[15.4] mystifying daily activity in journal
# journalctl -b --no-hostname| grep "Feb 25" | egrep -v 'smartd|rpc' Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Do daily mandb update... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Rotate log files... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Update locate database... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: logrotate.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Rotate log files. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: mandb.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Do daily mandb update. Feb 25 00:00:47 su[15089]: (to nobody) root on none Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Created slice User Slice of UID 65534. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting User Runtime Directory /run/user/65534... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished User Runtime Directory /run/user/65534. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting User Manager for UID 65534... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[15148]: pam_unix(systemd-user:session): session opened for user nobody by (uid=0) Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[15151]: /usr/lib/environment.d/99-environment.conf:7: invalid variable name "export GTK_OVERLAY_SCROLLING", ignoring. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[15148]: Queued start job for default target Main User Target. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[15148]: Created slice User Application Slice. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[15148]: Reached target Paths. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[15148]: Reached target Timers. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[15148]: Starting D-Bus User Message Bus Socket... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[15148]: Listening on PipeWire Multimedia System Socket. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[15148]: Listening on Sound System. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[15148]: Listening on D-Bus User Message Bus Socket. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[15148]: Reached target Sockets. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[15148]: Reached target Basic System. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[15148]: Reached target Main User Target. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[15148]: Startup finished in 345ms. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Started User Manager for UID 65534. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Started Session c8 of User nobody. Feb 25 00:00:47 su[15089]: pam_unix(su:session): session opened for user nobody by (uid=0) Feb 25 00:00:47 su[15089]: pam_unix(su:session): session closed for user nobody Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: mlocate.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Update locate database. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: session-c8.scope: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[1]: Stopping User Manager for UID 65534... Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[15148]: Stopped target Main User Target. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[15148]: Stopped target Basic System. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[15148]: Stopped target Paths. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[15148]: Stopped target Sockets. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[15148]: Stopped target Timers. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[15148]: Closed D-Bus User Message Bus Socket. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[15148]: Closed PipeWire Multimedia System Socket. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[15148]: Closed Sound System. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[15148]: Removed slice User Application Slice. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[15148]: Reached target Shutdown. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[15148]: Finished Exit the Session. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[15148]: Reached target Exit the Session. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[1]: user@65534.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[1]: Stopped User Manager for UID 65534. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[1]: Stopping User Runtime Directory /run/user/65534... Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[1]: run-user-65534.mount: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[1]: user-runtime-dir@65534.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[1]: Stopped User Runtime Directory /run/user/65534. Feb 25 00:00:58 systemd[1]: Removed slice User Slice of UID 65534. Feb 25 00:08:50 systemd[1]: Starting Backup /etc/sysconfig directory... Feb 25 00:08:50 systemd[1]: backup-sysconfig.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:08:50 systemd[1]: Finished Backup /etc/sysconfig directory. Feb 25 00:40:02 systemd[1]: Starting Backup RPM database... Feb 25 00:40:02 systemd[1]: backup-rpmdb.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:40:02 systemd[1]: Finished Backup RPM database. It's obvious the above /daily/ repeated process overall has to do with timers, but why the items related to starting and stopping paths, targets, slices and/or user manager that look like they should be only system boot/start, and shutdown/stop activity? Why is there any audio activity related other than to login, boot, shutdown or users' A/V applications? -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On 26.02.2023 09:04, Felix Miata wrote:
It's obvious the above /daily/ repeated process overall has to do with timers, but why the items related to starting and stopping paths, targets, slices and/or user manager that look like they should be only system boot/start, and shutdown/stop activity?
There are also user instances and units.
Why is there any audio activity related other than to login, boot, shutdown or users' A/V applications?
On 2023-02-26 07:04, Felix Miata wrote:
# journalctl -b --no-hostname| grep "Feb 25" | egrep -v 'smartd|rpc' Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Do daily mandb update... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Rotate log files... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Update locate database... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: logrotate.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Rotate log files. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: mandb.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Do daily mandb update.
What is mystifiying to me is that the three tasks start simultaneously, and the three end in zero seconds. The rest is similar to other versions. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 09:25:26 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 2023-02-26 07:04, Felix Miata wrote:
# journalctl -b --no-hostname| grep "Feb 25" | egrep -v 'smartd|rpc' Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Do daily mandb update... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Rotate log files... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Update locate database... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: logrotate.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Rotate log files. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: mandb.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Do daily mandb update.
What is mystifiying to me is that the three tasks start simultaneously, and the three end in zero seconds.
Well if multiple services are started at the same time and are short-running it must be more likely than not, surely? If you had timestamps to milliseconds or more precisely then you might see a difference. And three services start but only two finish, unless I'm misreading something? The one substantial task takes over a second!
The rest is similar to other versions.
On 2023-02-26 12:22, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 09:25:26 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
On 2023-02-26 07:04, Felix Miata wrote:
# journalctl -b --no-hostname| grep "Feb 25" | egrep -v 'smartd|rpc' Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Do daily mandb update... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Rotate log files... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Update locate database... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: logrotate.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Rotate log files. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: mandb.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Do daily mandb update.
What is mystifiying to me is that the three tasks start simultaneously, and the three end in zero seconds.
Well if multiple services are started at the same time and are short-running it must be more likely than not, surely? If you had timestamps to milliseconds or more precisely then you might see a difference.
But I would expect to see: Starting Do daily mandb update... Finished Do daily mandb update. Starting Rotate log files... Finished Rotate log files. Starting Update locate database... Finished Update locate database. The three jobs are demanding on the hard disk.
And three services start but only two finish, unless I'm misreading something? The one substantial task takes over a second!
The rest is similar to other versions.
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:46:42 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 2023-02-26 12:22, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 09:25:26 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
On 2023-02-26 07:04, Felix Miata wrote:
# journalctl -b --no-hostname| grep "Feb 25" | egrep -v 'smartd|rpc' Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Do daily mandb update... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Rotate log files... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Update locate database... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: logrotate.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Rotate log files. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: mandb.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Do daily mandb update.
What is mystifiying to me is that the three tasks start simultaneously, and the three end in zero seconds.
Well if multiple services are started at the same time and are short-running it must be more likely than not, surely? If you had timestamps to milliseconds or more precisely then you might see a difference.
But I would expect to see:
Starting Do daily mandb update... Finished Do daily mandb update. Starting Rotate log files... Finished Rotate log files. Starting Update locate database... Finished Update locate database.
Why, if the jobs are started in parallel?
The three jobs are demanding on the hard disk.
Apparently not particularly except for the locate databse task.
And three services start but only two finish, unless I'm misreading something? The one substantial task takes over a second!
The rest is similar to other versions.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2023-02-26 a las 13:36 -0000, Dave Howorth escribió:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:46:42 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
On 2023-02-26 12:22, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 09:25:26 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
On 2023-02-26 07:04, Felix Miata wrote:
# journalctl -b --no-hostname| grep "Feb 25" | egrep -v 'smartd|rpc' Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Do daily mandb update... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Rotate log files... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Update locate database... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: logrotate.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Rotate log files. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: mandb.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Do daily mandb update.
What is mystifiying to me is that the three tasks start simultaneously, and the three end in zero seconds.
Well if multiple services are started at the same time and are short-running it must be more likely than not, surely? If you had timestamps to milliseconds or more precisely then you might see a difference.
But I would expect to see:
Starting Do daily mandb update... Finished Do daily mandb update. Starting Rotate log files... Finished Rotate log files. Starting Update locate database... Finished Update locate database.
Why, if the jobs are started in parallel?
That's the problem, they shouldn't. Before systemd, they happened in sequence.
The three jobs are demanding on the hard disk.
Apparently not particularly except for the locate databse task.
On my computer, they are very demanding. Specially if the machine is rotating rust. There have been times when these jobs started that the machine became unresponsive for a while. cer@Telcontar:~> grep "Starting Do daily mandb update\|Finished Do daily mandb update" /var/log/messages <3.6> 2023-02-24T00:00:02.256852+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Do daily mandb update. <3.6> 2023-02-25T00:00:01.561800+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Do daily mandb update... <3.6> 2023-02-25T00:00:03.518819+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Do daily mandb update. <3.6> 2023-02-26T00:00:01.766809+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Do daily mandb update... <3.6> 2023-02-26T00:00:03.002047+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Do daily mandb update. cer@Telcontar:~> 2". It is an M2 disk. cer@Telcontar:~> grep "Starting Rotate log files\|Finished Rotate log files" /var/log/messages <3.6> 2023-02-24T00:00:02.272908+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Rotate log files. <3.6> 2023-02-25T00:00:01.563275+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Rotate log files... <3.6> 2023-02-25T00:00:03.519266+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Rotate log files. <3.6> 2023-02-26T00:00:01.768163+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Rotate log files... <3.6> 2023-02-26T00:00:03.940346+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Rotate log files. cer@Telcontar:~> 2". It is an M2 disk. cer@Telcontar:~> grep "Starting Update locate database...\|Finished Update locate database." /var/log/messages <3.6> 2023-02-24T00:00:03.318721+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Update locate database. <3.6> 2023-02-25T00:00:01.564561+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Update locate database... <3.6> 2023-02-25T00:00:29.706891+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Update locate database. <3.6> 2023-02-26T00:00:01.769485+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Update locate database... <3.6> 2023-02-26T00:00:59.713500+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Update locate database. cer@Telcontar:~> Almost one minute, depends on the day. There are 4 rotating rust disks to explore. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCY/uaYBwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfV5Y0AnjV1WLIx2ilVr3V9+Hg4 Qb9eTYyPAJ9096yxzPaOUzFYShay2dbQLr/Oug== =jKvi -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [02-26-23 12:44]:
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El 2023-02-26 a las 13:36 -0000, Dave Howorth escribió:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:46:42 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
On 2023-02-26 12:22, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 09:25:26 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
On 2023-02-26 07:04, Felix Miata wrote:
# journalctl -b --no-hostname| grep "Feb 25" | egrep -v 'smartd|rpc' Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Do daily mandb update... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Rotate log files... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Update locate database... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: logrotate.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Rotate log files. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: mandb.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Do daily mandb update.
What is mystifiying to me is that the three tasks start simultaneously, and the three end in zero seconds.
Well if multiple services are started at the same time and are short-running it must be more likely than not, surely? If you had timestamps to milliseconds or more precisely then you might see a difference.
But I would expect to see:
Starting Do daily mandb update... Finished Do daily mandb update. Starting Rotate log files... Finished Rotate log files. Starting Update locate database... Finished Update locate database.
Why, if the jobs are started in parallel?
That's the problem, they shouldn't. Before systemd, they happened in sequence.
they probably are not if the timestamp is reported to enough decimals. processor speed has increased to the point that more definition is necessary to accurately display processes
The three jobs are demanding on the hard disk.
Apparently not particularly except for the locate databse task.
On my computer, they are very demanding. Specially if the machine is rotating rust. There have been times when these jobs started that the machine became unresponsive for a while.
cer@Telcontar:~> grep "Starting Do daily mandb update\|Finished Do daily mandb update" /var/log/messages <3.6> 2023-02-24T00:00:02.256852+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Do daily mandb update. <3.6> 2023-02-25T00:00:01.561800+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Do daily mandb update... <3.6> 2023-02-25T00:00:03.518819+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Do daily mandb update. <3.6> 2023-02-26T00:00:01.766809+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Do daily mandb update... <3.6> 2023-02-26T00:00:03.002047+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Do daily mandb update. cer@Telcontar:~>
2". It is an M2 disk.
cer@Telcontar:~> grep "Starting Rotate log files\|Finished Rotate log files" /var/log/messages <3.6> 2023-02-24T00:00:02.272908+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Rotate log files. <3.6> 2023-02-25T00:00:01.563275+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Rotate log files... <3.6> 2023-02-25T00:00:03.519266+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Rotate log files. <3.6> 2023-02-26T00:00:01.768163+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Rotate log files... <3.6> 2023-02-26T00:00:03.940346+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Rotate log files. cer@Telcontar:~>
2". It is an M2 disk.
cer@Telcontar:~> grep "Starting Update locate database...\|Finished Update locate database." /var/log/messages <3.6> 2023-02-24T00:00:03.318721+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Update locate database. <3.6> 2023-02-25T00:00:01.564561+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Update locate database... <3.6> 2023-02-25T00:00:29.706891+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Update locate database. <3.6> 2023-02-26T00:00:01.769485+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Update locate database... <3.6> 2023-02-26T00:00:59.713500+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Update locate database. cer@Telcontar:~>
Almost one minute, depends on the day. There are 4 rotating rust disks to explore.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
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-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 18:44:00 +0100 (CET) "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
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El 2023-02-26 a las 13:36 -0000, Dave Howorth escribió:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:46:42 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
On 2023-02-26 12:22, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 09:25:26 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
On 2023-02-26 07:04, Felix Miata wrote:
# journalctl -b --no-hostname| grep "Feb 25" | egrep -v 'smartd|rpc' Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Do daily mandb update... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Rotate log files... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Update locate database... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: logrotate.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Rotate log files. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: mandb.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Do daily mandb update.
What is mystifiying to me is that the three tasks start simultaneously, and the three end in zero seconds.
Well if multiple services are started at the same time and are short-running it must be more likely than not, surely? If you had timestamps to milliseconds or more precisely then you might see a difference.
But I would expect to see:
Starting Do daily mandb update... Finished Do daily mandb update. Starting Rotate log files... Finished Rotate log files. Starting Update locate database... Finished Update locate database.
Why, if the jobs are started in parallel?
That's the problem, they shouldn't. Before systemd, they happened in sequence.
Err, you're complaining because systemd improved things and runs jobs in parallel!!? It's called progress, not problem.
The three jobs are demanding on the hard disk.
Apparently not particularly except for the locate databse task.
On my computer, they are very demanding. Specially if the machine is rotating rust. There have been times when these jobs started that the machine became unresponsive for a while.
OK, but you were not commenting about your computer and we're not discussing that. You were commenting about Felix's situation. I didn't claim the condition would always be true on all machines! [snip]
On 2023-02-26 19:18, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 18:44:00 +0100 (CET) "Carlos E. R." <> wrote: >> El 2023-02-26 a las 13:36 -0000, Dave Howorth escribió:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 12:46:42 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
On 2023-02-26 12:22, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 09:25:26 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
On 2023-02-26 07:04, Felix Miata wrote: > # journalctl -b --no-hostname| grep "Feb 25" | egrep -v > 'smartd|rpc' Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Do daily mandb > update... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Rotate log > files... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Update locate > database... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: logrotate.service: > Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished > Rotate log files. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: mandb.service: > Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished > Do daily mandb update.
What is mystifiying to me is that the three tasks start simultaneously, and the three end in zero seconds.
Well if multiple services are started at the same time and are short-running it must be more likely than not, surely? If you had timestamps to milliseconds or more precisely then you might see a difference.
But I would expect to see:
Starting Do daily mandb update... Finished Do daily mandb update. Starting Rotate log files... Finished Rotate log files. Starting Update locate database... Finished Update locate database.
Why, if the jobs are started in parallel?
That's the problem, they shouldn't. Before systemd, they happened in sequence.
Err, you're complaining because systemd improved things and runs jobs in parallel!!? It's called progress, not problem.
It is not progress nor improvement. When that thing triggers I have to stop using the machine and wait till it finishes, or the brunt of it finishes. Hard disk can hardly parallelize, it is sequential in essence. It is not CPU intensive, it is hard disk intensive.
The three jobs are demanding on the hard disk.
Apparently not particularly except for the locate databse task.
On my computer, they are very demanding. Specially if the machine is rotating rust. There have been times when these jobs started that the machine became unresponsive for a while.
OK, but you were not commenting about your computer and we're not discussing that. You were commenting about Felix's situation. I didn't claim the condition would always be true on all machines!
I simply noticed the situation in Felix output, then came to realize that my machine does the same, and that is why it was so severely impacted when the daily jobs trigger. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. composed on 2023-02-26 19:27 (UTC+0100):
I simply noticed the situation in Felix output, then came to realize that my machine does the same, and that is why it was so severely impacted when the daily jobs trigger.
So customize! Don't fire multiple timed tasks at the same time. Move the times to when you're normally not awake. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On 2023-02-26 19:46, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2023-02-26 19:27 (UTC+0100):
I simply noticed the situation in Felix output, then came to realize that my machine does the same, and that is why it was so severely impacted when the daily jobs trigger.
So customize! Don't fire multiple timed tasks at the same time. Move the times to when you're normally not awake.
That's what I am thinking to do, but I do not know how they are fired. Have not started the investigation. Oh, wait, move to when I am not awake, you say. No, that does not happen, I hibernate the machine when I go to sleep. The logrotate job should happen precisely at 00 hours. Or perhaps not? Maybe it should happen before or way after all timer jobs run. At 23:50, maybe. But do these job run of a single timer, or several? Before systemd, it as a single cron task, and there was a common config file. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023, 20:03:44 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-02-26 19:46, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2023-02-26 19:27 (UTC+0100):
I simply noticed the situation in Felix output, then came to realize that my machine does the same, and that is why it was so severely impacted when the daily jobs trigger.
So customize! Don't fire multiple timed tasks at the same time. Move the times to when you're normally not awake.
That's what I am thinking to do, but I do not know how they are fired. Have not started the investigation.
Oh, wait, move to when I am not awake, you say. No, that does not happen, I hibernate the machine when I go to sleep.
Carlos, we had a long discussion about this when systemd timers should take over the behaviour of cron to run 15 minutes after starting/resuming. The result of that was to install cronie-anacron to enable a similar behaviour. Systemd timers are not usable for machines not running 24 hrs a day.
The logrotate job should happen precisely at 00 hours. Or perhaps not? Maybe it should happen before or way after all timer jobs run. At 23:50, maybe. But do these job run of a single timer, or several? Before systemd, it as a single cron task, and there was a common config file.
See above. Disable the systemd timers and put a suitable script into /etc/cron.daily and you're done. HTH, cheers. l8er manfred
On 2023-02-26 20:44, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023, 20:03:44 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-02-26 19:46, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2023-02-26 19:27 (UTC+0100):
I simply noticed the situation in Felix output, then came to realize that my machine does the same, and that is why it was so severely impacted when the daily jobs trigger.
So customize! Don't fire multiple timed tasks at the same time. Move the times to when you're normally not awake.
That's what I am thinking to do, but I do not know how they are fired. Have not started the investigation.
Oh, wait, move to when I am not awake, you say. No, that does not happen, I hibernate the machine when I go to sleep.
Carlos, we had a long discussion about this when systemd timers should take over the behaviour of cron to run 15 minutes after starting/resuming. The result of that was to install cronie-anacron to enable a similar behaviour. Systemd timers are not usable for machines not running 24 hrs a day.
If I have to go that way, I would simply restore from backup the old suse cron scripts. My machine is certainly not running 24/7, yet the jobs are running. Somewhere they must be configured. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023, 22:58:56 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-02-26 20:44, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023, 20:03:44 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-02-26 19:46, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2023-02-26 19:27 (UTC+0100):
I simply noticed the situation in Felix output, then came to realize that my machine does the same, and that is why it was so severely impacted when the daily jobs trigger.
So customize! Don't fire multiple timed tasks at the same time. Move the times to when you're normally not awake.
That's what I am thinking to do, but I do not know how they are fired. Have not started the investigation.
Oh, wait, move to when I am not awake, you say. No, that does not happen, I hibernate the machine when I go to sleep.
Carlos, we had a long discussion about this when systemd timers should take over the behaviour of cron to run 15 minutes after starting/resuming. The result of that was to install cronie-anacron to enable a similar behaviour. Systemd timers are not usable for machines not running 24 hrs a day.
If I have to go that way, I would simply restore from backup the old suse cron scripts.
My machine is certainly not running 24/7, yet the jobs are running. Somewhere they must be configured.
Sure, it's all documented in systemd.timer(5). Cheers. l8er manfred
On 2023-02-27 09:27, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023, 22:58:56 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-02-26 20:44, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023, 20:03:44 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-02-26 19:46, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2023-02-26 19:27 (UTC+0100):
I simply noticed the situation in Felix output, then came to realize that my machine does the same, and that is why it was so severely impacted when the daily jobs trigger.
So customize! Don't fire multiple timed tasks at the same time. Move the times to when you're normally not awake.
That's what I am thinking to do, but I do not know how they are fired. Have not started the investigation.
Oh, wait, move to when I am not awake, you say. No, that does not happen, I hibernate the machine when I go to sleep.
Carlos, we had a long discussion about this when systemd timers should take over the behaviour of cron to run 15 minutes after starting/resuming. The result of that was to install cronie-anacron to enable a similar behaviour. Systemd timers are not usable for machines not running 24 hrs a day.
If I have to go that way, I would simply restore from backup the old suse cron scripts.
My machine is certainly not running 24/7, yet the jobs are running. Somewhere they must be configured.
Sure, it's all documented in systemd.timer(5).
Of course, that is documented. How *SUSE uses that, is not documented. Same as cron is documented, but how *SUSE used that and built the scripts, was not. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2023-02-27 a las 10:01 +0100, Carlos E. R. escribió:
On 2023-02-27 09:27, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023, 22:58:56 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-02-26 20:44, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023, 20:03:44 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-02-26 19:46, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2023-02-26 19:27 (UTC+0100):
My machine is certainly not running 24/7, yet the jobs are running. Somewhere they must be configured.
Sure, it's all documented in systemd.timer(5).
Of course, that is documented. How *SUSE uses that, is not documented.
Same as cron is documented, but how *SUSE used that and built the scripts, was not.
Ok, playing. Telcontar:~ # systemctl list-timers --all NEXT LEFT LAST PASSED UNIT ACTIVATES Mon 2023-02-27 10:18:44 CET 4min 42s left Mon 2023-02-27 10:13:44 CET 17s ago leafnode-hourly.timer leafnode-hourly.service Mon 2023-02-27 11:00:00 CET 45min left Mon 2023-02-27 10:00:01 CET 14min ago snapper-timeline.timer snapper-timeline.service Mon 2023-02-27 15:25:23 CET 5h 11min left Sat 2023-02-25 15:29:10 CET 1 day 18h ago snapper-cleanup.timer snapper-cleanup.service Mon 2023-02-27 15:30:23 CET 5h 16min left Sat 2023-02-25 15:34:10 CET 1 day 18h ago systemd-tmpfiles-clean.timer systemd-tmpfiles-clean.service Tue 2023-02-28 00:00:00 CET 13h left Mon 2023-02-27 00:00:01 CET 10h ago logrotate.timer logrotate.service Tue 2023-02-28 00:00:00 CET 13h left Mon 2023-02-27 00:00:01 CET 10h ago mandb.timer mandb.service Tue 2023-02-28 00:00:00 CET 13h left Mon 2023-02-27 00:00:01 CET 10h ago mlocate.timer mlocate.service Tue 2023-02-28 00:00:00 CET 13h left Mon 2023-02-27 00:00:01 CET 10h ago seccheck-daily.timer seccheck-daily.service Tue 2023-02-28 00:00:00 CET 13h left Mon 2023-02-27 00:00:01 CET 10h ago storeBackup.timer storeBackup.service Tue 2023-02-28 00:00:00 CET 13h left Mon 2023-02-27 00:00:01 CET 10h ago unbound-anchor.timer unbound-anchor.service Tue 2023-02-28 00:02:34 CET 13h left Mon 2023-02-27 01:35:36 CET 8h ago check-battery.timer check-battery.service Tue 2023-02-28 01:34:58 CET 15h left Mon 2023-02-27 01:38:36 CET 8h ago backup-rpmdb.timer backup-rpmdb.service Tue 2023-02-28 01:56:53 CET 15h left Mon 2023-02-27 00:03:52 CET 10h ago backup-sysconfig.timer backup-sysconfig.service Tue 2023-02-28 04:26:00 CET 18h left Mon 2023-02-27 09:45:49 CET 28min ago leafnode-daily.timer leafnode-daily.service Wed 2023-03-01 00:00:00 CET 1 day 13h left Mon 2023-02-27 00:00:01 CET 10h ago btrfs-balance.timer btrfs-balance.service Wed 2023-03-01 00:00:00 CET 1 day 13h left Wed 2023-02-01 00:00:01 CET 3 weeks 5 days ago btrfs-scrub.timer btrfs-scrub.service Wed 2023-03-01 00:00:00 CET 1 day 13h left Mon 2023-02-27 00:00:01 CET 10h ago btrfs-trim.timer btrfs-trim.service Wed 2023-03-01 00:00:00 CET 1 day 13h left Wed 2023-02-01 00:00:01 CET 3 weeks 5 days ago seccheck-monthly.timer seccheck-monthly.service Mon 2023-03-06 00:00:00 CET 6 days left Mon 2023-02-27 00:00:01 CET 10h ago seccheck-weekly.timer seccheck-weekly.service Mon 2023-03-06 00:00:00 CET 6 days left Mon 2023-02-27 00:00:01 CET 10h ago seccheck-weekly.timer seccheck-weekly.service Mon 2023-03-06 00:16:25 CET 6 days left Mon 2023-02-27 00:31:36 CET 9h ago fstrim.timer fstrim.service n/a n/a n/a n/a mdadm-last-resort@md0.timer mdadm-last-resort@md0.service 21 timers listed. Starting with mlocate.timer Telcontar:~ # systemctl cat mlocate.timer # /usr/lib/systemd/system/mlocate.timer [Unit] Description=Daily locate database update Documentation=man:updatedb [Timer] OnCalendar=daily AccuracySec=12h Unit=mlocate.service Persistent=true [Install] WantedBy=timers.target I can add an override: systemctl edit mlocate.timer and add: [Unit] After=logrotate.service And repeat that for all daily jobs: Tue 2023-02-28 00:00:00 CET 13h left Mon 2023-02-27 00:00:01 CET 10h ago mandb.timer mandb.service Tue 2023-02-28 00:00:00 CET 13h left Mon 2023-02-27 00:00:01 CET 10h ago mlocate.timer mlocate.service Tue 2023-02-28 00:00:00 CET 13h left Mon 2023-02-27 00:00:01 CET 10h ago seccheck-daily.timer seccheck-daily.service Tue 2023-02-28 00:00:00 CET 13h left Mon 2023-02-27 00:00:01 CET 10h ago storeBackup.timer storeBackup.service Tue 2023-02-28 00:00:00 CET 13h left Mon 2023-02-27 00:00:01 CET 10h ago unbound-anchor.timer unbound-anchor.service Tue 2023-02-28 00:02:34 CET 13h left Mon 2023-02-27 01:35:36 CET 8h ago check-battery.timer check-battery.service Tue 2023-02-28 01:34:58 CET 15h left Mon 2023-02-27 01:38:36 CET 8h ago backup-rpmdb.timer backup-rpmdb.service Tue 2023-02-28 01:56:53 CET 15h left Mon 2023-02-27 00:03:52 CET 10h ago backup-sysconfig.timer backup-sysconfig.service Huh, I don't know why the last two are set for two hours later. Or I can wait till tonight and see if the mlocate.timer does run after logrotate.timer - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCY/x29hwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfV5xsAoJYnDiqt9rsVuwjn9cKn A+SjOy0uAJ0Tu/yOLZzOVXs6jIPj0KCwjKAjcw== =DNfw -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2023-02-27 a las 10:25 +0100, Carlos E. R. escribió:
El 2023-02-27 a las 10:01 +0100, Carlos E. R. escribió:
On 2023-02-27 09:27, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023, 22:58:56 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-02-26 20:44, Manfred Hollstein wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023, 20:03:44 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-02-26 19:46, Felix Miata wrote: > Carlos E. R. composed on 2023-02-26 19:27 (UTC+0100):
Ok, playing.
...
Starting with mlocate.timer
Telcontar:~ # systemctl cat mlocate.timer # /usr/lib/systemd/system/mlocate.timer [Unit] Description=Daily locate database update Documentation=man:updatedb
[Timer] OnCalendar=daily AccuracySec=12h Unit=mlocate.service Persistent=true
[Install] WantedBy=timers.target
I can add an override:
systemctl edit mlocate.timer
and add:
[Unit] After=logrotate.service
Did not work. <3.6> 2023-02-28T00:00:01.522051+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Started Timeline of Snapper Snapshots. <3.6> 2023-02-28T00:00:01.522904+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Backup tool... <3.6> 2023-02-28T00:00:01.523865+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting update of the root trust anchor for DNSSEC validation in unbound... <3.6> 2023-02-28T00:00:01.524896+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Do daily mandb update... <3.6> 2023-02-28T00:00:01.526360+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Rotate log files... <3.6> 2023-02-28T00:00:01.527956+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Update locate database... <3.6> 2023-02-28T00:00:01.529119+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Daily seccheck run... Update locate database did not wait for Rotate log files to finish. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCY/1AOBwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVdjcAni8zSnttcfHWtQjNhhfo 7jfRvpE6AJ9uwecMcQnUV75s3oGKf5kqvHXmZg== =ncts -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 28.02.2023 02:43, Carlos E. R. wrote:
systemctl edit mlocate.timer
and add:
[Unit] After=logrotate.service
Did not work.
Of course not. It does not matter when timer unit is started - you need to add ordering dependencies to the services started by these timers.
On 2023-02-28 18:32, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On 28.02.2023 02:43, Carlos E. R. wrote:
systemctl edit mlocate.timer
and add:
[Unit] After=logrotate.service
Did not work.
Of course not. It does not matter when timer unit is started - you need to add ordering dependencies to the services started by these timers.
Ok, could you tell me how to do that? I googled for "ordering dependencies in systemd" and did not find it. Do you mean to add: After=logrotate.service in mlocate.service instead? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Отправлено с iPhone
28 февр. 2023 г., в 21:23, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> написал(а):
On 2023-02-28 18:32, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On 28.02.2023 02:43, Carlos E. R. wrote:
systemctl edit mlocate.timer
and add:
[Unit] After=logrotate.service
Did not work.
Of course not. It does not matter when timer unit is started - you need to add ordering dependencies to the services started by these timers.
Ok, could you tell me how to do that?
I googled for "ordering dependencies in systemd" and did not find it.
Do you mean to add:
After=logrotate.service
in mlocate.service instead?
Yes (assuming these are the services started by timers).
On 2023-02-28 20:40, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
Отправлено с iPhone
28 февр. 2023 г., в 21:23, Carlos E. R. <> написал(а): On 2023-02-28 18:32, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On 28.02.2023 02:43, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Do you mean to add:
After=logrotate.service
in mlocate.service instead?
Yes (assuming these are the services started by timers).
Ok, I have that in place already, we'll see what it does at midnight. Thanks. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2023-02-28 a las 21:45 +0100, Carlos E. R. escribió:
On 2023-02-28 20:40, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
Отправлено с iPhone
28 февр. 2023 г., в 21:23, Carlos E. R. <> написал(а): On 2023-02-28 18:32, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On 28.02.2023 02:43, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Do you mean to add:
After=logrotate.service
in mlocate.service instead?
Yes (assuming these are the services started by timers).
Ok, I have that in place already, we'll see what it does at midnight. Thanks.
cer@Telcontar:~> grep "Backup tool\|Do daily mandb update\|Rotate log files\|Update locate database\|Daily seccheck run" /var/log/messages ... <3.6> 2023-03-01T00:00:01.205125+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Backup tool... <3.6> 2023-03-01T00:00:01.207306+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Do daily mandb update... <3.6> 2023-03-01T00:00:01.208574+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Rotate log files... <3.6> 2023-03-01T00:00:01.209534+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Daily seccheck run... <3.6> 2023-03-01T00:00:01.214831+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Backup tool. <3.6> 2023-03-01T00:00:01.274576+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Rotate log files. <3.6> 2023-03-01T00:00:01.277098+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Starting Update locate database... <3.6> 2023-03-01T00:00:02.659882+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Do daily mandb update. <3.6> 2023-03-01T00:00:03.419551+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Daily seccheck run. <3.6> 2023-03-01T00:00:37.104963+01:00 Telcontar systemd 1 - - Finished Update locate database. Right, this is working. The "Starting Update locate database" happened after "Finished Rotate log files". Now I only have to figure out the proper ordering of things and implement them. Another day :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCY/6dEhwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfV1W0An0FV1/8wHoPpPHNPXB/s 6O2t7zyTAJ9n9yWnj6hUkoEcOF6O1+TcYkGlCw== =tpcr -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Carlos E. R. composed on 2023-02-26 09:25 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata wrote:
# journalctl -b --no-hostname| grep "Feb 25" | egrep -v 'smartd|rpc' Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Do daily mandb update... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Rotate log files... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Update locate database... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: logrotate.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Rotate log files. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: mandb.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Do daily mandb update.
What is mystifiying to me is that the three tasks start simultaneously, and the three end in zero seconds.
Why have multiple cores dividing up one job at a time when several jobs can each run on one core without need to manage separation and recombination? -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On 2023-02-26 19:30, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2023-02-26 09:25 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata wrote:
# journalctl -b --no-hostname| grep "Feb 25" | egrep -v 'smartd|rpc' Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Do daily mandb update... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Rotate log files... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Update locate database... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: logrotate.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Rotate log files. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: mandb.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Do daily mandb update.
What is mystifiying to me is that the three tasks start simultaneously, and the three end in zero seconds.
Why have multiple cores dividing up one job at a time when several jobs can each run on one core without need to manage separation and recombination?
Sure, the CPU part can be divided. But these jobs are about shufling files or seeking files. The updatedb job in particular has to explore every directory in every hard disk, meaning a log of disk head movement, impeding any other hard disk job and impacting the entire machine down. There is no parallelization in hard disk. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 19:39:51 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 2023-02-26 19:30, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2023-02-26 09:25 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata wrote:
# journalctl -b --no-hostname| grep "Feb 25" | egrep -v 'smartd|rpc' Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Do daily mandb update... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Rotate log files... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Starting Update locate database... Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: logrotate.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Rotate log files. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: mandb.service: Deactivated successfully. Feb 25 00:00:47 systemd[1]: Finished Do daily mandb update.
What is mystifiying to me is that the three tasks start simultaneously, and the three end in zero seconds.
Why have multiple cores dividing up one job at a time when several jobs can each run on one core without need to manage separation and recombination?
Sure, the CPU part can be divided. But these jobs are about shufling files or seeking files.
Err, the mandb is probably a NO-OP unless a new program has been installed, and rotate logs is just close some files and open new ones.
The updatedb job in particular has to explore every directory in every hard disk, meaning a log of disk head movement, impeding any other hard disk job and impacting the entire machine down. There is no parallelization in hard disk.
As you say updatedb has to do more work and that is exactly the one that started but did not finish, so I'm still not sure what your concern is. It feels like you're worrying about nothing.
participants (6)
-
Andrei Borzenkov -
Carlos E. R. -
Dave Howorth -
Felix Miata -
Manfred Hollstein -
Patrick Shanahan