[opensuse-releaseteam] Your Feedback for the new Staging Workflow
Dear Staging Managers, After taking over maintainership for the Staging Dashboard engine from you, we have been working on a new implementation of the Staging Workflow in order to make it easier to use, easier to adopt for other distribution maintainers and easier to maintain for us. Another benefit of pulling this into the OBS and make an 'official' feature out of it, is that we can replace some of the functionality that you have introduced with workarounds (such as descriptions/comments to pass around data) by standard OBS/Ruby on Rails objects. We think that some of the more serious problems you have right now with notifications or tracking the history will be easier to solve for us for you. So this is the first release of the new Staging Workflow and we are looking forward to get your feedback to ensure that we are on the right way. Please be aware that this is a minimal viable product and far from finished. We wanted to involve you in this early stage so we get the opportunity to learn from you if we move into the right direction. We still have features to develop and details to improve, and for that we need your guidance. As experienced users of the Staging process, your feedback is very useful for us. We have written down a little bit what we did so far for you: https://gist.github.com/saraycp/ddda1cc4b622149926287b0cadede46b Rest assured we are working on making this a complete OBS feature. Please test as much as you can now and do not hesitate tocontact our product owner Henne (hvogel@suse.de), file issues on github or talk to any of us (mail: bs-team@suse.de, irc: chat.freenode.net/#opensuse-buildservice)if you have any questionor suggestion. We are very much looking forward to your feedback! Regards, The OBS Team -- Saray A. Cabrera Padrón | scabrerapadron@suse.de | scabrerapadron@suse.com Full Stack Web Developer - Open Build Service SUSE Linux GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nürnberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0; Fax: +49-911-7417755; https://www.suse.com/ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg)
Hello, thank you for reaching out to us Saray! I am glad that the staging topic has priority. On Mon, 4 Feb 2019, Saray Cabrera Padron wrote:
Dear Staging Managers,
After taking over maintainership for the Staging Dashboard engine from you, we have been working on a new implementation of the Staging Workflow in order to make it easier to use, easier to adopt for other distribution maintainers and easier to maintain for us.
Another benefit of pulling this into the OBS and make an 'official' feature out of it, is that we can replace some of the functionality that you have introduced with workarounds (such as descriptions/comments to pass around data) by standard OBS/Ruby on Rails objects. We think that some of the more serious problems you have right now with notifications or tracking the history will be easier to solve for us for you.
Actually the release managers are not involed in your efforts at all so far, not as testers, not as stakeholders. We might want to change that, before you put too much effort in something that maybe does not have priority to them and on the other hand miss out some crucial aspects?
So this is the first release of the new Staging Workflow and we are looking forward to get your feedback to ensure that we are on the right way. Please be aware that this is a minimal viable product and far from finished. We wanted to involve you in this early stage so we get the opportunity to learn from you if we move into the right direction. We still have features to develop and details to improve, and for that we need your guidance. As experienced users of the Staging process, your feedback is very useful for us.
We have written down a little bit what we did so far for you: https://gist.github.com/saraycp/ddda1cc4b622149926287b0cadede46b
Rest assured we are working on making this a complete OBS feature. Please test as much as you can now and do not hesitate to contact our product owner Henne (hvogel@suse.de), file issues on github or talk to any of us (mail: bs-team@suse.de, irc: chat.freenode.net/#opensuse-buildservice) if you have any question or suggestion.
I tried to give it a try, but failed. As this is of interest for many of our project and release managers I would like to invite you and Henne to our next project management meeting next wednesday at 15:30. It would be super cool if you could explain to us directly what you do and what is expected from us. May I invite you to that meeting? Best, Anja
We are very much looking forward to your feedback!
Regards, The OBS Team
-- Thank you, Anja Anja Stock Manager of SLE Project Management ast@suse.com Tel: +49 9 11/7 40 53 381 SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg)
Hey! we're very glad you got the time to look into this :-) Thank you for coming back so fast. On 07.02.19 14:05, Anja Stock wrote:
On Mon, 4 Feb 2019, Saray Cabrera Padron wrote:
After taking over maintainership for the Staging Dashboard engine from you, we have been working on a new implementation of the Staging Workflow in order to make it easier to use, easier to adopt for other distribution maintainers and easier to maintain for us.
Actually the release managers are not involed in your efforts at all so far
I personally had various meetings with Behlert, Coolo and Ludwig and a couple of other release managers (Max, Jimmy) where we have gone over your needs and the technical details involved. Most closely with your Architect (he even was embedded in the development). I guess somewhere there was a disconnect on your side, sorry to hear that. But that's okay, shit happens. Let's fix that!
So this is the first release of the new Staging Workflow and we are looking forward to get your feedback
I tried to give it a try, but failed.
A shame, but to be expected. No MVP is perfect. What happened? :-)
As this is of interest for many of our project and release managers I would like to invite you and Henne to our next project management meeting next wednesday at 15:30.
I gladly come to your meeting if you think this is the right place to discuss this. We specifically addressed this to opensuse-releaseteam/sle-release-coord because we've got told that those are the lists where people gather that work on stagings, sorry if I misunderstood something. However, maybe you can explain to me **what** is not clear about what we wrote? Just so I can prepare and don't waste too much of your time in that meeting. Preferably in a conversation, I sit one floor away from you and my door is always open (a.k.a. We don't have doors in the old all-hands). Thank you in advance, looking forward to talk to you about this! Henne p.s. Not sure why you think you need to put that many people into CC, you can rest assured that Engineering Services is synced on this. -- Hendrik Vogelsang, Open Build Service Team SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+owner@opensuse.org
Saray Cabrera Padron schrieb:
[...] We have written down a little bit what we did so far for you: https://gist.github.com/saraycp/ddda1cc4b622149926287b0cadede46b
Rest assured we are working on making this a complete OBS feature. Please test as much as you can now and do not hesitate tocontact our
I'm not sure what is expected from us here. How are we supposed to do that exactly? To me it looks like the state is too early for us to do anything practical. The staging projects you have there are empty and do not build. None of us is in the required group to interact with the system. The test packages in your test project are unknown to me at least and it doesn't build an ISO as we know it. If you want feedback about the real tricks and corner cases we need the packages we know in a familiar setup. According to your documentation operations on that new staging workflow require manual API calls anyways. TBH I'm not really eager to learn more OBS API calls. Give me the user interface and tools I need instead please :-) So short of being able to play around if you want feedback at this early stage we'd need some more concrete questions to answer. The other alternative I see is that you will be given access to an existing product's staging (I can offer Leap) and you'll quickly figure out yourself where the trouble is. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.com/ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+owner@opensuse.org
Hey Ludwig, On 07.02.19 14:19, Ludwig Nussel wrote:
Saray Cabrera Padron schrieb:
[...] We have written down a little bit what we did so far for you: https://gist.github.com/saraycp/ddda1cc4b622149926287b0cadede46b
Rest assured we are working on making this a complete OBS feature. Please test as much as you can now and do not hesitate tocontact our
I'm not sure what is expected from us here. How are we supposed to do that exactly? To me it looks like the state is too early for us to do anything practical.
Sure, like we said, this is the first shot at it. It's in no way meant to be for productive use. However maybe you can take it as far as you can take it and tell us what you think? What you like and what you don't like, opportunities you see? That is what we are looking for, so when we do more iterations of this, with the gained insight from you.
The staging projects you have there are empty and do not build.
Because nobody staged anything yet :-)
None of us is in the required group to interact with the system.
Sorry, we forgot to mention this in the announcement. You are now, so are Coolo and Anja. Just drop me an email if you need more people in it.
The test packages in your test project are unknown to me
Does this matter for the functionality that is there? It's "sample" data so you can stage/unstage & ignore/unignore a few requests, look at the results and play with the creation.
If you want feedback about the real tricks and corner cases we need the packages we know in a familiar setup. We don't want feedback about the things that are not there. We want feedback about the things that are there.
According to your documentation operations on that new staging workflow require manual API calls anyways. TBH I'm not really eager to learn more OBS API calls You don't have to, you can copy and paste. And maybe if you don't have the time to do it, someone else can? Especially your people who will consume the API and not the UI.
It's okay if this is not for you. We're just asking for feedback. Up to you what you want to do about this.
Give me the user interface and tools I need instead please :-)
Like we wrote, this is what we have now. osc command and user interfaces are planed for iterations in the future.
The other alternative I see is that you will be given access to an existing product's staging (I can offer Leap) and you'll quickly figure out yourself where the trouble is.
We have a pretty good understanding about where the trouble is, we talked about this already a couple of times and we will continue to talk to you about this, we will continue to involve your Architect into the development of concepts and code. But additionally to that we want your feedback on the steps we take. You do this with your own products all the time don't you? Alpha releases, beta programs, customer approval phases, yadda yadda yadda :-) Henne -- Hendrik Vogelsang, Open Build Service Team SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+owner@opensuse.org
Am 07.02.19 um 17:00 schrieb Henne Vogelsang:
But additionally to that we want your feedback on the steps we take. You do this with your own products all the time don't you? Alpha releases, beta programs, customer approval phases, yadda yadda yadda :-) No, we don't release bare APIs and tell the customer to copy&paste around to
imagine the future. When we release an Alpha, it's ready but has bugs. *And* we have a migration path for customers - we actually do care about updates from one version to the other. As you want my feedback on steps to take (which is a first I'd say): Roll over and start from where the users are - and improve that step by step always considering the update path. You want the staging dashboard to no longer to use a file to store ignored requests? Offer an alternative API, adopt the command line tool to use it, obsolete the old way, migrate the old data and offer a webui way to ignore requests. If you want to implement your own staging fork, do so - but please don't pretend someone asked you to. Greetings, Stephan -- Lighten up, just enjoy life, smile more, laugh more, and don't get so worked up about things. Kenneth Branagh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+owner@opensuse.org
Hey, On 08.02.19 08:09, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am 07.02.19 um 17:00 schrieb Henne Vogelsang:
But additionally to that we want your feedback on the steps we take. You do this with your own products all the time don't you? Alpha releases, beta programs, customer approval phases, yadda yadda yadda :-)
No, we don't release bare APIs and tell the customer to copy&paste around to imagine the future.
Phew, I would love to philosophize with you about the nature of our products and how they compare, but that's a little beside the point of this exercise...
As you want my feedback on steps to take (which is a first I'd say):
And I would also appreciate candid feedback over a coffee about how you think I should do my job. Maybe I have an idea or two about how you should do yours, who knows? But also beside the point, sorry :-) So coming back to the point: For those of you who understand what is going on, please provide feedback about what we have produced. If you have further need to discuss things, let's do this next Wednesday at 15:30 in your meeting (where BTW?). If you could help me prepare for this by expressing what you want to talk about (agenda, questions you already have in your mind etc.) it would be highly appreciated. Henne -- Hendrik Vogelsang, Open Build Service Team SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+owner@opensuse.org
Moin, A few days gone and I missed apparently all the fun.... I gave it a short try this morning, and did not get far, so let's clarify a few things... * Am I right that putting requests into a Staging only works with osc atm? (I failed with osc, not getting authtificated - not sure why [yet]). * The "configure" mentioned in the documentation ("On the dashboard just click on Configure to start playing arround with Staging Projects.")...is this only visible for some people? I failed to find that on https://build.opensuse.org/staging_workflows/6 (and looking at https://openbuildservice.org/help/manuals/obs-best-practices/cha.obs.best-pr... it should be prominently visible) * Could someone put a request in one of the staging so it's possible to see how this looks like? It would be good if you cold clarify who is currently expected to be able to change things there. Stefan On Feb 07, 19 17:00:33 +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey Ludwig,
On 07.02.19 14:19, Ludwig Nussel wrote:
Saray Cabrera Padron schrieb:
[...] We have written down a little bit what we did so far for you: https://gist.github.com/saraycp/ddda1cc4b622149926287b0cadede46b
Rest assured we are working on making this a complete OBS feature. Please test as much as you can now and do not hesitate tocontact our
I'm not sure what is expected from us here. How are we supposed to do that exactly? To me it looks like the state is too early for us to do anything practical.
Sure, like we said, this is the first shot at it. It's in no way meant to be for productive use. However maybe you can take it as far as you can take it and tell us what you think? What you like and what you don't like, opportunities you see? That is what we are looking for, so when we do more iterations of this, with the gained insight from you.
The staging projects you have there are empty and do not build.
Because nobody staged anything yet :-)
None of us is in the required group to interact with the system.
Sorry, we forgot to mention this in the announcement. You are now, so are Coolo and Anja. Just drop me an email if you need more people in it.
The test packages in your test project are unknown to me
Does this matter for the functionality that is there? It's "sample" data so you can stage/unstage & ignore/unignore a few requests, look at the results and play with the creation.
If you want feedback about the real tricks and corner cases we need the packages we know in a familiar setup. We don't want feedback about the things that are not there. We want feedback about the things that are there.
According to your documentation operations on that new staging workflow require manual API calls anyways. TBH I'm not really eager to learn more OBS API calls You don't have to, you can copy and paste. And maybe if you don't have the time to do it, someone else can? Especially your people who will consume the API and not the UI.
It's okay if this is not for you. We're just asking for feedback. Up to you what you want to do about this.
Give me the user interface and tools I need instead please :-)
Like we wrote, this is what we have now. osc command and user interfaces are planed for iterations in the future.
The other alternative I see is that you will be given access to an existing product's staging (I can offer Leap) and you'll quickly figure out yourself where the trouble is.
We have a pretty good understanding about where the trouble is, we talked about this already a couple of times and we will continue to talk to you about this, we will continue to involve your Architect into the development of concepts and code.
But additionally to that we want your feedback on the steps we take. You do this with your own products all the time don't you? Alpha releases, beta programs, customer approval phases, yadda yadda yadda :-)
Henne
-- Hendrik Vogelsang, Open Build Service Team SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
-- Stefan Behlert, SUSE LINUX Sr. Release Manager Enterprise Server Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg, Germany Phone +49-911-74053-173 SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+owner@opensuse.org
Hey Stefan! On 11.02.19 13:54, Stefan Behlert wrote:
I gave it a short try this morning, and did not get far, so let's clarify a few things...
- Am I right that putting requests into a Staging only works with osc atm? (I failed with osc, not getting authtificated - not sure why [yet]).
Yeah it does, doing this in the UI too is in the plan :-)
- The "configure" mentioned in the documentation ("On the dashboard just click on Configure to start playing arround with Staging Projects.")...is this only visible for some people?
Yeah you where not in the group that has access to all of this. I've just added you. So you can stage requests and configure now. Let me know what you think. We will schedule group self service a bit higher now and look into making it more clear who is allowed to do what. Thanks for helping to make this bit more clear! Henne -- Hendrik Vogelsang, Open Build Service Team SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+owner@opensuse.org
Moin, On Feb 11, 19 14:15:41 +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey Stefan!
On 11.02.19 13:54, Stefan Behlert wrote:
I gave it a short try this morning, and did not get far, so let's clarify a few things...
- Am I right that putting requests into a Staging only works with osc atm? (I failed with osc, not getting authtificated - not sure why [yet]).
Yeah it does, doing this in the UI too is in the plan :-)
- The "configure" mentioned in the documentation ("On the dashboard just click on Configure to start playing arround with Staging Projects.")...is this only visible for some people?
Yeah you where not in the group that has access to all of this. I've just added you. So you can stage requests and configure now. Let me know what you think.
Ok, thanks. I was blocked yesterday from looking at it again, but have planned it for today. Sorry for the delay. Stefan
We will schedule group self service a bit higher now and look into making it more clear who is allowed to do what. Thanks for helping to make this bit more clear!
Henne
-- Hendrik Vogelsang, Open Build Service Team SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
-- Stefan Behlert, SUSE LINUX Sr. Release Manager Enterprise Server Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg, Germany Phone +49-911-74053-173 SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+owner@opensuse.org
On 2/4/19 2:58 PM, Saray Cabrera Padron wrote:
Rest assured we are working on making this a complete OBS feature. Please test as much as you can now and do not hesitate tocontact our product owner Henne (hvogel@suse.de), file issues on github or talk to any of us (mail: bs-team@suse.de, irc: chat.freenode.net/#opensuse-buildservice)if you have any questionor suggestion.
We are very much looking forward to your feedback!
Hi Saray, After a rather stressful last week (thanks to Dominique and Max for returning alive!), let me write the feedback you deserve now. There are some small problems and there are big ones. Let me start with the small ones: - I can't imagine https://build.suse.de/project/staging_projects/SUSE:SLE-15:Update:Products:C... without shorting the staging projects to letters. This might work for TestLinux, but I'm afraid real project names for our products tend to be too long to be repeated. - We need an icon for groups without email address - there are too many reviewers we use that are just artificial groups. And I would prefer if the icon had preference if configured. The bigger problems are: - We need different classes of staging projects. Right now we hardcode 'letter projects' and 'adi projects' (and actually have a 3rd class of expert projects like Staging:Gcc7). These classes have different purposes and we apply different work flows for them, so having them all in one list hinders our job a lot. SUSE projects at the moment only have one class, but SLE-15:GA had adi projects as well. We currently have 137 adi projects for openSUSE:Factory, these deserve a different tab. - Selecting as part of the OBS api is problematic as long as you don't support projects with multiple rings. The number of quirks we have to support (with packages that have multiple spec files, where one is built in ring0 and the other in ring1; with delete requests; with baselibs.conf; with supersedes ...) is too big that I would feel comfortable to trust your code (no offense). I would prefer if we had a way to link the request to the staging prj without source changes (same with unselect). I can see how selecting in one go is good enough for TestLinux though - if treating multiple spec files containers correctly. - The biggest problem of all: it's very hard to estimate what else is missing without a way to test this with realistic data and with a little easier mechanism to actually select than copy&pasting API urls. I would really like to see some hybrid projects where we e.g. can have one staging project of Factory or Leap be managed with the new way, so we can adopt our tooling and see where we fail. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-releaseteam+owner@opensuse.org
participants (6)
-
Anja Stock -
Henne Vogelsang -
Ludwig Nussel -
Saray Cabrera Padron -
Stefan Behlert -
Stephan Kulow