[opensuse-project] Code of Conduct: adopted!
Hello, Thanks to everyone who showed support for the proposed Code of Conduct! http://en.opensuse.org/Code_of_Conduct The idea is to follow some common-sense rules of politeness when communicating in the various openSUSE forums: mailing lists, IRC channels, web forums, Bugzilla, etc. These places have seen very rude behavior in the past; what we want to do is to make openSUSE actually a nice project in which to participate. * "But newbies get annoying!" That's because they are not used to asking questions appropriately. We were all newbies at some point: we just saw that we had a problem with our computer, and didn't really know what to ask or whom to contact. We simply need to guide newbies so that they can ask the right questions. This may involve making it easier to *find a way to ask the right questions* --- do we need a basic "how to ask" guide for mailing lists / etc? Maybe there already is one and it needs to be better publicized :) * "Experienced people have a right to get annoyed!" Have you ever been walking down the street when somebody stops you to ask, "excuse me, where's the post office?", and it's in front of them? What did you do? You told them, "why, it's right there". You *didn't* punch them in the face and tell them how dumb they are. openSUSE needs to be polite in the same way. Thanks to everyone who showed their support :) Federico on behalf of the openSUSE Board --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Could you clarify the ramifications of the code of conduct being adopted. What does "adopted" mean here as no-one has signed this document, presumably this is the outcome of a Board discussion to which we are not privy. Is it just a set of advice that is on the wiki like the mailing list netiquete? Is abiding by it a condition of membership? Is abiding by it a condition of use of the openSUSE services? Are there penalties for not abiding by it? Is it enforced? etc Many thanks -- Benjamin Weber --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 00:01 +0000, Benji Weber wrote:
Could you clarify the ramifications of the code of conduct being adopted. What does "adopted" mean here as no-one has signed this document, presumably this is the outcome of a Board discussion to which we are not privy.
Sure, no problem. By "adopted" we mean that there is rough consensus that we need to have a few rules of basic politeness, so the board decided to, well, "adopt" those rules :)
Is it just a set of advice that is on the wiki like the mailing list netiquete?
More or less, but this is for the whole openSUSE project. We also have a way for people to report violations, and a body of people who can take appropriate action: you can mail the board and the board will decide what to do. This whole "appropriate action" is intentionally left undefined, of course, since these things need a case-by-case examination :) For someone who abuses people on mailing lists it may be enough to moderate them; for others we may need to do different things. By the way, I hate the term "violations of the code"... it sounds as if you were breaking an oath or the law or something. Think of it as "people being un-nice to each other".
Is abiding by it a condition of membership?
If you mean "membership" in the terms of Francis's announcement of "openSUSE Membership", then yes. We obviously can't grant someone the mark of a distinguished member of the project if that person isn't polite to the community at large :)
Is abiding by it a condition of use of the openSUSE services?
It depends, of course... you could be happy user of zypper and the online update tools, even if you have no manners, because those tools don't require inter-personal communication. But for IRC and mailing lists, we expect standard politeness, nothing more. Think of those places as being in the street or a nice cafe where you may start conversations with strangers or people you already know. If you start punching people in the face, someone will call a policeman will drag you away :)
Are there penalties for not abiding by it? Is it enforced?
The code of conduct will be enforced on a case-by-case basis when people report offenders [that's another word I hate...]. As mentioned above, each medium where there's an offence really requires its own kind of penalty. Finally: don't be afraid! We are not "out to get people". We just want to turn a rowdy wild-west saloon into a nice cafe with internet connection :) Federico --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 17:50 -0600, Federico Mena Quintero wrote:
And of course I forgot to mention: I'll be at the #opensuse-project meeting on irc.freenode.net this Wednesday, to answer any questions you may have about the Code of Conduct :) Cheers, Federico --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 04 February 2008 06:08:25 pm Federico Mena Quintero wrote:
On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 17:50 -0600, Federico Mena Quintero wrote:
And of course I forgot to mention: I'll be at the #opensuse-project meeting on irc.freenode.net this Wednesday, to answer any questions you may have about the Code of Conduct :)
Cheers,
Federico
I can't be there, so this is the way to say thank you for Bibliography section on the wiki. It helps me to understand Board concerns. -- Regards, Rajko. See http://en.opensuse.org/Portal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Feb 5, 2008 12:08 AM, Federico Mena Quintero <federico@novell.com> wrote:
On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 17:50 -0600, Federico Mena Quintero wrote:
And of course I forgot to mention: I'll be at the #opensuse-project meeting on irc.freenode.net this Wednesday, to answer any questions you may have about the Code of Conduct :)
I'll make it to the meeting too. I think a lot needs to be clarified and/or altered in the CoC to avoid confusion, because in general here a lot of things must not be clear. We can also re-discuss the idea of the board's "position" in the community. Kind thoughts, -- Francis Giannaros http://francis.giannaros.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 05 February 2008 00:50:27 Federico Mena Quintero wrote:
Thanks to everyone who showed support for the proposed Code of Conduct!
Did you read any of the replies in the thread you started!? I'm alienated how you dumped it onto this list, did not participate in the discussion at all and now declare this as adopted by the project. :-( Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Stephan Binner <stbinner@suse.de> writes:
On Tuesday 05 February 2008 00:50:27 Federico Mena Quintero wrote:
Thanks to everyone who showed support for the proposed Code of Conduct!
Did you read any of the replies in the thread you started!?
I'm alienated how you dumped it onto this list, did not participate in the discussion at all and now declare this as adopted by the project. :-(
Stephan, looking again at the thread, I'm a bit surprised by your reaction. Could we discuss the code of conduct in the openSUSE IRC meeting on wednesday, please? Our concern is that we had some really bad folks on the opensuse mailing list where Henne and myself took already action - based on our personal feeling (but with good comments from others afterwards). We wanted to put this on a proper base, so that it's clear what is tolerated and what not, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Andreas Jaeger a écrit :
reaction. Could we discuss the code of conduct in the openSUSE IRC meeting on wednesday, please?
don't forget many people don't like IRC, are not acostumed to it or can't join on time and hour. The proposal was made here and the discussion should be here
feeling (but with good comments from others afterwards). We wanted to put this on a proper base, so that it's clear what is tolerated and what not,
and this seems ok for me jdd -- http://www.dodin.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday, 5. February 2008 08:23:03 Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Stephan, looking again at the thread, I'm a bit surprised by your reaction. Could we discuss the code of conduct in the openSUSE IRC meeting on
Why on IRC? Are mailing discussions unwanted? Then I understand why there were no/so few reactions by the proposer on the mailing list to the concerns about the signatures, being too vague, mention of users who have non-English mother tongue and considered uselessness. Summarizing the discussion as unanimous support for a Code of Conduct is a bit strange... Btw, it was only some remark by some other board member on IRC afterwards which mentioned that the signature stuff in there is only a copy and paste error from the GNOME wiki. If that doesn't raise doubts if Federico did read it at all and has put put own thoughts into this topic? Another point, for the Guiding Principles we have discussed every little revision - here I only saw the first proposal, nothing in-between and then some final changed version declared adopted by surprise. Also, (parts of) the board seems imo to think that it can control or have control over everything: I don't see this eg for IRC or the forums. But it seems it's slowly realising that as it has withdrawn its promise to be able to say who will be listed on Planet SUSE from the list of member benefits. Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Stephan Binner a écrit :
. Summarizing the discussion as unanimous support for a Code of Conduct is a bit strange...
As I understand it many people (including me) found this not really usefull, but mostly because obvious. so adopting it can't hurt...
Btw, it was only some remark by some other board member on IRC afterwards
I *hate* IRC. do we have IRC archives?? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Em Terça, 5 de Fevereiro de 2008, o jdd escreveu:
Stephan Binner a écrit :
Btw, it was only some remark by some other board member on IRC afterwards
I *hate* IRC. do we have IRC archives??
http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/Archive -- Regards, Carlos Gonçalves
Carlos Gonçalves a écrit :
Em Terça, 5 de Fevereiro de 2008, o jdd escreveu:
Stephan Binner a écrit :
Btw, it was only some remark by some other board member on IRC afterwards I *hate* IRC. do we have IRC archives??
yes, I know, but there are "edited" transcript (and may be it's better :-) - so not really a reference and my position about IRC is strictly personal, but I don't think i'm alone in this, so discussing on mailing list is better jdd -- http://www.dodin.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Feb 5, 2008 12:37 PM, jdd <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
Carlos Gonçalves a écrit :
Em Terça, 5 de Fevereiro de 2008, o jdd escreveu:
Stephan Binner a écrit :
Btw, it was only some remark by some other board member on IRC afterwards I *hate* IRC. do we have IRC archives??
yes, I know, but there are "edited" transcript (and may be it's better :-) - so not really a reference
Nothing anyone says in the meeting is taken out of the _transcript_, so it really is perfect for a reference.
and my position about IRC is strictly personal, but I don't think i'm alone in this, so discussing on mailing list is better
IRC is handy because we can [nearly all] be in the same place to discuss an issue and [hopefully] have it resolved in a much shorter time. No objection to discussing it here as well. Kind thoughts, -- Francis Giannaros http://francis.giannaros.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Francis Giannaros a écrit :
IRC is handy because we can [nearly all] be in the same place to discuss an issue and [hopefully] have it resolved in a much shorter time.
necessary for day to day work, but completely unusable if any thinking is necessary before an answer as it's often the case in such case. if the answer don't follow immediately, it's mixed by others answers in the thread. even a slow typing is a problem. when I type fast I make even more typos than I already do here :-(( jdd -- http://www.dodin.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 jdd wrote:
Francis Giannaros a écrit :
IRC is handy because we can [nearly all] be in the same place to discuss an issue and [hopefully] have it resolved in a much shorter time.
necessary for day to day work, but completely unusable if any thinking is necessary before an answer as it's often the case in such case.
if the answer don't follow immediately, it's mixed by others answers in the thread. even a slow typing is a problem. when I type fast I make even more typos than I already do here :-((
Please stop hijacking threads and bringing them ad absurdum. Thank you. - -- -o) Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@opensuse.org> /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::23+24 Feb 2008, Brussels, http://fosdem.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHqG4Cr3NMWliFcXcRAoCyAJ99eMXKjKWCtT2Sca6RuL6mrCxtwwCfQ1WO M1jzraXiIsHeXOvLPglilAg= =Z2wu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
I see a lot of reactions on Federico's emails that we as board haven't expected and which show that we all need some further discussion on the topic and it's not as clear as we had hoped. Let's discuss tomorrow in the IRC meeting on how to continue with the Code of Conduct. Henne et all - this was not a critique on your great job! Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Feb 5, 2008 11:57 AM, Andreas Jaeger <aj@suse.de> wrote:
I see a lot of reactions on Federico's emails that we as board haven't expected and which show that we all need some further discussion on the
Sincerely, you havent expected for one of this two reasons: i) Either you havent read the emails with some of the concerns of vagueness, people feeling deauthorized, etc ii) Or a lack of sensibility in feeling the not so warm environment about this topic Seems its all going to be sorted out tomorrow, then Best regards Marcio Ferreira --- Druid --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Tuesday, February 05, 2008 at 08:23:03, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Stephan Binner <stbinner@suse.de> writes:
On Tuesday 05 February 2008 00:50:27 Federico Mena Quintero wrote:
Thanks to everyone who showed support for the proposed Code of Conduct!
Did you read any of the replies in the thread you started!?
I'm alienated how you dumped it onto this list, did not participate in the discussion at all and now declare this as adopted by the project. :-(
Stephan, looking again at the thread, I'm a bit surprised by your reaction. Could we discuss the code of conduct in the openSUSE IRC meeting on wednesday, please?
I would like to do that too. No offense, but you are steping into territory you had no business in before and you did not even bother to talk to the people involved. This feels a bit weird and is not very polite. I for instance feel a bit skipped by all this because this went from "general rules" on the wiki to "rules to abide" on IRC and mailinglists "enforced" by the board. In the past i, among many others, was responsible for this for 2 of the 4 communication channels you name. You just told me on a public mailinglist im not anymore[1]. I would like to take this opportunity and remind you, as outer-board-opposition 8), what your assignments are. Given to you by the openSUSE project: _help_ resolve conflicts. facilitate decision making processes _where needed_. provide guidance and support _existing governance structures_. Henne [1] For me its easy. Aj just needs to come over and tell me what to do. For others its not. For instance you dont have the "authority" to say anything about the (#suse/#opensuse) IRC channel. Pete and the mod's there have. -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 12:40 +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote: Hi, Henne,
I would like to do that too. No offense, but you are steping into territory you had no business in before and you did not even bother to talk to the people involved. This feels a bit weird and is not very polite.
I for instance feel a bit skipped by all this because this went from "general rules" on the wiki to "rules to abide" on IRC and mailinglists "enforced" by the board. In the past i, among many others, was responsible for this for 2 of the 4 communication channels you name. You just told me on a public mailinglist im not anymore[1].
Yes, sorry, this was a huge oversight on my part. I completely forgot about the moderators. I didn't mean to ignore your work! Rest assured that we'll clarify this. Your mail makes something very clear: the moderators need to be able to do their work, and the board should only help resolve conflicts. I completely agree with that; sorry again for making it seem like it's a board-or-nothing kind of thing! We can definitely help as a last resort when there is a lot of appealing to the moderators and the conflict cannot be resolved locally. Perhaps we can talk tomorrow during the project meeting? Federico in shame --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Tuesday, February 05, 2008 at 11:20:49, Federico Mena Quintero wrote:
On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 12:40 +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
I would like to do that too. No offense, but you are steping into territory you had no business in before and you did not even bother to talk to the people involved. This feels a bit weird and is not very polite.
Yes, sorry, this was a huge oversight on my part. I completely forgot about the moderators. I didn't mean to ignore your work! Rest assured that we'll clarify this.
Your mail makes something very clear: the moderators need to be able to do their work, and the board should only help resolve conflicts. I completely agree with that; sorry again for making it seem like it's a board-or-nothing kind of thing! We can definitely help as a last resort when there is a lot of appealing to the moderators and the conflict cannot be resolved locally.
Perhaps we can talk tomorrow during the project meeting?
Yes sure. Lets do that :) I know that you guys are not trying to step on anyones toes on purpose. All of you are "just do it [tm]" guys and i like that. I rather have it this way then the other way around... In fact im happy that this topic is comming up. We need to talk a bit about the board in general i think :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
I'm pretty surprised by the "adoption" of the proposed Code of Conduct. I read the thread where it was proposed as "some people support it, but in general people think that it doesn't solve anything". So I had expected that the idea was dropped or at least a revised version would have been presented before declaring adoption. We had the discussion about how concrete to formulate our requirements for "decent behavior" when we wrote the Guiding Principles. Our conclusion at that time was that it's sufficient to state a general direction and let common sense, existing concrete guidelines (like for the mailing lists and IRC) and exemplary behavior by leading people let do the rest. I think this still applies and the proposed Code of Conduct doesn't add much value, especially as it is as vague as what is stated in the Guiding Principles (the fact that it is a literal copy of the Code of Conduct of another project shows that it doesn't contain anything openSUSE specific). So in my opinion we are better off without it. What is needed is that people live what is stated in the Code of Conduct. We need to lead by example here. The SUSE community is special and conversations which are rude or might be perceived as rude are not uncommon (ironically the thread about the Code of Conduct illustrates that). So I think it needs a bit of time to change that. The board can help by moderating, empowering moderators where needed, by supporting people who are good examples, etc. "Adoption" of a set of rules which only exist on paper (or in a Wiki), but isn't lived won't help. -- Cornelius Schumacher <cschum@suse.de> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
participants (12)
-
Andreas Jaeger -
Benji Weber -
Carlos Gonçalves -
Cornelius Schumacher -
Druid -
Federico Mena Quintero -
Francis Giannaros -
Henne Vogelsang -
jdd -
Pascal Bleser -
Rajko M. -
Stephan Binner