Op vrijdag 26 april 2019 18:25:00 CEST schreef Axel Braun:

Hi,

can one explain to me how I have to read the snapshot list?

snapper list gives three snapshots, 0, 549 and 573 # | Typ | Vorher # | Datum | Benutzer | Verwendeter Platz | Bereinigen | Beschreibung | Benutzerdaten -----+--------+----------+---------------------------------- +----------+-------------------+------------+--------------+-------------- 0 | single | | | root | | | | current | 549* | | single | | Sat 30 Mar 2019 09:17:16 PM CET | root | 24.02 MiB | | | 573 | post | 568 | Mon 22 Apr 2019 10:12:32 AM CEST | root | 23.98 MiB | number | |

For #0 it says 'current snapshot', the '*' indicates that this snapshot is currently mounted (according to the error message I received when trying to delete it), and 573 is the latest snapshot, but unused? ( I had deleted some snapshots between 549 and 573 in between )

Thanks Axel The 0 - current means, it's the current install. If f.e. you run a DVD upgrade from Leap 15.0 to 15.1 some other number will become 'current'. The 573 is a 'post' type of snapshot. On a 'zypper dup' or 'zypper in foo' f.e. a 'pre' and a 'post' will be generated. At least that's how I interpreted the output so far. The currently mounted one, is the result ( AFAIK ) of creating a snapshot .

-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-support+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-support+owner@opensuse.org

Op vrijdag 26 april 2019 19:38:21 CEST schreef Axel Braun:

Am Freitag, 26. April 2019, 18:36:20 CEST schrieb Knurpht-openSUSE:

...

Op vrijdag 26 april 2019 18:25:00 CEST schreef Axel Braun:

...

Hi,

can one explain to me how I have to read the snapshot list?

snapper list gives three snapshots, 0, 549 and 573

# | Typ | Vorher # | Datum | Benutzer |

Verwendeter Platz | Bereinigen | Beschreibung | Benutzerdaten -----+--------+----------+---------------------------------- +----------+-------------------+------------+--------------+------------ -- 0 | single | |

| root | | | | | current | 549* | | | single | | Sat 30

Mar 2019 09:17:16 PM CET | root | 24.02 MiB | |

| 573 | post | 568 | Mon 22 Apr 2019 10:12:32 | AM

CEST | root | 23.98 MiB | number | |

For #0 it says 'current snapshot', the '*' indicates that this snapshot is currently mounted (according to the error message I received when trying to delete it), and 573 is the latest snapshot, but unused? ( I had deleted some snapshots between 549 and 573 in between )

Thanks Axel

The 0 - current means, it's the current install. If f.e. you run a DVD upgrade from Leap 15.0 to 15.1 some other number will become 'current'. The 573 is a 'post' type of snapshot. On a 'zypper dup' or 'zypper in foo' f.e. a 'pre' and a 'post' will be generated. At least that's how I interpreted the output so far. The currently mounted one, is the result ( AFAIK ) of creating a snapshot . So the mountable new snapshot is created with each zypper dup? As this is a TW install it is a quite regular activity. And I would expect that 549 would be the 'current' system. This is obviously not the case.

Thanks Axel That confused me too. The way I understand it now, is that the mounted one is what's currently (:D) running. And 0 is definitely the initial install, shows that on TW and Leap. In a couple of weeks I'll have a look after dupping 15.0 -> 15.1. -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team

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On 4/26/19 6:25 PM, Axel Braun wrote:

can one explain to me how I have to read the snapshot list?

[0] covers it. For actual usage see [1] and snapper(8). [0]: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Snapper_Tutorial [1]: https://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/leap/reference/html/book.opensuse.ref... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-support+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-support+owner@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 27. April 2019, 12:19:37 CEST schrieb Oleksii Vilchanskyi:

...

can one explain to me how I have to read the snapshot list?

[0] covers it. For actual usage see [1] and snapper(8).

Thank you for the links! I read through them, but the issue with the mounted file system was not explained (or I did not find it) Best, Axel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-support+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-support+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 20:06:38 +0200 Christian Boltz wrote:

Hello,

(hmm, should we open a board-support mailinglist? ;-)

Woosh! Sorry, I don't understand that comment. In particular, what is a 'board' in this context?

Am Samstag, 27. April 2019, 09:40:03 CEST schrieb Axel Braun:

...

I updated TW this morning, and now it looks like this (shortened):

# | Typ | before# | Date | Space | Descript. -----+--------+---------+--------------------+------------+----------- -- 0 | single | | | | current 549* | single | | Sa 30 Mär 21:17:16 | 21,11 MiB | 573 | post | 568 | Mo 22 Apr 10:12:32 | 25,21 MiB | 574 | pre | | Fr 26 Apr 19:04:58 | 368,00 KiB | zypp(zypper) 575 | post | 574 | Fr 26 Apr 19:05:02 | 208,00 KiB | 576 | pre | | Fr 26 Apr 19:38:44 | 192,00 KiB | yast fonts 577 | post | 576 | Fr 26 Apr 19:39:09 | 384,00 KiB | 578 | pre | | Fr 26 Apr 19:39:18 | 96,00 KiB | yast sudo 579 | post | 578 | Fr 26 Apr 19:39:51 | 16,00 KiB | 580 | pre | | Fr 26 Apr 19:39:58 | 16,00 KiB | yast alt. 581 | post | 580 | Fr 26 Apr 19:40:10 | 816,00 KiB | 582 | pre | | Sa 27 Apr 08:33:06 | 11,93 MiB | zypp(zypper) 583 | post | 582 | Sa 27 Apr 08:43:46 | 10,82 MiB |

That gives some insghts: - Still 549 is mounted!

Yes, of course.

When using the "usual"/"traditional" setup, you can think of the additional snapshots as "backups" that are done before and after installing packages etc. As every good backup, they are hopefully superfluous and get thrown away sooner or later ;-)

The snapshot that gets used will only change if you use "snapper rollback". (And I guess you used "snapper rollback" in the past, because otherwise you'd have #1 instead of #549 mounted at /.)

This confuses me. Surely if any snapshot is in use it will be the latest one after the last zypper action? Otherwise, it doesn't correspond to my idea of what yast or zypper do. How can the running system precede the latest changes? What would happen if I rolled back to snapshot 549? Shouldn't that be an older, different state?

The longer version of this is on https://www.susecon.com/doc/2015/sessions/HO20031.pdf (which I abused ;-) for a btrfs talk in my LUG recently - thanks Thorsten!)

TL;DR

There's also the option to use transactional updates

But IIRC, using Tx updates is not a good idea? [snip]

...

- 574/575 are from a removal of some packages. - 576-581 result from starting some YaST modules *without performing changes*. This is IMHO nonsense, aka a bug - there is no need for a snapshot unless I changes something

Agreed in theory.

In practise, some YaST modules do their changes not only at the very end, but also if you click specific buttons, so creating a snapshot at the end would be too late. This also means that doing the snapshots when starting and exiting a YaST module is the easiest way. I wouldn't be surprised if this is done in the "global" YaST code and not even module-specific.

I agree that the pre-snapshot has to be taken 'pre' otherwise there's no point. But if the yast session is abandoned surely the correct action to take is to remove the pre snapshot, not create an essentially unchanged after snapshot as well?

That said - if you want to get rid of these superfluous snapshots, feel free to open a bugreport - I'd say it's a valid bug ;-)

Does that mean you agree with me?

On the positive side, creating a "superfluous" snapshot is "cheap", so there'n not too much harm done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-support+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-support+owner@opensuse.org

Op zaterdag 27 april 2019 21:35:18 CEST schreef Dave Howorth:

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 20:06:38 +0200

Christian Boltz wrote:

...

Hello,

(hmm, should we open a board-support mailinglist? ;-)

Woosh! Sorry, I don't understand that comment. In particular, what is a 'board' in this context?

It's the openSUSE Board. Axel, Christian and me are members ......

...

Am Samstag, 27. April 2019, 09:40:03 CEST schrieb Axel Braun:

...

I updated TW this morning, and now it looks like this (shortened): # | Typ | before# | Date | Space |

Descript. -----+--------+---------+--------------------+------------+----------- -- 0 | single | | | | current 549* | single | | Sa 30 Mär 21:17:16 | 21,11 MiB | 573 | post | 568 | Mo 22 Apr 10:12:32 | 25,21 MiB | 574 | pre | | Fr 26 Apr 19:04:58 | 368,00 KiB | zypp(zypper) 575 | post | 574 | Fr 26 Apr 19:05:02 | 208,00 KiB | 576 | pre | | Fr 26 Apr 19:38:44 | 192,00 KiB | yast fonts 577 | post | 576 | Fr 26 Apr 19:39:09 | 384,00 KiB | 578 | pre | | Fr 26 Apr 19:39:18 | 96,00 KiB | yast sudo 579 | post | 578 | Fr 26 Apr 19:39:51 | 16,00 KiB | 580 | pre | | Fr 26 Apr 19:39:58 | 16,00 KiB | yast alt. 581 | post | 580 | Fr 26 Apr 19:40:10 | 816,00 KiB | 582 | pre | | Sa 27 Apr 08:33:06 | 11,93 MiB | zypp(zypper) 583 | post | 582 | Sa 27 Apr 08:43:46 | 10,82 MiB |

That gives some insghts: - Still 549 is mounted!

Yes, of course.

When using the "usual"/"traditional" setup, you can think of the additional snapshots as "backups" that are done before and after installing packages etc. As every good backup, they are hopefully superfluous and get thrown away sooner or later ;-)

The snapshot that gets used will only change if you use "snapper rollback". (And I guess you used "snapper rollback" in the past, because otherwise you'd have #1 instead of #549 mounted at /.)

This confuses me. Surely if any snapshot is in use it will be the latest one after the last zypper action? Otherwise, it doesn't correspond to my idea of what yast or zypper do. How can the running system precede the latest changes? What would happen if I rolled back to snapshot 549? Shouldn't that be an older, different state?

...

The longer version of this is on https://www.susecon.com/doc/2015/sessions/HO20031.pdf (which I abused ;-) for a btrfs talk in my LUG recently - thanks Thorsten!)

TL;DR

...

There's also the option to use transactional updates

But IIRC, using Tx updates is not a good idea?

[snip]

...

...

- 574/575 are from a removal of some packages. - 576-581 result from starting some YaST modules *without performing changes*. This is IMHO nonsense, aka a bug - there is no need for a snapshot unless I changes something

Agreed in theory.

In practise, some YaST modules do their changes not only at the very end, but also if you click specific buttons, so creating a snapshot at the end would be too late. This also means that doing the snapshots when starting and exiting a YaST module is the easiest way. I wouldn't be surprised if this is done in the "global" YaST code and not even module-specific.

I agree that the pre-snapshot has to be taken 'pre' otherwise there's no point. But if the yast session is abandoned surely the correct action to take is to remove the pre snapshot, not create an essentially unchanged after snapshot as well?

...

That said - if you want to get rid of these superfluous snapshots, feel free to open a bugreport - I'd say it's a valid bug ;-)

Does that mean you agree with me?

...

On the positive side, creating a "superfluous" snapshot is "cheap", so there'n not too much harm done.

-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-support+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-support+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 21:57:07 +0200 Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:

Op zaterdag 27 april 2019 21:35:18 CEST schreef Dave Howorth:

...

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 20:06:38 +0200

Christian Boltz wrote:

...

Hello,

(hmm, should we open a board-support mailinglist? ;-)

Woosh! Sorry, I don't understand that comment. In particular, what is a 'board' in this context?

It's the openSUSE Board. Axel, Christian and me are members ......

Ah, thanks. That makes it clear to me ;) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-support+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-support+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, Am Samstag, 27. April 2019, 21:35:18 CEST schrieb Dave Howorth:

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 20:06:38 +0200 Christian Boltz wrote:

...

Am Samstag, 27. April 2019, 09:40:03 CEST schrieb Axel Braun:

...

I updated TW this morning, and now it looks like this (shortened): # | Typ | before# | Date | Space |

Descript. -----+--------+---------+--------------------+------------+------- ---- -- 0 | single | | | | current 549* | single | | Sa 30 Mär 21:17:16 | 21,11 MiB [...] That gives some insghts: - Still 549 is mounted!

Yes, of course.

When using the "usual"/"traditional" setup, you can think of the additional snapshots as "backups" that are done before and after installing packages etc. As every good backup, they are hopefully superfluous and get thrown away sooner or later ;-)

The snapshot that gets used will only change if you use "snapper rollback". (And I guess you used "snapper rollback" in the past, because otherwise you'd have #1 instead of #549 mounted at /.)

This confuses me. Surely if any snapshot is in use it will be the latest one after the last zypper action? Otherwise, it doesn't correspond to my idea of what yast or zypper do. How can the running system precede the latest changes?

The "current" snapshots is always the newest, even if the other snapshots have a higher number.

What would happen if I rolled back to snapshot 549? Shouldn't that be an older, different state?

Nothing, because you would rollback from 549 to 549. I'll try to explain it with traditional filesystems. Let's say you have an ext4 on /dev/sda1 as your / partition. Before running zypper, you do a backup/snapshot: dd if=/dev/sda1 of=/dev/sda2 (Of course dd isn't the usual way to do backups, but it's close to what taking a snapshot does, at least as long as you ignore the required disk space.) Now you run zypper dup and reboot. Your system still boots from /dev/sda1, and that partition has all the new packages you just installed. Does that make it clear? Now translate that back to btrfs: /dev/sda1 -> snapshot 549 (current, including the updated packages) /dev/sda2 -> one of the 573..583 snapshots (with the old packages)

...

The longer version of this is on https://www.susecon.com/doc/2015/sessions/HO20031.pdf (which I abused ;-) for a btrfs talk in my LUG recently - thanks Thorsten!)

TL;DR

Maybe you should, it helps to understand btrfs and snapshots ;-)

...

There's also the option to use transactional updates

But IIRC, using Tx updates is not a good idea?

It depends on your usecase. IMHO the biggest problem with transactional updates is that you need to reboot after installing a package, which can be very annoying if you need an additional program quickly. Actually that's the only reason why I decided against using transactional updates on my laptop. ["superfluous" snapshots when YaST doesn't do any changes]

I agree that the pre-snapshot has to be taken 'pre' otherwise there's no point. But if the yast session is abandoned surely the correct action to take is to remove the pre snapshot, not create an essentially unchanged after snapshot as well?

That would also be an option, but probably [1] isn't much easier than not creating the pre snapshot at all - my guess is that every YaST module would have to be touched to implement this.

...

That said - if you want to get rid of these superfluous snapshots, feel free to open a bugreport - I'd say it's a valid bug ;-)

Does that mean you agree with me?

Yes. I'm "just" saying that it's not the most critical bug we have, and that fixing it will need quite some time. Nevertheless, feel free to open a bugreport ;-) Regards, Christian Boltz [1] I don't know the YaST code, therefore I can only guess -- Die Liste ist kein bezahltes Ticket System mit psychologischer Betreuung, die Erwartungshaltung gegenüber diesen Diensten erstaunt mich immer wieder. [Alexander Stoll in postfixbuch-users] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-support+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-support+owner@opensuse.org