[opensuse-project] About mailinglists and changing box. Smalltalk held at Fossdem with Richard and Michael (I think)
a) Having considered the troubles of some to find ways to unsubscribe, even to recall what lists they are subscribed to and also searching for a channel to convey information about unsubscribe, behavior in case of complain, responsible people (since this may change due to turnover): it would be IMO a good idea to send a reminder mail every 6 month (e.g.) containing: - the lists the email in question is subscribed to - the way on how to unsubscribe if desired -update on rules and regulations and particularly - a how to on behavior to hold in case of complain about list members causing grief or conflict - an updated list on who is in charge where in the project especially but not necessarily exclusively the ones in charge for the respective mailing-lists. The rational is that such an email avoids questioning on the very lists. The demand for it is obviously there since although in theory the information is there, it is in separate places, people forget about details, do not have time to inquire etc. The mail should not come often not to annoy people but often enough not to be outdated. IMO 6 month period is a reasonable time, one year is also acceptable but it seems long to me. The less frequent such a mail does come, the more information should it contain (in a clearly structured way) YMMV. An example mailing list that AFAIK is doing it regularly is the GNUPG mailinglist. b) a second point was about the entry page. How could one have some information be presented in a circular and dynamic way without requiring a lot of personnel to change the outfit of the page? My proposal would be to stick to this design examples of commercial websites below (disclaimer: these are design examples of what I propose, neither do I think you will be interested in the commerce nor am I associated with these people in any way. But I noticed the web-solution): https://www.bike-components.de/en/ a similar thing you have it with this vendor (just differently sized). https://www.alternate.de/ here you instead you have a tab-based approach but substantially the same solution (again the same disclaimer applies). If you have a look at the upper part of the page. It presents a slide-show that can be manually stopped, a click brings you to the corresponding information if desired and of course it circles through. Such a presentation could solve the issue of who "comes first" on a webpage, e.g. tumbleweed being on the left or leap on the right etc) as everyone will have the same circle time. This first diapo could be the one giving info of new and recent thematic, then circle to the distributions. Substantially this gives you a lot of freedom to: 1) change a lot of things 2) to not change a thing Point two is particularly nice because a redesign can be done very selectively and does not require to change the setup of the whole page. IMO an economical way of proceeding. Lastly a suggestion about how to lower complexity in link based websites (or that do convey a lot of different info available). "Click-boxes" that selectively show only a part of the information - thus making the page easier to read. An example of what I mean here, you can find it here: http://www.archchinese.com/chinese_english_dictionary.html?find=software This page will open with a lot of translations and gimmicks for the word "software" . Now look at the section "sentences" below. It is cluttered with too much info. But you see the tick-boxes? Try them out, a click and you deselect part of the page. I found this to be extremely efficient to see what you search with little effort and to have a very personalized approach to information. Where you could use this, I do not know, maybe WIKI? But I think it is nice for the eye, thus I wanted to present it here a an example, maybe it raises some interest. (Again I do not take money nor any advantage from this link, it is just for the sake of an html example). Thank you Richard, Michael and who else was present today. It was a refreshing smalltalk. --- Alle Postfächer an einem Ort. Jetzt wechseln und E-Mail-Adresse mitnehmen! http://email.freenet.de/basic/Informationen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
stakanov@freenet.de wrote:
a) Having considered the troubles of some to find ways to unsubscribe, even to recall what lists they are subscribed to and also searching for a channel to convey information about unsubscribe, behavior in case of complain, responsible people (since this may change due to turnover): it would be IMO a good idea to send a reminder mail every 6 month (e.g.) containing:
- the lists the email in question is subscribed to - the way on how to unsubscribe if desired - update on rules and regulations and particularly - a how to on behavior to hold in case of complain about list members causing grief or conflict
Mailing list managers such as mailman can be configured to send out a password reminder every month. Maybe also the rest of it. More than that, no thanks. a) if you're subscribed to an active list, you receive the mails, and you know you're subscribed. b) most mails have an unsubscribe link in the footer. People who cannot read are not helped by giving them more to read :-( c) and d) - no thanks.
The rational is that such an email avoids questioning on the very lists.
A vain hope, I'm afraid. Example - the unsubscribe "issue". The information is presented frequently, yet some people simply ignore it.
The demand for it is obviously there since although in theory the information is there, it is in separate places, people forget about details, do not have time to inquire etc. The mail should not come often not to annoy people but often enough not to be outdated. IMO 6 month period is a reasonable time, one year is also acceptable but it seems long to me.
Anything 6 months older or more is forgotten. Especially if it's a standard text with few interesting changes, and something you'd rarely need. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (4.0°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 7:24 AM, <stakanov@freenet.de> wrote:
a) Having considered the troubles of some to find ways to unsubscribe, even to recall what lists they are subscribed to and also searching for a channel to convey information about unsubscribe, behavior in case of complain, responsible people (since this may change due to turnover): it would be IMO a good idea to send a reminder mail every 6 month (e.g.) containing:
- the lists the email in question is subscribed to - the way on how to unsubscribe if desired -update on rules and regulations and particularly - a how to on behavior to hold in case of complain about list members causing grief or conflict - an updated list on who is in charge where in the project especially but not necessarily exclusively the ones in charge for the respective mailing-lists.
The rational is that such an email avoids questioning on the very lists. The demand for it is obviously there since although in theory the information is there, it is in separate places, people forget about details, do not have time to inquire etc. The mail should not come often not to annoy people but often enough not to be outdated. IMO 6 month period is a reasonable time, one year is also acceptable but it seems long to me. The less frequent such a mail does come, the more information should it contain (in a clearly structured way) YMMV. An example mailing list that AFAIK is doing it regularly is the GNUPG mailinglist.
b) a second point was about the entry page. How could one have some information be presented in a circular and dynamic way without requiring a lot of personnel to change the outfit of the page?
My proposal would be to stick to this design examples of commercial websites below (disclaimer: these are design examples of what I propose, neither do I think you will be interested in the commerce nor am I associated with these people in any way. But I noticed the web-solution):
https://www.bike-components.de/en/
a similar thing you have it with this vendor (just differently sized).
here you instead you have a tab-based approach but substantially the same solution (again the same disclaimer applies).
If you have a look at the upper part of the page. It presents a slide-show that can be manually stopped, a click brings you to the corresponding information if desired and of course it circles through. Such a presentation could solve the issue of who "comes first" on a webpage, e.g. tumbleweed being on the left or leap on the right etc) as everyone will have the same circle time. This first diapo could be the one giving info of new and recent thematic, then circle to the distributions. Substantially this gives you a lot of freedom to:
1) change a lot of things
2) to not change a thing
Point two is particularly nice because a redesign can be done very selectively and does not require to change the setup of the whole page. IMO an economical way of proceeding.
Lastly a suggestion about how to lower complexity in link based websites (or that do convey a lot of different info available).
"Click-boxes" that selectively show only a part of the information - thus making the page easier to read.
An example of what I mean here, you can find it here:
http://www.archchinese.com/chinese_english_dictionary.html?find=software
This page will open with a lot of translations and gimmicks for the word "software" . Now look at the section "sentences" below. It is cluttered with too much info. But you see the tick-boxes? Try them out, a click and you deselect part of the page. I found this to be extremely efficient to see what you search with little effort and to have a very personalized approach to information.
Where you could use this, I do not know, maybe WIKI? But I think it is nice for the eye, thus I wanted to present it here a an example, maybe it raises some interest. (Again I do not take money nor any advantage from this link, it is just for the sake of an html example).
Thank you Richard, Michael and who else was present today. It was a refreshing smalltalk.
--- Alle Postfächer an einem Ort. Jetzt wechseln und E-Mail-Adresse mitnehmen! http://email.freenet.de/basic/Informationen
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Thank you, <stakanov@freenet.de> for bringing your little discussion at FOSDEM to our attention. It's good to see someone seeking consensus before changing something that affects almost the entire openSUSE community. Would the Richard and Michael mentioned in the subject field of the email care to share what points were discussed at FOSDEM with stakanov that might provide enlightenment on what is being proposed here from their viewpoint? I'm assuming Richard Brown is the Richard, but I don't know which of the fifteen Mich*'s who use openSUSE mailing lists might be referenced. Perhaps it's another member of the openSUSE board, Michal Hrušecký? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
PatrickD Garvey - 8:12 1.02.16 wrote:
On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 7:24 AM, <stakanov@freenet.de> wrote:
a) Having considered the troubles of some to find ways to unsubscribe, even to recall what lists they are subscribed to and also searching for a channel to convey information about unsubscribe, behavior in case of complain, responsible people (since this may change due to turnover): it would be IMO a good idea to send a reminder mail every 6 month (e.g.) containing:
- the lists the email in question is subscribed to - the way on how to unsubscribe if desired - update on rules and regulations and particularly - a how to on behavior to hold in case of complain about list members causing grief or conflict - an updated list on who is in charge where in the project especially but not necessarily exclusively the ones in charge for the respective mailing-lists.
The rational is that such an email avoids questioning on the very lists. The demand for it is obviously there since although in theory the information is there, it is in separate places, people forget about details, do not have time to inquire etc. The mail should not come often not to annoy people but often enough not to be outdated. IMO 6 month period is a reasonable time, one year is also acceptable but it seems long to me. The less frequent such a mail does come, the more information should it contain (in a clearly structured way) YMMV. An example mailing list that AFAIK is doing it regularly is the GNUPG mailinglist.
b) a second point was about the entry page. How could one have some information be presented in a circular and dynamic way without requiring a lot of personnel to change the outfit of the page?
My proposal would be to stick to this design examples of commercial websites below (disclaimer: these are design examples of what I propose, neither do I think you will be interested in the commerce nor am I associated with these people in any way. But I noticed the web-solution):
https://www.bike-components.de/en/
a similar thing you have it with this vendor (just differently sized).
here you instead you have a tab-based approach but substantially the same solution (again the same disclaimer applies).
If you have a look at the upper part of the page. It presents a slide-show that can be manually stopped, a click brings you to the corresponding information if desired and of course it circles through. Such a presentation could solve the issue of who "comes first" on a webpage, e.g. tumbleweed being on the left or leap on the right etc) as everyone will have the same circle time. This first diapo could be the one giving info of new and recent thematic, then circle to the distributions. Substantially this gives you a lot of freedom to:
1) change a lot of things
2) to not change a thing
Point two is particularly nice because a redesign can be done very selectively and does not require to change the setup of the whole page. IMO an economical way of proceeding.
Lastly a suggestion about how to lower complexity in link based websites (or that do convey a lot of different info available).
"Click-boxes" that selectively show only a part of the information - thus making the page easier to read.
An example of what I mean here, you can find it here:
http://www.archchinese.com/chinese_english_dictionary.html?find=software
This page will open with a lot of translations and gimmicks for the word "software" . Now look at the section "sentences" below. It is cluttered with too much info. But you see the tick-boxes? Try them out, a click and you deselect part of the page. I found this to be extremely efficient to see what you search with little effort and to have a very personalized approach to information.
Where you could use this, I do not know, maybe WIKI? But I think it is nice for the eye, thus I wanted to present it here a an example, maybe it raises some interest. (Again I do not take money nor any advantage from this link, it is just for the sake of an html example).
Thank you Richard, Michael and who else was present today. It was a refreshing smalltalk.
--- Alle Postfächer an einem Ort. Jetzt wechseln und E-Mail-Adresse mitnehmen! http://email.freenet.de/basic/Informationen
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Thank you, <stakanov@freenet.de> for bringing your little discussion at FOSDEM to our attention. It's good to see someone seeking consensus before changing something that affects almost the entire openSUSE community.
Would the Richard and Michael mentioned in the subject field of the email care to share what points were discussed at FOSDEM with stakanov that might provide enlightenment on what is being proposed here from their viewpoint? I'm assuming Richard Brown is the Richard, but I don't know which of the fifteen Mich*'s who use openSUSE mailing lists might be referenced. Perhaps it's another member of the openSUSE board, Michal Hrušecký?
Yep, the other guy was me. Let's share my personal point of view on those suggestions. Mailing list reminder --------------------- I get mailing list reminder in few lists I'm subscribed to, typically it is in form a little different from normal mail so it get's through the filters and reminds me that I'm still subscribed and it actually made me to cancel few subscriptions I no longer cared about in the past that I forgot about thanks to the e-mail filters. I think this mail could also contain link to netiquette and reminder to people who to write to if they witness some abusive behaviour. We want our mailing list to be a pleasant place to have a discussions on. Reminds me of a talk I saw some time ago[1]. I think we should also somehow remind people to try not to break threads and wrap lines :-) I would say that quite some people subscribe without actually reading info and once a month is according to me fine. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F-3E8pyjFo Web page -------- No opinion, can't imagine a pretty way and functional way how to do it, but than again, my idea of pretty page is asciidoc before compilation. So my suggestion was to take a discussion to opensuse-web to our designers to see what they think about it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi We have a list of netiqquete here : https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette A easy first step will be to add it as a footer in all the mailing list mails, that are sent. Thanks On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:45 PM, Michal Hrusecky <Michal.Hrusecky@opensuse.org> wrote:
PatrickD Garvey - 8:12 1.02.16 wrote:
On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 7:24 AM, <stakanov@freenet.de> wrote:
a) Having considered the troubles of some to find ways to unsubscribe, even to recall what lists they are subscribed to and also searching for a channel to convey information about unsubscribe, behavior in case of complain, responsible people (since this may change due to turnover): it would be IMO a good idea to send a reminder mail every 6 month (e.g.) containing:
- the lists the email in question is subscribed to - the way on how to unsubscribe if desired - update on rules and regulations and particularly - a how to on behavior to hold in case of complain about list members causing grief or conflict - an updated list on who is in charge where in the project especially but not necessarily exclusively the ones in charge for the respective mailing-lists.
The rational is that such an email avoids questioning on the very lists. The demand for it is obviously there since although in theory the information is there, it is in separate places, people forget about details, do not have time to inquire etc. The mail should not come often not to annoy people but often enough not to be outdated. IMO 6 month period is a reasonable time, one year is also acceptable but it seems long to me. The less frequent such a mail does come, the more information should it contain (in a clearly structured way) YMMV. An example mailing list that AFAIK is doing it regularly is the GNUPG mailinglist.
b) a second point was about the entry page. How could one have some information be presented in a circular and dynamic way without requiring a lot of personnel to change the outfit of the page?
My proposal would be to stick to this design examples of commercial websites below (disclaimer: these are design examples of what I propose, neither do I think you will be interested in the commerce nor am I associated with these people in any way. But I noticed the web-solution):
https://www.bike-components.de/en/
a similar thing you have it with this vendor (just differently sized).
here you instead you have a tab-based approach but substantially the same solution (again the same disclaimer applies).
If you have a look at the upper part of the page. It presents a slide-show that can be manually stopped, a click brings you to the corresponding information if desired and of course it circles through. Such a presentation could solve the issue of who "comes first" on a webpage, e.g. tumbleweed being on the left or leap on the right etc) as everyone will have the same circle time. This first diapo could be the one giving info of new and recent thematic, then circle to the distributions. Substantially this gives you a lot of freedom to:
1) change a lot of things
2) to not change a thing
Point two is particularly nice because a redesign can be done very selectively and does not require to change the setup of the whole page. IMO an economical way of proceeding.
Lastly a suggestion about how to lower complexity in link based websites (or that do convey a lot of different info available).
"Click-boxes" that selectively show only a part of the information - thus making the page easier to read.
An example of what I mean here, you can find it here:
http://www.archchinese.com/chinese_english_dictionary.html?find=software
This page will open with a lot of translations and gimmicks for the word "software" . Now look at the section "sentences" below. It is cluttered with too much info. But you see the tick-boxes? Try them out, a click and you deselect part of the page. I found this to be extremely efficient to see what you search with little effort and to have a very personalized approach to information.
Where you could use this, I do not know, maybe WIKI? But I think it is nice for the eye, thus I wanted to present it here a an example, maybe it raises some interest. (Again I do not take money nor any advantage from this link, it is just for the sake of an html example).
Thank you Richard, Michael and who else was present today. It was a refreshing smalltalk.
--- Alle Postfächer an einem Ort. Jetzt wechseln und E-Mail-Adresse mitnehmen! http://email.freenet.de/basic/Informationen
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Thank you, <stakanov@freenet.de> for bringing your little discussion at FOSDEM to our attention. It's good to see someone seeking consensus before changing something that affects almost the entire openSUSE community.
Would the Richard and Michael mentioned in the subject field of the email care to share what points were discussed at FOSDEM with stakanov that might provide enlightenment on what is being proposed here from their viewpoint? I'm assuming Richard Brown is the Richard, but I don't know which of the fifteen Mich*'s who use openSUSE mailing lists might be referenced. Perhaps it's another member of the openSUSE board, Michal Hrušecký?
Yep, the other guy was me. Let's share my personal point of view on those suggestions.
Mailing list reminder ---------------------
I get mailing list reminder in few lists I'm subscribed to, typically it is in form a little different from normal mail so it get's through the filters and reminds me that I'm still subscribed and it actually made me to cancel few subscriptions I no longer cared about in the past that I forgot about thanks to the e-mail filters. I think this mail could also contain link to netiquette and reminder to people who to write to if they witness some abusive behaviour. We want our mailing list to be a pleasant place to have a discussions on. Reminds me of a talk I saw some time ago[1].
I think we should also somehow remind people to try not to break threads and wrap lines :-)
I would say that quite some people subscribe without actually reading info and once a month is according to me fine.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F-3E8pyjFo
Web page --------
No opinion, can't imagine a pretty way and functional way how to do it, but than again, my idea of pretty page is asciidoc before compilation. So my suggestion was to take a discussion to opensuse-web to our designers to see what they think about it.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-- Regards Manu Gupta -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
participants (5)
-
Manu Gupta -
Michal Hrusecky -
PatrickD Garvey -
Per Jessen -
stakanov＠freenet.de