwin_wayland --no-global-shortcuts --no-lockscreen --locale1 user@localhost:/usr/lib/sddm/sddm.conf.d> - user@localhost:/usr/lib/sddm/sddm.conf.d> cat 00-general.conf [XDisplay] ServerPath=/usr/bin/X SessionCommand=/usr/etc/X11/xdm/Xsession DisplayCommand=/usr/etc/X11/xdm/Xsetup # No effect in 0.20.0, might change in the future again MinimumVT=7 # boo#1089932 EnableHiDPI=true [Users] # boo#979775 ReuseSession=true user@localhost:/usr/lib/sddm/sddm.conf.d> - I have also been noticing kwin seems to occasionally crash and asks if I would like to file a bug report. I have not done that yet. - # update-alternatives --config default-displaymanager There are 3 choices for the alternative default-displaymanager (providing /usr/lib/X11/displaym anagers/default-displaymanager). Selection Path Priority Status ------------------------------------------------------------ * 0 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 auto mode 1 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console 5 manual mode 2 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 manual mode 3 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm 10 manual mode Press <enter> to keep the current choice[*], or type selection number: :/> systemctl status xdm.service ●display-manager.service - X Display Manager Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/display-manager.service; enabled; preset: enabled) Active: active (running)since Sat 2024-01-27 23:50:32 CST; 4h 7min ago Process: 1773 ExecStart=/usr/lib/X11/display-manager start (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS) Main PID: 1788 (sddm) Tasks: 4 (limit: 4915) CPU: 4min 10.546s CGroup: /system.slice/display-manager.service ├─1788 /usr/bin/sddm └─1812 /usr/bin/Xorg.bin -nolisten tcp -background none -seat seat0 vt2 -auth /ru> Warning: some journal files were not opened due to insufficient permissions. :/> systemctl status sddm.service ○ sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; disabled; preset: disabled) Active: inactive (dead) Docs: man:sddm(1) man:sddm.conf(5) :/> It's odd to me that SDDM is disabled on both the pc's here and then SDDM is listed as the Main PID in enabled XDM service . Attempting to switch to SDDM then powercycling does not help the situation, i.e. # update-alternatives --config default-displaymanager(select sddm). I tried XDM and yes the login window displays typed entries but XDM in itself seems quite rudimentary.
On 2024-01-28 11:19, -pj wrote:
Side tracking.
# update-alternatives --config default-displaymanager
There are 3 choices for the alternative default-displaymanager (providing /usr/lib/X11/displaym anagers/default-displaymanager).
Selection Path Priority Status ------------------------------------------------------------ * 0 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 auto mode 1 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console 5 manual mode 2 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 manual mode 3 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm 10 manual mode
I see you are posting with Thunderbird in html. That's Ok with me, but please, improve it :-) — the proportional font makes command output weird. When you post command output, do so using paragraph format "preformat", which uses a monospace font and disables line wrap. Like this: Selection Path Priority Status ------------------------------------------------------------ * 0 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 auto mode 1 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console 5 manual mode 2 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 manual mode 3 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm 10 manual mode You can also indent it once, looks nicer ;-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 12:11:14 +0100 "Carlos E.R." <robin.listas@gmx.es> wrote:
I see you are posting with Thunderbird in html. That's Ok with me, but please, improve it :-) — the proportional font makes command output weird.
Until you posted I had not seen any HTML part. My mailer just shows the rfc822 part by default. So there's no such thing as a proportional font. The font choice is mine, not his. So my suggestion is to use a sensible mail reader.
On 2024-01-28 12:58, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 12:11:14 +0100 "Carlos E.R." <...> wrote:
I see you are posting with Thunderbird in html. That's Ok with me, but please, improve it :-) — the proportional font makes command output weird.
Until you posted I had not seen any HTML part. My mailer just shows the rfc822 part by default. So there's no such thing as a proportional font. The font choice is mine, not his.
So my suggestion is to use a sensible mail reader.
I use what is possibly the most popular mail client in the Linux world, Thunderbird, same as he does. But any "modern" and powerful client that renders html properly will show the same effect. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [01-28-24 07:38]:
On 2024-01-28 12:58, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 12:11:14 +0100 "Carlos E.R." <...> wrote:
I see you are posting with Thunderbird in html. That's Ok with me, but please, improve it :-) — the proportional font makes command output weird.
Until you posted I had not seen any HTML part. My mailer just shows the rfc822 part by default. So there's no such thing as a proportional font. The font choice is mine, not his.
So my suggestion is to use a sensible mail reader.
I use what is possibly the most popular mail client in the Linux world, Thunderbird, same as he does. But any "modern" and powerful client that renders html properly will show the same effect.
but email is text, html is like running compuserve -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
On 2024-01-28 15:38, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [01-28-24 07:38]:
On 2024-01-28 12:58, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 12:11:14 +0100 "Carlos E.R." <...> wrote:
I see you are posting with Thunderbird in html. That's Ok with me, but please, improve it :-) — the proportional font makes command output weird.
Until you posted I had not seen any HTML part. My mailer just shows the rfc822 part by default. So there's no such thing as a proportional font. The font choice is mine, not his.
So my suggestion is to use a sensible mail reader.
I use what is possibly the most popular mail client in the Linux world, Thunderbird, same as he does. But any "modern" and powerful client that renders html properly will show the same effect.
but email is text, html is like running compuserve
Even old farts like us can modernize :-P Html is no longer blocked on all the mail lists here, you will have to adapt. You can use a client that doesn't render it and thus hide it, but it will be there nonetheless, and there will be more. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 15:44:04 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 2024-01-28 15:38, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [01-28-24 07:38]:
On 2024-01-28 12:58, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 12:11:14 +0100 "Carlos E.R." <...> wrote:
I see you are posting with Thunderbird in html. That's Ok with me, but please, improve it :-) — the proportional font makes command output weird.
Until you posted I had not seen any HTML part. My mailer just shows the rfc822 part by default. So there's no such thing as a proportional font. The font choice is mine, not his.
So my suggestion is to use a sensible mail reader.
I use what is possibly the most popular mail client in the Linux world, Thunderbird, same as he does. But any "modern" and powerful client that renders html properly will show the same effect.
but email is text, html is like running compuserve
Even old farts like us can modernize :-P
Html is no longer blocked on all the mail lists here, you will have to adapt. You can use a client that doesn't render it and thus hide it, but it will be there nonetheless, and there will be more.
But there is the possibility of confusion (at its most polite) with HTML, since it is a separate part. I frequently receive mailshots from companies where the text and html parts say something completely different. I do not want to experience some malicious person doing that on a mailing list! And what does/can HTML bring extra to an email?
On 2024-01-28 17:34, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 15:44:04 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <...> wrote:
On 2024-01-28 15:38, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <...> [01-28-24 07:38]:
On 2024-01-28 12:58, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 12:11:14 +0100 "Carlos E.R." <...> wrote:
I see you are posting with Thunderbird in html. That's Ok with me, but please, improve it :-) — the proportional font makes command output weird. Until you posted I had not seen any HTML part. My mailer just shows the rfc822 part by default. So there's no such thing as a proportional font. The font choice is mine, not his.
So my suggestion is to use a sensible mail reader. I use what is possibly the most popular mail client in the Linux world, Thunderbird, same as he does. But any "modern" and powerful client that renders html properly will show the same effect. but email is text, html is like running compuserve Even old farts like us can modernize :-P
Html is no longer blocked on all the mail lists here, you will have to adapt. You can use a client that doesn't render it and thus hide it, but it will be there nonetheless, and there will be more. But there is the possibility of confusion (at its most polite) with HTML, since it is a separate part. I frequently receive mailshots from companies where the text and html parts say something completely different. I do not want to experience some malicious person doing that on a mailing list! And what does/can HTML bring extra to an email? This is not a commercial mail list, just normal people. So I don't expect to get mails with totally different parts like you say.
Then, I have never seen a dangerous html email, besides spam in the spam folder where the text says one thing and the link points to something different. What does it bring to a mail list like this one? Simple things. I can use a table, and I know that it will keep aligned: filename bytes timestamp fooo 0 today I can have easy to do lists of things: 1. one 2. two 3. three I can put a bunch of command line text where it is easy to see that it is command line text and easy to read, like: Telcontar:~ # update-alternatives --config default-displaymanager There are 5 choices for the alternative default-displaymanager (providing /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/default-displaymana Selection Path Priority Status ------------------------------------------------------------ * 0 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 auto mode 1 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console 5 manual mode 2 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/gdm 25 manual mode 3 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/lightdm 15 manual mode 4 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 manual mode 5 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm 10 manual mode Press <enter> to keep the current choice[*], or type selection number: Telcontar:~ # update-alternatives --list default-displaymanager /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/gdm /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/lightdm /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm Telcontar:~ # I can use *bold*, _underline_, /italics/ if I see fit. Yes, I can abuse and use glaring colours. Or simply copy paste from the terminals using the same colours as the terminal: *Telcontar:~ #* dmesg [ 0.000000] Linux version 5.14.21-150400.24.100-default (geeko@buildhost) (gcc (SUSE Linux) 7.5.0, GNU ld (GNU Binutils; SUSE Linux Enterprise 15) 2.41.0.20230908-150100.7.46) #1 SMP PREEMPT_DYNAMIC Mon Dec 4 19:12:13 UTC 2023 (3f5cd84) [ 0.000000] Command line: BOOT_IMAGE=/vmlinuz-5.14.21-150400.24.100-default root=UUID=ac173013-18ad-4c4e-921e-fd2ecfb56495 resume=/dev/disk/by-label/nvme-swap splash=verbose verbose ... [195364.895116] rpfilter_DROP*: IN=eth0 OUT= MAC=33:33:00:00:00:fb:4c:cc:6a:61:50:a1:86:dd SRC=fc00:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0016 DST=ff02:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:00fb LEN=168 TC=0 HOPLIMIT=255 FLOWLBL=432531 PROTO=UDP SPT=5353 DPT=5353 LEN=128 * [195470.325143] rpfilter_DROP*: IN=eth0 OUT= MAC=33:33:00:00:00:fb:4c:cc:6a:61:50:a1:86:dd SRC=fc00:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0016 DST=ff02:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:00fb LEN=87 TC=0 HOPLIMIT=255 FLOWLBL=432531 PROTO=UDP SPT=5353 DPT=5353 LEN=47 * [196365.029910] rpfilter_DROP*: IN=eth0 OUT= MAC=33:33:00:00:00:fb:4c:cc:6a:61:50:a1:86:dd SRC=fc00:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0016 DST=ff02:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:00fb LEN=90 TC=0 HOPLIMIT=255 FLOWLBL=432531 PROTO=UDP SPT=5353 DPT=5353 LEN=50 * *Telcontar:~ #* Tell me, when typewriters came, did you refuse to use them and wrote letters with a fountain pen, because that was the tradition and not as dangerous? When typewriters with two inks came, did you replace the red and black ribbon with a black ribbon, to keep safe and traditional? When the word processor came, did you keep typing letters and correcting the errors with white magic ink? When the colour printer came, did you keep printing your letters in a thousand shades of grey? Even the Linux command line is colourized today. It's time we move on on email, too :-) The fact is, if html is no longer forbidden in the mail list, I'm gonna use it when I see the advantage. Without abusing it. And you are free to keep using clients that don't display it. I will not tell you to use html, either. The only thing I said, when I noticed mails coming html from other people, use it better. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
* Carlos E.R. <robin.listas@gmx.es> [01-28-24 12:54]:
On 2024-01-28 17:34, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 15:44:04 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <...> wrote:
On 2024-01-28 15:38, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <...> [01-28-24 07:38]:
On 2024-01-28 12:58, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 12:11:14 +0100 "Carlos E.R." <...> wrote: > I see you are posting with Thunderbird in html. That's Ok with > me, but please, improve it :-) — the proportional font makes > command output weird. Until you posted I had not seen any HTML part. My mailer just shows the rfc822 part by default. So there's no such thing as a proportional font. The font choice is mine, not his.
So my suggestion is to use a sensible mail reader. I use what is possibly the most popular mail client in the Linux world, Thunderbird, same as he does. But any "modern" and powerful client that renders html properly will show the same effect. but email is text, html is like running compuserve Even old farts like us can modernize :-P
Html is no longer blocked on all the mail lists here, you will have to adapt. You can use a client that doesn't render it and thus hide it, but it will be there nonetheless, and there will be more. But there is the possibility of confusion (at its most polite) with HTML, since it is a separate part. I frequently receive mailshots from companies where the text and html parts say something completely different. I do not want to experience some malicious person doing that on a mailing list! And what does/can HTML bring extra to an email? This is not a commercial mail list, just normal people. So I don't expect to get mails with totally different parts like you say.
Then, I have never seen a dangerous html email, besides spam in the spam folder where the text says one thing and the link points to something different.
What does it bring to a mail list like this one?
Simple things. I can use a table, and I know that it will keep aligned:
filename bytes timestamp fooo 0 today
I can have easy to do lists of things:
1. one 2. two 3. three
I can put a bunch of command line text where it is easy to see that it is command line text and easy to read, like:
Telcontar:~ # update-alternatives --config default-displaymanager There are 5 choices for the alternative default-displaymanager (providing /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/default-displaymana
Selection Path Priority Status ------------------------------------------------------------ * 0 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 auto mode 1 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console 5 manual mode 2 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/gdm 25 manual mode 3 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/lightdm 15 manual mode 4 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 manual mode 5 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm 10 manual mode
Press <enter> to keep the current choice[*], or type selection number: Telcontar:~ # update-alternatives --list default-displaymanager /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/gdm /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/lightdm /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm Telcontar:~ #
I can use *bold*, _underline_, /italics/ if I see fit.
Yes, I can abuse and use glaring colours. Or simply copy paste from the terminals using the same colours as the terminal:
*Telcontar:~ #* dmesg [ 0.000000] Linux version 5.14.21-150400.24.100-default (geeko@buildhost) (gcc (SUSE Linux) 7.5.0, GNU ld (GNU Binutils; SUSE Linux Enterprise 15) 2.41.0.20230908-150100.7.46) #1 SMP PREEMPT_DYNAMIC Mon Dec 4 19:12:13 UTC 2023 (3f5cd84) [ 0.000000] Command line: BOOT_IMAGE=/vmlinuz-5.14.21-150400.24.100-default root=UUID=ac173013-18ad-4c4e-921e-fd2ecfb56495 resume=/dev/disk/by-label/nvme-swap splash=verbose verbose
... [195364.895116] rpfilter_DROP*: IN=eth0 OUT= MAC=33:33:00:00:00:fb:4c:cc:6a:61:50:a1:86:dd SRC=fc00:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0016 DST=ff02:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:00fb LEN=168 TC=0 HOPLIMIT=255 FLOWLBL=432531 PROTO=UDP SPT=5353 DPT=5353 LEN=128 * [195470.325143] rpfilter_DROP*: IN=eth0 OUT= MAC=33:33:00:00:00:fb:4c:cc:6a:61:50:a1:86:dd SRC=fc00:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0016 DST=ff02:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:00fb LEN=87 TC=0 HOPLIMIT=255 FLOWLBL=432531 PROTO=UDP SPT=5353 DPT=5353 LEN=47 * [196365.029910] rpfilter_DROP*: IN=eth0 OUT= MAC=33:33:00:00:00:fb:4c:cc:6a:61:50:a1:86:dd SRC=fc00:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0016 DST=ff02:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:00fb LEN=90 TC=0 HOPLIMIT=255 FLOWLBL=432531 PROTO=UDP SPT=5353 DPT=5353 LEN=50 * *Telcontar:~ #*
Tell me, when typewriters came, did you refuse to use them and wrote letters with a fountain pen, because that was the tradition and not as dangerous? When typewriters with two inks came, did you replace the red and black ribbon with a black ribbon, to keep safe and traditional? When the word processor came, did you keep typing letters and correcting the errors with white magic ink? When the colour printer came, did you keep printing your letters in a thousand shades of grey?
Even the Linux command line is colourized today.
It's time we move on on email, too :-)
no.
The fact is, if html is no longer forbidden in the mail list, I'm gonna use it when I see the advantage. Without abusing it. And you are free to keep using clients that don't display it. I will not tell you to use html, either. The only thing I said, when I noticed mails coming html from other people, use it better.
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
and all the things you can do with html are possible with plain text next you will start advocating for m$. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
On 2024-01-28 18:59, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E.R. <> [01-28-24 12:54]:
On 2024-01-28 17:34, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 15:44:04 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <...> wrote:
On 2024-01-28 15:38, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
It's time we move on on email, too :-)
no.
The fact is, if html is no longer forbidden in the mail list, I'm gonna use it when I see the advantage. Without abusing it. And you are free to keep using clients that don't display it. I will not tell you to use html, either. The only thing I said, when I noticed mails coming html from other people, use it better.
--
and all the things you can do with html are possible with plain text
As can be clearly seen in your quoted text, no, it is not possible. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos, et al -- ...and then Carlos E.R. said... % This is not a commercial mail list, just normal people. So I don't expect to % get mails with totally different parts like you say. I don't expect it, either, but it happens. Sadly, too many people don't really know what they're sending. % % Then, I have never seen a dangerous html email, besides spam in the spam % folder where the text says one thing and the link points to something % different. Javascript is a biggie, and not all HTML ends up in the SPAM folder. % % What does it bring to a mail list like this one? % % Simple things. I can use a table, and I know that it will keep aligned: % % filename % bytes % timestamp % fooo % 0 % today Funny how well that renders in a monospaced font in a plain-text mail ... :-) % ... % % I can use *bold*, _underline_, /italics/ if I see fit. Yep. Got that, too. % % Yes, I can abuse and use glaring colours. Or simply copy paste from the % terminals using the same colours as the terminal: That's the only thing my plain text doesn't do, not least because I don't want it to. So if ever I *need* to see different colors of stuff, yeah, it's time to drag out some more complex markup. % ... % % Even the Linux command line is colourized today. EW! And much harder to read, too. Every time I get into a fresh OS I have to get rid of lots of color settings and, by the way, change from that horrible black background (yay for black on light-tan terminals). Sure, there are cases where coloor-highlighting or -matching might help, but I haven't seen any particular benefit yet. Maybe it's just because I see colors very well (my wife *never* wins the "is that the same color?" argument), but that extra stuff is just waste. % % It's time we move on on email, too :-) [snip] Well, I don't at all agree, but to each his own :-) HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt
On 2024-01-28 19:22, David T-G wrote:
Carlos, et al --
...and then Carlos E.R. said... % This is not a commercial mail list, just normal people. So I don't expect to % get mails with totally different parts like you say.
I don't expect it, either, but it happens. Sadly, too many people don't really know what they're sending.
No, people simply use good mail clients that will do a good job of it.
% % Then, I have never seen a dangerous html email, besides spam in the spam % folder where the text says one thing and the link points to something % different.
Javascript is a biggie, and not all HTML ends up in the SPAM folder.
Ah, javascript! But that's a different thing. You only need to disable it, or use a client that doesn't run it.
% % What does it bring to a mail list like this one? % % Simple things. I can use a table, and I know that it will keep aligned: % % filename % bytes % timestamp % fooo % 0 % today
Funny how well that renders in a monospaced font in a plain-text mail ... :-)
Exactly, which is why html mail is good for somethings :-) And generating simple tables in plain text by hand is hard.
% ... % % I can use *bold*, _underline_, /italics/ if I see fit.
Yep. Got that, too.
Yeah, I know, with a hack.
% % Yes, I can abuse and use glaring colours. Or simply copy paste from the % terminals using the same colours as the terminal:
That's the only thing my plain text doesn't do, not least because I don't want it to. So if ever I *need* to see different colors of stuff, yeah, it's time to drag out some more complex markup.
% ... % % Even the Linux command line is colourized today.
EW! And much harder to read, too. Every time I get into a fresh OS I have to get rid of lots of color settings and, by the way, change from that horrible black background (yay for black on light-tan terminals).
:-D
Sure, there are cases where coloor-highlighting or -matching might help, but I haven't seen any particular benefit yet. Maybe it's just because I see colors very well (my wife *never* wins the "is that the same color?" argument), but that extra stuff is just waste.
Even old software like vi or emacs can use colours on syntax ;-)
% % It's time we move on on email, too :-) [snip]
Well, I don't at all agree, but to each his own :-)
:-)
HAND
:-D
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos, et al -- ...and then Carlos E. R. said... % On 2024-01-28 19:22, David T-G wrote: % > % > ...and then Carlos E.R. said... % > % This is not a commercial mail list, just normal people. So I don't expect to % > % get mails with totally different parts like you say. % > % > I don't expect it, either, but it happens. Sadly, too many people don't % > really know what they're sending. % % No, people simply use good mail clients that will do a good job of it. In a perfect world, yes (and then some, but let's not digress :-) But the point is that many people DON'T use good email clients. I can't save the world or even a few; I just have to be liberal with what I accept, even as I am strict with what I send, and then make it work for me. % % > % Then, I have never seen a dangerous html email, besides spam in the spam % > % folder where the text says one thing and the link points to something % > % different. % > % > Javascript is a biggie, and not all HTML ends up in the SPAM folder. % % Ah, javascript! But that's a different thing. You only need to disable it, % or use a client that doesn't run it. But WHY should I have to go to the bother of doing so in the first place? I already use a client that doesn't run it; I use only text email. But why on earth would I want to have to go to the effort of making myself less secure and then trying to run around and get more secure? IMHO, the only real value of HTML for email is better inline display of pictures, quite possibly from a remote URL rather than having attached them. Conversely, however, calling a remote URL can lead to exactly the sort of exposure I want to avoid, so like many I turn off displaying pictures. Sooooo ... Now we have a markup mechanism which is unsafe, for which I have to explicitly disable certain pieces that are the only possible justifications for it in the first place, and which just makes everything ugly because nobody has the refined and perfect taste that I do (or maybe just likes too dang many colors on a horrible background), and all at a cost of more bits as well. [Yeah, yeah, I know the whole world has gigabit Internet access in even the oldest run-down shack and we Just Don't Care About Size, but it so happens that I'm typing this while connected through a phone hotspot and I can actually watch the keyboard buffer empty in bursts. I feel like it's 1993 again and I'm reading at modem speed.] So, no, I am still not convinced that HTML mail is a good thing, and especially not on a list like this. If you want to show a pretty picture, then use susepaste. % % > % What does it bring to a mail list like this one? % > % % > % Simple things. I can use a table, and I know that it will keep aligned: % > % % > % filename % > % bytes % > % timestamp % > % fooo % > % 0 % > % today % > % > Funny how well that renders in a monospaced font in a plain-text mail ... :-) % % Exactly, which is why html mail is good for somethings :-) Wait, what? Since you don't need HTML for tables, how do you suddenly jump to "html mail is good for somethings"? % % And generating simple tables in plain text by hand is hard. Simple tables? Nah. Complex tables? Yeah, I'll giv eyou that. Frankly, what I'd do is use a markup language to generate the table exactly as I like it and then paste the result as plain text for simplicity. But YMMV, and TMTOWTDT, and there's no accounting for taste. % % > % I can use *bold*, _underline_, /italics/ if I see fit. % > % > Yep. Got that, too. % % Yeah, I know, with a hack. *snort* Like HTML mail is a hack, you mean? :-) % ... % % > Sure, there are cases where coloor-highlighting or -matching might help, % > but I haven't seen any particular benefit yet. Maybe it's just because I % > see colors very well (my wife *never* wins the "is that the same color?" % > argument), but that extra stuff is just waste. % % Even old software like vi or emacs can use colours on syntax ;-) Just because you can doesn't mean you should. And, yes, I'll colorize vim on rare occasion -- and I'll even use vim to write HTML :-) HAND :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2024-01-29 at 11:44 -0000, David T-G wrote:
Carlos, et al --
...and then Carlos E. R. said... % On 2024-01-28 19:22, David T-G wrote: % > % > ...and then Carlos E.R. said... % > % This is not a commercial mail list, just normal people. So I don't expect to % > % get mails with totally different parts like you say. % > % > I don't expect it, either, but it happens. Sadly, too many people don't % > really know what they're sending. % % No, people simply use good mail clients that will do a good job of it.
In a perfect world, yes (and then some, but let's not digress :-) But the point is that many people DON'T use good email clients. I can't save the world or even a few; I just have to be liberal with what I accept, even as I am strict with what I send, and then make it work for me.
I'm liberal: I accept html email :-D
% % > % Then, I have never seen a dangerous html email, besides spam in the spam % > % folder where the text says one thing and the link points to something % > % different. % > % > Javascript is a biggie, and not all HTML ends up in the SPAM folder. % % Ah, javascript! But that's a different thing. You only need to disable it, % or use a client that doesn't run it.
But WHY should I have to go to the bother of doing so in the first place? I already use a client that doesn't run it; I use only text email. But why on earth would I want to have to go to the effort of making myself less secure and then trying to run around and get more secure?
I don't know of a mail client that renders javascript by default, in Linux. I'm not even sure if it can be turned on manually in Thunderbird. Because it is javascript what is dangerous, not html per se, AFAIK. +++·························· <https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1117299> How to enable Javascript in T'Bird 45b2 4/6/2016 Javascript is disabled for mail, and you cannot turn it on. Javascript is enabled for RSS feeds. ··························++- (it is also enabled for Oauth2 logins) So we are safe in that respect. Javascript is disabled.
IMHO, the only real value of HTML for email is better inline display of pictures, quite possibly from a remote URL rather than having attached them. Conversely, however, calling a remote URL can lead to exactly the sort of exposure I want to avoid, so like many I turn off displaying pictures.
Thunderbird by default doesn't load remote content, so there is nothing to do. Anyaway, it is just as safe or dangerous as displaying that content in a web browser, and we do that every day as a matter of routine.
Sooooo ... Now we have a markup mechanism which is unsafe, for which I have to explicitly disable certain pieces that are the only possible justifications for it in the first place, and which just makes everything ugly because nobody has the refined and perfect taste that I do (or maybe just likes too dang many colors on a horrible background), and all at a cost of more bits as well. [Yeah, yeah, I know the whole world has gigabit Internet access in even the oldest run-down shack and we Just Don't Care About Size, but it so happens that I'm typing this while connected through a phone hotspot and I can actually watch the keyboard buffer empty in bursts. I feel like it's 1993 again and I'm reading at modem speed.]
Pictures in context is one of the advantages, and it is useful. I use it elsewhere. Besides, as I explained before, moderate use of formatting capabilities in text is good. Has been used in books for centuries. I don't see any valid reason why we should be old farts and renounce to it in email.
So, no, I am still not convinced that HTML mail is a good thing, and especially not on a list like this. If you want to show a pretty picture, then use susepaste.
Well, html posts are allowed in the lists now.
% % > % What does it bring to a mail list like this one? % > % % > % Simple things. I can use a table, and I know that it will keep aligned: % > % % > % filename % > % bytes % > % timestamp % > % fooo % > % 0 % > % today % > % > Funny how well that renders in a monospaced font in a plain-text mail ... :-) % % Exactly, which is why html mail is good for somethings :-)
Wait, what? Since you don't need HTML for tables, how do you suddenly jump to "html mail is good for somethings"?
I need html for composing tables.
% % And generating simple tables in plain text by hand is hard.
Simple tables? Nah. Complex tables? Yeah, I'll giv eyou that. Frankly, what I'd do is use a markup language to generate the table exactly as I like it and then paste the result as plain text for simplicity. But YMMV, and TMTOWTDT, and there's no accounting for taste.
% % > % I can use *bold*, _underline_, /italics/ if I see fit. % > % > Yep. Got that, too. % % Yeah, I know, with a hack.
*snort* Like HTML mail is a hack, you mean? :-)
Not really.
% ... % % > Sure, there are cases where coloor-highlighting or -matching might help, % > but I haven't seen any particular benefit yet. Maybe it's just because I % > see colors very well (my wife *never* wins the "is that the same color?" % > argument), but that extra stuff is just waste. % % Even old software like vi or emacs can use colours on syntax ;-)
Just because you can doesn't mean you should. And, yes, I'll colorize vim on rare occasion -- and I'll even use vim to write HTML :-)
If I can, I see no valid reason to keep to tradition and not use colour. <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw> Fiddler on the roof - Tradition ( with subtitles ) :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZbeaNxwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVWBMAn0WbwLqu5Ak627Pm7+/c gXsDh6viAJ0eh8fGKP/1u5tzm6Szz4b6O9XdSg== =qEyO -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 28.01.2024 20:52, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-01-28 17:34, Dave Howorth wrote: ...
But there is the possibility of confusion (at its most polite) with HTML, since it is a separate part. I frequently receive mailshots from companies where the text and html parts say something completely different. I do not want to experience some malicious person doing that on a mailing list! And what does/can HTML bring extra to an email? This is not a commercial mail list, just normal people. So I don't expect to get mails with totally different parts like you say.
HTML mails come with two alternative parts - plain text and HTML. It is up to the sender MUA how to compose them and to the recipient MUA which part to display. It has absolutely nothing to do with being commercial or not. Actually, several online shops here send advertisements with two parts but plain text part is empty. I never felt like wasting time to analyze HTML part in these messages whether they can even be sensibly represented as plain text.
Then, I have never seen a dangerous html email, besides spam in the spam folder where the text says one thing and the link points to something different.
Good. You proved mails pose no threats. "I personally have not seen it" is the ultimate proof of anything. For some reasons my customers are not satisfied with the answer "I cannot reproduce it so you have no problems, I will close your ticket".
On 2024-01-28 19:26, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On 28.01.2024 20:52, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-01-28 17:34, Dave Howorth wrote: ...
But there is the possibility of confusion (at its most polite) with HTML, since it is a separate part. I frequently receive mailshots from companies where the text and html parts say something completely different. I do not want to experience some malicious person doing that on a mailing list! And what does/can HTML bring extra to an email? This is not a commercial mail list, just normal people. So I don't expect to get mails with totally different parts like you say.
HTML mails come with two alternative parts - plain text and HTML. It is up to the sender MUA how to compose them and to the recipient MUA which part to display. It has absolutely nothing to do with being commercial or not. Actually, several online shops here send advertisements with two parts but plain text part is empty. I never felt like wasting time to analyze HTML part in these messages whether they can even be sensibly represented as plain text.
Yes, I have seen email with empty plain text parts, but if seen here, that would be worthy of a bugzilla report against the Linux MUA that generated it ;-)
Then, I have never seen a dangerous html email, besides spam in the spam folder where the text says one thing and the link points to something different.
Good. You proved mails pose no threats. "I personally have not seen it" is the ultimate proof of anything.
When over the decades people in mail lists say that html is dangerous, I usually ask for examples. Most of them are not capable to produce them. There is javascript, but the mail client should not render it. If there is dangerous email and Thunderbird does something naughty, that would be a bug to report. There is phising, of course, and all kind of evil posts. Many of them in plain text.
For some reasons my customers are not satisfied with the answer "I cannot reproduce it so you have no problems, I will close your ticket".
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 18:52:41 +0100 "Carlos E.R." <robin.listas@gmx.es> wrote:
On 2024-01-28 17:34, Dave Howorth wrote: What does it bring to a mail list like this one?
Simple things. I can use a table, and I know that it will keep aligned:
filename bytes timestamp fooo 0 today
Hmm, if I look at the plain text part I see: filename bytes timestamp fooo 0 today (the leading spaces are tab characters, BTW) Whilst if I look at the HTML part I see: filename bytes timestamp fooo 0 today which doesn't look much like a table to me although I agree it is aligned. Every word at the start of a line :)
I can have easy to do lists of things:
1. one 2. two 3. three
I can put a bunch of command line text where it is easy to see that it is command line text and easy to read, like:
Again, plain text version: is command line text and easy to read, like: Telcontar:~ # update-alternatives --config default-displaymanager There are 5 choices for the alternative default-displaymanager (providing /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/default-displaymana Selection Path Priority Status ------------------------------------------------------------ * 0 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 auto mode 1 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console 5 manual mode And HTML version: command line text and easy to read, like:Telcontar:~ # update-alternatives --config default-displaymanager
There are 5 choices for the alternative default-displaymanager (providing /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/default-displaymana
Selection Path Priority Status ------------------------------------------------------------ * 0 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 auto mode 1 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console 5 manual mode 2 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/gdm 25 manual mode
I know which is easier to read.
I can use *bold*, _underline_, /italics/ if I see fit.
Well you can use them but I won't see them, so why bother?
Yes, I can abuse and use glaring colours. Or simply copy paste from the terminals using the same colours as the terminal:
It's all black and white because, I repeat "*I* choose the display font etc, not the sender". So again, why bother?
When the colour printer came, did you keep printing your letters in a thousand shades of grey?
I still do print them in black and white. Legibility is key.
It's time we move on on email, too :-)
When the standard changes, sure.
On 2024-01-28 21:36, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 18:52:41 +0100 "Carlos E.R." <> wrote:
On 2024-01-28 17:34, Dave Howorth wrote: What does it bring to a mail list like this one?
Simple things. I can use a table, and I know that it will keep aligned:
filename bytes timestamp fooo 0 today
Hmm, if I look at the plain text part I see:
filename bytes timestamp fooo 0 today
Means Thunderbird doesn't create a fully correct text part.
(the leading spaces are tab characters, BTW) Whilst if I look at the HTML part I see:
filename bytes timestamp fooo 0 today
which doesn't look much like a table to me although I agree it is aligned. Every word at the start of a line :)
Means you don't have a mail client capable of rendering html correctly.
I can have easy to do lists of things:
1. one 2. two 3. three
I can put a bunch of command line text where it is easy to see that it is command line text and easy to read, like:
Again, plain text version:
Certainly. The advantage is when composing: the editor is aware of the indented list format, and flows the text correctly. Other plain text editors I have or plain text mail programs do not handle it. As for the CLI paste, you see the advantage when you are using Thunderbird. The visual appearance is very nice. It is easy at a glance to see what is text I typed and what is CLI text. What are commands and what comments. Also, when I try to paste the same thing in a plain text email using the same Thunderbird, it enforces line wrap. If you read using a lesser mail client, it breaks :-p ...
I know which is easier to read.
I can use *bold*, _underline_, /italics/ if I see fit.
Well you can use them but I won't see them, so why bother?
Change mail client :-p Even pure text clients as Alpine render that line correctly (almost) in a terminal :-)
Yes, I can abuse and use glaring colours. Or simply copy paste from the terminals using the same colours as the terminal:
It's all black and white because, I repeat "*I* choose the display font etc, not the sender". So again, why bother?
Well, you miss the fun. Your choice :-p
When the colour printer came, did you keep printing your letters in a thousand shades of grey?
I still do print them in black and white. Legibility is key.
It's time we move on on email, too :-)
When the standard changes, sure.
It did. :-)) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [01-28-24 17:35]:
On 2024-01-28 21:36, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 18:52:41 +0100 "Carlos E.R." <> wrote:
On 2024-01-28 17:34, Dave Howorth wrote: What does it bring to a mail list like this one?
Simple things. I can use a table, and I know that it will keep aligned:
filename bytes timestamp fooo 0 today
Hmm, if I look at the plain text part I see:
filename bytes timestamp fooo 0 today
Means Thunderbird doesn't create a fully correct text part.
(the leading spaces are tab characters, BTW) Whilst if I look at the HTML part I see:
filename bytes timestamp fooo 0 today
which doesn't look much like a table to me although I agree it is aligned. Every word at the start of a line :)
Means you don't have a mail client capable of rendering html correctly.
no, it means html is not being displayed. email client is displaying text! as it should. ...
It's time we move on on email, too :-)
When the standard changes, sure.
It did. :-))
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
no, it has not -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
_Tables_ On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 23:33:23 +0100, "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 2024-01-28 21:36, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 18:52:41 +0100 "Carlos E.R." <> wrote:
On 2024-01-28 17:34, Dave Howorth wrote: What does it bring to a mail list like this one?
Simple things. I can use a table, and I know that it will keep aligned: [...]
Hmm, if I look at the plain text part I see:
filename bytes timestamp fooo 0 today
Means Thunderbird doesn't create a fully correct text part.
(the leading spaces are tab characters, BTW) [...]
If you do want to create a plain text table, you don't need to manually align it. Using your example, converted from the plain text part 'plain_text' of your original email to 'tabs.tbl', the 'column' command with '-t' option will align the columns using spaces: $ thunderbird_plain_to_tab_table() { # For each input line, a leading tab indicates the next column # of the same row. A non-tabbed line is a new row. local Tab=$'\t' sed -e $'s/\r$//' "$@" \ |sed -e ' :next $b N s/\n'"$Tab/$Tab/"' t next P D ' } $ sed -e $'s/\r$//' -e '/^filename$/,/today$/!d' plain_text \ |thunderbird_plain_to_tab_table > tabs.tbl $ # from tab-separated fields $ column -t -s $'\t' tabs.tbl filename bytes timestamp fooo 0 today $ # from whitespace-separated, unaligned fields $ sed -e $'s/\t/ /g' tabs.tbl |column -t filename bytes timestamp fooo 0 today -- Robert Webb
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2024-01-29 a las 07:44 -0000, Robert Webb escribió: Using a pure plain text client this time.
_Tables_ On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 23:33:23 +0100, "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
Hmm, if I look at the plain text part I see:
filename bytes timestamp fooo 0 today
Means Thunderbird doesn't create a fully correct text part.
(the leading spaces are tab characters, BTW) [...]
If you do want to create a plain text table, you don't need to manually align it. Using your example, converted from the plain text part 'plain_text' of your original email to 'tabs.tbl', the 'column' command with '-t' option will align the columns using spaces:
$ thunderbird_plain_to_tab_table() { # For each input line, a leading tab indicates the next column # of the same row. A non-tabbed line is a new row.
Hum. Too Cumbersome :-) This is the correct table using tabs: filename bytes timestamp fooo 0 today I already had to use two tabs on the zero to align it. Or with spaces: filename bytes timestamp fooo 0 today This time it is easy. If I am creating a real world table with a proper editor, the editor would know about the columns and flow the text inside the "virtual cell". I have not seen such an editor (plain text editor) that does that in many years. I think wordstar could do that. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, sollicitudin euismod purus. consectetur adipiscing elit. Maecenas vel feugiat neque. Integer sodales porttitor Cras auctor imperdiet sapien, nulla, eu viverra neque. vel elementum nibh ornare a. Nullam libero tellus, porta Sed vitae ultrices ante. placerat ante nec, The html composer in Thunderbird gives me back that lost feature in a trivial manner. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZbeRuBwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVxy4AoIUsH8cmKxpKzQcMyfQf b5Lx+zVaAJ9+pnfH7izMmbC7U2EJZ/hnCdojfw== =J6PX -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 2024-01-29 13:05, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2024-01-29 05:53, Carlos E. R. wrote:
<snip> Did I miss something? Did volume 2 of /Die unendliche Geschichte/ get
published while I wasn't looking?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorem_ipsum> -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2024-01-29 06:31, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 13:05, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2024-01-29 05:53, Carlos E. R. wrote:
<snip> Did I miss something? Did volume 2 of /Die unendliche Geschichte/ get
published while I wasn't looking?
Emphasis on the phrase "without meaningful content". Quando finem facis?
On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 12:53:28 +0100 (CET) "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, sollicitudin euismod purus. consectetur adipiscing elit. Maecenas vel feugiat neque. Integer sodales porttitor Cras auctor imperdiet sapien, nulla, eu viverra neque. vel elementum nibh ornare a. Nullam libero tellus, porta Sed vitae ultrices ante. placerat ante nec,
Can you show a single example where this 'feature' would be useful in an email on this list? Where we've had a problem because it hasn't been used?
On 2024-01-29 13:22, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 12:53:28 +0100 (CET) "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, sollicitudin euismod purus. consectetur adipiscing elit. Maecenas vel feugiat neque. Integer sodales porttitor Cras auctor imperdiet sapien, nulla, eu viverra neque. vel elementum nibh ornare a. Nullam libero tellus, porta Sed vitae ultrices ante. placerat ante nec,
Can you show a single example where this 'feature' would be useful in an email on this list? Where we've had a problem because it hasn't been used?
I don't remember right now, but yes, I have needed it this past month. Man pages use them, for instance, and they break when resizing terminals, because they are using plain text. When posting an excerpt from a site that contains the information in table form. Like: https://en.opensuse.org/HCL:Acer_laptops -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:41:58 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
Man pages use them, for instance, and they break when resizing terminals, because they are using plain text.
??? what's this to do with mailing lists?
When posting an excerpt from a site that contains the information in table form. Like:
So just post the link, as you did :)
On 2024-01-29 21:27, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:41:58 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
We said not to continue the discussion here.
Man pages use them, for instance, and they break when resizing terminals, because they are using plain text.
??? what's this to do with mailing lists?
When posting an excerpt from a site that contains the information in table form. Like:
So just post the link, as you did :)
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Dave Howorth composed on 2024-01-28 16:34 (UTC):
I do not want to experience some malicious person doing that on a mailing list! And what does/can HTML bring extra to an email?
1-typically triples the size of its content 2-can enable malicious content 3-enables imposing mousetype on the reader 4-complicates string search directly through raw mail directories -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024, 19:36:15 +0100, Felix Miata wrote:
Dave Howorth composed on 2024-01-28 16:34 (UTC):
I do not want to experience some malicious person doing that on a mailing list! And what does/can HTML bring extra to an email?
1-typically triples the size of its content 2-can enable malicious content 3-enables imposing mousetype on the reader 4-complicates string search directly through raw mail directories
To be honest, Felix's summary really catches everything. This is a technically focused mailing list which doesn't need any graphics or typewriting fancies, can't we really not restrict the list servers to remove any HTML parts of an e-mail? It's technically possible... and helps to reduce ... I don't go any further as it might become really ugly then - at least in so called social media environments!
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science.
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata
Cheers. l8er manfred
On 2024-01-28 21:08, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024, 19:36:15 +0100, Felix Miata wrote:
Dave Howorth composed on 2024-01-28 16:34 (UTC):
I do not want to experience some malicious person doing that on a mailing list! And what does/can HTML bring extra to an email?
1-typically triples the size of its content 2-can enable malicious content 3-enables imposing mousetype on the reader 4-complicates string search directly through raw mail directories
To be honest, Felix's summary really catches everything. This is a technically focused mailing list which doesn't need any graphics or typewriting fancies, can't we really not restrict the list servers to remove any HTML parts of an e-mail? It's technically possible... and helps to reduce ... I don't go any further as it might become really ugly then - at least in so called social media environments!
The mail servers have been updated to allow html mails, after decades of not allowing it. Welcome change :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 1/29/24 09:05, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2024-01-28 21:08, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024, 19:36:15 +0100, Felix Miata wrote:
Dave Howorth composed on 2024-01-28 16:34 (UTC):
I do not want to experience some malicious person doing that on a mailing list! And what does/can HTML bring extra to an email?
1-typically triples the size of its content 2-can enable malicious content 3-enables imposing mousetype on the reader 4-complicates string search directly through raw mail directories
To be honest, Felix's summary really catches everything. This is a technically focused mailing list which doesn't need any graphics or typewriting fancies, can't we really not restrict the list servers to remove any HTML parts of an e-mail? It's technically possible... and helps to reduce ... I don't go any further as it might become really ugly then - at least in so called social media environments!
The mail servers have been updated to allow html mails, after decades of not allowing it. Welcome change :-)
Yes now the archives handle html email gracefully and given the blocking was causing newer users and contributors issues it is now allowed on openSUSE Lists. Beyond that, this topic is rather off topic for the support list, please continue it on a more appropriate list if you feel the need for further discussion. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 8:14 AM Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> wrote:
Yes now the archives handle html email gracefully and given the blocking was causing newer users and contributors issues it is now allowed on openSUSE Lists.
Beyond that, this topic is rather off topic for the support list, please continue it on a more appropriate list if you feel the need for further discussion.
-- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net
Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
<!DOCTYPE html> <html> <body> <p>I agree! ;-)</p> </body> </html> -- Tony Walker <tony.walker.iu@gmail.com> PGP Key @ https://tonywalker1.github.io/ or https://keys.openpgp.org/ 9F46 D66D FF6C 182D A5AC 11E1 8559 98D1 7543 319C
On maandag 29 januari 2024 14:14:13 CET Simon Lees wrote:
Beyond that, this topic is rather off topic for the support list, please continue it on a more appropriate list if you feel the need for further discussion. Agreed, please take this to users@ or some other off-topic list.
-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board openSUSE Forums Team
Thanks for telling me this. I will try to do his now. On 01-28-2024 05:11AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-01-28 11:19, -pj wrote:
Side tracking.
# update-alternatives --config default-displaymanager
There are 3 choices for the alternative default-displaymanager (providing /usr/lib/X11/displaym anagers/default-displaymanager).
Selection Path Priority Status ------------------------------------------------------------ * 0 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 auto mode 1 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console 5 manual mode 2 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 manual mode 3 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm 10 manual mode
I see you are posting with Thunderbird in html. That's Ok with me, but please, improve it :-) — the proportional font makes command output weird.
When you post command output, do so using paragraph format "preformat", which uses a monospace font and disables line wrap. Like this:
Selection Path Priority Status ------------------------------------------------------------ * 0 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 auto mode 1 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console 5 manual mode 2 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 manual mode 3 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm 10 manual mode
You can also indent it once, looks nicer ;-)
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2024-01-28 01:17, -pj wrote:
user@localhost:~> systemctl status sddm.service ○ sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; disabled; preset: disabled) Active: inactive (dead) Docs: man:sddm(1) man:sddm.conf(5) user@localhost:~>
How did SDDM become disabled? Could this be the source of the problem?
Do *not* enable this service, or sddm will be started every time the computer boots. This is not the behaviour you want with a graphical login manager. Since the service is disabled, it can only be started manually. This is done in graphical.target, which is called only when you are booting into graphical desktop (formerly called runlevel 5). I am going to go out on a limb here, and guess that the service is currently inactive because you are now logged in.
On 01-28-2024 04:13AM, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2024-01-28 01:17, -pj wrote:
user@localhost:~> systemctl status sddm.service ○ sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; disabled; preset: disabled) Active: inactive (dead) Docs: man:sddm(1) man:sddm.conf(5) user@localhost:~>
How did SDDM become disabled? Could this be the source of the problem?
Do *not* enable this service, or sddm will be started every time the computer boots. This is not the behaviour you want with a graphical login manager. Since the service is disabled, it can only be started manually. This is done in graphical.target, which is called only when you are booting into graphical desktop (formerly called runlevel 5). I am going to go out on a limb here, and guess that the service is currently inactive because you are now logged in. Noted and thanks.
-pj composed on 2024-01-28 04:21 (UTC-0600):
On 01-28-2024 04:13AM, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
Do *not* enable this service, or sddm will be started every time the computer boots. This is not the behaviour you want with a graphical login manager. Since the service is disabled, it can only be started manually. This is done in graphical.target, which is called only when you are booting into graphical desktop (formerly called runlevel 5). I am going to go out on a limb here, and guess that the service is currently inactive because you are now logged in.
Noted and thanks.
XDM has two roles in openSUSE: 1: It /can/ function as a true, zero frills login manager/greeter. 2: It usually plays the role of a chainloader, starting whatever the configured DM is, such as GDM, LightDM, or SDDM. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
Should I consider filing a bug report with KDE? On 01-28-2024 04:59AM, Felix Miata wrote:
-pj composed on 2024-01-28 04:21 (UTC-0600):
On 01-28-2024 04:13AM, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
Do *not* enable this service, or sddm will be started every time the computer boots. This is not the behaviour you want with a graphical login manager. Since the service is disabled, it can only be started manually. This is done in graphical.target, which is called only when you are booting into graphical desktop (formerly called runlevel 5). I am going to go out on a limb here, and guess that the service is currently inactive because you are now logged in. Noted and thanks. XDM has two roles in openSUSE:
1: It /can/ function as a true, zero frills login manager/greeter. I saw XDM in action when I enabled it yes (zero frills). I have since reverted back to *0 /usr/lib/X11/playmanager/sddm auto mode
2: It usually plays the role of a chainloader, starting whatever the configured DM is, such as GDM, LightDM, or SDDM.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I forgot to hit send, it seems. El 2024-01-28 a las 01:04 -0600, -pj escribió:
On 01-28-2024 12:43AM, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On 28.01.2024 09:20, -pj wrote:
Login is displayed before any user desktop environment is loaded, so you need to tell what display manager you are using.
Thanks for this info, I am using SDDM I think. 'sudo update-alternatives --list default-displaymanager'
/usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console
/usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm
/usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm
That command is not displaying the human expected info. See: Telcontar:~ # update-alternatives --config default-displaymanager There are 5 choices for the alternative default-displaymanager (providing /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/default-displaymanager). Selection Path Priority Status - ------------------------------------------------------------ * 0 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 auto mode 1 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console 5 manual mode 2 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/gdm 25 manual mode 3 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/lightdm 15 manual mode 4 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 manual mode 5 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm 10 manual mode Press <enter> to keep the current choice[*], or type selection number: Telcontar:~ # update-alternatives --list default-displaymanager /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/gdm /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/lightdm /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm Telcontar:~ # - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZbbTjBwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVGCoAmQGeiyfmqrlGmvQum9pq E/6Y6yKHAKCI2QpKsRnpd0OaoZdztj8WGo69KQ== =BIVP -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Is this good expected human readable info below? I've adjusted the terminal hostname and cursor colors here on this machine. How can I remove that easily in Thunderbird composed messages once pasted into reply? Press <enter> to keep the current choice[*], or type selection number: ^C localhost:~ #update-alternatives --list default-displaymanager /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm localhost:~ #update-alternatives --config default-displaymanager There are 3 choices for the alternative default-displaymanager (providing /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers /default- displaymanager). Selection Path Priority Status ------------------------------------------------------------ * 0 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 auto mode 1 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console 5 manual mode 2 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 manual mode 3 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm 10 manual mode Press <enter> to keep the current choice[*], or type selection number: On 01-28-2024 04:22PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I forgot to hit send, it seems.
El 2024-01-28 a las 01:04 -0600, -pj escribió:
On 01-28-2024 12:43AM, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On 28.01.2024 09:20, -pj wrote:
Login is displayed before any user desktop environment is loaded, so you need to tell what display manager you are using.
Thanks for this info, I am using SDDM I think. 'sudo update-alternatives --list default-displaymanager'
/usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console
/usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm
/usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm
That command is not displaying the human expected info. See:
Telcontar:~ # update-alternatives --config default-displaymanager There are 5 choices for the alternative default-displaymanager (providing /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/default-displaymanager).
Selection Path Priority Status ------------------------------------------------------------ * 0 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 auto mode 1 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console 5 manual mode 2 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/gdm 25 manual mode 3 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/lightdm 15 manual mode 4 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 manual mode 5 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm 10 manual mode
Press <enter> to keep the current choice[*], or type selection number: Telcontar:~ # update-alternatives --list default-displaymanager /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/gdm /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/lightdm /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm Telcontar:~ #
-- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2024-01-29 00:05, -pj wrote:
Is this good expected human readable info below?
:-D I meant that when a human issues the command "update-alternatives --list default-displaymanager", we expect to be told which one is the active one, but no. So instead we have to use "update-alternatives --config default-displaymanager", which does tell us, albeit expecting an input from us to change it.
I've adjusted the terminal hostname and cursor colors here on this machine. How can I remove that easily in Thunderbird composed messages once pasted into reply?
Hum. When I paste from the terminal in XFCE, there are two "copy" commands or versions: one copies plain text, the other copies html. The second is the one that includes the colour information. Maybe KDE includes it always. To remove the colour in Thunderbird, you can select the paragraph, then menu "format", remove styles. Or colour, and choose a colour (black). The first one, as you can see, destroys the format, so you have to select again "preformat". Me, I would leave it in red.
Press <enter> to keep the current choice[*], or type selection number: ^C localhost:~ # update-alternatives --list default-displaymanager /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm localhost:~ #update-alternatives --config default-displaymanager There are 3 choices for the alternative default-displaymanager (providing /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers /default- displaymanager).
Selection Path Priority Status ------------------------------------------------------------ * 0 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 auto mode 1 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console 5 manual mode 2 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 manual mode 3 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm 10 manual mode
Press <enter> to keep the current choice[*], or type selection number:
Anyway, as you can see, your system is indeed using sddm. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 01-29-2024 05:31AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 00:05, -pj wrote:
Is this good expected human readable info below?
:-D
I meant that when a human issues the command "update-alternatives --list default-displaymanager", we expect to be told which one is the active one, but no. So instead we have to use "update-alternatives --config default-displaymanager", which does tell us, albeit expecting an input from us to change it.
I've adjusted the terminal hostname and cursor colors here on this machine. How can I remove that easily in Thunderbird composed messages once pasted into reply?
Hum. When I paste from the terminal in XFCE, there are two "copy" commands or versions: one copies plain text, the other copies html. The second is the one that includes the colour information. Maybe KDE includes it always. To remove the colour in Thunderbird, you can select the paragraph, then menu "format", remove styles. Or colour, and choose a colour (black). The first one, as you can see, destroys the format, so you have to select again "preformat".
Me, I would leave it in red.
Press <enter> to keep the current choice[*], or type selection number: ^C localhost:~ # update-alternatives --list default-displaymanager /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm localhost:~ #update-alternatives --config default-displaymanager There are 3 choices for the alternative default-displaymanager (providing /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers /default- displaymanager).
Selection Path Priority Status ------------------------------------------------------------ * 0 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 auto mode 1 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/console 5 manual mode 2 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/sddm 25 manual mode 3 /usr/lib/X11/displaymanagers/xdm 10 manual mode
Press <enter> to keep the current choice[*], or type selection number:
Anyway, as you can see, your system is indeed using sddm.
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
XDM is triggering SDDM I think. Here Using KDE Konsole 23.08.4 once highlighted text is right clicked the context menu shows only 1 option to copy. I pasted this below (without formatting). There are no colors now I believe. Thinkcentre-M57p:/etc> hostnamectl Static hostname: paul-Thinkcentre-M57p Icon name: computer-desktop Chassis: desktop 🖥 Machine ID: d27ebfd1ed87479da329ef76152c4dc3 Boot ID: edbb07bcc79f43b3b6edbf34434b11b5 Operating System: openSUSE Tumbleweed CPE OS Name: cpe:/o:opensuse:tumbleweed:20240126 Kernel: Linux 6.7.1-2-default Architecture: x86-64 Hardware Vendor: Lenovo Hardware Model: ThinkCentre M57p Firmware Version: 2RKT64BUS Firmware Date: Wed 2014-01-08 Firmware Age: 10y 2w 6d Thinkcentre-M57p:/etc> - This below is pasted *with* formatting: - Thinkcentre-M57p:/etc> hostnamectl Static hostname:paul-Thinkcentre-M57p Icon name:computer-desktop Chassis:desktop Machine ID:d27ebfd1ed87479da329ef76152c4dc3 Boot ID:edbb07bcc79f43b3b6edbf34434b11b5 Operating System:openSUSE Tumbleweed CPE OS Name:cpe:/o:opensuse:tumbleweed:20240126 Kernel:Linux 6.7.1-2-default Architecture:x86-64 Hardware Vendor:Lenovo Hardware Model:ThinkCentre M57p Firmware Version:2RKT64BUS Firmware Date:Wed 2014-01-08 Firmware Age:10y 2w 6d Thinkcentre-M57p:/etc> The example above from Konsole shows it's html. So the way to go is *paste without formatting* probably. I do not know when I just looked through Konsole settings for Default 4 (which I am using currently). Why after becoming root the #+hostname is red maybe goes with cursor color or something. So overall, pasting without formatting for me looks like the best, most legible way to go I think.
On 2024-01-29 13:04, -pj wrote:
On 01-29-2024 05:31AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 00:05, -pj wrote:
...
Anyway, as you can see, your system is indeed using sddm.
XDM is triggering SDDM I think. Here Using KDE Konsole 23.08.4 once highlighted text is right clicked the context menu shows only 1 option to copy. I pasted this below (without formatting). There are no colors now I believe.
Right, but font is proportional, and this is not how a terminal prints. The alignment is broken.
Thinkcentre-M57p:/etc> hostnamectl Static hostname: paul-Thinkcentre-M57p Icon name: computer-desktop Chassis: desktop 🖥 Machine ID: d27ebfd1ed87479da329ef76152c4dc3 Boot ID: edbb07bcc79f43b3b6edbf34434b11b5 Operating System: openSUSE Tumbleweed CPE OS Name: cpe:/o:opensuse:tumbleweed:20240126 Kernel: Linux 6.7.1-2-default Architecture: x86-64 Hardware Vendor: Lenovo Hardware Model: ThinkCentre M57p Firmware Version: 2RKT64BUS Firmware Date: Wed 2014-01-08 Firmware Age: 10y 2w 6d Thinkcentre-M57p:/etc>
-
This below is pasted *with* formatting:
I really prefer this. I find it more readable.
-
Thinkcentre-M57p:/etc> hostnamectl Static hostname:paul-Thinkcentre-M57p Icon name:computer-desktop Chassis:desktop Machine ID:d27ebfd1ed87479da329ef76152c4dc3 Boot ID:edbb07bcc79f43b3b6edbf34434b11b5 Operating System:openSUSE Tumbleweed CPE OS Name:cpe:/o:opensuse:tumbleweed:20240126 Kernel:Linux 6.7.1-2-default Architecture:x86-64 Hardware Vendor:Lenovo Hardware Model:ThinkCentre M57p Firmware Version:2RKT64BUS Firmware Date:Wed 2014-01-08 Firmware Age:10y 2w 6d Thinkcentre-M57p:/etc>
The example above from Konsole shows it's html. So the way to go is *paste without formatting* probably. I do not know when I just looked through Konsole settings for Default 4 (which I am using currently). Why after becoming root the #+hostname is red maybe goes with cursor color or something. So overall, pasting without formatting for me looks like the best, most legible way to go I think.
You can paste without formatting, but please tell Thunderbird to format as "preformat". Like this: Thinkcentre-M57p:/etc> hostnamectl Static hostname: paul-Thinkcentre-M57p Icon name: computer-desktop Chassis: desktop Machine ID: d27ebfd1ed87479da329ef76152c4dc3 Boot ID: edbb07bcc79f43b3b6edbf34434b11b5 Operating System: openSUSE Tumbleweed CPE OS Name: cpe:/o:opensuse:tumbleweed:20240126 Kernel: Linux 6.7.1-2-default Architecture: x86-64 Hardware Vendor: Lenovo Hardware Model: ThinkCentre M57p Firmware Version: 2RKT64BUS Firmware Date: Wed 2014-01-08 Firmware Age: 10y 2w 6d Thinkcentre-M57p:/etc> -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 01-29-2024 06:49AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 13:04, -pj wrote:
On 01-29-2024 05:31AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 00:05, -pj wrote:
...
Anyway, as you can see, your system is indeed using sddm.
XDM is triggering SDDM I think. Here Using KDE Konsole 23.08.4 once highlighted text is right clicked the context menu shows only 1 option to copy. I pasted this below (without formatting). There are no colors now I believe.
Right, but font is proportional, and this is not how a terminal prints. The alignment is broken.
Thinkcentre-M57p:/etc> hostnamectl Static hostname: paul-Thinkcentre-M57p Icon name: computer-desktop Chassis: desktop 🖥 Machine ID: d27ebfd1ed87479da329ef76152c4dc3 Boot ID: edbb07bcc79f43b3b6edbf34434b11b5 Operating System: openSUSE Tumbleweed CPE OS Name: cpe:/o:opensuse:tumbleweed:20240126 Kernel: Linux 6.7.1-2-default Architecture: x86-64 Hardware Vendor: Lenovo Hardware Model: ThinkCentre M57p Firmware Version: 2RKT64BUS Firmware Date: Wed 2014-01-08 Firmware Age: 10y 2w 6d Thinkcentre-M57p:/etc>
-
This below is pasted *with* formatting:
I really prefer this. I find it more readable.
-
Thinkcentre-M57p:/etc> hostnamectl Static hostname:paul-Thinkcentre-M57p Icon name:computer-desktop Chassis:desktop Machine ID:d27ebfd1ed87479da329ef76152c4dc3 Boot ID:edbb07bcc79f43b3b6edbf34434b11b5 Operating System:openSUSE Tumbleweed CPE OS Name:cpe:/o:opensuse:tumbleweed:20240126 Kernel:Linux 6.7.1-2-default Architecture:x86-64 Hardware Vendor:Lenovo Hardware Model:ThinkCentre M57p Firmware Version:2RKT64BUS Firmware Date:Wed 2014-01-08 Firmware Age:10y 2w 6d Thinkcentre-M57p:/etc>
The example above from Konsole shows it's html. So the way to go is *paste without formatting* probably. I do not know when I just looked through Konsole settings for Default 4 (which I am using currently). Why after becoming root the #+hostname is red maybe goes with cursor color or something. So overall, pasting without formatting for me looks like the best, most legible way to go I think.
You can paste without formatting, but please tell Thunderbird to format as "preformat". Like this:
Thinkcentre-M57p:/etc> hostnamectl Static hostname: paul-Thinkcentre-M57p Icon name: computer-desktop Chassis: desktop Machine ID: d27ebfd1ed87479da329ef76152c4dc3 Boot ID: edbb07bcc79f43b3b6edbf34434b11b5 Operating System: openSUSE Tumbleweed CPE OS Name: cpe:/o:opensuse:tumbleweed:20240126 Kernel: Linux 6.7.1-2-default Architecture: x86-64 Hardware Vendor: Lenovo Hardware Model: ThinkCentre M57p Firmware Version: 2RKT64BUS Firmware Date: Wed 2014-01-08 Firmware Age: 10y 2w 6d Thinkcentre-M57p:/etc>
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Hi, so is it best to just post a mesa bug report on this at gitlab? Kwin crashes often too after login. Perhaps this is linked to that. Do you have any ideas in your vast knowledge?
On 2024-01-29 19:35, -pj wrote:
On 01-29-2024 06:49AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 13:04, -pj wrote:
On 01-29-2024 05:31AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 00:05, -pj wrote:
Hi, so is it best to just post a mesa bug report on this at gitlab? Kwin crashes often too after login. Perhaps this is linked to that. Do you have any ideas in your vast knowledge?
No, sorry, I don't. I don't see anybody mentioning mesa as the culprit of your problem with kwin? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Looking through similar bugs when trying to file bug report through Crashed Process Viewer (it will not succeed). A similar bug filed with Intel mesa 945 (same hardware). It was passed by KDE and suggested to file at Gitlab under Mesa. Kwin, crashing often during login could maybe be linked to SDDM empty fields and box descriptors. Oh that's right you use XFCE not KDE. -Wishes On 01-29-2024 12:44PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 19:35, -pj wrote:
On 01-29-2024 06:49AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 13:04, -pj wrote:
On 01-29-2024 05:31AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 00:05, -pj wrote:
Hi, so is it best to just post a mesa bug report on this at gitlab? Kwin crashes often too after login. Perhaps this is linked to that. Do you have any ideas in your vast knowledge?
No, sorry, I don't.
I don't see anybody mentioning mesa as the culprit of your problem with kwin?
On Mon, 29 Jan 2024, 19:44:20 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 19:35, -pj wrote:
On 01-29-2024 06:49AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 13:04, -pj wrote:
On 01-29-2024 05:31AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 00:05, -pj wrote:
Hi, so is it best to just post a mesa bug report on this at gitlab? Kwin crashes often too after login. Perhaps this is linked to that. Do you have any ideas in your vast knowledge?
No, sorry, I don't.
I don't see anybody mentioning mesa as the culprit of your problem with kwin?
I don't use SDDM or Plasma, but the description reminds me of a similar issue with a new Mesa version: https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/factory@lists.opensuse.org/message/... HTH, cheers. l8er manfred
On 01-29-2024 12:57PM, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jan 2024, 19:44:20 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 19:35, -pj wrote:
On 01-29-2024 06:49AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 13:04, -pj wrote:
On 01-29-2024 05:31AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 00:05, -pj wrote:
Hi, so is it best to just post a mesa bug report on this at gitlab? Kwin crashes often too after login. Perhaps this is linked to that. Do you have any ideas in your vast knowledge? No, sorry, I don't.
I don't see anybody mentioning mesa as the culprit of your problem with kwin? I don't use SDDM or Plasma, but the description reminds me of a similar issue with a new Mesa version:
https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/factory@lists.opensuse.org/message/...
HTH, cheers.
l8er manfred
Hi, after following the above link suggestions and 6 powercycles with some desktop usage Kwin does not appear to be crashing any longer. The problem with SDDM blank fields and window field descriptors does persist though, (there'-Wishess a flash across the screen when initially keying first character of the password). Thanks for that weblink insight. -Wishes
Hi, where is the SDDM cache located on an openSUSE Tumbleweed, KDE desktop machine? On 01-29-2024 01:59PM, -pj wrote:
On 01-29-2024 12:57PM, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jan 2024, 19:44:20 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 19:35, -pj wrote:
On 01-29-2024 06:49AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 13:04, -pj wrote:
On 01-29-2024 05:31AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2024-01-29 00:05, -pj wrote:
Hi, so is it best to just post a mesa bug report on this at gitlab? Kwin crashes often too after login. Perhaps this is linked to that. Do you have any ideas in your vast knowledge? No, sorry, I don't.
I don't see anybody mentioning mesa as the culprit of your problem with kwin? I don't use SDDM or Plasma, but the description reminds me of a similar issue with a new Mesa version:
https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/factory@lists.opensuse.org/message/...
HTH, cheers.
l8er manfred
Hi, after following the above link suggestions and 6 powercycles with some desktop usage Kwin does not appear to be crashing any longer. The problem with SDDM blank fields and window field descriptors does persist though, (there'-Wishess a flash across the screen when initially keying first character of the password). Thanks for that weblink insight.
-Wishes
That was real stupid of me, /var/lib/sddm as was just thinking to clear sddm cache. I have already done so. -Apologies On 01-29-2024 02:11PM, -pj wrote:
Hi, where is the SDDM cache located on an openSUSE Tumbleweed, KDE desktop machine?
On 01-29-2024 01:59PM, -pj wrote:
On 01-29-2024 12:57PM, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jan 2024, 19:44:20 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 19:35, -pj wrote:
On 01-29-2024 06:49AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 13:04, -pj wrote: > On 01-29-2024 05:31AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >> On 2024-01-29 00:05, -pj wrote:
Hi, so is it best to just post a mesa bug report on this at gitlab? Kwin crashes often too after login. Perhaps this is linked to that. Do you have any ideas in your vast knowledge? No, sorry, I don't.
I don't see anybody mentioning mesa as the culprit of your problem with kwin? I don't use SDDM or Plasma, but the description reminds me of a similar issue with a new Mesa version:
https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/factory@lists.opensuse.org/message/...
HTH, cheers.
l8er manfred
Hi, after following the above link suggestions and 6 powercycles with some desktop usage Kwin does not appear to be crashing any longer. The problem with SDDM blank fields and window field descriptors does persist though, (there'-Wishess a flash across the screen when initially keying first character of the password). Thanks for that weblink insight.
-Wishes
Hi, I filed a bugreport on GitLab with Mesa concerning this situation: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/issues/10523 Have you have ever added any of the following to /etc/profile.d/kwin.sh to help improve kwin performance? export KWIN_COMPOSE=O2ES export KWIN_OPENGL_INTERFACE=EGL export QT_XCB_GL_INTEGRATION=xcb_egl -Thanks On 01-29-2024 02:17PM, -pj wrote:
That was real stupid of me, /var/lib/sddm as was just thinking to clear sddm cache. I have already done so.
-Apologies
On 01-29-2024 02:11PM, -pj wrote:
Hi, where is the SDDM cache located on an openSUSE Tumbleweed, KDE desktop machine?
On 01-29-2024 01:59PM, -pj wrote:
On 01-29-2024 12:57PM, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jan 2024, 19:44:20 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2024-01-29 19:35, -pj wrote:
On 01-29-2024 06:49AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: > On 2024-01-29 13:04, -pj wrote: >> On 01-29-2024 05:31AM, Carlos E.R. wrote: >>> On 2024-01-29 00:05, -pj wrote:
Hi, so is it best to just post a mesa bug report on this at gitlab? Kwin crashes often too after login. Perhaps this is linked to that. Do you have any ideas in your vast knowledge? No, sorry, I don't.
I don't see anybody mentioning mesa as the culprit of your problem with kwin? I don't use SDDM or Plasma, but the description reminds me of a similar issue with a new Mesa version:
https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/factory@lists.opensuse.org/message/...
HTH, cheers.
l8er manfred
Hi, after following the above link suggestions and 6 powercycles with some desktop usage Kwin does not appear to be crashing any longer. The problem with SDDM blank fields and window field descriptors does persist though, (there'-Wishess a flash across the screen when initially keying first character of the password). Thanks for that weblink insight.
-Wishes
participants (15)
-
-pj -
Andrei Borzenkov -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E.R. -
Darryl Gregorash -
Dave Howorth -
David T-G -
Felix Miata -
Knurpht-openSUSE -
Manfred Hollstein -
Patrick Shanahan -
Robert Webb -
Simon Lees -
Stakanov -
Tony Walker