[opensuse-project] Installation Media
List, Coolo's recent reports regarding the growing size of our installation media highlight one area where there appears to be no obvious technical solution. We are simply running out of room to squeeze bits into the common capacity optical media that our users are accustom to, namely the CDROM capacity. The pressing concern of this would appear that by increasing the image size for installation via USB fobs or DVD, we might alienate existing or future users that simply cannot easily download an image of growing size. I wonder if we can perhaps fall back to more low-tech methods to help in this regard. We have a network of user groups, ambassadors and such like. I wonder if we could instigate a program of distribution whereby our users can volunteer to physically burn to disc our latest and then use the relatively cheap national postal services to send the media to our users with low bandwidth connections. To take it further, optical media while in decline, is still a very profitable market. I'm sure anyone who has burnt discs has had their experience of the longevity of the media. Perhaps we can approach one of the better quality optical media manufactuers and ask for discounts of scale. This would allow us to send spindles of writable discs to areas where we might have a user group or ambassador but has a generally low level of connectivity. I'm aware of the previous and as I understand now defunct program that canonical sponsored to distribute media, but I have no insight as to it's effectiveness or why it has been stopped. I am suggesting something slightly different, this would hopefully be a community driven effort. It's not a perfect solution by any means, but I can't think that our increasing need for more space will allow us to use CDROM size media in future. Thoughts? Cheers the noo, Graham
Graham Anderson wrote:
List,
Coolo's recent reports regarding the growing size of our installation media highlight one area where there appears to be no obvious technical solution. We are simply running out of room to squeeze bits into the common capacity optical media that our users are accustom to, namely the CDROM capacity. The pressing concern of this would appear that by increasing the image size for installation via USB fobs or DVD, we might alienate existing or future users that simply cannot easily download an image of growing size.
Excellent summing up.
I wonder if we can perhaps fall back to more low-tech methods to help in this regard.
If we are contemplating a change, why not take the opportunity and write up the matrix of media and consumer attributes, hopefully thereby identifying what holes/mismatches we have (if any)?
We have a network of user groups, ambassadors and such like. I wonder if we could instigate a program of distribution whereby our users can volunteer to physically burn to disc our latest and then use the relatively cheap national postal services to send the media to our users with low bandwidth connections.
If it were in my country of residence, I would be happy to help, but let's (see if we can) identify the _actual_ need for such a scheme first. [snip]
It's not a perfect solution by any means, but I can't think that our increasing need for more space will allow us to use CDROM size media in future.
Why is it that USB sticks are not a real alternative? I boot far more often from USB than from CD these days. Only elderly servers (that are rarely booted anyway) have an issue with booting from USB. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 08 Jun 2012 22:35:45 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Why is it that USB sticks are not a real alternative? I boot far more often from USB than from CD these days. Only elderly servers (that are rarely booted anyway) have an issue with booting from USB.
And even in most cases, plop boot manager (http://www.plop.at/) can take care of letting you boot from a USB stick (that's how I boot from USB drives in virtual machines that don't support booting from USB drives). A network-based install could also be useful if there was a local mirror, though that certainly won't cover all areas where bandwidth is restricted. But doing a net install and downloading only the components being installed would be preferable to downloading the entire DVD if all you wanted was a subset of the stuff on the DVD. Again not an ideal situation in bandwidth-starved areas of the world, but an improvement from doing a full DVD download in most cases. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 2012/06/08 22:35 (GMT+0200) Per Jessen composed:
Why is it that USB sticks are not a real alternative?
For some, money matters, sometimes a lot. If a CD reader dies, a free replacement is highly likely available from somewhere, unlike a DVD reader. The cheapest sticks cost many times the price of the most expensive OM blank I've ever run across, and that price gap multiplies when buying OM in spools of 25, 50 or 100, even when including the cost of paper sleeves or plastic holders. OM can be conveniently be labeled with a whole lot more legible text regarding what is contained. Orderly storage for OM is easy to acquire and manage. I've yet to encounter any stick organizer, and considering the variety of stick sizes and shapes, I'd be surprised if I ever did. Miniaturization isn't always a good thing. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
I have yet to have USB stick that that I could install from. They just have not worked here. They are not items novices can create and use apparently. They just are not recognized even when boot from USB is selected. Steven ____________ Apply appropriate technology. Use what works without prejudice. Steven L Hess ARS KC6KGE DM05gd22 Google Voice 661 769 6201 +SMS openSUSE Linux 12.1 KDE 4.7.2 Known as FlameBait and The Sock Puppet of Doom. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2012/06/08 22:35 (GMT+0200) Per Jessen composed:
Why is it that USB sticks are not a real alternative?
For some, money matters, sometimes a lot. If a CD reader dies, a free replacement is highly likely available from somewhere, unlike a DVD reader. The cheapest sticks cost many times the price of the most expensive OM blank I've ever run across, and that price gap multiplies when buying OM in spools of 25, 50 or 100, even when including the cost of paper sleeves or plastic holders.
A 32Gb USB stick is about the same price a 50-pack of CD-Rs and will easily outlast the CD-Rs.
OM can be conveniently be labeled with a whole lot more legible text regarding what is contained.
Yes, that is an issue - we have to get a lot better at including descriptive text on the splash- or boot-image.
Orderly storage for OM is easy to acquire and manage. I've yet to encounter any stick organizer, and considering the variety of stick sizes and shapes, I'd be surprised if I ever did. Miniaturization isn't always a good thing.
Well, how many would you expect to have around? I just have one, maybe two USB sticks with everything on (11.4, 12.1, current Factory, 32bit, 64bit, memtest), easily navigated through with a boot-menu. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (19.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-10 16:45, Per Jessen wrote:
A 32Gb USB stick is about the same price a 50-pack of CD-Rs and will easily outlast the CD-Rs.
On a 50-pack of cds you can install 50 opensuses, and only one in the stick :-) And a box of 1 GiB sticks is more difficult to come by and more expensive.
OM can be conveniently be labeled with a whole lot more legible text regarding what is contained.
Yes, that is an issue - we have to get a lot better at including descriptive text on the splash- or boot-image.
That's when you boot, different from labeling the stick. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/Uw1cACgkQIvFNjefEBxr30gCdGgy7NlO/uhCcTUvkIO2wTLy3 6xsAn005Wsaf7hx5ReXkzJQxgkEzfzZS =WsHv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-06-10 16:45, Per Jessen wrote:
A 32Gb USB stick is about the same price a 50-pack of CD-Rs and will easily outlast the CD-Rs.
On a 50-pack of cds you can install 50 opensuses, and only one in the stick :-)
You can easily have multiple on one stick. Either one after another, or concurrently (with the right setup).
And a box of 1 GiB sticks is more difficult to come by and more expensive.
Probably, but it's hardly relevant.
OM can be conveniently be labeled with a whole lot more legible text regarding what is contained.
Yes, that is an issue - we have to get a lot better at including descriptive text on the splash- or boot-image.
That's when you boot, different from labeling the stick.
True - but because it is difficult to fit enough text onto a USB stick, that is the next best option and we're not very good at that. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (16.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2012/06/08 22:35 (GMT+0200) Per Jessen composed:
Why is it that USB sticks are not a real alternative?
For some, money matters, sometimes a lot. If a CD reader dies, a free replacement is highly likely available from somewhere, unlike a DVD reader. The cheapest sticks cost many times the price of the most expensive OM blank I've ever run across, and that price gap multiplies when buying OM in spools of 25, 50 or 100, even when including the cost of paper sleeves or plastic holders.
A 32Gb USB stick is about the same price a 50-pack of CD-Rs and will easily outlast the CD-Rs.
OM can be conveniently be labeled with a whole lot more legible text regarding what is contained.
Yes, that is an issue - we have to get a lot better at including descriptive text on the splash- or boot-image.
Orderly storage for OM is easy to acquire and manage. I've yet to encounter any stick organizer, and considering the variety of stick sizes and shapes, I'd be surprised if I ever did. Miniaturization isn't always a good thing.
Well, how many would you expect to have around? I just have one, maybe two USB sticks with everything on (11.4, 12.1, current Factory, 32bit, 64bit, memtest), easily navigated through with a boot-menu.
-- Per Jessen, Zürich (19.2°C)
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Speaking of USB sticks, I find it a bit disconcerting that both Fedora and Ubuntu "full install DVD" images will fit on a 4GB USB stick, but openSUSE needs an 8 GB stick. I just bought three 4 GB sticks ($28US for a three-pack). I now have enough 4GB USB sticks for GNOME and KDE on 12.2, GNOME on 12.1, GNOME and "DVD" for Fedora 17 and 16, OpenShift Origin and a spare. ;-) -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb Computational Journalism Server http://j.mp/compjournoserver Data is the new coal - abundant, dirty and difficult to mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-11 01:30, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
Speaking of USB sticks, I find it a bit disconcerting that both Fedora and Ubuntu "full install DVD" images will fit on a 4GB USB stick, but openSUSE needs an 8 GB stick. I just bought three 4 GB sticks ($28US for a three-pack). I now have enough 4GB USB sticks for GNOME and KDE on 12.2, GNOME on 12.1, GNOME and "DVD" for Fedora 17 and 16, OpenShift Origin and a spare. ;-)
Because it is sized for a DVD, not for a stick. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/VMBQACgkQIvFNjefEBxrHmgCffwKib8xMLK4GESAFNRIBkAJR 6kYAoLAejxRg77mBO83uWm+Ytje1/Nrv =zoeI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 2012/06/08 21:26 (GMT+0200) Graham Anderson composed:
I wonder if we can perhaps fall back to more low-tech methods to help in this regard.
Remember how many floppies DOS 2 came on? DOS 5? Windows 3? OS/2 2? Slackware 1? All I remember for sure is more than one, each successor more than the last, and OS/2 was a _big_ stack (22+ by v2?). Now that the average working and supported _old_ PC has or supports more RAM than a CD holds, maybe it's time to consider the possibility of disc changes again, loading the main OS and utils from #1 into RAM, and putting LibreOffice, Gimp and other applications on #2, with the possibility to utilize any sort of unallocated RAS space for swap. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/06/12 05:26, Graham Anderson wrote:
List,
Coolo's recent reports regarding the growing size of our installation media highlight one area where there appears to be no obvious technical solution. We are simply running out of room to squeeze bits into the common capacity optical media that our users are accustom to, namely the CDROM capacity. The pressing concern of this would appear that by increasing the image size for installation via USB fobs or DVD, we might alienate existing or future users that simply cannot easily download an image of growing size.
I wonder if we can perhaps fall back to more low-tech methods to help in this regard. We have a network of user groups, ambassadors and such like. I wonder if we could instigate a program of distribution whereby our users can volunteer to physically burn to disc our latest and then use the relatively cheap national postal services to send the media to our users with low bandwidth connections.
To take it further, optical media while in decline, is still a very profitable market. I'm sure anyone who has burnt discs has had their experience of the longevity of the media. Perhaps we can approach one of the better quality optical media manufactuers and ask for discounts of scale. This would allow us to send spindles of writable discs to areas where we might have a user group or ambassador but has a generally low level of connectivity.
I'm aware of the previous and as I understand now defunct program that canonical sponsored to distribute media, but I have no insight as to it's effectiveness or why it has been stopped. I am suggesting something slightly different, this would hopefully be a community driven effort.
It's not a perfect solution by any means, but I can't think that our increasing need for more space will allow us to use CDROM size media in future.
Thoughts?
I made this comment in another list. Only recently, whether by design or accident, there were Milestones (I think[****]) put out which had the name of LIVE CD but which, in fact, were too large for a normal CD and had to be burnt onto a SL DVD. There is little difference in downloading an iso which is ~800MB big which can be burnt onto a SL DVD to one which is ~740MB and intended to be burnt onto a CD. I think the confusion lies in the use of the word "DVD" vs CD, the former automatically giving the impression that the file will be ~4.5GB big. How about allowing what is now considered to be a "CD" sized iso to be be bigger and be burnt to a SL DVD but call this LIVE CD "CDPlus" or "CD+" to identify it that it is not the normal CD size? [***] Correction. I just found one of these "CDPlus" jobs: it was the openSUSE 11.4 LIVE with Gnome #3 which had to go onto a SL DVD. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.1 x86_64 KDE 4.8.3 and kernel 3.4.1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday 08 June 2012 21:26:37 Graham Anderson wrote:
List,
Coolo's recent reports regarding the growing size of our installation media highlight one area where there appears to be no obvious technical solution. We are simply running out of room to squeeze bits into the common capacity optical media that our users are accustom to, namely the CDROM capacity. The pressing concern of this would appear that by increasing the image size for installation via USB fobs or DVD, we might alienate existing or future users that simply cannot easily download an image of growing size.
I wonder if we can perhaps fall back to more low-tech methods to help in this regard. We have a network of user groups, ambassadors and such like. I wonder if we could instigate a program of distribution whereby our users can volunteer to physically burn to disc our latest and then use the relatively cheap national postal services to send the media to our users with low bandwidth connections.
To take it further, optical media while in decline, is still a very profitable market. I'm sure anyone who has burnt discs has had their experience of the longevity of the media. Perhaps we can approach one of the better quality optical media manufactuers and ask for discounts of scale. This would allow us to send spindles of writable discs to areas where we might have a user group or ambassador but has a generally low level of connectivity.
I'm aware of the previous and as I understand now defunct program that canonical sponsored to distribute media, but I have no insight as to it's effectiveness or why it has been stopped. I am suggesting something slightly different, this would hopefully be a community driven effort.
It's not a perfect solution by any means, but I can't think that our increasing need for more space will allow us to use CDROM size media in future.
Thoughts?
Please note that I intend to continue to create and distribute tens of thousands DVD's of openSUSE. These are very popular and we send them out to many ambassadors together with other materials. The downside is that I really can't send them in batches smaller than 100 and not to certain countries due to the costs.
Cheers the noo, Graham
participants (9)
-
Basil Chupin -
Carlos E. R. -
Felix Miata -
Graham Anderson -
Jim Henderson -
Jos Poortvliet -
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky -
Per Jessen -
Steven Hess