[opensuse-project] Decision making for the distribution
The whole "KDE Default" discussion raises also the question on how we do make decisions and what is the purpose of openFATE. My take on this is: openSUSE in general uses the technically best solution - and this contains both features and stability - and where that's not feasible, the most popular solution is used. With openFATE, an evaluation of features is done and features get marked as usefull - and then we need to decide which of these many features get implemented. And here voting will help to reflect popularity. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Hi, on 08/04/2009 02:12 PM Andreas Jaeger wrote:
If you want to make this decision making process based on objective criteria you have to tell us how you want to measure all this. Stating this is only 2% of the work :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 2009-08-04T14:36:48, Henne Vogelsang <hvogel@opensuse.org> wrote:
Voting, aka "wisdom of the crowds" aka decision markets? Further, this is about defaults or exclusive choices. It doesn't mean that alternatives cannot be included for most scenarios, and where the default is truly unclear, possibly even offering a choice, no? Regards, Lars -- Architect Storage/HA, OPS Engineering, Novell, Inc. SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, on 08/04/2009 02:40 PM Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:
For the popularity criteria voting is okay. You just have to figure out who is eligible for a vote and how to vote and stuff but voting for stability or features sounds wrong to me... Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 04 August 2009 14:47:53 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Now I'm confused. I never mentioned voting for stability. And voting for features is done in openFATE right now - and either I understand you that you want the voting removed (and then see lots of +1 in the comments ;-( ) or - and that's the purpose of my write up: What does voting for features mean? How to interpret it? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Tuesday 04 August 2009 14:50:56 Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Agreed, just having a vote system and a vague 'we are open' like in http://news.opensuse.org/2009/07/01/openfate-adding-new-features-now-open- for-everybody/ would just lead to disappointment if for example a popular ("more apple pie!") feature is not implemented due to the logistical difficulty of keeping pie and DVDs separate in the box. http://news.opensuse.org/2009/01/16/opensuse-project-opens-feature-tracking- with-openfate is better but http://en.opensuse.org/OpenFATE/Documentation needs a lot of clarification. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, on 08/04/2009 02:50 PM Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Okay lets start from the beginning. What are you talking about here? I understood that you are talking about the decision making process for the distribution. Given your subject and your explanation in your mail. Maybe i misunderstood. Whats this mail about then? :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 04 August 2009 15:32:39 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
My mail was meant to start a discussion on how we make decisions about features in the openSUSE distribution and how openFATE voting will help. We have to clarify what voting means - and can do. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Hi, on 08/04/2009 03:43 PM Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Features meaning openFATE features i take it. Understood. You really need to think about your choice for a subject line then next time. Because openFATe features are a minor subset of "decision making for the distribution" :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Michael, On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Michael Loeffler<michl@novell.com> wrote:
I couldn't agree more! The challenge is, afaict, there's been a tradition of those additional considerations being included -- but, that process _seems_ to be waning. As a small-business/server user -- almost by definition "in the minority" -- although one that spends a lot of money every year on openSUSE(and SuSE)-related people, products & services, I'm, frankly, very concerned by the possibility that the distro evolves to a managed-by-huge-committtee, majority-rules product. Does this project really want to become another Fedora or Ubuntu? There are countless instances of low-level bugs, or fundamentally important design issues, that would never even register on an openfate popularity-poll, or may well rankle somone's "feelings", but -- imho -- should nonetheless be decided/directed by a much smaller group with the appropriate business, functional or technical competencies. Personally, I do NOT always agree with the decisions of those "smaller groups" either -- but that mecahnism has led to a distro that, imho, remains uniquely functional and valuable to my businesses' interests. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Il giorno mar, 04/08/2009 alle 16.48 +0200, Michael Loeffler ha scritto:
You should *remove* survey results from the factors, as long as the surveys are done without any criterion to at least try to make them representative. There is no statistical value in an open survey because the sample of responders is not selected, not checked and not representative. Moreover, the past surveys have no check for biased answers either. Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, on 08/04/2009 06:34 PM Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
Just a note. The past surveys where done by someone with a background in social science and statistics. So they are not as useless as you make them. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch 05 August 2009 schrieb Henne Vogelsang:
Still people use single numbers out of the raw data to make arguments. They don't use normalized numbers because we have no idea what's representative. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 04 August 2009 14:36:48 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Do you have a better proposal on what we shall do in similar situations that will come up? People expect that voting works - and I think we have to state where voting will work and where not, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Andreas Jaeger <aj@novell.com> wrote:
I dont think voting works. Maybe the decision should be made by a technical commitee, or the release manager, or the board, I dont know. But wide vote I dont believe it works at all. Regards Márcio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le mardi 04 août 2009, à 09:58 -0300, Druid a écrit :
There was this proposal at some point that many people liked: http://en.opensuse.org/User:Jproseve/CoreMaintainerProposal I still think it's the right way forward. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 04 August 2009 15:08:54 Vincent Untz wrote:
What hinders us to implement something like that? This could need an update after the opening of factory where teams have responsibility for an area... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Le mardi 04 août 2009, à 15:11 +0200, Andreas Jaeger a écrit :
Oh, nothing hinders us :-) And we actually started "implementing" this in GNOME with a core team there. So, let's just approve it and do it? :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, on 08/04/2009 03:11 PM Andreas Jaeger wrote:
We have to get rid of Coolo 8) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 04 August 2009 16:04:02 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
He could be part of the team - consider cloning Coolo ;) Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
* Andreas Jaeger <aj@novell.com> [08-04-09 10:09]:
He could be part of the team - consider cloning Coolo ;)
*If* you consider cloning Coolo, he *would* be the team :^) -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, on 08/05/2009 11:35 AM Stephan Kulow wrote:
Thats what i wanted to express. That we have the very well working role of a release/project manager for the openSUSE distribution and we had to get rid of that role to switch to a committee. That is whats keeping us from implementing a committee. I'm perfectly okay with that role making decisions alone after it consulted the people implementing it. And I trust you in that role 100%. I don't know anyone who does not. So all in all, i think, for decision making about the distribution we already have the perfect process and staffing. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 2009-08-04T09:58:37, Druid <marcio.ferreira@gmail.com> wrote:
This is quite opposite to the literature, by the way. Decision-markets, through polling a large audience and aggregating the results, deliver excellent and empirically sound feedback on the usefulness of features. They're an excellent and open way of gathering "market research" data. Compared to focus groups or expert panels, they have a pretty good accuracy, are cheaper to setup, and by definition "more open". Of course, you must describe them properly (ie, use case/benefit, not the detailed technical specification) - users are the wrong group to vote on the _implementation_, but the only group that can reliably vote on the usefulness. Now it's true that some aspects of voting in bugzilla aren't appropriate for this - for example, decision markets try to avoid feedback loops, so the votes from other users shouldn't necessarily be exposed, but those are more or less implementation details. I can dig out some references in case someone is really interested. But "expert judgment", in particular if it is only one expert, has - both for market research and effort estimation, by the way - an extremely bad track record, yet it often is the best (-> only) tool we have, which is somewhat of a pity. Regards, Lars -- Architect Storage/HA, OPS Engineering, Novell, Inc. SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Please provide an example where voting brought to some really good decision at openSUSE. It usually leads to endless discussions without a clear decision, and forces to compromises which are often not in the interest of the distribution. You don't have to take "open decisions" in an open project. You need to take decisions in the interest of the project, the fact that they are open or not does not matter much. So, to make it short, I agree with what Druid said. Best, A. Il giorno mar, 04/08/2009 alle 15.14 +0200, Lars Marowsky-Bree ha scritto:
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Well it sure does matter to me, I don't expect a vote for everything opensuse related, but I prefer knowing how a decision has been made and that the decision has been evaluated by more then one person. I know the teams have regular meetings and anything important gets discussed there and decided upon, not everytime by popular vote but in an open manner... Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
It really depends. There are decisions in the actual interest of the project which won't be taken simply because they would be irritating for many. They still are good decisions, and they still should be taken. That's what I meant. Best, A. Il giorno mar, 04/08/2009 alle 18.56 +0200, Karsten König ha scritto:
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, on 08/04/2009 02:12 PM Andreas Jaeger wrote:
If you want to make this decision making process based on objective criteria you have to tell us how you want to measure all this. Stating this is only 2% of the work :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 2009-08-04T14:36:48, Henne Vogelsang <hvogel@opensuse.org> wrote:
Voting, aka "wisdom of the crowds" aka decision markets? Further, this is about defaults or exclusive choices. It doesn't mean that alternatives cannot be included for most scenarios, and where the default is truly unclear, possibly even offering a choice, no? Regards, Lars -- Architect Storage/HA, OPS Engineering, Novell, Inc. SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, on 08/04/2009 02:40 PM Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:
For the popularity criteria voting is okay. You just have to figure out who is eligible for a vote and how to vote and stuff but voting for stability or features sounds wrong to me... Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 04 August 2009 14:47:53 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Now I'm confused. I never mentioned voting for stability. And voting for features is done in openFATE right now - and either I understand you that you want the voting removed (and then see lots of +1 in the comments ;-( ) or - and that's the purpose of my write up: What does voting for features mean? How to interpret it? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Tuesday 04 August 2009 14:50:56 Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Agreed, just having a vote system and a vague 'we are open' like in http://news.opensuse.org/2009/07/01/openfate-adding-new-features-now-open- for-everybody/ would just lead to disappointment if for example a popular ("more apple pie!") feature is not implemented due to the logistical difficulty of keeping pie and DVDs separate in the box. http://news.opensuse.org/2009/01/16/opensuse-project-opens-feature-tracking- with-openfate is better but http://en.opensuse.org/OpenFATE/Documentation needs a lot of clarification. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
participants (13)
-
Administrator -
Alberto Passalacqua -
Andreas Jaeger -
Druid -
Henne Vogelsang -
Karsten König -
Lars Marowsky-Bree -
Michael Loeffler -
Patrick Shanahan -
PGNet Dev -
Stephan Kulow -
Vincent Untz -
Will Stephenson