[opensuse-project] openSUSE Leap's Next Major Version Number
Hi all, On behalf of the openSUSE Board and Leap Release Management I am pleased to announce the next version of openSUSE Leap after 42.3 will be: openSUSE Leap 15 As with Leap 42.x, minor releases are expected annually for at least 3 years, so you can expect a Leap 15.1 to follow, then 15.2 and onwards. Obviously this is quite a dramatic change from the current version number of 42.x, so I will explain what justifies this change in some detail below. First, some history. When we started openSUSE Leap, the version number was an issue that needed addressing. openSUSE at that time was at 13.2, but SUSE Linux Enterprise (SLE) was at 12 and heading towards 12 SP1. As the main unique selling point of Leap compared to every other distribution is the fact it is based on SLE sources. We wanted to reflect that in the version number. This was particularly important when you consider that a major version in SLE really means something ("major architectural changes from the last version are introduced here") whereas minor versions/service packs have a very different message ("easy to upgrade to, no major workflow breaking changes"). Leap follows a similar philosophy, so we wanted a versioning scheme to reflect SLEs. But openSUSE had already had versions starting with 12, so we couldn't sync up with SLE. This is where 42.x came from. It gave us the opportunity to establish a relationship with SLE versions (SLE Version + 30 = Leap Version), reflect the major/minor nature of Leap releases, and avoid clashes with version numbers we'd already used. The choice of 42 doubled as a humorous nod to hitchhikers guide to the galaxy and the first version numbers of SuSE Linux and YaST (4.2 and 0.42 respectively). The plan was therefore for the next version of Leap to be 43 with it's release aligned with SLE 13, followed by Leap 43.1 (with SLE 13 SP1), Leap 43.2 (w. SP2), etc However, like all good plans, things change. SUSE have decided that their next version of SLE will be 15, not 13. Upon learning of SUSE's plans the Board and Leap release team have been considering our options. This included ignoring the changes to SLE and releasing Leap 43 as planned, at the cost of the link between SLE versions and Leap versions. 45 was also considered, as were some frankly hilarious ideas that made me worry about my own sanity and that of my fellow contributors. After considering the pros and cons of all the options however, the decision has been that Leap 15 will be our next version. SUSE's decision to skip SLE 13 and 14 gave us a perfect opportunity to sync up with SLE versions like we always wanted to originally with Leap. It's an opportunity we will not be able to take so easily a few years from now if we continued with Leaps current versioning. There are only a few packages in our distribution that reference the 42.x versioning, and they should be easily handled as part of a zypper dup, so we are not concerned about this decision impacting users upgrading. We are aware that this decision could be a minor annoyance for users of Leap with configuration management tools like saltstack and puppet, but the long term opportunity to simplify such configuration (by being able to treat SLE and Leap similarly) outweighed our desire to avoid a 'one-time' effort for people currently handling the overly complicated situation caused by Leap being at 42.x and SLE being at 12 SPx. Packagers should be able to look forward to an easier time of things as a result of this change. We intend to deprecate the 0%{leap_version} macro and simplify the current complex nest of suse_version and sle_versions that can make it very frustrating to build packages appropriately for Tumbleweed, Leap and SLE. 0%{suse_version} should continue to be available as a simple indicator of the major version of Leap & SLE for packagers (eg, 0%{suse_version} == 1500 is the expected value for SLE 15 and Leap 15 and all of their minor versions/service packs). 0%{sle_version} should remain as a more precise indicator when packagers need to handle specific versions of Leap and SLE (eg. 0%{sle_version} == 150000 is the expected value for SLE 15 & Leap 15, with 150100 being the expected value for SLE 15 SP1 & Leap 15.1) 0%{is_opensuse} will continue for those times when packagers need to distinguish between Leap and SLE even though they will now more closely share their versions. The above examples and what the future suse_version number will be for Tumbleweed is not yet final, so expect to see emails from ludwig in opensuse-factory@opensuse.org when they are set. Thanks to everyone involved in this so far, I'm looking forward to seeing what we make out of Leap 15, and even though I cross-posted this I would like to ask that any followup conversation is kept to the opensuse-project@opensuse.org thread. Regards, Richard Brown on behalf of the openSUSE Board -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 22. April 2017, 13:37:48 CEST schrieb Richard Brown:
[...] openSUSE Leap 15 [...] SUSE have decided that their next version of SLE will be 15, not 13. [...] 45 was also considered, as were some frankly hilarious ideas that made me worry about my own sanity and that of my fellow contributors.
What exactly is so bad about openSUSE Leap 45? Reminds me of 45 rpm. :)
[...] Packagers should be able to look forward to an easier time of things as a result of this change. We intend to deprecate the 0%{leap_version} macro and simplify the current complex nest of suse_version and sle_versions that can make it very frustrating to build packages appropriately for Tumbleweed, Leap and SLE. [...]
Cool! I like the idea. Gruß Jan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 01:37:48PM +0200, Richard Brown wrote:
Hi all,
On behalf of the openSUSE Board and Leap Release Management I am pleased to announce the next version of openSUSE Leap after 42.3 will be:
openSUSE Leap 15
As with Leap 42.x, minor releases are expected annually for at least 3 years, so you can expect a Leap 15.1 to follow, then 15.2 and onwards.
What would be wrong with openSUSE Leap 45.x ... to align the 1-digit with the SLE release :/ Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 23 April 2017 at 10:08, Marcus Meissner <meissner@suse.de> wrote:
On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 01:37:48PM +0200, Richard Brown wrote:
Hi all,
On behalf of the openSUSE Board and Leap Release Management I am pleased to announce the next version of openSUSE Leap after 42.3 will be:
openSUSE Leap 15
As with Leap 42.x, minor releases are expected annually for at least 3 years, so you can expect a Leap 15.1 to follow, then 15.2 and onwards.
What would be wrong with openSUSE Leap 45.x ... to align the 1-digit with the SLE release :/
Ciao, Marcus
The Board considered nothing wrong with the idea of Leap 45.x, but it would require almost the same amount of explanation as Leap 15, without the benefit of tidying up RPM macros for packagers and aligning Leaps version with SLE like we wanted to do in the first place. So we decided to take the 'leap' and made the most of the opportunity available by SLE's version change. I don't regret the decision, so far no one has raised any new practical concerns regarding the decision, just emotional ones - and we would have gotten such complaints whichever option we picked. The challenge was picking the one we think we could be happiest with for the long term, which I think we've managed. Worst case, lots of people on the big wide internet are now reading about how Leap is very close to SLE and has synchronised their version numbers. That's a message I'm quite happy to be spreading. At the same time our dalliance with 42 and now jumping to 15 could be seen to show openSUSE as a slightly eccentric, free spirited, independent open source community, which we are, and I don't mind if the world sees us that way. No one ever said every decision in open source has to make sense all of the time, just that we do our best to make the most sense we can all the time, which I think we are doing. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
So we decided to take the 'leap' and made the most of the opportunity available by SLE's version change. I don't regret the decision, so far no one has raised any new practical concerns regarding the decision, just emotional ones - and we would have gotten such complaints whichever option we picked. The challenge was picking the one we think we could be happiest with for the long term, which I think we've managed.
I hope the future will give you right there, as nothing is more volatile than version :-) What give us the certitude we will be able to have this scheme during a reasonable number of years (mean >5). If after any new fusion, acquisition SUSE goes to Enterprise 1.0 ? The time past prove there's not real warranty about it, so it is not THE solution, but one solution for the present.
Worst case, lots of people on the big wide internet are now reading about how Leap is very close to SLE and has synchronised their version numbers. That's a message I'm quite happy to be spreading. Which is fait enough to be acceptable. And the message I can personnaly use for my customer, hey we will upgrade your openSUSE version from 42.x to 15.0 :-)
At the same time our dalliance with 42 and now jumping to 15 could be seen to show openSUSE as a slightly eccentric, free spirited, independent open source community, which we are, and I don't mind if the world sees us that way.
Until there a decision to make the chameleon to have a beard, we safe and also it is a good thing to have craziness with stable «boring» things ;-)
No one ever said every decision in open source has to make sense all of the time, just that we do our best to make the most sense we can all the time, which I think we are doing.
Which is a green attitude, isn't it? -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch Bareos Partner, openSUSE Member, fsfe fellowship GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
22.04.2017 14:37, Richard Brown пишет:
Hi all,
On behalf of the openSUSE Board and Leap Release Management I am pleased to announce the next version of openSUSE Leap after 42.3 will be:
openSUSE Leap 15
What version will be after openSUSE Leap 41?
As with Leap 42.x, minor releases are expected annually for at least 3 years, so you can expect a Leap 15.1 to follow, then 15.2 and onwards.
Obviously this is quite a dramatic change from the current version number of 42.x, so I will explain what justifies this change in some detail below.
First, some history. When we started openSUSE Leap, the version number was an issue that needed addressing. openSUSE at that time was at 13.2, but SUSE Linux Enterprise (SLE) was at 12 and heading towards 12 SP1.
As the main unique selling point of Leap compared to every other distribution is the fact it is based on SLE sources. We wanted to reflect that in the version number. This was particularly important when you consider that a major version in SLE really means something ("major architectural changes from the last version are introduced here") whereas minor versions/service packs have a very different message ("easy to upgrade to, no major workflow breaking changes"). Leap follows a similar philosophy, so we wanted a versioning scheme to reflect SLEs.
But openSUSE had already had versions starting with 12, so we couldn't sync up with SLE. This is where 42.x came from. It gave us the opportunity to establish a relationship with SLE versions (SLE Version + 30 = Leap Version), reflect the major/minor nature of Leap releases, and avoid clashes with version numbers we'd already used. The choice of 42 doubled as a humorous nod to hitchhikers guide to the galaxy and the first version numbers of SuSE Linux and YaST (4.2 and 0.42 respectively).
The plan was therefore for the next version of Leap to be 43 with it's release aligned with SLE 13, followed by Leap 43.1 (with SLE 13 SP1), Leap 43.2 (w. SP2), etc
However, like all good plans, things change.
SUSE have decided that their next version of SLE will be 15, not 13.
Upon learning of SUSE's plans the Board and Leap release team have been considering our options. This included ignoring the changes to SLE and releasing Leap 43 as planned, at the cost of the link between SLE versions and Leap versions. 45 was also considered, as were some frankly hilarious ideas that made me worry about my own sanity and that of my fellow contributors.
After considering the pros and cons of all the options however, the decision has been that Leap 15 will be our next version.
SUSE's decision to skip SLE 13 and 14 gave us a perfect opportunity to sync up with SLE versions like we always wanted to originally with Leap. It's an opportunity we will not be able to take so easily a few years from now if we continued with Leaps current versioning.
There are only a few packages in our distribution that reference the 42.x versioning, and they should be easily handled as part of a zypper dup, so we are not concerned about this decision impacting users upgrading.
We are aware that this decision could be a minor annoyance for users of Leap with configuration management tools like saltstack and puppet, but the long term opportunity to simplify such configuration (by being able to treat SLE and Leap similarly) outweighed our desire to avoid a 'one-time' effort for people currently handling the overly complicated situation caused by Leap being at 42.x and SLE being at 12 SPx.
Packagers should be able to look forward to an easier time of things as a result of this change. We intend to deprecate the 0%{leap_version} macro and simplify the current complex nest of suse_version and sle_versions that can make it very frustrating to build packages appropriately for Tumbleweed, Leap and SLE.
0%{suse_version} should continue to be available as a simple indicator of the major version of Leap & SLE for packagers (eg, 0%{suse_version} == 1500 is the expected value for SLE 15 and Leap 15 and all of their minor versions/service packs).
0%{sle_version} should remain as a more precise indicator when packagers need to handle specific versions of Leap and SLE (eg. 0%{sle_version} == 150000 is the expected value for SLE 15 & Leap 15, with 150100 being the expected value for SLE 15 SP1 & Leap 15.1)
0%{is_opensuse} will continue for those times when packagers need to distinguish between Leap and SLE even though they will now more closely share their versions.
The above examples and what the future suse_version number will be for Tumbleweed is not yet final, so expect to see emails from ludwig in opensuse-factory@opensuse.org when they are set.
Thanks to everyone involved in this so far, I'm looking forward to seeing what we make out of Leap 15, and even though I cross-posted this I would like to ask that any followup conversation is kept to the opensuse-project@opensuse.org thread.
Regards,
Richard Brown on behalf of the openSUSE Board
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 23 April 2017 at 10:55, Matwey V. Kornilov <matwey.kornilov@gmail.com> wrote:
22.04.2017 14:37, Richard Brown пишет:
Hi all,
On behalf of the openSUSE Board and Leap Release Management I am pleased to announce the next version of openSUSE Leap after 42.3 will be:
openSUSE Leap 15
What version will be after openSUSE Leap 41?
Leap and SLE major versions come out on average about once every 4 years. So with this plan, starting at openSUSE Leap 15 in 2018, Leap 41 should be 104 years away Ask this question again in 2122 and we'll figure out the answer then. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-04-22T13:37:48, Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote: Having just paid for a locksmith's emergency fee because I locked myself out on Sunday morning put me into the perfect mood for commenting on this! ;-) This seems ill-advised, even more so then the utterly crazy SLE numbering change that triggered it. (And they at least have the advantage of being able to blame it on non-technical folks.) Version numbers that are not strictly monotonous ought to be taken out and shot. The joke with 42, yes, silly, but I could get behind it, because everyone loves 42. You could have gone with 50, or 51 (maintains that Leap uses "funny numbers" (area 51), happens to be the reverse of 15, *and* meet the sensible requirement of, you know, being larger than your previous version number). I know one shouldn't test for version numbers but feature presence, but ... Seriously? Are you *trying* to alienate and confuse users on purpose? On the plus side, I hope it'll drive even more folks to Tumbleweed which does have a nice and tidy incremental scheme and none of this madness. Oh, also?
Thanks to everyone involved in this so far, I'm looking forward to seeing what we make out of Leap 15, and even though I cross-posted this I would like to ask that any followup conversation is kept to the opensuse-project@opensuse.org thread.
Conversation implies dialogue. Apparently, the best one can do here is rant and whine about a decision that has already been reached. That works for a corporate context, but making such a publicly visible decision that exposes the community to ridicule and confusion behind closed doors? You might as well have announced to switch the default DE to Unity. And now I'll pretend to be a grown-up with a life. But the eye-rolling was getting to painful and needed an outlet. Regards, Lars -- SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday, 23 April 2017 13:08 Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:
but ... Seriously? Are you *trying* to alienate and confuse users on purpose?
Not on purpose, I believe. But maybe it's just wishful thinking based on my trust in Hanlon's razor. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote:
Hi all,
On behalf of the openSUSE Board and Leap Release Management I am pleased to announce the next version of openSUSE Leap after 42.3 will be:
openSUSE Leap 15
What is the reason for not moving to 15 as an internal version number, e.g. in the RPM macros and using 43.x in version numbers that are communicated to end users? As a packager, I need to be up to date with various RPM building techniques, macros and best practices, one more is not going to make a lot of difference. As an end user, I would appreciate strictly incrementing version numbers, as it gives me a clear sense which version is the most recent one. Robert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 7:37 AM, Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote:
Hi all,
On behalf of the openSUSE Board and Leap Release Management I am pleased to announce the next version of openSUSE Leap after 42.3 will be:
openSUSE Leap 15
Every release gets a code name. I vote for "pathological". It is a term used in physics to describe events for which we have no underlying foundation theory and thus even if it is true, we gain no predictive power. Water dowsing (to determine where to drill a well for water) is one example. Then when openSUSE Leap 16 comes out, a code name of "sanity" might finally be appropriate. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/25/2017 07:44 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 7:37 AM, Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote:
Hi all,
On behalf of the openSUSE Board and Leap Release Management I am pleased to announce the next version of openSUSE Leap after 42.3 will be:
openSUSE Leap 15
Every release gets a code name. I vote for "pathological".
It is a term used in physics to describe events for which we have no underlying foundation theory and thus even if it is true, we gain no predictive power. Water dowsing (to determine where to drill a well for water) is one example.
Then when openSUSE Leap 16 comes out, a code name of "sanity" might finally be appropriate.
Greg
Unfortunately we gave up on codenames for the 42.X series maybe we should bring them back :-P -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
participants (10)
-
Bruno Friedmann -
Greg Freemyer -
Jan Ritzerfeld -
Lars Marowsky-Bree -
Marcus Meissner -
Matwey V. Kornilov -
Michal Kubecek -
Richard Brown -
Robert Munteanu -
Simon Lees