Re: [opensuse-project] stupid 12.1
Hi Albert, As your email focuses very much on gnome, I'm CC'ing this reply to the opensuse-gnome mailinglist so my fellow gnomers can read your feedback. 1. Differences: In my opinion, the responsibility of a project like ours, producing Linux distributions, is to provide a solid, stable, integrated collection of current/cutting edge FOSS software, tweaked and tuned for our users. We shouldn't be changing things just for the sake of changing things. I believe, our implementation of GNOME 3 improves on the current status of the upstream project. It's good to start with, but we made a number of improvements that you don't find in other GNOME3's - For example the Shutdown menu was changed to make Power Off/Restarting and Hibernation easier to access. We install the gnome-tweak-tool by default, and YaST is smoothly integrated into the System Settings Yes, we could do more, we on the openSUSE gnome team are always looking for new ideas and new people to help out implementing them. It's easy, and if you're interested in helping out, please join the opensuse-gnome mailing list and/or #opensuse-gnome IRC channel and say hello 2. gnome2-like environment This is actually called 'fallback mode' It's intended to provide a basic, working environment for when 3D acceleration is not available. As you've noticed, it currently looks like 'vanilla' gnome2, but it is not really intended as an alternative to the gnome-shell mode for those who don't like it - there are efforts to get gnome-shell working without 3D acceleration, and I would not be surprised if fallback mode disappears if these efforts bear fruit. Again, offering my opinion - I personally believe it would be stupid for SUSE/openSUSE to throw good development time behind an effort to enhance fallback mode when it is clearly not the direction of upstream GNOME That said, I do know there was someone working on porting the SLAB menu to gtk3 so it could work in fallback mode And you might be interested in http://extensions.gnome.org - a recently launched service from upstream GNOME that provides a large collection of gnome shell extensions that let you customise the gnome3 environment (not fallback mode). Several of the extensions provide features and functionality which used to be in gnome2. 3. Progress GNOME 3 is progress. gnome-shell is a very different desktop environment, and your certainly not the first to express their dislike for it - but if you want a traditional taskbar/start menu orientated environment, there are great alternatives out there (KDE, xfce, lxde) all supported by openSUSE - we're a distro of choice for precisely this kind of scenario. But please keep in mind that there are also many keen users and keen developers spending a lot of time on GNOME 3. I don't think calling our chosen desktop environment and efforts to improve it 'stupid' is a very productive way forward. Helping out in our gnome team with constructive ideas (you don't need to be a developer for that) or packaging and code would be a much bigger help. So if you truly are a SUSE lover and want our gnome installation to better suit your tastes, I look forward to seeing your contributions soon :) Regards A fellow SUSE lover
Albert 12/21/11 10:00 AM >>> I've used SUSE for more than six years and each new version coming out always give me surprising more or less. However, I found the most recent 12.1 is really disappointed, especially the gnome desktop:
1. I don't find any difference and surprise with this gnome3 while comparing with other linux distribution. 2. When I switch to gnome2-like environment, I am getting very angry. How can SUSE become as stupid as Ubuntu? The gnome2-like environment is almost the same as Ubuntu..... The menu, the task bar color and so on. Why can't SUSE keep its own uniques? The SUSE menu in 10.0 till 11.4 is quit nice and creative. Why did this 12.1 switch to stupid Ubuntu like style? 3. What's worse. The workspace switcher in gnome2-like environment is the same as 10.0 version: when we use "only show current workspace", it can only show ONE workspace, and others are all gone...... 12.1, Progress or backwards? To be honest as a Linux user, the stupid gnome3 don't have even a little tinny tiny attraction to me. I do hope the SUSE developer can design SUSE from the aspects of users. If I were a SUSE developer, I will pay more attention to the stability and general interface of SUSE. May SUSE a bright future. A SUSE Lover -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org This Christmas, why not provide a loved one with the perfect opportunity to learn a new skill, make new friends, earn a qualification that could lead to a change in career or impress their current employers? City College Gift Vouchers, redeemable against any of our exciting range of Part-time and Adult Community Learning courses, are available at the Finance Department, 2nd Floor, Central Campus, Pelham Street, Brighton. www.ccb.ac.uk -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le mercredi 21 décembre 2011, à 10:28 +0000, Richard Brown a écrit :
Hi Albert,
As your email focuses very much on gnome, I'm CC'ing this reply to the opensuse-gnome mailinglist so my fellow gnomers can read your feedback.
Thanks, I encourage everyone interested in the discussion to participate to it on the opensuse-gnome mailing list, as I'm afraid it's off-topic for opensuse-project. Albert: I'll reply to your points there. Cheers, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Dear Richard: Thank for this detailed explanations. First, I have to say I am a SUSE zealous but not a SUSE madness. I am quit clear why I use SUSE. The reason for this is that SUSE is more stable than any other open source distribution such as Ubuntu or Fedora.
From the openSUSE 11.0, SLED 10.0 till recent 11.4, I have seen SUSE improved a lot in stability. As a computational scientist, I have to admit, I am quit happy with previous version of SUSE, especially considering my professional software cannot run well in other distribution and they work fine under SUSE.
Moreover, the CG of SUSE also improved a lot especially after openSUSE 11.0, although I prefer Novell classic blue theme which I missed for a long time because it is quit simple and clear, and completely different from nowadays so called gorgeous. However, for the most recent 12.1, I really cannot agree with you. As a user, each time before I switch to a new OS, I have to ask some questions such as: why should I switch to it? is there anything attractive enough for me? is it worth to do so especially considering I have to spend lots of time to configure the compiler and software that I daily use? is it more easier to use? is it stable enough? I can't give "YES" to those questions for 12.1. My deepest impression for this GNOME SHELL(GS) is: gaudy and this maybe the same for all GS distribution. To my way of thinking, it is much more suitable for tablet but not for office or daily computational work. To be honest, the CG of Gnome shell is not my type. To me, it is even ugly. I now the OS for IPAD is quit popular and hot for many people, probably the GS spirits comes from IPAD OS. If we believe that it can also lead to an OS to be successful, I am have to say it's pity, such kind of thoughts are so NOT stupid and naive. It even lacks our own thoughts and creativity. I can hardly believe such kind of OS can last for a long time. For the interface itself, why not provide an option during installtion for user to choose GNOME2.X or GNOME3.X? At present, I don't find anything that 3.X is superior than 2.X. And I don't think the GNOME SHELL is better than GNOME 2.X just because it labeled with "3". For the "upstream project" stuff you mentioned, if I were you, I can appropriate that the 3.x is just released and there are lots of things to be improved. But if something is not so good in essence, no matter how to "improve", it cannot change too much for its demerits. Although I am not Steven Jobs, I can still have my own mind to do something big different from others. I don't like stuff that the same with others. For example: if we put all Linux distribution together with default 2.X theme, I can tell which one is SUSE at first galence. But now, when I first saw the SUSE 3.X, I cannot differentiate SUSE with any other distribution. When I switch to fallback mode, I even believe that I was using stupid Ubuntu. What a sad it is. I believe that there are lots of SUSE zealous and some of them are SUSE madness who is even not clear why the use SUSE or a OS and they switch to a new distribution as soon as it come out. I am sorry I am not such kind of person. However, as a SUSE zealous, I do hope the new version can be my option in the near future since all software are updating sooner or later and I will definitely need my OS to be updated later. Of course, I do hope SUSE would be always my primary choice. Best wishes to SUSE On 12/21/2011 11:28 AM, Richard Brown wrote:
Hi Albert,
As your email focuses very much on gnome, I'm CC'ing this reply to the opensuse-gnome mailinglist so my fellow gnomers can read your feedback.
1. Differences: In my opinion, the responsibility of a project like ours, producing Linux distributions, is to provide a solid, stable, integrated collection of current/cutting edge FOSS software, tweaked and tuned for our users. We shouldn't be changing things just for the sake of changing things.
I believe, our implementation of GNOME 3 improves on the current status of the upstream project. It's good to start with, but we made a number of improvements that you don't find in other GNOME3's - For example the Shutdown menu was changed to make Power Off/Restarting and Hibernation easier to access. We install the gnome-tweak-tool by default, and YaST is smoothly integrated into the System Settings
Yes, we could do more, we on the openSUSE gnome team are always looking for new ideas and new people to help out implementing them. It's easy, and if you're interested in helping out, please join the opensuse-gnome mailing list and/or #opensuse-gnome IRC channel and say hello
2. gnome2-like environment This is actually called 'fallback mode' It's intended to provide a basic, working environment for when 3D acceleration is not available. As you've noticed, it currently looks like 'vanilla' gnome2, but it is not really intended as an alternative to the gnome-shell mode for those who don't like it - there are efforts to get gnome-shell working without 3D acceleration, and I would not be surprised if fallback mode disappears if these efforts bear fruit.
Again, offering my opinion - I personally believe it would be stupid for SUSE/openSUSE to throw good development time behind an effort to enhance fallback mode when it is clearly not the direction of upstream GNOME That said, I do know there was someone working on porting the SLAB menu to gtk3 so it could work in fallback mode
And you might be interested in http://extensions.gnome.org - a recently launched service from upstream GNOME that provides a large collection of gnome shell extensions that let you customise the gnome3 environment (not fallback mode). Several of the extensions provide features and functionality which used to be in gnome2.
3. Progress
GNOME 3 is progress. gnome-shell is a very different desktop environment, and your certainly not the first to express their dislike for it - but if you want a traditional taskbar/start menu orientated environment, there are great alternatives out there (KDE, xfce, lxde) all supported by openSUSE - we're a distro of choice for precisely this kind of scenario.
But please keep in mind that there are also many keen users and keen developers spending a lot of time on GNOME 3. I don't think calling our chosen desktop environment and efforts to improve it 'stupid' is a very productive way forward. Helping out in our gnome team with constructive ideas (you don't need to be a developer for that) or packaging and code would be a much bigger help.
So if you truly are a SUSE lover and want our gnome installation to better suit your tastes, I look forward to seeing your contributions soon :)
Regards
A fellow SUSE lover
Albert 12/21/11 10:00 AM >>> I've used SUSE for more than six years and each new version coming out always give me surprising more or less. However, I found the most recent 12.1 is really disappointed, especially the gnome desktop:
1. I don't find any difference and surprise with this gnome3 while comparing with other linux distribution.
2. When I switch to gnome2-like environment, I am getting very angry. How can SUSE become as stupid as Ubuntu? The gnome2-like environment is almost the same as Ubuntu..... The menu, the task bar color and so on. Why can't SUSE keep its own uniques? The SUSE menu in 10.0 till 11.4 is quit nice and creative. Why did this 12.1 switch to stupid Ubuntu like style?
3. What's worse. The workspace switcher in gnome2-like environment is the same as 10.0 version: when we use "only show current workspace", it can only show ONE workspace, and others are all gone......
12.1, Progress or backwards?
To be honest as a Linux user, the stupid gnome3 don't have even a little tinny tiny attraction to me. I do hope the SUSE developer can design SUSE from the aspects of users. If I were a SUSE developer, I will pay more attention to the stability and general interface of SUSE.
May SUSE a bright future.
A SUSE Lover
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 10:38, Albert <mailmd2011@gmail.com> wrote:
For the interface itself, why not provide an option during installtion for user to choose GNOME2.X or GNOME3.X?
The simple answer to this is... Gnome2.x is no longer developed, no longer supported, and deprecated. It's no longer an option. openSUSE as a project goes not have enough volunteers to officially maintain a fork of the old unmaintained Gnome2 codebase. This is not to say a community member or group could not step up and do this... but as an official part of openSUSE, it's not going to happen - at least not with the old Gnome2. C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-12-22 10:54, C wrote:
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 10:38, Albert <mailmd2011@gmail.com> wrote:
For the interface itself, why not provide an option during installtion for user to choose GNOME2.X or GNOME3.X?
The simple answer to this is... Gnome2.x is no longer developed, no longer supported, and deprecated. It's no longer an option. openSUSE
https://features.opensuse.org/312946 Mate repo for openSUSE - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk7zBz4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VLsgCdHSSs5KAq/nzFpPda9PkcnG2z CaEAn2ucuCAwOMzD6vtIrcSPpO8CQQNC =9XAv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 11:32, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
On 2011-12-22 10:54, C wrote:
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 10:38, Albert <mailmd2011@gmail.com> wrote:
For the interface itself, why not provide an option during installtion for user to choose GNOME2.X or GNOME3.X?
The simple answer to this is... Gnome2.x is no longer developed, no longer supported, and deprecated. It's no longer an option. openSUSE
https://features.opensuse.org/312946 Mate repo for openSUSE
The description of MATE (from their own readme) makes me laugh.... "MATE Desktop Environment, a non-intuitive and unattractive desktop for users, using traditional computing desktop metaphor." MATE is not Gnome2... so my comment still stands :-) Gnome2 is museum fodder now. I hope that MATE is a successful project. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 22/12/2011 10:54, C a écrit :
The simple answer to this is... Gnome2.x is no longer developed, no longer supported, and deprecated. It's no longer an option. openSUSE as a project goes not have enough volunteers to officially maintain a fork of the old unmaintained Gnome2 codebase.
just a dumb question: will SLES/SLED go to gnome3? thanks jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/22/11 12:41, jdd wrote:
Le 22/12/2011 10:54, C a écrit :
The simple answer to this is... Gnome2.x is no longer developed, no longer supported, and deprecated. It's no longer an option. openSUSE as a project goes not have enough volunteers to officially maintain a fork of the old unmaintained Gnome2 codebase.
just a dumb question: will SLES/SLED go to gnome3?
thanks
jdd i'm curious about this too.......... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2011-12-22 at 16:27 +0000, Matt Gray wrote:
On 12/22/11 12:41, jdd wrote:
Le 22/12/2011 10:54, C a écrit :
The simple answer to this is... Gnome2.x is no longer developed, no longer supported, and deprecated. It's no longer an option. openSUSE as a project goes not have enough volunteers to officially maintain a fork of the old unmaintained Gnome2 codebase. just a dumb question: will SLES/SLED go to gnome3? i'm curious about this too..........
I know nothing about SLES/SLED. But I'm on the gnome-shell list. "not ready for the enterprise" is a notable recent quote [and while GNOME3 / Shell is *awesome* I'd agree; it has a few issues with stability, handling notification, and administration ] -- System & Network Administrator [ LPI & NCLA ] <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware Developer <http://www.opengroupware.us> Adam Tauno Williams -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
are your sure "awful" is the the same meaning with "awesome"? On 12/22/2011 05:33 PM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Thu, 2011-12-22 at 16:27 +0000, Matt Gray wrote:
On 12/22/11 12:41, jdd wrote:
Le 22/12/2011 10:54, C a écrit :
The simple answer to this is... Gnome2.x is no longer developed, no longer supported, and deprecated. It's no longer an option. openSUSE as a project goes not have enough volunteers to officially maintain a fork of the old unmaintained Gnome2 codebase. just a dumb question: will SLES/SLED go to gnome3? i'm curious about this too.......... I know nothing about SLES/SLED.
But I'm on the gnome-shell list. "not ready for the enterprise" is a notable recent quote [and while GNOME3 / Shell is *awesome* I'd agree; it has a few issues with stability, handling notification, and administration ]
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 04:27:31PM +0000, Matt Gray wrote:
On 12/22/11 12:41, jdd wrote:
Le 22/12/2011 10:54, C a écrit :
The simple answer to this is... Gnome2.x is no longer developed, no longer supported, and deprecated. It's no longer an option. openSUSE as a project goes not have enough volunteers to officially maintain a fork of the old unmaintained Gnome2 codebase.
just a dumb question: will SLES/SLED go to gnome3?
thanks
jdd i'm curious about this too..........
Talk to your SLES/SLED account manager if you are curious, there's nothing we can discuss here, as this is an openSUSE mailing list, sorry. greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
participants (10)
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Adam Tauno Williams -
Albert -
C -
C -
Carlos E. R. -
Greg KH -
jdd -
Matt Gray -
Richard Brown -
Vincent Untz