Il mercoledì 7 novembre 2007, Stephan Kulow scrisse:

Am Dienstag 06 November 2007 schrieb Daniele:

...

HI guys, after first look I'm very disappointed about live-cd but before start to reporting bug and features request I'd like to hear your opinions.

Hi Daniele,

This list is for non-technical discussions, your list are all technical I think. Hi Stephan, I don't want to debate each single point of my list here. See below..

...

4) I'm wrong or software on live-cd is in the same version of GM ? If so, I don't uderstand why. Releasing live-cd one month after GM without bugfix it's a crazy thing :)

Yes, because the month was for fixing the install. We didn't want a moving target. This is the main point (or big part of it..). After a lot of bad reviews about 10.3, releasing live-cd in this state it's a big mistake and not the right way to do things...

Right way: another RC with all fix. I'm a "suser" since 6.0 and now I'm bored to surf the net and read bad things about my favorite distro. This release doesn't help much, the whole project I mean.. Bye. -- *** Linux user # 198661 ---_ ICQ 33500725 *** *** Home http://www.kailed.net *** *** Powered by openSUSE *** --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hello,

10.3 had a lot of changes - correct and important changes imo. I think this means we're now back on the right path, and hopefully that means there can be more focus on stabilizing, maturing, polishing and optimizing, and less on making huge revolutionary changes to core stuff (like media layout and package management.)

Doing all stuff at once can be a huge success if you are lucky (but it looks more like an experiment), or can leave bad impression about stability, reliability issues (and this happens more often). I can speak only for myself of course -- but after 10.2->10.3 I am afraid of upgrading again like I did before. I need another computer to do it, test and see it for myself, and then decide. And I don't work for NASA or anything like that, just desktop system. (Survey could be here handy -- if users are new/upgrade and if they are happy and about what, and if they are unhappy and about what). Just thinking out loud -- maybe it would be better to focus on core system (thing to be defined) and support it, but support it from A do Z, instead of providing thousands of packages (compare it to Apple, they took a bit of BSD, but made well use of it). Then it would be possible to provide better compatibility, hardware support, and incremental upgrades (and realease would mean just: snapshot of last month set of packages). You can say I am complaining (but I hope I am not), but even if -- it is the _fact_ that upgrades takes more and more time to fix things, while upgrade should be transparent. With incremental upgrade you don't have element of surprise ("wow, what a cool system, million bugs fixed") but on the other hand you don't have element of disappointment ("gee, nothing works") -- but is good for system reliability, you introduce fewer new features, you wait for responses, fix bugs, again introduce new features, and so on. It is easier to track those, maintain project, etc. Ok, too long mail already :-) -- I opt for small moves, developers and user would be more in control of the changes. have a nice day, bye -- Maciej Pilichowski --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Maciej Pilichowski escribió:

With incremental upgrade you don't have element of surprise

Yes you will found a big element of surprise if your concept of "incremental upgrade" is what you described on the thread "opensuse upgrade: newer, faster, worse". The surprise is :"it will not work at all". -- "If eval() is the answer, you're almost certainly asking the wrong question." --Rasmus Lerdorf Cristian Rodríguez R, Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hello, I am merging several answers.

I have adopted the policy of keeping my /home partition separate from my root partition, then simply formatting the root partition and installing the new version freshly over it. It's worked out well (and I noticed that 10.3 by default wants to split / and /home into two partitions!).

It won't help in my case: a) I have to select packages to install just as while upgrade b) I have to restore configuration just as while upgrade

I don't like the idea of an incremental upgrade on OpenSUSE, mostly because of the lack of publicity it generates.

?

With a set release schedule you keep a flow of positive news going out on a fairly regular basis.

Yes you will found a big element of surprise if your concept of "incremental upgrade" is what you described on the thread "opensuse upgrade: newer, faster, worse". The surprise is :"it will not work at all".

I think we don't understand each other. The schedule would be like this: a) new features in yast b) release c) fix bugs d) new features in kernel e) release d) fix bugs and so on. Current release everything -> upgrade can (and it does) change a lot things in system. There are so many that it is hard to reproduce for developers, they are so many it is hard to report them, etc. And I don't see how releasing just new package manager for current system is worse than release the same package manager but with new kernel, installer, KDE, Gnome and thousands of other packages. If new package manager does not work it won't work with the rest as well. And again -- focusing on selected software would help, keeping thousands of packages is asking for trouble (imho).

I have a strong feeling that the first approach is exactly what SLED does, while we live on the "bleeding edge" of things.

Good news then, but I don't have chance to really test SLED -- by test I mean install version X and wait how upgrade to Y works.

I've always gone by the mantra that I should have my production systems at least one version back, unless the current version is very stable.

Very true. But this is probably good for system administrator, for desktop users this policy should be more restrictive. Clone the system, install it on another computer, do upgrade, evaluate, then upgrade for real or not. have a nice day, bye -- Maciej Pilichowski --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hello,

There is big difference between what SLED does and what you suggested to do, you talked about incremental updates **between different products** (aka. opensuse 10.2 --> 10.3)

With incremental updates there is no such thing as "different product" -- there is only one product, constantly evolving. "Release" is just a pick from the continuous line of development and "release" is only for newcomers, because it is always with older software (i.e. if you want to "release" new version you take packages from month before). Of course to make it sense, open/suse should become operating system -- kernel, filesystem, networking, printing, window manager. Period. No games, no fancy chat programs, mp3 players, etc. The mentioned "rest" of the software could be maintained as today -- big "surprise, surprise" releases (as opensuse extras) once in a year. have a nice day, bye PS. Cristian, there is no need to send reply twice. Thank you in advance for keeping only one copy. -- Maciej Pilichowski --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hello,

...

there is only one product, constantly evolving. In that case MS still will be "evolving" windows 3.11 or DOS,

I thought it was clear -- you as a user could get Windows Vista (if you like MS example) or get Win 1.0 (or Win95 -- anything released) and apply _all_ updates to make this Vista (it could be possible that one of the latest updates would mean "download 80% of Vista" and it would be also possible that 90% of downloads are not necessary because the older one is replaced by newer).

That's not the natural way technology evolves, to improve certain areas ,

I differ in opinion.

major changes has to be done,

Do it then -- but not all changes at once.

old stuff simple becomes unmanteniable quickly and the manteniance costs go uphill in such a way that becomes impossible to manage.

There is no conflict here -- minimum upgrade 20070413 is required to run XYZ.

Im still wondering how you think such thing has to be implemented in the real world , where human and monetary resources are limited ,where you have to sell NEW things to pay the bills and fullfill constantly evolving requirements.

Money -- "releases", support, updates. Even if it would be technically possible to get updates from 10 years back to get latest state of the system I would doubt that anyone would like to do it -- instead of getting/buying fresh "release". And for quality product people tend to like to pay.

In short , your proposed scenario is not very realistic.

IMHO it is realistic and while I can't say it is better that current one (because it was not tried), but the current one is failing more and more -- you can still live with it and wait for "surprise" or you can anticipate that it does not have (technically speaking) chance to be successful _AND_ at the same time possible to maintain. Currently it is hardly maintained (supported I should rather say) just because, well, it is not successful. You cannot get both with today's model. have a nice day, bye -- Maciej Pilichowski --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-------------------------------------------------- From: "jdd" <jdd@dodin.org> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 8:31 AM Cc: <opensuse-project@opensuse.org> Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] KDE-LIVE-CD, very bad impressions

Maciej Pilichowski wrote:

...

I thought it was clear -- you as a user could get Windows Vista (if you like MS example) or get Win 1.0 (or Win95 -- anything released) and apply _all_ updates to make this Vista

only in your dream. Vista is not even able to update from XP... no windows version was able to update from the previous one

jdd

--

You could upgrade from the previous one, but not update from the previous one. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Maciej Pilichowski wrote:

__hypothetical__ example! WHAT IF...

ok :-) but do you know any system doing this? computer world is moving very fast, and Linux may be faster. So who can know what will be standard three years in the future? I don't see how a system can follow this. For example, I never even try to update any distro. I just left a 10.1 computer to a new laptop and installed 10.3 on it, never mind to change 10.1 on the old one, even knowing the package manager was much better :-) do we need incremental update at all? ideally I would refuse any update. just security bug fix are ok, no more jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2007/10/27/127022-Claire-Dodin-une-Toulousai... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Andrew Dorney wrote:

jdd wrote:

...

Maciej Pilichowski wrote:

...

__hypothetical__ example! WHAT IF... ok :-)

but do you know any system doing this? http://www.gentoo.org http://www.archlinux.org

I'm not so sure gentoo fits the scope (I already used it). I would go from kde3 to kde4 with many cautions, and same for any major number change in an aplication. and giving this, any distro can compile. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2007/10/27/127022-Claire-Dodin-une-Toulousai... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Maciej Pilichowski escribió:

Do it then -- but not all changes at once.

It is a chain.. if you make a big rework of component FOO , you will probably need to change (A..Z) packages depending on X and those why dependend on the previuos may also need some adaptations. I will give you just an actual example, in order to upgrade the compiler for openSUSE 11 we are currenlty changing more than 800 packages !! -- "If eval() is the answer, you're almost certainly asking the wrong question." --Rasmus Lerdorf Cristian Rodríguez R, Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 11 November 2007 08:04:12 am Maciej Pilichowski wrote:

Hello,

...

I will give you just an actual example, in order to upgrade the compiler for openSUSE 11 we are currenlty changing more than 800 packages !!

And the problem is "solved"?

For me this example is just a proof that something is terribly wrong and it would be rather a good argument to rethink the design of the system. Otherwise in 5 years you will be writting "for opensuse 17 we had to change over 24000 packages". It is pretty obvious the current design does not scale.

While the second part about 24000 packages seems as real, but not so close future, what are alternatives? Gentoo: It has problems too. I was using it for a short time and stopped after some time. Updating (recompiling) world, or adding another USE flag that I thought I don't need on initial installation would lock computer for a long periods. We scream here for too long installation that takes lesser then an hour. Update that keeps system out of service for a day seems to be worse case. Debian, BSD: Testing branch has stability below old SUSE, comparable with openSUSE ;-) Stable is out of fashion. Far too many functions that are considered normal are not there. Small base system: That is OK, but then I have to compile every additional application by myself. Not always a problem, but when it comes it can ruin whole installation. To prevent loss of a lot of work invested in previous compilations one has to keep whole system backups (not only user data) current, and even that can be a lot of work once problem is discovered. SLED/SLES: No fashion, just utility. Updates are well tested, but you can't get them without descent pay. For people that like permanently updated system Factory is good choice. It is also good demonstration how that works. Sometimes it is fantastic and sometimes dangerously broken. There were comments that it should come later, to allow for a more testing time, but that is defeated with reality. Not that time can't be given, but way too many users don't download and install before GM, and there will be no enough testing even if development period is measured with years, not months. I see the same story for a years. For me SUSE is good because I get right balance between new versions, mass of precompiled packages and stability. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 11 November 2007 10:55:29 am Maciej Pilichowski wrote:

ad.a,b,c...) of course with update of X maybe you have to update Y, but it would be a still update of portion of the system, just bigger or smaller, not the entire lengthy process of upgrade which looks like an install

I'm not packager, but I have some idea what is the problem. When Cristian referred to gcc with 800 dependant packages that should be recompiled which translates in word 'updated' from user side, that was example what size can be one incremental update. I guess that it would be even worse with glibc. In case that you have design flaw that impares computer, there is no backward compatibility that will justify not to drop it and create better solution. The result is need for massive changes and update for all packages that use it. This is the case where idea of endless incremental update will become one large update, and that is exactly what we have now. If you like incremental update than use software repositories of openSUSE Build Service. For instance, I have often new version of KDE before official release. What is that if not incremental update? It is just not officially supported by Novell/SUSE, they don't patch such versions. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. escribió:

When Cristian referred to gcc with 800 dependant packages that should be recompiled which translates in word 'updated' from user side, that was example what size can be one incremental update.

No, what I told was we had to **change** 800 packages, that is, modify the **source code** in order to allow them to be compiled again, packages are always recompiled when a dependant package is modified, that's no news. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

I answer to incremental update, ok? I assume you were using 10.2 before 10.3. Would it be any harm to you (your system), if instead of upgrading/(re)installing whole 10.3 over 10.2, you did the following (using 10.2 all the time): a) update boot mechanism to boot faster (in June) b) update Yast SM to faster version (in July) c) update regular KMail to KMail Enterprise (...and so on) d) update KDE 3.5.7 to 3.5.8 e) ...

And while doing and testing all that, in each time would they make the new version? From midnight to 6AM, instead of sleeping? With what resources they would do what they already do, which is to make a new release and maintain the bugfix/security of previous ***AND*** do backports and tests like that? Because if you dont want backport and tests there are new packages in the buildservice, and people with upgraditis that does not understand what is a stable system use them like madness Are you a software engineer or your pulling all that from thin air? How do you know this is the "way it should be done" ? Its funny from time to time someone joins the mail list and start giving orders and complained like the guy was hired to do some auditing in the "company", like the zealots coming say "oh, why opensuse doesnt use apt-get", and the guy doesnt even know the difference between two package managers in linux.... Just because a distro does some practice doesnt mean all distros should. And this way of thinking that all distros should do the same thing is silly, because the nice thing in linux is that there are lots of distros doing things in different ways. And the opensuse release cycle works for opensuse, and we all like it, so no incremental would suck a lot and you saying "its easy" doesnt make it any more easy or feasible, you talk like it was magic "oh upgrade kmail" and use magic wand and boom, kmail is updated. Doesnt work like that in planet earth... You say "incremental updates" like nobody on earth would need to move one finger to make it happen, like it would be no cost of time, dollars and engineering. Its easy to create trouble and work you are not going to solve, or point the solution Marcio

In other words -- what do you need whole new version of opensuse for?

have a nice day, bye

ad.a,b,c...) of course with update of X maybe you have to update Y, but it would be a still update of portion of the system, just bigger or smaller, not the entire lengthy process of upgrade which looks like an install -- Maciej Pilichowski

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PS.

...

Do it then -- but not all changes at once. It is a chain..

I forgot to mention -- this issue is just slightly related to "incremental upgrade vs. total release". Dependencies will exist no matter which one method you choose. -- Maciej Pilichowski --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Il giovedì 8 novembre 2007, Stephan Kulow scrisse:

Am Mittwoch 07 November 2007 schrieb Daniele:

...

I'm a "suser" since 6.0 and now I'm bored to surf the net and read bad things about my favorite distro. This release doesn't help much, the whole project I mean..

No problem, read the good things and be happy: http://wadejolson.wordpress.com/2007/11/07/wait-whats-going-on-here/ Good reviews are lesser then bad.. http://news.opensuse.org/?p=489 here too...

What are the bad reviews bugs you want to see fixed? Have they a bugzilla entry? http://en.opensuse.org/Reviews/10_3/Comments and never minds if some of them are false, partially true or whatever..

http://en.opensuse.org/Distro_Inspirations it seems that other distro do a lot of things better.. For me 10.3 is a good release but after 10.1 (AKA zmd-disaster), 10.2 (AKA The day after: the hope) a "good" release is not enough and live-cd are not so good... It's easy to find post/blog entry like: suse i slow, suse doesn't have a good package manager (partially true..), opensuse is beta-testing for commercial version, installer is slow, missing this, doesn't do that and so on.. Bye. -- *** Linux user # 198661 ---_ ICQ 33500725 *** *** Home http://www.kailed.net *** *** Powered by openSUSE *** --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow wrote:

christmas is very much possible. It will still have a slower package manager than debian though. It's something where we can improve for 11.0, but it's nothing we have to be take down 10.3 for.

openSUSE 10.3 package manager is near perfect... much much improved comparing to 10.2 one and very fast jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2007/10/27/127022-Claire-Dodin-une-Toulousai... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Il venerdì 9 novembre 2007, Stephan Kulow scrisse:

Yes, sure. It's near perfect and very fast. It just tends to degrade if you actually use it :)

And of course it's a vast improvement over 10.2's package manager, it's just that the day is limited to 24 hours, so 10.3's package manager had to be left at "near perfect".

Yes big improvement but after a crappy version it's easy to do big improvements. Missing features: 1) keep downloaded packages 2) download-only mode Improvements required: 1) better feedback/ouput from zypper like in smart. Clear and readble. 2) better/alternative workflow: now download->install-download->install and so on. Switch to download all packages and then start installation (like in smart or apt) Still missing a runtime upgrade like in Debian. Reading zypper ML seems that developers are aware of these things. So good hopes for 11.0 Bye. -- *** Linux user # 198661 ---_ ICQ 33500725 *** *** Home http://www.kailed.net *** *** Powered by openSUSE *** --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am Samstag 10 November 2007 schrieb Daniele:

Il venerdì 9 novembre 2007, Stephan Kulow scrisse:

...

Everyone has have a complaint about something else. I can't see a common pattern. Some want a DVD, others want a faster download. So what is your conclusion - provide a supercompressed DVD?

Don't release iso with know bugs.

Yeah, right! And somewhen in 2012 everyone will have lost interest and then we'll release 11.0 because no-one left to test and file bug reports. And _then_ we have a great release with the latest, greatest that 2007 could offer. Sorry, but known bugs are just part of everyone's life in software development. And if your tv card is likely not to work, better stay on factory and always send a patch whenever it breaks. The more developers on factory the better. Greetings, Stephan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007, Daniele wrote:

Don't release iso with know bugs.

Well, if we strictly followed this advice we'd never, ever see a new openSUSE release. :-) A distribution comprising software on the order of a couple of hundred millions lines of source code always will have bugs, both unknown and known. It's the art of release management to steer in the right direction, let in what's beneficial and block the rest, and know when it's Good Enough[TM] As someone who has been doing this job in the past (alas for SLES, not openSUSE) I can tell you this is far from easy a job and Coolo has my full respect and trust. When to carve a release always is a judgement call and known bugs are just one factor, even if an important one. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Inbound Product Mgmt T +49(911)74053-0 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) openSUSE/SUSE Linux Enterprise F +49(911)74053-483 GF: Markus Rex --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 26/11/2007, Rob OpenSuSE <rob.opensuse.linux@googlemail.com> wrote:

On 25/11/2007, Gerald Pfeifer <gp@novell.com> wrote:

On KDE4 test I tried :

KDE OS Live CD (late Oct, too little in it and seemed too out of date, got updated) OS 10.3 install KDE4 Look at KDE SVN build (I used Gentoo in past, but considered this last resort) SuSE Build Service KDE4 - fails to let me log in with test kde4 user account, and no updates via YOU last 2 weeks

The 1 click install link in the news item has worked for me. So looks like, things are improving and it'll be feasible to take part in KDE4 beta test now. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 27/11/2007, Daniele <kailed@kailed.net> wrote:

Il domenica 25 novembre 2007, Gerald Pfeifer scrisse:

...

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007, Daniele wrote:

...

Don't release iso with know bugs.

Well, if we strictly followed this advice we'd never, ever see a new openSUSE release. :-) Hi, pleale, re-read this post: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2007-11/msg00056.html

Would it be feasible to use a loopback mount to update a Live CD iso image on disk, and then reburn? It's impossilbe to have a deliverable free of all solved bugs, as by the time it's created, more bugs will have been fixed somewhere. But, you could roll forward so that 1 user was not hit hard for so long by a 'frozen' bug, and such a procedure would permit, something like Online Update, so that Live CD snapshots can become more reliable as the latest release stabilises. Sidux project, mention using xdelta of iso images to move between release candidates rather than re-downloading the whole iso. Seen some talk about magazine cover disks being unreliable, probably for similar reasons, that they are quite out of date, by time the reader acquires them. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org