[opensuse-project] How are we really doing?
I know Distrowatch has its detractors, and for good reasons, but it exists. Is there anything better that remotely resembles what it purports? The following over December 2004 to date is based almost exclusively upon Distrowatch pages: 2004-12 2009-11 2014-12 2019-12 Debian Rank Name Hits Rank Name Hits Chg Rank Name Hits Chg Rank Name Hits Chg 32? based 1 Mandriva 1390 | 1 Ubuntu 2176 +8 | 1 Mint 2325 +2 | 1 MXLinux 4559 New Yes 4559 2 Fedora 1271 | 2 Fedora 1679 +- | 2 Ubuntu 1853 -1 | 2 Manjaro 2573 +16 No No 3 SUSE 9.2 937 | 3 Mint 1359 New | 3 Debian 1581 +3 | 3 Mint 2225 -2 Yes 2225 4 MEPIS 857 | 4 openSUSE 11.2 1350 -1 | 4 OpenSUSE 13.2 1361 +- | 4 Debian 1675 -1 Yes 1675 5 Debian 844 | 5 Mandriva 998 -4 | 5 Fedora 1297 -3 | 5 Ubuntu 1428 -3 Yes 1428 6 Knoppix 810 | 6 Debian 908 -1 | 6 Mageia 1171 * | 6 Elementary 1288 +6 No 1288 7 Slackware 666 | 7 Puppy 836 +22 | 7 CentOS 1169 +5 | 7 Solus 1112 New No No 8 Gentoo 639 | 8 Sabayon 755 New | 8 Arch 1040 +2 | 8 Fedora 959 -3 No No 9 Ubuntu 566 | 9 PCLinuxOS 730 +5 | 9 Elementary 906 New | 9 Zorin 928 +1 No 928 10 Damn Small 489 | 10 Arch 702 +12 | 10 Zorin 810 New | 10 Deepin 878 +7 No 878 11 FreeBSD 398 | 11 Slackware 649 -4 | 11 LXLE 777 New | 11 AntiX 782 +26 Yes 782 12 Yoper 363 | 12 CentOS 607 New | 12 Puppy 748 -5 | 12 KDE Neon 741 New No 741 13 Xandros 361 | 13 FreeBSD 521 -2 | 13 Kali 739 New | 13 CentOS 705 -6 No No 14 PCLinuxOS 357 | 14 Tiny Core 492 New | 14 Lubuntu 730 New | 14 OpenSUSE 15.1 704 -10 No No 15 Vine 289 | 15 MEPIS 472 -11 | 15 Android X86 697 New | 15 PCLinuxOS 679 +1 No No 16 RedHat 282 | 16 Gentoo 439 -8 | 16 PCLinuxOS 662 -7 | 16 ArcoLinux 670 New No No 17 SLAX 273 | 17 Kubuntu 396 New | 17 Deepin 625 New | 17 Pop!_OS 647 New No 647 18 Kanotix 252 | 18 Zenwalk 363 New | 18 Manjaro 591 New | 18 Arch 615 -10 No No 19 Vector 219 | 19 Vector 345 +- | 19 FreeBSD 581 -6 | 19 Kali 488 -6 Yes 488 20 Gnoppix 207 | 20 Ultimate 339 New | 20 Bodhi 550 New | 20 ReactOS 433 +22 Yes No 21 Feather 190 | 20 CrunchBang 339 New | 21 Robolinux 540 New | 21 Mageia 432 -15 Yes No Total 11660 Total 16455 Total 20753 Total 24521 15639 The 32bit column may be a bit misleading, as some distros whose latest releases do include 32bit versions have announced future versions will not include them. e.g. DW lists yes for Fedora, but that's for Fedora's latest-1, out of support in 4 months, not latest, so I listed it as no. 64% of the top 21 distros are Debians (15639/24521), 74% of the top 10 (12981/17625), and 81% of the top 6 (11175/13748). Debian proper support is expected through 2038 at least, and so at least some of its derivatives. I did not try to account for any name changes that I didn't already know about. e.g. the former Mandrake/Connectiva/Mandriva dissolved into three different distros that I'm aware of, with Mageia the apparent strongest of the survivors. There's nothing to make me want to leave, but if I was looking for a distro, the abundance of obsolete or otherwise not up to date wiki pages make openSUSE look to me like a dying distro. Traffic over the past year or more on the support lists and forums seems to have gone way down. Only two stepped up to become candidates for two expiring board positions. Are we doing better than these observations make openSUSE look? -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, (leaving out DW as it's reading coffee grounds, as we say here)
There's nothing to make me want to leave, but if I was looking for a distro, the abundance of obsolete or otherwise not up to date wiki pages make openSUSE look to me like a dying distro.
I'm biased on that one. The wiki is way better that it's reputation but for sure there's much room for improvement. (continued below)
Traffic over the past year or more on the support lists and forums seems to have gone way down.
And in the meantime activity in various chats like Discord, Telegram and Matrix (all being more ore less connected to each other) went up. Furthermore it's attracting new people just wanting to pop in instead of going through the hassle of mailman registration and a flooded inbox. Mailing lists are kinda a blast from the past. Messengers and chat tools have taken over from that. Not that I like it but that's a reality we have to face. People younger than ~20 years are just not used to the legacy tools or may not even know them. Furthermore they might not want have yet another platform to use just to get their toes into the pool.
Only two stepped up to become candidates for two expiring board positions.
I count four persons for two open positions which is okay, I think.
Are we doing better than these observations make openSUSE look?
Yes and no. The things you mention (leaving murky DW figures aside) indeed are a problem. It roots from openSUSE's lack of outreach efforts. Just telling everyone we're "the choice for makers" is a good start but we need to show the world what and that we are making. You might want to scan over my board election notes [1] as I add the following: Positioning openSUSE as the choice for tech savvy people in the front row ("sysadmins, developers and desktop users") delivers quite clear message not only for users but also for people curious to join for non-dev work. That's something wiki, marketing, news etc. departments are suffering from. If we don't start changing that openSUSE of course won't die. But it also won't grow in areas where there's lot of room to grow. Regards, vinz. [1] https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_election_2019_platform_vinzv
On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 4:38 PM Vinzenz Vietzke
Traffic over the past year or more on the support lists and forums seems to have gone way down.
Mailing lists are kinda a blast from the past. Messengers and chat tools have taken over from that. Not that I like it but that's a reality we have to face. People younger than ~20 years are just not used to the legacy tools or may not even know them. Furthermore they might not want have yet another platform to use just to get their toes into the pool.
Engagement in openSUSE mailing lists is quite painful compared to most other distribution lists, because we don't have a nice interaction model for our mailing lists. Compare our lists to Fedora's, and ours are not really searchable, not easily subscribable, and just straight-up not that usable. Stasiek has been planning on helping with making the mailing lists a lot better with a nice openSUSE-flavored theme for HyperKitty and Postorius. The Mailman 3 stack landed in Tumbleweed recently, so that process can begin. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 27. Dezember 2019, 22:47:45 CET schrieb Neal Gompa:
Stasiek has been planning on helping with making the mailing lists a lot better with a nice openSUSE-flavored theme for HyperKitty and Postorius. The Mailman 3 stack landed in Tumbleweed recently, so that process can begin.
That are indeed wonderful news. Thanks a lot for the efforts! vinz.
Neal Gompa composed on 2019-12-27 22:47 (UTC+0100):
Compare our lists to Fedora's, and ours are not really searchable, not easily subscribable, and just straight-up not that usable.
I agree about the searching, but I get around that using site:lists.opensuse.org in the high profile search engines. The subscriptions I find to be just fine, and opensuse.org's threading on the left side better than all alternative presentations that come to mind.
Stasiek has been planning on helping with making the mailing lists a lot better with a nice openSUSE-flavored theme for HyperKitty and Postorius.
Definitely not something I look forward to. I'm very happy I don't need to depend on Fedora's PITA HyperKitty mailing list archives. IMO the best overall mailing list archives are those hosted purely by uncustomized Mailman. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 17:12, Felix Miata
Neal Gompa composed on 2019-12-27 22:47 (UTC+0100):
Compare our lists to Fedora's, and ours are not really searchable, not easily subscribable, and just straight-up not that usable.
I agree about the searching, but I get around that using site:lists.opensuse.org in the high profile search engines. The subscriptions I find to be just fine, and opensuse.org's threading on the left side better than all alternative presentations that come to mind.
Stasiek has been planning on helping with making the mailing lists a lot better with a nice openSUSE-flavored theme for HyperKitty and Postorius.
Definitely not something I look forward to. I'm very happy I don't need to depend on Fedora's PITA HyperKitty mailing list archives. IMO the best overall mailing list archives are those hosted purely by uncustomized Mailman.
Please feel free to post suggestions on their issue tracker. Mailman is an inevitable future though, so you better hurry ;) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Stasiek Michalski composed on 2019-12-27 23:20 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata wrote:
Neal Gompa composed on 2019-12-27 22:47 (UTC+0100):
I agree about the searching, but I get around that using site:lists.opensuse.org in the high profile search engines. The subscriptions I find to be just fine, and opensuse.org's threading on the left side better than all alternative presentations that come to mind.
Stasiek has been planning on helping with making the mailing lists a lot better with a nice openSUSE-flavored theme for HyperKitty and Postorius.
Definitely not something I look forward to. I'm very happy I don't need to depend on Fedora's PITA HyperKitty mailing list archives. IMO the best overall mailing list archives are those hosted purely by uncustomized Mailman.
Please feel free to post suggestions on their issue tracker.
On which issue tracker? I hope you don't mean https://bugzilla.redhat.com/. Not counting timeouts on B.O.O.[1], that provides the most miserable implementation of Bugzilla searching I've ever had to deal with.
Mailman is an inevitable future though, so you better hurry ;)
I cannot grok this response. [1] https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1100506 -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 27. Dezember 2019, 23:55:52 CET schrieb Felix Miata:
Please feel free to post suggestions on their issue tracker.
On which issue tracker? I hope you don't mean https://bugzilla.redhat.com/. Not counting timeouts on B.O.O.[1], that provides the most miserable implementation of Bugzilla searching I've ever had to deal with.
The official mailman bugtracker is at https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman Yeah, launchpad... *sighs* vinz.
On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 6:02 PM Vinzenz Vietzke
Am Freitag, 27. Dezember 2019, 23:55:52 CET schrieb Felix Miata:
Please feel free to post suggestions on their issue tracker.
On which issue tracker? I hope you don't mean https://bugzilla.redhat.com/. Not counting timeouts on B.O.O.[1], that provides the most miserable implementation of Bugzilla searching I've ever had to deal with.
The official mailman bugtracker is at https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman
Yeah, launchpad... *sighs*
Mailman left Launchpad a few years ago. Issue tracking is now on GitLab.com: https://gitlab.com/groups/mailman/-/issues -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 27. Dezember 2019, 23:12:38 CET schrieb Felix Miata:
purely by uncustomized Mailman
Yes, that's something I prefer as well. Especially the version from Mailman 3: https://wiki.list.org/Mailman3 You can try that live here: https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org/ Regards, vinz.
Neal Gompa wrote:
Compare our lists to Fedora's, and ours are not really searchable, not easily subscribable, and just straight-up not that usable.
Overall, I disagree with that. Our mailing list manager does not have a web interface, that's all.
Stasiek has been planning on helping with making the mailing lists a lot better with a nice openSUSE-flavored theme for HyperKitty and Postorius. The Mailman 3 stack landed in Tumbleweed recently, so that process can begin.
We have an open issue on that, have had for a while. We will need Mailman3 for Leap though. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-0.2°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 29/12/2019 à 17:07, Per Jessen a écrit :
Overall, I disagree with that. Our mailing list manager does not have a web interface, that's all.
?? the one on lists.opensuse.org works jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 29/12/2019 à 17:07, Per Jessen a écrit :
Overall, I disagree with that. Our mailing list manager does not have a web interface, that's all.
?? the one on lists.opensuse.org works
Compare to the web interface for e.g. mailman, and you will see what I mean. Only having access by email is a drawback, I agree. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.5°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 29/12/2019 à 17:54, Per Jessen a écrit :
jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 29/12/2019 à 17:07, Per Jessen a écrit :
Overall, I disagree with that. Our mailing list manager does not have a web interface, that's all.
?? the one on lists.opensuse.org works
Compare to the web interface for e.g. mailman, and you will see what I mean. Only having access by email is a drawback, I agree.
? this kind ov mailman archives? https://culte.org/listes/linux-31/index.html jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 29/12/2019 à 17:54, Per Jessen a écrit :
jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 29/12/2019 à 17:07, Per Jessen a écrit :
Overall, I disagree with that. Our mailing list manager does not have a web interface, that's all.
?? the one on lists.opensuse.org works
Compare to the web interface for e.g. mailman, and you will see what I mean. Only having access by email is a drawback, I agree.
?
this kind ov mailman archives?
No, not the archives, I mean the the web interface for subscribing and unsubscribing and managing your subscriptions. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-0.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 17:07, Per Jessen
Neal Gompa wrote:
Compare our lists to Fedora's, and ours are not really searchable, not easily subscribable, and just straight-up not that usable.
Overall, I disagree with that. Our mailing list manager does not have a web interface, that's all.
Stasiek has been planning on helping with making the mailing lists a lot better with a nice openSUSE-flavored theme for HyperKitty and Postorius. The Mailman 3 stack landed in Tumbleweed recently, so that process can begin.
We have an open issue on that, have had for a while. We will need Mailman3 for Leap though.
It seems it was submitted to Factory because of the need for it in SLE, so I assume it will land in Leap 15.2? LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Vinzenz Vietzke composed on 2019-12-27 22:37 (UTC+0100):
And in the meantime activity in various chats like Discord, Telegram and Matrix (all being more ore less connected to each other) went up.
Trying to figure out what these three things are I found https://matrix.org/bridges/ Was this on the right track? If yes, it's a dead end, over my head to understand, even though I've been an IRC user for nearly two decades.
Furthermore it's attracting new people just wanting to pop in instead of going through the hassle of mailman registration and a flooded inbox.
I'd like to know from where this "attraction" stems. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 28. Dezember 2019, 00:05:57 CET schrieb Felix Miata:
Trying to figure out what these three things are I found https://matrix.org/bridges/
Was this on the right track? If yes, it's a dead end, over my head to understand, even though I've been an IRC user for nearly two decades.
Yes, that's the right track. Here's a (very long) explanatory blog post on the whole Matrix thing: https://brendan.abolivier.bzh/enter-the-matrix/ The KDE wikie shows quite good how the whole thing works on the user's side: https://community.kde.org/Matrix In short: Matrix is a decentralized chat system mixing XMPP/Jabber (federation) and IRC (chat rooms) features with added cryptography. Via so bridges and bots you can add ways of interoperability to other chat systems which might even be very walled like e.g. Discord.
Furthermore it's attracting new people just wanting to pop in instead of going through the hassle of mailman registration and a flooded inbox.
I'd like to know from where this "attraction" stems.
I already wrote that. The main reasons I guess are convenience in general and especially on mobile devices. Regards, vinz.
Dear List, Am 27.12.19 um 22:37 schrieb Vinzenz Vietzke:
Mailing lists are kinda a blast from the past. Messengers and chat tools have taken over from that. Not that I like it but that's a reality we have to face. People younger than ~20 years are just not used to the legacy tools or may not even know them. Furthermore they might not want have yet another platform to use just to get their toes into the pool.
As far as messenger tools are concerned I stumbled across the Discord group by accident but joined eventually. I was wondering if there is a Wiki page online where the way on the preferred methods of communication in the openSUSE project are elaborated. Have a good day, Maik "tapwag" Wagner -- Maik Wagner www.linuxandlanguages.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
I was wondering if there is a Wiki page online where the way on the preferred methods of communication in the openSUSE project are elaborated.
We mention IRC and Discord on the Xfce wiki page. I'm not aware of other places. https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Xfce -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi,
I'm not aware of other places.
There's quite a good list here: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels#Other_methods vinz.
participants (8)
-
Felix Miata -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Maik Wagner -
Maurizio Galli -
Neal Gompa -
Per Jessen -
Stasiek Michalski -
Vinzenz Vietzke