[opensuse-project] Multimedia support ie. aasy installation

Rajko M.

5 May 2007 5 May '07

14:52

It could be easier for new users with interest in multimedia to have system up and running if retail version can include applications complied with that support. The survey shows that most of participants obtain openSUSE via download. 1) is it possible that if retail box would offer MM and maybe few other goodies for extra price that it would be much more popular? 2) Is it so expensive or legally impossible to have media applications that work out of the box? 3) Is it possible that "Multimedia openSUSE" can fit a bill for the OEMs and users that don't want to hunt versions with MM support enabled? The present situation is in a long run bad for both financial or adoption goals. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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Randall R Schulz

5 May 5 May

14:58

On Saturday 05 May 2007 07:52, Rajko M. wrote:

...

It could be easier for new users with interest in multimedia ...

1) is it possible that if retail box would offer MM and maybe few other goodies for extra price that it would be much more popular?

Possible. But somehow, I doubt it would increase adoption much by itself.

...

2) Is it so expensive or legally impossible to have media applications that work out of the box?

3) Is it possible that "Multimedia openSUSE" can fit a bill for the OEMs and users that don't want to hunt versions with MM support enabled?

You could start up a business to do this, you know.

...

The present situation is in a long run bad for both financial or adoption goals.

It's an old story. It's not impossible, but it would require the same kind of licensing agreements that Microsoft and Apple have with the pertinent licensing organization (Fraunhofer, e.g.). For whatever reason, Novell does not want to get involved in mingling proprietary software with their Open Source release. Randall Schulz --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

19:52

On Saturday 05 May 2007 09:58, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

On Saturday 05 May 2007 07:52, Rajko M. wrote:

...
It could be easier for new users with interest in multimedia ...

1) is it possible that if retail box would offer MM and maybe few other goodies for extra price that it would be much more popular?

Possible. But somehow, I doubt it would increase adoption much by itself.

Not alone, for sure.

...

...
2) Is it so expensive or legally impossible to have media applications that work out of the box?

3) Is it possible that "Multimedia openSUSE" can fit a bill for the OEMs and users that don't want to hunt versions with MM support enabled?

You could start up a business to do this, you know.

Good idea ;-) If you can backup finances.

...

...
The present situation is in a long run bad for both financial or adoption goals.

It's an old story. It's not impossible, but it would require the same kind of licensing agreements that Microsoft and Apple have with the pertinent licensing organization (Fraunhofer, e.g.). For whatever reason, Novell does not want to get involved in mingling proprietary software with their Open Source release.

Well open source would be download. Retail not necessarily. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Juergen Weigert

7 May 7 May

13:46

On May 05, 07 14:52:30 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Saturday 05 May 2007 09:58, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
On Saturday 05 May 2007 07:52, Rajko M. wrote:

...
It could be easier for new users with interest in multimedia ...

True. Our Multimedia situation is sad.

...

...
...
1) is it possible that if retail box would offer MM and maybe few other goodies for extra price that it would be much more popular?

We did the calculations a few times during the last years. the basic patent licenses involved increase the retail price by ca 10..20$ -- a tricky mixture of flat fees, per unit fees and other things.

...

...
...
2) Is it so expensive or legally impossible to have media applications that work out of the box?

Both :-) The legal implications are complex. E.g. patent licenses usually require the code to be closed soure. Btw. Fluendo did a cool trick to license a binary and provide open source, though.

...

...
...
The present situation is in a long run bad for both financial or adoption goals.

indeed.

...

...
It's an old story. It's not impossible, but it would require the same kind of licensing agreements that Microsoft and Apple have with the pertinent licensing organization (Fraunhofer, e.g.). For whatever reason, Novell does not want to get involved in mingling proprietary software with their Open Source release.

Some parts of Novell don't, others (including myself do). But whenever direct costs and legal risks are involved, but no immediate business need is at hand, we lack good arguements why we should feed the ... how do you call them ... 'patent-trolls'?. cheers, Jw. -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de wide open suse_/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 (tm)__/ (____/ /\ (/) | __________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) "Oral agreements are worth about as much as the paper they are written on." --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

23:39

New subject: [opensuse-project] Multimedia support ie. easy installation

On Monday 07 May 2007 08:46, Juergen Weigert wrote:

...

On May 05, 07 14:52:30 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

...
On Saturday 05 May 2007 09:58, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
On Saturday 05 May 2007 07:52, Rajko M. wrote:

...
It could be easier for new users with interest in multimedia ...

True. Our Multimedia situation is sad.

...
...
...
1) is it possible that if retail box would offer MM and maybe few other goodies for extra price that it would be much more popular?

We did the calculations a few times during the last years. the basic patent licenses involved increase the retail price by ca 10..20$ -- a tricky mixture of flat fees, per unit fees and other things.

...
...
...
2) Is it so expensive or legally impossible to have media applications that work out of the box?

Both :-) The legal implications are complex. E.g. patent licenses usually require the code to be closed soure. Btw. Fluendo did a cool trick to license a binary and provide open source, though.

...
...
...
The present situation is in a long run bad for both financial or adoption goals.

indeed.

...
...
It's an old story. It's not impossible, but it would require the same kind of licensing agreements that Microsoft and Apple have with the pertinent licensing organization (Fraunhofer, e.g.). For whatever reason, Novell does not want to get involved in mingling proprietary software with their Open Source release.

Some parts of Novell don't, others (including myself do). But whenever direct costs and legal risks are involved, but no immediate business need is at hand, we lack good arguements why we should feed the ... how do you call them ... 'patent-trolls'?.

cheers, Jw.

The immediate business need was/is Dell and number of other, including small businesses that can't do much with operating system that doesn't support multimedia. I had few installations that people abandoned because they rather pay for antivirus and firewall software ($70), and have music, video and games. It would be completely different if they would have to pay the same price for the same MM offer and much more programs. For missing games it is clear that good gaming computer cost more than gaming console and couple of games, but missing ability to see web page content makes people feel like they have faulty software and if they have to choose between two they go back to what they are used to. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua

5 May 5 May

15:23

Il giorno sab, 05/05/2007 alle 09.52 -0500, Rajko M. ha scritto:

...

It could be easier for new users with interest in multimedia to have system up and running if retail version can include applications complied with that support. The survey shows that most of participants obtain openSUSE via download.

1) is it possible that if retail box would offer MM and maybe few other goodies for extra price that it would be much more popular?

I doubt it would be _much_more_popular_, but it would for sure improve the visibility of the boxed version.

...

2) Is it so expensive or legally impossible to have media applications that work out of the box?

It's very expensive. I don't remember the price of the licence, but there was a discussion on the IRC channel some time ago and I remember it was high.

...

3) Is it possible that "Multimedia openSUSE" can fit a bill for the OEMs and users that don't want to hunt versions with MM support enabled?

It would certainly simplify users and distributors lives. I doubt DELL will ship multimedia enabled ubuntu, for example. They can't risk. Regards, A. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Benji Weber

15:42

On 5/5/07, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

...

It's very expensive. I don't remember the price of the licence, but there was a discussion on the IRC channel some time ago and I remember it was high.

See http://mp3licensing.com/royalty/ but pricing is not the only problem, If the MP3 de/encoding software is GPLed then there are problems with section 7 of the GPL if they obtain a licence for only their distributees and not a blanket licence for everyone to use mp3 encoding/decoding. " For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program." So either they'd have to distribute mp3 support via non-gpl plugins (eg helix in the past, which causes problems in itself linking to it from gpled programmes like amarok) or just not distribute it at all. Ubuntu of course ignore all these legalities. _ Benjamin Weber --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Justin Haygood

16:48

Helix Banshee I find very useful... I believe it uses Real's license since RealPlayer is doing the hard work of decoding. I think it might be easier to get to partner wtih companies that already have licenses, and pay royalties. for BSD-licensed software, you can still provide open source software and link to the (necessarily, specially in the US) proprietary codecs and encryption stuff. I think Linspire does this... It might not make sense for Novell to do this, but members of the community can create a deriv of OpenSUSE that's basically a "home edition" type distro that takes the opensuse base and adds all the cool stuff legally :) (like linspire is to debian/ubuntu) On 5/5/07, Benji Weber wrote:

...

On 5/5/07, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

...
It's very expensive. I don't remember the price of the licence, but there was a discussion on the IRC channel some time ago and I remember it was high.

See http://mp3licensing.com/royalty/ but pricing is not the only problem, If the MP3 de/encoding software is GPLed then there are problems with section 7 of the GPL if they obtain a licence for only their distributees and not a blanket licence for everyone to use mp3 encoding/decoding.

" For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program."

So either they'd have to distribute mp3 support via non-gpl plugins (eg helix in the past, which causes problems in itself linking to it from gpled programmes like amarok) or just not distribute it at all.

Ubuntu of course ignore all these legalities.

_ Benjamin Weber --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

20:03

On Saturday 05 May 2007 11:48, Justin Haygood wrote:

...

Helix Banshee I find very useful... I believe it uses Real's license since RealPlayer is doing the hard work of decoding.

Never tried it, but even than, so far I understand, it is workaround for most of audio part.

...

I think it might be easier to get to partner wtih companies that already have licenses, and pay royalties. for BSD-licensed software, you can still provide open source software and link to the (necessarily, specially in the US) proprietary codecs and encryption stuff. I think Linspire does this...

I have forgotten Linspire. It would be interesting to see how they do.

...

It might not make sense for Novell to do this, but members of the community can create a deriv of OpenSUSE that's basically a "home edition" type distro that takes the opensuse base and adds all the cool stuff legally :) (like linspire is to debian/ubuntu)

The extra distro can be created, but that is not the same. Users should have clean legal situation too. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Justin Haygood

22:33

...

...
It might not make sense for Novell to do this, but members of the community can create a deriv of OpenSUSE that's basically a "home edition" type distro that takes the opensuse base and adds all the cool stuff legally :) (like linspire is to debian/ubuntu)

The extra distro can be created, but that is not the same. Users should have clean legal situation too.

Linspire users have a clean legal situation, since Linspire licenses all the codecs from Apple, Microsoft, Real, Adobe, etc... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

23:32

On Saturday 05 May 2007 17:33, Justin Haygood wrote:

...

...
The extra distro can be created, but that is not the same. Users should have clean legal situation too.

Linspire users have a clean legal situation, since Linspire licenses all the codecs from Apple, Microsoft, Real, Adobe, etc...

Can you give me some reference. I would like to learn more. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Raúl Moratalla

6 May 6 May

00:17

El Sábado, 5 de Mayo de 2007 17:42, Benji Weber escribió:

...

Ubuntu of course ignore all these legalities.

Novell doesn't ignore all these legalities, but Ubuntu does as with propietary Kernel drivers. Why does kernel's developers allow this? All distributions should respect the rules :( --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

5 May 5 May

19:56

On Saturday 05 May 2007 10:23, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

...

Il giorno sab, 05/05/2007 alle 09.52 -0500, Rajko M. ha scritto:

...
It could be easier for new users with interest in multimedia to have system up and running if retail version can include applications complied with that support. The survey shows that most of participants obtain openSUSE via download.

1) is it possible that if retail box would offer MM and maybe few other goodies for extra price that it would be much more popular?

I doubt it would be _much_more_popular_, but it would for sure improve the visibility of the boxed version.

It wouldn't make more difference on boxed versions, but it can be solution for OEM market.

...

...
2) Is it so expensive or legally impossible to have media applications that work out of the box?

It's very expensive. I don't remember the price of the licence, but there was a discussion on the IRC channel some time ago and I remember it was high.

...
3) Is it possible that "Multimedia openSUSE" can fit a bill for the OEMs and users that don't want to hunt versions with MM support enabled?

It would certainly simplify users and distributors lives. I doubt DELL will ship multimedia enabled ubuntu, for example. They can't risk.

They won't. They will come up with some legally clean solution. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner

19:39

On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 09:52:15AM -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

...

It could be easier for new users with interest in multimedia to have system up and running if retail version can include applications complied with that support. The survey shows that most of participants obtain openSUSE via download.

1) is it possible that if retail box would offer MM and maybe few other goodies for extra price that it would be much more popular?

2) Is it so expensive or legally impossible to have media applications that work out of the box?

3) Is it possible that "Multimedia openSUSE" can fit a bill for the OEMs and users that don't want to hunt versions with MM support enabled?

The present situation is in a long run bad for both financial or adoption goals.

We have been investigating all those solutions, but as you see, we have not come to a working solution yet. Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

20:07

New subject: [opensuse-project] Multimedia support ie. easy installation

On Saturday 05 May 2007 14:39, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 09:52:15AM -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

...
It could be easier for new users with interest in multimedia to have system up and running if retail version can include applications complied with that support. The survey shows that most of participants obtain openSUSE via download.

1) is it possible that if retail box would offer MM and maybe few other goodies for extra price that it would be much more popular?

2) Is it so expensive or legally impossible to have media applications that work out of the box?

3) Is it possible that "Multimedia openSUSE" can fit a bill for the OEMs and users that don't want to hunt versions with MM support enabled?

The present situation is in a long run bad for both financial or adoption goals.

We have been investigating all those solutions, but as you see, we have not come to a working solution yet.

Ciao, Marcus

I bet you did. This was just another try to ask questions that we have to think about, once in a while. The world is changing. New day and new discussion can come up with some ideas that yesterday were not possible. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

6 May 6 May

14:19

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2007-05-05 at 21:39 +0200, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 09:52:15AM -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

...

...
The present situation is in a long run bad for both financial or adoption goals.

We have been investigating all those solutions, but as you see, we have not come to a working solution yet.

Could we have an update on this: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2005-10/msg00238.html ? That email explained the legal issues with DVDs, but there are more with multimedia in general. This is what was said then: | Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:40:59 +0200 (CEST) | From: Martin Sommer <**@suse.de> | To: | Subject: Re: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er | ... |> So, now my question: What exactly has to be done in order to build a |> legal DVD player for Linux? |> | |Not much: You need only: | | - convince all developers of the xine project (>30) that they change the | xine license from GPL to LGPL or BSD (use alternatively the mplayer or | the ogle project or write one from scratch)) to be able to link | against the proprietary CSS stuff | - sign a contract with the DVD CCA to get the official CSS technology | - pay 19,000 USD a year to DVD CCA | - implement the CSS technology into xine | - talk to all major graphics card vendors and convince them to support | Linux and provide interfaces for the use of macrovision in | Linuxplayers | - implement it into the player | - sign a contract with Dolby for decoding dolby 2 channel and/or 6 | channel sound | - pay approx. 0.8 - 1.50 USD per sold copy of the program to Dolby | (depends on sound quality and the number of sold copies) | - sign a contract with MPEGLA for decoding mpeg2 video format | - pay 2.50 USD per sold copy to MPEGLA (independent from numbers) | | | That's all, let's begin! ;-) | You see, there are also issues on the Linux camp... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGPeQItTMYHG2NR9URAqViAJsEW2mLj1TsEOBsGs9E97QH49sY9QCeKoPp tUBY1ojjD4b/aQVm2rBCkZk= =f5sc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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9 participants

participants (9)

Alberto Passalacqua
Benji Weber
Carlos E. R.
Juergen Weigert
Justin Haygood
Marcus Meissner
Rajko M.
Randall R Schulz
Raúl Moratalla