[opensuse-project] SOPA blackout - I don't think openSUSE ought to be making political statements.
Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind. It doesn't matter whether it might affect the project or not. If we had seen a discussion of SOPA on opensuse-general or -factory, it would have been fairly quickly relegated to opensuse-offtopic. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-2.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, January 18, 2012 9:51 am, Per Jessen wrote:
Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind.
I don't think this is politics, this is about our internet freedom. I agree that openSUSE supports the SOPA blackout.
It doesn't matter whether it might affect the project or not. If we had seen a discussion of SOPA on opensuse-general or -factory, it would have been fairly quickly relegated to opensuse-offtopic.
-- Per Jessen, Zürich (-2.1°C)
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Joop Boonen wrote:
On Wed, January 18, 2012 9:51 am, Per Jessen wrote:
Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind.
I don't think this is politics, this is about our internet freedom.
So we should expect similar actions each time any obscure country tries to impose legislation that the board doesn't agree with? (there are plenty of examples to get started one). I hope not, we would be off-line forever. Please, it's better to stay away than to waste time trying to determine when to participate. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-1.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, January 18, 2012 10:14 am, Per Jessen wrote:
Joop Boonen wrote:
On Wed, January 18, 2012 9:51 am, Per Jessen wrote:
Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind.
I don't think this is politics, this is about our internet freedom.
So we should expect similar actions each time any obscure country tries to impose legislation that the board doesn't agree with? (there are plenty of examples to get started one). I hope not, we would be off-line forever. Please, it's better to stay away than to waste time trying to determine when to participate.
As far as I know this is the first time openSUSE supports a protest against a legislation. Here is some information about SOPA: http://mashable.com/2012/01/17/sopa-dangerous-opinion/ On the internet you can see that openSUSE isn't the only one who supports the SOPA blackout, also a lot of other sites that never protested on internet. A lot of sites do as the SOPA will have a very negative effect on the internet. I don't think we can expect openSUSE to be protesting against other minor issues. As openSUSE hasn't done before.
-- Per Jessen, Zürich (-1.6°C)
Regards, Joop.
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Per Jessen wrote:
Joop Boonen wrote:
On Wed, January 18, 2012 9:51 am, Per Jessen wrote:
Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind. I don't think this is politics, this is about our internet freedom.
So we should expect similar actions each time any obscure country tries
--- ^^^ ??? In case you hadn't noticed, US law enforcement officials have begun enforcing US law against people in other countries. In many cases at the same time, countries are agreeing to treaties where they will honor requests to hand people over for such crimes. You may not care, but when they come and take you away, well, don't expect openSUSE to protest too hard... ;-)... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Linda Walsh wrote:
In case you hadn't noticed, US law enforcement officials have begun enforcing US law against people in other countries. In many cases at the same time, countries are agreeing to treaties where they will honor requests to hand people over for such crimes.
You may not care, but when they come and take you away, well, don't expect openSUSE to protest too hard...
I wouldn't expect openSUSE to do anything at all, openSUSE isn't even a legal entity. /Per -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
Linda Walsh wrote:
In case you hadn't noticed, US law enforcement officials have begun enforcing US law against people in other countries. In many cases at the same time, countries are agreeing to treaties where they will honor requests to hand people over for such crimes.
You may not care, but when they come and take you away, well, don't expect openSUSE to protest too hard...
I wouldn't expect openSUSE to do anything at all, openSUSE isn't even a legal entity.
---- While I was serious about the first part, the 2nd part was meant a bit tongue in cheek. The people no longer are in control of the government over hear... It's been bought out by corporations mostly and it's looking worse as time goes on...
/Per
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On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 09:51, Per Jessen <per@opensuse.org> wrote:
Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind. It doesn't matter whether it might affect the project or not. If we had seen a discussion of SOPA on opensuse-general or -factory, it would have been fairly quickly relegated to opensuse-offtopic.
It's a very fine line, but I support the decision 100%. This is not some grumpy obscure country/government saying we don't want your website in our country (eg what China does with the Great Firewall), this is a grumpy not-so-obscure country/government potentially saying we don't want your website available to anyone regardless of where you are. Sometimes we as a community need to stand up and say hang on a sec there... and this is one of those times. C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/01/12 20:31, C wrote:
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 09:51, Per Jessen<per@opensuse.org> wrote:
Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind. It doesn't matter whether it might affect the project or not. If we had seen a discussion of SOPA on opensuse-general or -factory, it would have been fairly quickly relegated to opensuse-offtopic. It's a very fine line, but I support the decision 100%.
This is not some grumpy obscure country/government saying we don't want your website in our country (eg what China does with the Great Firewall), this is a grumpy not-so-obscure country/government potentially saying we don't want your website available to anyone regardless of where you are.
Sometimes we as a community need to stand up and say hang on a sec there... and this is one of those times.
C I agree.
BC -- It is in the nature of things that every time you try to avoid one danger you run into another. Niccolo Machiavelli -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Basil Chupin wrote:
On 18/01/12 20:31, C wrote:
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 09:51, Per Jessen<per@opensuse.org> wrote:
Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind. It doesn't matter whether it might affect the project or not. If we had seen a discussion of SOPA on opensuse-general or -factory, it would have been fairly quickly relegated to opensuse-offtopic. It's a very fine line, but I support the decision 100%.
This is not some grumpy obscure country/government saying we don't want your website in our country (eg what China does with the Great Firewall), this is a grumpy not-so-obscure country/government potentially saying we don't want your website available to anyone regardless of where you are.
Sometimes we as a community need to stand up and say hang on a sec there... and this is one of those times.
C I agree.
BC
I think it would be a waste of everybodys time trying to decide when it is "one of those times". I sincerely hope openSUSE will not continue down this slippery slope. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (0.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, January 18, 2012 11:55 am, Per Jessen wrote:
Basil Chupin wrote:
On 18/01/12 20:31, C wrote:
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 09:51, Per Jessen<per@opensuse.org> wrote:
Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind. It doesn't matter whether it might affect the project or not. If we had seen a discussion of SOPA on opensuse-general or -factory, it would have been fairly quickly relegated to opensuse-offtopic. It's a very fine line, but I support the decision 100%.
This is not some grumpy obscure country/government saying we don't want your website in our country (eg what China does with the Great Firewall), this is a grumpy not-so-obscure country/government potentially saying we don't want your website available to anyone regardless of where you are.
Sometimes we as a community need to stand up and say hang on a sec there... and this is one of those times.
C I agree.
BC
I think it would be a waste of everybodys time trying to decide when it is "one of those times". I sincerely hope openSUSE will not continue down this slippery slope.
Isn't it the openSUSE:Board that decides? I wonder why you think it's a slippery slope?
-- Per Jessen, Zürich (0.4°C)
Regards, Joop.
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On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 12:08 +0100, Joop Boonen wrote:
I think it would be a waste of everybodys time trying to decide when it is "one of those times". I sincerely hope openSUSE will not continue down this slippery slope.
Isn't it the openSUSE:Board that decides?
I wonder why you think it's a slippery slope?
Well, political statements ARE slippery by nature. Ought I to publicly state that I fully support PIPA and SOPA, would that mean that I can't be part of the openSUSE project anymore? Which kind of political propaganda do we support? Connecting to 'The Pirate Bay' from within the Netherlands gives me a big banner currently that several providers in this country are stepping away from net-neutrality and are starting to block (censor!) parts of the internet. Not too different from the current statements, nobody in the openSUSE Board cares for it. As you see, the question if / when openSUSE should engage in such statements is surely difficult. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 12:08 +0100, Joop Boonen wrote:
I think it would be a waste of everybodys time trying to decide when it is "one of those times". I sincerely hope openSUSE will not continue down this slippery slope.
Isn't it the openSUSE:Board that decides?
I wonder why you think it's a slippery slope?
Well, political statements ARE slippery by nature.
Ought I to publicly state that I fully support PIPA and SOPA, would that mean that I can't be part of the openSUSE project anymore?
Silly question - you would clearly be in strong disagreement with the board, so presumably you would leave without having to be encouraged. :-)
Which kind of political propaganda do we support? Connecting to 'The Pirate Bay' from within the Netherlands gives me a big banner currently that several providers in this country are stepping away from net-neutrality and are starting to block (censor!) parts of the internet.
Not too different from the current statements, nobody in the openSUSE Board cares for it.
As you see, the question if / when openSUSE should engage in such statements is surely difficult.
I disagree, it's not difficult it all. Just say no. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 12:56 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
Silly question - you would clearly be in strong disagreement with the board, so presumably you would leave without having to be encouraged. :-)
Aha! So we're open to political views and believes as a project :P
Which kind of political propaganda do we support? Connecting to 'The Pirate Bay' from within the Netherlands gives me a big banner currently that several providers in this country are stepping away from net-neutrality and are starting to block (censor!) parts of the internet.
Not too different from the current statements, nobody in the openSUSE Board cares for it.
As you see, the question if / when openSUSE should engage in such statements is surely difficult.
I disagree, it's not difficult it all. Just say no.
Errr. right, I forgot to mention 'if we engage in political statements' Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, January 18, 2012 12:21 pm, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
On Wed, 2012-01-18 at 12:08 +0100, Joop Boonen wrote:
I think it would be a waste of everybodys time trying to decide when
it
is "one of those times". I sincerely hope openSUSE will not continue down this slippery slope.
Isn't it the openSUSE:Board that decides?
I wonder why you think it's a slippery slope?
Well, political statements ARE slippery by nature.
Ought I to publicly state that I fully support PIPA and SOPA, would that mean that I can't be part of the openSUSE project anymore?
Why I don't see this, openSUSE has open in the name. Why shouldn't anyone be allowed in the community that doesn't have (exactly) the same ideas as most other community members.
Which kind of political propaganda do we support? Connecting to 'The Pirate Bay' from within the Netherlands gives me a big banner currently that several providers in this country are stepping away from net-neutrality and are starting to block (censor!) parts of the internet.
Not too different from the current statements, nobody in the openSUSE Board cares for it.
I think it's different. I'm Dutch and I live in the Netherlands I don't agree with blocking the pirate bay. Not because I'm pro pirate bay but because I'm pro open internet. I think Internationally there is a major difference between blocking pirate bay in the Netherlands and SOPA in the US. The US has a major influence on the world, the Netherlands doesn't.
As you see, the question if / when openSUSE should engage in such statements is surely difficult.
I agree it's difficult. I think they should for such a major issue. I also think openSUSE shouldn't become an activist platform. But they should stand up for their rights i.e. fight against things that might be used against them.
Dominique
Regards, Joop.
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Joop Boonen wrote:
On Wed, January 18, 2012 11:55 am, Per Jessen wrote:
Basil Chupin wrote:
On 18/01/12 20:31, C wrote:
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 09:51, Per Jessen<per@opensuse.org> wrote:
Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind. It doesn't matter whether it might affect the project or not. If we had seen a discussion of SOPA on opensuse-general or -factory, it would have been fairly quickly relegated to opensuse-offtopic. It's a very fine line, but I support the decision 100%.
This is not some grumpy obscure country/government saying we don't want your website in our country (eg what China does with the Great Firewall), this is a grumpy not-so-obscure country/government potentially saying we don't want your website available to anyone regardless of where you are.
Sometimes we as a community need to stand up and say hang on a sec there... and this is one of those times.
C I agree.
BC
I think it would be a waste of everybodys time trying to decide when it is "one of those times". I sincerely hope openSUSE will not continue down this slippery slope.
Isn't it the openSUSE:Board that decides?
In this case it clearly it was, but I am not aware that the board has been given that responsibility.
I wonder why you think it's a slippery slope?
If we don't stop right away, it just that. In my opinion, for a volunteer organisation to take a stance (on behalf of its members) on a topic that does essentially not concern it, is a very slippery slope. If we start down that path, we will soon be participating in protests on scores of other themes that are very important to people around the world. (gm foods, green energy, global warming, immigration policies, nuclear power, whathaveyou). It's simply best to leave all of those to the individual members. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 12:53, Per Jessen <per@opensuse.org> wrote:
world. (gm foods, green energy, global warming, immigration policies, nuclear power, whathaveyou). It's simply best to leave all of those to the individual members.
While I don't dispute that individual protests are best left to the individual, it's quite a stretch to relate global internet censorship which can affect us (for example Megacorp in the the country in question decides that Random Linux Distro is infringing on their imaginary IP and uses SOAP/PIPA to permanently take the site down) vs individual unrelated causes like GM food, global warming etc which have no impact on openSUSE at all. ie I can't use my GM modified corn, Silly Immigration Act #42, or Anti-BadGuy border control policy to block openSUSE... but I could with SOPA and related ill-conceived legislation. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 2012-01-18 11:55:50 (+0100), Per Jessen <per@opensuse.org> wrote: [...]
I think it would be a waste of everybodys time trying to decide when it is "one of those times". I sincerely hope openSUSE will not continue down this slippery slope.
Painting a single action and decision as a "slippery slope" is an "interesting" way of putting things. cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser /\\ http://opensuse.org -- we haz green _\_v http://fosdem.org -- we haz conf
Pascal Bleser wrote:
On 2012-01-18 11:55:50 (+0100), Per Jessen <per@opensuse.org> wrote: [...]
I think it would be a waste of everybodys time trying to decide when it is "one of those times". I sincerely hope openSUSE will not continue down this slippery slope.
Painting a single action and decision as a "slippery slope" is an "interesting" way of putting things.
That is the only way to step on to a slippery slope - with the first step. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
BC
I think it would be a waste of everybodys time trying to decide when it is "one of those times". I sincerely hope openSUSE will not continue down this slippery slope.
An open source project in itself is a political statement. The slippery road is the one SOPA supporters are going down. Swapnil -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
2012/1/18 Swapnil Bhartiya <swapnil.bhartiya@gmail.com>:
BC
I think it would be a waste of everybodys time trying to decide when it is "one of those times". I sincerely hope openSUSE will not continue down this slippery slope.
An open source project in itself is a political statement. The slippery road is the one SOPA supporters are going down.
+1
Swapnil
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On Wed 18 Jan 2012 09:51:22 Per Jessen wrote:
Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind. It doesn't matter whether it might affect the project or not. If we had seen a discussion of SOPA on opensuse-general or -factory, it would have been fairly quickly relegated to opensuse-offtopic.
Hi Per, of course we shall remember Niemoller's words... ...then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me... and of course opensuse makes political statements against censorship and privacy infringements... then why would you find in the official distro tor? Alin -- Without Questions there are no Answers! ______________________________________________________________________ Alin Marin ELENA Advanced Molecular Simulation Research Laboratory School of Physics, University College Dublin ---- Ardionsamblú Móilíneach Saotharlann Taighde Scoil na Fisice, An Coláiste Ollscoile, Baile Átha Cliath ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://alin.elenaworld.net ______________________________________________________________________ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Alin M Elena wrote:
On Wed 18 Jan 2012 09:51:22 Per Jessen wrote:
Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind. It doesn't matter whether it might affect the project or not. If we had seen a discussion of SOPA on opensuse-general or -factory, it would have been fairly quickly relegated to opensuse-offtopic.
Hi Per,
of course we shall remember Niemoller's words...
...then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me...
and of course opensuse makes political statements against censorship and privacy infringements... then why would you find in the official distro tor?
Alin, IF that is a political statement, we should have restrained our statement today in a similar way - perhaps like http://de.wikipedia.org does, even better as on http://da.wikipedia.org or http://fr.wikipedia.org -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2012-01-18 at 09:51 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind. It doesn't matter whether it might affect the project or not. If we had seen a discussion of SOPA on opensuse-general or -factory, it would have been fairly quickly relegated to opensuse-offtopic.
I'm not sure that moving to a page that request me to write to the parliament, when I'm not a USA citizen, is very correct. On the other hand, I think that the membership in full should have been asked prior to choosing such a polemic road. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk8W0cUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UWRACfdnR4ZF8bNSxrv6CHPHyfQ3xJ qQkAn115xwRobJbZuDEI7NeOTk8GGSxL =yBH4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, January 18, 2012 3:05 pm, Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On Wednesday, 2012-01-18 at 09:51 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind. It doesn't matter whether it might affect the project or not. If we had seen a discussion of SOPA on opensuse-general or -factory, it would have been fairly quickly relegated to opensuse-offtopic.
I'm not sure that moving to a page that request me to write to the parliament, when I'm not a USA citizen, is very correct.
As a non US citizen you can still sign the petition. Not In The US? Petition The State Department. -> http://americancensorship.org/modal/state-dept-petition/index.html
On the other hand, I think that the membership in full should have been asked prior to choosing such a polemic road.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)
Regards, Joop.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux)
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Per Jessen wrote:
Just my opinion - I think openSUSE should stay far away from politics of any kind. It doesn't matter whether it might affect the project or not. If we had seen a discussion of SOPA on opensuse-general or -factory, it would have been fairly quickly relegated to opensuse-offtopic.
Many thanks to everyone who chipped im - I have written to the board and made a proposal to amend the openSUSE Guiding Principles to explicitly state our position on activism of any kind. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-4.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
participants (12)
-
Alin M Elena -
Basil Chupin -
C -
Carlos E. R. -
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger -
Joop Boonen -
Joop Boonen -
Kostas Koudaras -
Linda Walsh -
Pascal Bleser -
Per Jessen -
Swapnil Bhartiya