[opensuse-project] openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
There are pretty many pros and cons and even more people with their opinion about the feature [1]I'd like to summarize what has been said in the discussion in the feature itself and during this week's openSUSE project meeting. Unfortunately the only sure thing is whatever decision is taken - it will be wrong for some. This is why, at this time, we have no default - because openSUSE has strong GNOME and KDE implementations, we offer them side-by-side as equals. And we made 2 years ago on opensuse-project the decision that we stay with "no default" desktop. So what do we have so far? - a feature request [1] from one of the KDE e.V. board members - the feature asks to make KDE default. Reason for that, is to make openSUSE more simple for newbies and to make openSUSE the best KDE distribution around - Through the discussion in the feature I'd translate that feature into put the radio button as default to KDE on the desktop selection screen during installation instead of today's status where everybody needs to make a choice between - the highest rated feature in openFATE [2] until today - a majority of people supporting this feature (currently approx. 90% pro, 1% neutral, 9% against) What I clearly see as pro is: - listening to our KDE community we may gain more KDE contributors. But don't forget this feature is also about making openSUSE an outstanding KDE distribution. And for that just voting for a feature is not enough. For becoming an outstanding KDE distribution we need you to contribute - we simplify the installation by one click for 2/3 of our users, according to question no. 11 in our last openSUSE survey [3] made in 11.0 time frame - the GNOME users keep status quo and need to set the radio button as before What I clearly see as con is: - our pretty active GNOME community won't be very happy about it - our strength is to support choice and two major desktops - with the CD you always get a default desktop What might stay doubtful? - Would changing a radio button really drive lots of users and contributors to us? - Would already KDE as a default make us to an outstanding KDE distribution? - Does openSUSE need a default desktop? What I suggest? Due to upcoming feature freeze for openSUSE 11.2 we have only the possibility to default the radio button to KDE. But this is IMO more a diplomatic solution which doesn't help much anybody. We should give the feature one or two more weeks to evolve and need to do the decision for openSUSE 11.2 by mid of August. Some other observations I have with respect about this feature: - inviting people through blogs, web pages, mailing lists or twitter to vote has potential to set the credibility of the voting system at risk as people not involved with openSUSE or not using openSUSE express their thoughts - the feature shows the success of opening up the openSUSE project. Few years ago decisions were made by Novell and nowadays decisions are challenged by our community. - I'm pretty happy about the way the discussion is handled (impartial, no bashing etc.) May wisdom be with us - and may we get in openSUSE the best GNOME and the best KDE desktops! Best M [1] https://features.opensuse.org/306967 [2] https://features.opensuse.org/ [3] http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf -- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex
On Friday 31 of July 2009, Michael Loeffler wrote:
- a feature request [1] from one of the KDE e.V. board members
The board membership is however just a coincidence.
- we simplify the installation by one click for 2/3 of our users, according to question no. 11 in our last openSUSE survey [3] made in 11.0 time frame
Not only for those, you forget all users who install next-next-next-next and run into a question they are forced to answer, and often have no idea about it. Users who know what the question is about will decide there anyway, those who don't will probably throw up their hands in despair and then either select the first option or give up and get other distro. So, in a way, the installer has a default anyway (given by the sort order), just done in a pretty annoying way and according to [3] not represesting the user base. I'm not aware of any other major distribution requiring this kind of decision during their installation - is there one?
What might stay doubtful? - Would changing a radio button really drive lots of users and contributors to us?
It could. I have already heard from people how SUSE used to be a great KDE distro and then Novell pushed GNOME and whatever and they went elsewhere. And SUSE used to be an outstanding KDE distribution and I think it still is, it's just that we ourselves (=SUSE) don't seem to point that out recently.
Some other observations I have with respect about this feature: - inviting people through blogs, web pages, mailing lists or twitter to vote has potential to set the credibility of the voting system at risk as people not involved with openSUSE or not using openSUSE express their thoughts
:-/ ... no way to prevent that, though, and where does one set the limit of who still is worthy voting and who is not?
- the feature shows the success of opening up the openSUSE project. Few years ago decisions were made by Novell and nowadays decisions are challenged by our community.
If this feature gets approved, it would certainly show that openSUSE is really open and not just something that Novell fully controls.
- I'm pretty happy about the way the discussion is handled (impartial, no bashing etc.)
Maybe it just has raised up so quickly that non-KDE people haven't found out yet :). -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 084 672 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 July 2009 15:23:17 Lubos Lunak wrote:
[...] It could. I have already heard from people how SUSE used to be a great KDE distro and then Novell pushed GNOME and whatever and they went elsewhere. And SUSE used to be an outstanding KDE distribution and I think it still is, it's just that we ourselves (=SUSE) don't seem to point that out recently.
But openSUSE is also a great GNOME distribution - how can we point out properly that openSUSE has both? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Friday 31 July 2009 15:27:15 Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Friday 31 July 2009 15:23:17 Lubos Lunak wrote:
[...] It could. I have already heard from people how SUSE used to be a great KDE distro and then Novell pushed GNOME and whatever and they went elsewhere. And SUSE used to be an outstanding KDE distribution and I think it still is, it's just that we ourselves (=SUSE) don't seem to point that out recently.
But openSUSE is also a great GNOME distribution - how can we point out properly that openSUSE has both?
I'm sure we now do a better job of promoting that than Canonical do for Kubuntu and that would not change. For me this feature is about 2 things - First, the project taking the obvious step to recognise what the majority of our users want and give them that. This would go a long way to undoing the 'Novell is evil' smell that we can't shake off. Secondly, giving openSUSE a very strong distinctive feature as a first- rank distribution that says 'We offer KDE by default because it's what our users want' compared to other first-rank distributions. Kubuntu and Pardus aren't in that category and our current "The distro that offers great KDE and GNOME desktops" position isn't perceived by many people outside our close circle of contributors - they take Ubuntu because it's highly successful, or Kubuntu because it's related to Ubuntu. This should not weaken our support for GNOME, XFCE or anything else. Look at Kubuntu, which has become a successful project in its own right despite initial hostility and neglect from Canonical, or Fedora-kde, which has a contributor community that is of the about the same size as the openSUSE-kde community. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Will Stephenson<wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
But openSUSE is also a great GNOME distribution - how can we point out properly that openSUSE has both?
I'm sure we now do a better job of promoting that than Canonical do for Kubuntu and that would not change.
For me this feature is about 2 things -
First, the project taking the obvious step to recognise what the majority of our users want and give them that. This would go a long way to undoing the 'Novell is evil' smell that we can't shake off.
What is it, exactly, that "the majority of our users want," here? A default? That doesn't seem likely, as our users already know how to get KDE and having an additional click isn't exactly a major impediment to this. Or is it the political statement?
Secondly, giving openSUSE a very strong distinctive feature as a first- rank distribution that says 'We offer KDE by default because it's what our users want' compared to other first-rank distributions. Kubuntu and Pardus aren't in that category and our current "The distro that offers great KDE and GNOME desktops" position isn't perceived by many people outside our close circle of contributors - they take Ubuntu because it's highly successful, or Kubuntu because it's related to Ubuntu.
How is this a "feature" exactly? It doesn't make our KDE any better, easier to use, etc. It just means we've said "we recommend this over that." GNOME by default for Ubuntu means that Canonical has chosen to focus most of its efforts on GNOME, and the community can work on KDE and they'll support that a bit. If you're wanting the inverse of this, this feature doesn't get that -- it only means that the project will recommend one over the other.
This should not weaken our support for GNOME, XFCE or anything else. Look at Kubuntu, which has become a successful project in its own right despite initial hostility and neglect from Canonical, or Fedora-kde, which has a contributor community that is of the about the same size as the openSUSE-kde community.
Then the feature is pointless -- if you're trying to achieve the inverse of what Ubuntu and Fedora have with GNOME, it would require an actual *focus on KDE. And that's not on the table, so what we'll have is a political statement just to say "lots of our users use KDE and want us to make a political statement that we'll wave the KDE flag a bit higher than the GNOME flag." I've always liked that openSUSE is the "big tent" distro that supports both. I've gone back and forth between KDE, GNOME, Xfce and other desktops over the years and found that it doesn't suit me to be with a distro that alienates the other major desktops. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 July 2009 16:10:35 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Will Stephenson<wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
But openSUSE is also a great GNOME distribution - how can we point out properly that openSUSE has both?
I'm sure we now do a better job of promoting that than Canonical do for Kubuntu and that would not change.
For me this feature is about 2 things -
First, the project taking the obvious step to recognise what the majority of our users want and give them that. This would go a long way to undoing the 'Novell is evil' smell that we can't shake off.
What is it, exactly, that "the majority of our users want," here? A default? That doesn't seem likely, as our users already know how to get KDE and having an additional click isn't exactly a major impediment to this.
Or is it the political statement?
Secondly, giving openSUSE a very strong distinctive feature as a first- rank distribution that says 'We offer KDE by default because it's what our users want' compared to other first-rank distributions. Kubuntu and Pardus aren't in that category and our current "The distro that offers great KDE and GNOME desktops" position isn't perceived by many people outside our close circle of contributors - they take Ubuntu because it's highly successful, or Kubuntu because it's related to Ubuntu.
How is this a "feature" exactly? It doesn't make our KDE any better, easier to use, etc. It just means we've said "we recommend this over that."
GNOME by default for Ubuntu means that Canonical has chosen to focus most of its efforts on GNOME, and the community can work on KDE and they'll support that a bit. If you're wanting the inverse of this, this feature doesn't get that -- it only means that the project will recommend one over the other.
I have never suggested an inverse Canonical+GNOME. I am talking about a political statement, but those terms are loaded with plenty of negative connotations. Call it a marketing direction. We market to the clear preferences of our existing users (in most places a 70/30 split is pretty clear - look at the enterprise Linux market). We market to a large and vibrant developer community - it's clear that the majority of future innovation in openSUSE is going to come from the community. And a largely untapped community rather than one already aligned with our two largest competitors. So call it a strategic shift, call it a marketing move, call it a political statement, but recognise the benefits.
This should not weaken our support for GNOME, XFCE or anything else. Look at Kubuntu, which has become a successful project in its own right despite initial hostility and neglect from Canonical, or Fedora-kde, which has a contributor community that is of the about the same size as the openSUSE-kde community.
Then the feature is pointless -- if you're trying to achieve the inverse of what Ubuntu and Fedora have with GNOME, it would require an actual *focus on KDE. And that's not on the table, so what we'll have is a political statement just to say "lots of our users use KDE and want us to make a political statement that we'll wave the KDE flag a bit higher than the GNOME flag."
You're putting words in my mouth there - I am quite aware what's on the table. Political statements can have 0 direct relevance to openSUSE but a large negative effect on us as a distribution, take the Microsoft deal. This one would have a net positive effect. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Will Stephenson<wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
I have never suggested an inverse Canonical+GNOME. I am talking about a political statement, but those terms are loaded with plenty of negative connotations. Call it a marketing direction. We market to the clear preferences of our existing users (in most places a 70/30 split is pretty clear - look at the enterprise Linux market). We market to a large and vibrant developer community - it's clear that the majority of future innovation in openSUSE is going to come from the community. And a largely untapped community rather than one already aligned with our two largest competitors. So call it a strategic shift, call it a marketing move, call it a political statement, but recognise the benefits.
I cede that there are possible benefits, but there are also consequences -- and I think that the negative consequences outweigh the potential benefits. Pro: * We may invigorate our KDE users to become contributors * We may encourage some KDE contributors to choose openSUSE * We demonstrate that openSUSE Project is truly open enough to make decisions independent of Novell Don't think for a second that I don't support the last point heavily. I just don't think this is the right decision. Con: * We may alienate our GNOME users -- while a smaller percentage than our KDE users, ~30% of the community is still important to me. * We may alienate our GNOME contributors * We will not encourage any GNOME contributors to choose openSUSE if they're not already here * We probably wind up having further conversations about "defaults" with future releases, such as burying GNOME to "other" with 11.3, or worse.
This should not weaken our support for GNOME, XFCE or anything else. Look at Kubuntu, which has become a successful project in its own right despite initial hostility and neglect from Canonical, or Fedora-kde, which has a contributor community that is of the about the same size as the openSUSE-kde community.
Then the feature is pointless -- if you're trying to achieve the inverse of what Ubuntu and Fedora have with GNOME, it would require an actual *focus on KDE. And that's not on the table, so what we'll have is a political statement just to say "lots of our users use KDE and want us to make a political statement that we'll wave the KDE flag a bit higher than the GNOME flag."
You're putting words in my mouth there - I am quite aware what's on the table.
Political statements can have 0 direct relevance to openSUSE but a large negative effect on us as a distribution, take the Microsoft deal. This one would have a net positive effect.
That's where we disagree - I feel it would be net negative. Only time would tell, of course, but my tally differs from yours. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 July 2009 16:49:10 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
Con:
* We may alienate our GNOME users -- while a smaller percentage than our KDE users, ~30% of the community is still important to me. * We may alienate our GNOME contributors * We will not encourage any GNOME contributors to choose openSUSE if they're not already here
A default desktop decision in favour of KDE won't please our GNOME users or contributors, but it will actually stimulate and catalyse the openSUSE GNOME community and those around XFCE and other WMs. I've already mentioned Kubuntu and fedora-kde as examples of this effect - both of them flourish as a mirror image of their distributions' stated defaults. Call it the red rag to a bull effect.
* We probably wind up having further conversations about "defaults" with future releases, such as burying GNOME to "other" with 11.3, or worse.
You're extrapolating too far again here. What evidence can you give for this? Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Fredag den 31. juli 2009 17:10:47 skrev Will Stephenson:
On Friday 31 July 2009 16:49:10 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
Con:
* We may alienate our GNOME users -- while a smaller percentage than our KDE users, ~30% of the community is still important to me. * We may alienate our GNOME contributors * We will not encourage any GNOME contributors to choose openSUSE if they're not already here
A default desktop decision in favour of KDE won't please our GNOME users or contributors, but it will actually stimulate and catalyse the openSUSE GNOME community and those around XFCE and other WMs. I've already mentioned Kubuntu and fedora-kde as examples of this effect - both of them flourish as a mirror image of their distributions' stated defaults. Call it the red rag to a bull effect.
Maybe it should be added that Fedora (~40% KDE) and *buntu (~33% KDE) both have a considerably higher percentage of KDE users, than the openSUSE percentage of GNOME users (22-25%). As KDE4 starts to mature and gain momentum I don't see that changing. So while the current no-default situation has alienated a lot of KDE users, it hasn't really succeeded in attracting GNOME users. It's a complete failure, and it would be best to correct the mistake that was made. I believe Debian uses as default whatever is most often installed. Maybe we should figure out a way to do the same. Then we wouldn't need to discuss, and noone could claim it was a political statement. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 July 2009 17:35:04 Martin Schlander wrote:
I believe Debian uses as default whatever is most often installed. Maybe we should figure out a way to do the same. Then we wouldn't need to discuss, and noone could claim it was a political statement.
I am told that Debian 5.0 hides KDE under Advanced Options :/. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le vendredi 31 juillet 2009, à 17:35 +0200, Martin Schlander a écrit :
Maybe it should be added that Fedora (~40% KDE) and *buntu (~33% KDE) both have a considerably higher percentage of KDE users, than the openSUSE percentage of GNOME users (22-25%).
Just wondering: where did you get those figures? Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Fredag den 31. juli 2009 17:47:01 skrev Vincent Untz:
Le vendredi 31 juillet 2009, à 17:35 +0200, Martin Schlander a écrit :
Maybe it should be added that Fedora (~40% KDE) and *buntu (~33% KDE) both have a considerably higher percentage of KDE users, than the openSUSE percentage of GNOME users (22-25%).
Just wondering: where did you get those figures?
For *buntu I heard Mark Shuttleworth state that Kubuntu accounts for 1/3 of the downloads in several interviews: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-9838094-39.html Fedora: http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/118197 The openSUSE numbers are based on the 10.3 and 11.0 surveys. Of course none of these stats are 100% reliable. But it's what we have. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
From my perspective oS won't be the biggest/greatest KDE distribution because of an additional radio button but because of its technical implementation as well as the awesome support provided by the OBS to both stable and developer editions of oS - that's a real strength we have compared to e.g. Ubuntu or Fedora or Mandriva or whatever. Another point to differentiate from other projects is care - oS's KDE implementation reflects care imho - something one couldn't say about e.g. Kubuntu. Let me raise another question here: Are we the greatest KDE distribution already? I think we are, just due to other (much more important) reasons. Just remember how much work have been put into backporting KDE4.2 features in 11.1's KDE4.1 implementation or the
Fellow community members, I have to admit that I haven't read all your comments yet, but I'd like to take the opportunity to share my very personal point of view. Frank Karlitschek's arguments for an additional radio button, i.e. a default selection of KDE, doesn't make too much sense to me. Neither would a default selection of GNOME do btw - here's why... Confusion to new users? Honestly, whatever distribution you choose, you need to inform yourself beforehand about the desktop selection. oS LiveCDs are available for test-driving and we always have the opportunity to higher knowledge about desktop environments to new users - that's what we should concentrate on in that context from my perspective. oS being the only big KDE distribution? maintenance of even two KDE editions for a rather long time. KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on? Don't they have one already - oS? What does a default selection of KDE contributes to it? Honestly I simply can't see your point here. increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community? This is the major issue I'd like to comment on. From my perspective our BIG strength is, that we support choice - I mean a REAL choice. We have excellent implementations of both GNOME and KDE, that's something we really differentiate from other projects. Frank Karlitschek outlines a potentially positive effect within the KDE community and if he proves right, imho it's not the best argument for the objectiveness of this community - with due respect. Shouldn't the actual implementation of KDE and the care of the oS project for the KDE community be the actual reason KDE community members should use oS? Is a radio button really a better argument? I don't know - I can't see this point. What I see as a MUCH bigger issue is the influence to the GNOME community. A decision to select KDE as the default just sets them apart - much more than to express an appreciation to the KDE community imho. GNOME definitely is the "little sister" of KDE in our distribution (no question) but I explicitly use the word "sister" here - KDE folks, i.e. Frank Karlitschek, think about the bad impact such a decision would have for GNOME. Shouldn't we think as "the oS community" rather then a KDE and a GNOME "battleline"? Think about it - I hope you feel my thoughts helpful. Best, Rupert (long-time oS GNOME user) -- Rupert Horstkötter, openSUSE community http://en.opensuse.org/User:Rhorstkoetter Email: rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-07-31 at 18:37 +0200, Rupert Horstkötter wrote: ...
What I see as a MUCH bigger issue is the influence to the GNOME community. A decision to select KDE as the default just sets them apart - much more than to express an appreciation to the KDE community imho. GNOME definitely is the "little sister" of KDE in our distribution (no question) but I explicitly use the word "sister" here - KDE folks, i.e. Frank Karlitschek, think about the bad impact such a decision would have for GNOME. Shouldn't we think as "the oS community" rather then a KDE and a GNOME "battleline"?
Absolutely. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpzfAwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W+5ACfZlfduxUszxE8HaTKSkL956pm LD8An3Ck3eAyHBNzZQ2lFLCQHf1aFFsb =9FVc -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 18:37:49 +0200, Rupert Horstkötter wrote:
What I see as a MUCH bigger issue is the influence to the GNOME community. A decision to select KDE as the default just sets them apart - much more than to express an appreciation to the KDE community imho. GNOME definitely is the "little sister" of KDE in our distribution (no question) but I explicitly use the word "sister" here - KDE folks, i.e. Frank Karlitschek, think about the bad impact such a decision would have for GNOME. Shouldn't we think as "the oS community" rather then a KDE and a GNOME "battleline"?
Very well stated, and I agree with this 100%. Jim (a fellow long-time openSUSE GNOME user) -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Martin Schlander<martin.schlander@gmail.com> wrote:
I believe Debian uses as default whatever is most often installed. Maybe we should figure out a way to do the same. Then we wouldn't need to discuss, and noone could claim it was a political statement.
Debian's "Debian on the Desktop" page is instructive here, assuming it's still up to date. :-) http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-desktop/ The first tenet: "Recognizing that both GNOME and KDE as well as many Desktop frameworks like GNUstep, GTK, Qt and others exist, we will support the use of them, and make sure they work well on Debian. KDE and GNOME are the primary choices for a default environment for the end user. Supporting other desktop environments such as XFCE would be nice as well, depending on developer time and space constraints." Who knew that Debian and openSUSE had so much in common? Then reading further it asks for testing of the "Desktop Default Environment" task (**or kde-desktop task) which suggests it's GNOME -- but this is also for Woody, so, who knows what it is these days? Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 31. Juli 2009 16:49:10 schrieb Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier:
Con:
* We may alienate our GNOME users -- while a smaller percentage than our KDE users, ~30% of the community is still important to me. * We may alienate our GNOME contributors * We will not encourage any GNOME contributors to choose openSUSE if they're not already here * We probably wind up having further conversations about "defaults" with future releases, such as burying GNOME to "other" with 11.3, or worse.
What I do not understand from a user's point of view is the following. In this thread it is argumented that having a default or even having a pre-selection on that installation page would send a message which could offend, insult, disappoint etc. Gnome users. Fair enough, let's say I agree with that, i.e. pre-selecting and even more so defaulting to a DE offends, insults, disappoints. Then there are a) a lot of distros that do so and still have more users than openSUSE and b) and far more importantly, since who cares about other distros?, Novell and those managing SLE have to admit that they send that exact message to the KDE world/users. Do they acknowledge that? I think that if one does not, one applies double standards. Even if there are reasons that might justify the defaulting, the message is sent. If I take your Cons, then SLE alienates KDE users, contributors and does not encourage KDE contributors to choose SLE. Sounds pretty harsh to me. Would all those claiming that there is an alleged "anti-Gnome message" in pre-selecting KDE agree that SLE sends and even clearer "anti-KDE message"? Further, and I stole this from somebody else ;), the argument that having a default or at least a pre-selection is useful, e.g. because it would make it easier for new users, is denied by some. If one denies the need for a default even for openSUSE which is aimed at all users from newbies to experts, then one surely has to agree that a default makes even less sense if a product is aimed mostly at experts. Or does it make sense to anyone that one has to take the decision off the shoulders of an expert but not of those of a newbie or normal user? Yet for the SLE products which are mostly installed by admins, which clearly have a clue of what DE they want, get a default. So those need a default while openSUSE users don't? What's the justification for that default? Most SLE users want Gnome? Easing the installation process? Proposing the better technology? I fail to see what argument could be offered that would not apply for openSUSE as well. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 21:57:40 +0200, Sven Burmeister wrote:
What I do not understand from a user's point of view is the following. In this thread it is argumented that having a default or even having a pre-selection on that installation page would send a message which could offend, insult, disappoint etc. Gnome users.
Considering the claim from some in the KDE community that they're offended, insulted, disappointed, etc because KDE isn't a preferred/ default/first selection, it seems reasonable to apply that metric evenly across the memberships of both groups of users, no?
If I take your Cons, then SLE alienates KDE users, contributors and does not encourage KDE contributors to choose SLE. Sounds pretty harsh to me. Would all those claiming that there is an alleged "anti-Gnome message" in pre-selecting KDE agree that SLE sends and even clearer "anti-KDE message"?
No moreso than Kubuntu sends an anti-GNOME message to Ubuntu users. SLE is a derivation of openSUSE. That it prefers GNOME over KDE isn't IMHO any more significant than any other distro having a derived distribution that uses a different package set or desktop environment. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 7. August 2009 00:45:27 schrieb Jim Henderson:
On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 21:57:40 +0200, Sven Burmeister wrote:
What I do not understand from a user's point of view is the following. In this thread it is argumented that having a default or even having a pre-selection on that installation page would send a message which could offend, insult, disappoint etc. Gnome users.
Considering the claim from some in the KDE community that they're offended, insulted, disappointed, etc because KDE isn't a preferred/ default/first selection, it seems reasonable to apply that metric evenly across the memberships of both groups of users, no?
At least it would be a consistent line of argumentation for all subjective points, such as wich DE is better etc. Not so for objectively measurable points like user numbers.
If I take your Cons, then SLE alienates KDE users, contributors and does not encourage KDE contributors to choose SLE. Sounds pretty harsh to me. Would all those claiming that there is an alleged "anti-Gnome message" in pre-selecting KDE agree that SLE sends and even clearer "anti-KDE message"?
No moreso than Kubuntu sends an anti-GNOME message to Ubuntu users. SLE is a derivation of openSUSE. That it prefers GNOME over KDE isn't IMHO any more significant than any other distro having a derived distribution that uses a different package set or desktop environment.
Why would the "treat them equally" stop there? Your argumentation is not valid in my opinion since there is no KDE derivation like SLE, hence there is a negative message sent to KDE from the SLE people. If there was, I would agree with you. There is a KDE Live CD, yet there is a Gnome Live CD as well, so they cancel each other out. Yet there is only one SLE and it gets extra resources. So how come this is not prefering one over the other? Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 08:17:45 +0200, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Freitag, 7. August 2009 00:45:27 schrieb Jim Henderson:
On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 21:57:40 +0200, Sven Burmeister wrote:
What I do not understand from a user's point of view is the following. In this thread it is argumented that having a default or even having a pre-selection on that installation page would send a message which could offend, insult, disappoint etc. Gnome users.
Considering the claim from some in the KDE community that they're offended, insulted, disappointed, etc because KDE isn't a preferred/ default/first selection, it seems reasonable to apply that metric evenly across the memberships of both groups of users, no?
At least it would be a consistent line of argumentation for all subjective points, such as wich DE is better etc. Not so for objectively measurable points like user numbers.
I don't understand what you're trying to say. It seems to me that what you're trying to say is that it's OK for the KDE camp to use this argument to get their way, but not OK for the GNOME camp to use this as a defense against the change. That seems inherently unfair, but so does this whole idea that giving KDE equal treatment isn't fair, but giving KDE preferential treatment (in the form of a default selection in the installer) somehow is. "Fair" in and of itself implies a form of equality, so calling an equal situation "unfair" and an unequal situation "fair" doesn't parse for me.
No moreso than Kubuntu sends an anti-GNOME message to Ubuntu users. SLE is a derivation of openSUSE. That it prefers GNOME over KDE isn't IMHO any more significant than any other distro having a derived distribution that uses a different package set or desktop environment.
Why would the "treat them equally" stop there? Your argumentation is not valid in my opinion since there is no KDE derivation like SLE, hence there is a negative message sent to KDE from the SLE people. If there was, I would agree with you.
Of course someone who wants to see this go through would see my point as invalid - because it invalidates the desire to have the choice pre-made that you want. That is hardly surprising to me. ;-) There's no GNOME derivation of Ubuntu like Kubuntu, so obviously it's invalid to look at Ubuntu in that way either, right?
There is a KDE Live CD, yet there is a Gnome Live CD as well, so they cancel each other out. Yet there is only one SLE and it gets extra resources. So how come this is not prefering one over the other?
SLE is a derived distribution. There are two possible views of this: 1. SLE's userbase is important here, in which case we have to consider the install base of SLE when comparing GNOME to KDE installations for openSUSE 2. SLE's userbase isn't important here and the fact that Novell made a corporate decision on the DE for its derived distribution based on openSUSE is irrelevant #1 in my mind is patently ridiculous, because SLE is a derivation of openSUSE. But if you want to apply that "bias" from SLE, then you also have to include those installations in the analysis of which desktop is the most popular for openSUSE. You can't cherry-pick the elements of #1 and #2 above that favour your position and ignore the implications of those cherry-picked statistics. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
One thing that I have come to see over the past couple of days is that there is enough disagreement in the community on this issue to say "let's just leave it like we have it". No matter what option we choose it will have ramifications in the community. If it were only a few people in disagreement with each other then I would say the choice might not be that big of an issue. But haven't we seen enough disagreement on this issue to know that a move to anything other than the current default behavior will have a dramatic affect on the openSUSE community? Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Aug 07, 09 10:11:57 -0600, Joe Harmon wrote:
One thing that I have come to see over the past couple of days is that there is enough disagreement in the community on this issue to say "let's just leave it like we have it". No matter what option we choose it will have ramifications in the community.
Right. Who are we to know in advance, which button the user would want to hit? We cannot. Only the computer on which we do the install may have a chance to 'know' that. Each system should have a small config section, somewhere in the flash or on the hard-disk. Later installs could review there, what was previously installed. I know this is the ambitious, but it would be a start in making things consistent. cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 10:11:57 -0600, Joe Harmon wrote:
But haven't we seen enough disagreement on this issue to know that a move to anything other than the current default behavior will have a dramatic affect on the openSUSE community?
Well, I think there's room for compromise, which is what the proposal I put forth a few days ago was an attempt at. The compromise being that since the selection on that screen doesn't really affect a lot of users' choice, go ahead and make the default KDE as long as there's a clear understanding that GNOME is presented as an obvious option (to borrow Matt's phrasing). As long as the KDE camp is willing to concede that GNOME is and should be presented as an obvious choice, the GNOME camp should be willing to conceded that KDE is the preferred choice by most members of the community and is reasonable to list as a default choice. That option provides (I feel) sufficient balance and both sides come away with something, and both sides have to give up something. That seems a good way to compromise. It's arguable whether the gains/losses are 100% equal, but in compromise, not everything is necessarily 100% equal. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Joe Harmon wrote:
One thing that I have come to see over the past couple of days is that there is enough disagreement in the community on this issue to say "let's just leave it like we have it". No matter what option we choose it will have ramifications in the community. If it were only a few people in disagreement with each other then I would say the choice might not be that big of an issue. But haven't we seen enough disagreement on this issue to know that a move to anything other than the current default behavior will have a dramatic affect on the openSUSE community?
Joe
It might just cause a real ruckus if openfates most popular request with a clear 4:1 majority in favour was completely ignored................... * *Votes:* 507 * *Positive:* 395 * *Neutral:* 8 * *Negative:* 104 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
One thing that I have come to see over the past couple of days is that there is enough disagreement in the community on this issue to say "let's just leave it like we have it". No matter what option we choose it will have ramifications in the community. If it were only a few people in disagreement with each other then I would say the choice might not be that big of an issue. But haven't we seen enough disagreement on this issue to know that a move to anything other than the current default behavior will have a dramatic affect on the openSUSE community?
From my reading of the exchanges, there are only a very small number of people who are complaining loudly. Some people are putting forward proposals for compromises. Most people are staying out of the ruckus.
I don't see any harm to either group or the openSuSE community here, apart from the very divisive statements being made by a small number of individuals. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 07 August 2009 12:44:39 pm Administrator wrote:
From my reading of the exchanges, there are only a very small number of people who are complaining loudly. Some people are putting forward proposals for compromises. Most people are staying out of the ruckus.
Thanks to Matt Gray, I "found" the Toggle Statistics link and numbers behind. The openFATE votes tell that 522 people voted, and only 8 neutral. The whole 405 is pro and 109 against change. The total number of the votes is reached after 12 days. Easy Beagle removal has 204 votes, after 192 days. That tells much about users feelings about the issue, and it seems that issue is that users want all that SUSE was before KDE was moved to second place, as a first step in a whole line of miscalculations, that led to current status that keeps around only die hard SUSEaners. While Ubuntu started way later then SUSE/openSUSE, by now, it is bigger then all major distros taken together, specially looking at the interest generated in Windows world. I'm pretty sure that skilled marketing - starting with ability to order free CDs, is not all that makes it popular. -- Regards, Rajko http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 7. August 2009 17:00:11 schrieb Jim Henderson:
At least it would be a consistent line of argumentation for all subjective points, such as wich DE is better etc. Not so for objectively measurable points like user numbers.
I don't understand what you're trying to say. It seems to me that what you're trying to say is that it's OK for the KDE camp to use this argument to get their way, but not OK for the GNOME camp to use this as a defense against the change.
Absolutely not, and it's hard to read that into it. If one claims that pre-selecting one or the other hurts that community, it is valid for both or none in any situation. Pick your side and stay with it. However, if one wants to have a pre-selected desktop, which is a completely different question, one has to make a choice. that choice cannot be based on subjective arguments, such as "which desktop is better" but only on objective ones.
That seems inherently unfair, but so does this whole idea that giving KDE equal treatment isn't fair, but giving KDE preferential treatment (in the form of a default selection in the installer) somehow is. "Fair" in and of itself implies a form of equality, so calling an equal situation "unfair" and an unequal situation "fair" doesn't parse for me.
Indeed, yet further down...
No moreso than Kubuntu sends an anti-GNOME message to Ubuntu users. SLE is a derivation of openSUSE. That it prefers GNOME over KDE isn't IMHO any more significant than any other distro having a derived distribution that uses a different package set or desktop environment.
Why would the "treat them equally" stop there? Your argumentation is not valid in my opinion since there is no KDE derivation like SLE, hence there is a negative message sent to KDE from the SLE people. If there was, I would agree with you.
Of course someone who wants to see this go through would see my point as invalid - because it invalidates the desire to have the choice pre-made that you want. That is hardly surprising to me. ;-)
There's no GNOME derivation of Ubuntu like Kubuntu, so obviously it's invalid to look at Ubuntu in that way either, right?
...you try to get away from your own argument. If there is a derivation that defaults to Gnome there has to be a derivation that defaults to KDE. Anything else is not equal and hence unfair. Yet here you suddenly come up with an exception to the rule to justify SLE. If neither SLE nor openSUSE would have any defaults, it would also be equal and hence fair. Yet that is not the case. It's simple maths. Ubuntu is a Gnome default, Kubuntu is a KDE default, Xubuntu is a XFCE default, all treated equally. All get one default. SLE is a Gnome default, openSUSE has no default, KDE Live CD is a KDE default, Gnome Live CD is a Gnome default. Two defaults for Gnome and one for KDE. And SLE gets extra resources, so it's not like SLE would simply be a second Gnome Live CD. But hey, maths is invalid and 2 == 1.
There is a KDE Live CD, yet there is a Gnome Live CD as well, so they cancel each other out. Yet there is only one SLE and it gets extra resources. So how come this is not prefering one over the other?
SLE is a derived distribution. There are two possible views of this:
1. SLE's userbase is important here, in which case we have to consider the install base of SLE when comparing GNOME to KDE installations for openSUSE
2. SLE's userbase isn't important here and the fact that Novell made a corporate decision on the DE for its derived distribution based on openSUSE is irrelevant
Ah, I see. There had to be a decision for SLE, an extra product which gets extra resources. the decision was to default to Gnome. That decision, to prefer one of them is yet irrelevant and does not send a message? Come on, that's too obvious. If that was true, making a decision for opensuse would not send a message either, because both are products, claiming that SLE is less important is really lame, but I'll get to that later on. It's exactly what I mean. Arguments and consequences of making a decision that are valid for openSUSE are denied for SLE and vice versa, that is not consistent.
#1 in my mind is patently ridiculous, because SLE is a derivation of openSUSE.
I guess derivation is the argument you need to hold your claim, since without it you could not make 2 == 1. If SLE was not a derivation the decision would suddenly be more important and sending a message? So what makes the derivation that much less important?, actually equalling zero, since anything else would not sum up to 1 = 1, i.e. equality and fairness. So how can we measure importance? I guess in a business world and Novell is about business, money, i.e. resources, is a good measurement for what you think it important to you. Pre-selecting KDE in openSUSE does not take any money from Gnome and it does not add any money to KDE. Yet according to you it would send a message. Producing a Gnome defaulting derivation and investing extra resources into that project does however not send a message. Because putting money into something, e.g. a derivation, does not really mean anything and is irrelevant...
But if you want to apply that "bias" from SLE, then you also have to include those installations in the analysis of which desktop is the most popular for openSUSE. You can't cherry-pick the elements of #1 and #2 above that favour your position and ignore the implications of those cherry-picked statistics.
This is really lame, honestly. But thanks for showing the message that obviously. Adding the numbers of a product that defaults to x to the numbers of a product that does not default to anything ─ no there is no bias in that, perfectly valid it is! I guess I give up, since it's hopeless to discuss as long as people apply double standards and make excuses to justify that what is valid for product A does not apply to product B, not even the tiniest bit. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 18:43:29 +0200, Sven Burmeister wrote:
I guess I give up, since it's hopeless to discuss as long as people apply double standards and make excuses to justify that what is valid for product A does not apply to product B, not even the tiniest bit.
<sigh> You want to see my argument as applying a double standard when it's emphatically not. I'm tired of trying to explain this over and over again. I've made my proposal, and it seems to be gaining acceptance, so rather than try *again* to explain it and have some try to misconstrue what I'm saying, I'll just leave this branch of the discussion and say that *clearly* you don't understand what I'm trying to say here. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Sven Burmeister wrote:
What I do not understand from a user's point of view is the following. In this thread it is argumented that having a default or even having a pre-selection on that installation page would send a message which could offend, insult, disappoint etc. Gnome users.
Fair enough, let's say I agree with that, i.e. pre-selecting and even more so defaulting to a DE offends, insults, disappoints. Then there are a) a lot of distros that do so and still have more users than openSUSE and b) and far more importantly, since who cares about other distros?, Novell and those managing SLE have to admit that they send that exact message to the KDE world/users. Do they acknowledge that? I think that if one does not, one applies double standards. Even if there are reasons that might justify the defaulting, the message is sent.
If I take your Cons, then SLE alienates KDE users, contributors and does not encourage KDE contributors to choose SLE. Sounds pretty harsh to me. Would all those claiming that there is an alleged "anti-Gnome message" in pre-selecting KDE agree that SLE sends and even clearer "anti-KDE message"?
Further, and I stole this from somebody else ;), the argument that having a default or at least a pre-selection is useful, e.g. because it would make it easier for new users, is denied by some. If one denies the need for a default even for openSUSE which is aimed at all users from newbies to experts, then one surely has to agree that a default makes even less sense if a product is aimed mostly at experts. Or does it make sense to anyone that one has to take the decision off the shoulders of an expert but not of those of a newbie or normal user?
Yet for the SLE products which are mostly installed by admins, which clearly have a clue of what DE they want, get a default. So those need a default while openSUSE users don't? What's the justification for that default? Most SLE users want Gnome? Easing the installation process? Proposing the better technology? I fail to see what argument could be offered that would not apply for openSUSE as well.
Sven
+1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-07-31 at 16:41 +0200, Will Stephenson wrote:
Political statements can have 0 direct relevance to openSUSE but a large negative effect on us as a distribution, take the Microsoft deal. This one would have a net positive effect.
Not for gnome users/contributors/collaborators. Not for me. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpzWIMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UaSgCfRS9LNcQtz7YR0QRP6J9oxWDJ ROoAn0sHivZZDEx3pIKsv3DBIx0DsxET =dDut -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 July 2009 15:52:58 Will Stephenson wrote:
On Friday 31 July 2009 15:27:15 Andreas Jaeger wrote:
[...] But openSUSE is also a great GNOME distribution - how can we point out
On Friday 31 July 2009 15:23:17 Lubos Lunak wrote: properly that openSUSE has both?
I'm sure we now do a better job of promoting that than Canonical do for Kubuntu and that would not change.
For me this feature is about 2 things -
First, the project taking the obvious step to recognise what the majority of our users want and give them that. This would go a long way to undoing the 'Novell is evil' smell that we can't shake off.
Secondly, giving openSUSE a very strong distinctive feature as a first- rank distribution that says 'We offer KDE by default because it's what our users want' compared to other first-rank distributions. Kubuntu and Pardus aren't in that category and our current "The distro that offers great KDE and GNOME desktops" position isn't perceived by many people outside our close circle of contributors - they take Ubuntu because it's highly successful, or Kubuntu because it's related to Ubuntu.
This should not weaken our support for GNOME, XFCE or anything else. Look at Kubuntu, which has become a successful project in its own right despite initial hostility and neglect from Canonical, or Fedora-kde, which has a contributor community that is of the about the same size as the openSUSE-kde community.
To me a switch to KDE default looks like putting GNOME one row to the back. Can we find a better solution than we currently have without giving out this message? Or is this no great alternative? I'm just brainstorming loud below, perhaps somebody else gets a great idea: For example, we can also change the wording on the desktop selection dialog. * Saying "openSUSE strives to have the best GNOME and KDE desktops" doesn't sound helpful. * We say right now "As desktop selection is a matter of taste, we do not give a recommendation.". What about "Desktop selection is a matter of taste - and GNOME and KDE are both first-class desktops in openSUSE. Right now two thirds of our users prefer KDE and a quarter GNOME"? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Friday 31 of July 2009, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
To me a switch to KDE default looks like putting GNOME one row to the back. Can we find a better solution than we currently have without giving out this message? Or is this no great alternative?
There are really 2 ways to look at feature #306967: 1) Make KDE the default, and make it a political statement. That is what the openFATE proposal looks like, that we should say "openSUSE is primarily a KDE distribution". 2) Make KDE the default, and try to not make it look like a political statement. This is what the proposal on this mailing list looks like, to preselect the KDE radio button in the installation page, and that's it, don't make a fuss of it. Option 1) is tempting, as I think there would be a lot to gain, but even option 2) is an improvement, purely for the user experience. So, first of all, can we all make sure we are discussing the same thing? -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 084 672 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Lubos Lunak<l.lunak@suse.cz> wrote:
Option 1) is tempting, as I think there would be a lot to gain, but even option 2) is an improvement, purely for the user experience.
So, first of all, can we all make sure we are discussing the same thing?
If we were only discussing option 2, I wouldn't really be against it. But I don't think for a second that if we go the route of having a selected default that it won't be seen as a political statement. Maybe not an "official project statement" but it will certainly be discussed as such. As Will said earlier "I am talking about a political statement" -- and that's where the proposal loses me. This *isn't really about simplifying user choice, it's about making a political statement and the rest of the reasons seem tacked on to me as reasons to support doing it. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 of July 2009, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Lubos Lunak<l.lunak@suse.cz> wrote:
Option 1) is tempting, as I think there would be a lot to gain, but even option 2) is an improvement, purely for the user experience.
So, first of all, can we all make sure we are discussing the same thing?
If we were only discussing option 2, I wouldn't really be against it.
But I don't think for a second that if we go the route of having a selected default that it won't be seen as a political statement. Maybe not an "official project statement" but it will certainly be discussed as such.
As Will said earlier "I am talking about a political statement" -- and that's where the proposal loses me. This *isn't really about simplifying user choice, it's about making a political statement and the rest of the reasons seem tacked on to me as reasons to support doing it.
Well, it just shows that this is not about limiting the choice, when two KDE people here see it differently :). Will is clearly for 1), and while that actually makes a lot of sense to me too, I like being careful and think 2) is more feasible for now. That page during installation is clearly wrong, strictly technically speaking. Even users who don't know have to chose, and the preferred choice is not at the top, so unaware users will choose something that is used by a (relative) minority. That should be fixed, and I, being the engineer I am, like going for simpler tasks first. It would also show the KDE community that Novell does not push openSUSE for GNOME no matter what as is the perception, and I consider that worth more than the GNOME community being disappointed by the fact that they are not the default desktop when they are not it anyway. Especially if this was done without the fuss, but I guess it may be too late for that. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 084 672 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 of July 2009, Lubos Lunak wrote:
Especially if this was done without the fuss, but I guess it may be too late for that.
Definitely, now that I see it has also reached Planet SUSE. Whatever we do now, it will be a political statement, even if we do not do anything, in which case it will be a political statement that won't be liked by the KDE community. "openSUSE does not want to aknowledge that KDE has always been the desktop used by the majority of its users" is no worse to upset KDE people than "openSUSE has the KDE radiobutton selected by default because GNOME has only 1/3 of KDE users" is for GNOME people. Keeping current enforced status quo and denying our userbase is a message too. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-07-31 at 18:03 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
As Will said earlier "I am talking about a political statement" -- and that's where the proposal loses me. This *isn't really about simplifying user choice, it's about making a political statement and the rest of the reasons seem tacked on to me as reasons to support doing it.
Well, it just shows that this is not about limiting the choice, when two KDE people here see it differently :). Will is clearly for 1), and while that actually makes a lot of sense to me too, I like being careful and think 2) is more feasible for now.
That page during installation is clearly wrong, strictly technically speaking. Even users who don't know have to chose, and the preferred choice is not at the top, so unaware users will choose something that is used by a (relative) minority. That should be fixed, and I, being the engineer I am, like going for simpler tasks first. It would also show the KDE community that Novell does not push openSUSE for GNOME no matter what as is the perception, and I consider that worth more than the GNOME community being disappointed by the fact that they are not the default desktop when they are not it anyway. Especially if this was done without the fuss, but I guess it may be too late for that.
I would prefer a random order, or an alfabetical order. But I agree that ordering on the number of users of each desktop is also appropiate - provided this fact is written somewhere on that window. By the way, how do you clasify people that use two or more desktop types? On which side do you count them? Because I use both gnome and kde... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpzgeEACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VULQCgjT9RRP/o17SC04Rj7+nprSr1 XFoAnRNZnRrTGjFXuPgdDdpwP8x0//Dc =N+Um -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2009/7/31 Lubos Lunak <l.lunak@suse.cz>:
On Friday 31 of July 2009, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
To me a switch to KDE default looks like putting GNOME one row to the back. Can we find a better solution than we currently have without giving out this message? Or is this no great alternative?
There are really 2 ways to look at feature #306967:
1) Make KDE the default, and make it a political statement. That is what the openFATE proposal looks like, that we should say "openSUSE is primarily a KDE distribution".
2) Make KDE the default, and try to not make it look like a political statement. This is what the proposal on this mailing list looks like, to preselect the KDE radio button in the installation page, and that's it, don't make a fuss of it.
Option 1) is tempting, as I think there would be a lot to gain, but even option 2) is an improvement, purely for the user experience.
So, first of all, can we all make sure we are discussing the same thing?
IMHO any of them will have more effect in Gnome than in KDE... and the Gnome effect will not be a good one. If you want - KDE devs: talk about how great openSUSE KDE is in planetkde.org. - Gnome users to switch: a default will not make them switch. - New users: they will change to another distro to avoid making a desktop selection... you expect them to be able to create an useful bug report? Before they will be "useful users" they will try both desktops at some point anyway. If we really want to help the "next-next user", giving him a default, and we want to be representative of the user base... make the default random, adjusting the probability of each option from http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf or whatever source of this info we have. But I would keep the no default... at most make the sort order random. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Lubos Lunak <l.lunak@suse.cz> writes:
On Friday 31 of July 2009, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
To me a switch to KDE default looks like putting GNOME one row to the back. Can we find a better solution than we currently have without giving out this message? Or is this no great alternative?
There are really 2 ways to look at feature #306967:
1) Make KDE the default, and make it a political statement. That is what the openFATE proposal looks like, that we should say "openSUSE is primarily a KDE distribution".
2) Make KDE the default, and try to not make it look like a political statement. This is what the proposal on this mailing list looks like, to preselect the KDE radio button in the installation page, and that's it, don't make a fuss of it.
Option 1) is tempting, as I think there would be a lot to gain, but even option 2) is an improvement, purely for the user experience.
So, first of all, can we all make sure we are discussing the same thing?
I hate to say it but: to those familiar with the gnome-kde discussions, a preselection of eitehr of them always will be recieved and understood as a statement about the other one, too. It's like setting emacs as the default editor (or vi): it's a statement about the 'others'. And I wonder wheter the luxury of having one click less is worth tenderly and inadvertently yet unavoidably stepping on the toes of 1/3 of our users? S. -- Susanne Oberhauser +49-911-74053-574 SUSE -- a Novell Business OPS Engineering Maxfeldstraße 5 Processes and Infrastructure Nürnberg SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-08-01 at 01:03 +0200, Susanne Oberhauser wrote:
I hate to say it but: to those familiar with the gnome-kde discussions, a preselection of eitehr of them always will be recieved and understood as a statement about the other one, too.
It's like setting emacs as the default editor (or vi): it's a statement about the 'others'.
And I wonder wheter the luxury of having one click less is worth tenderly and inadvertently yet unavoidably stepping on the toes of 1/3 of our users?
Absolutely :-( - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpzgksACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V+gQCgmDy9HM3YH3HePxeV2vlmUUSO on4Aniu7KLTD6bE1KaRhmzUKQkeyZxU8 =CgyD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 01 of August 2009, Susanne Oberhauser wrote:
I hate to say it but: to those familiar with the gnome-kde discussions, a preselection of eitehr of them always will be recieved and understood as a statement about the other one, too.
To those familiar with SUSE, a no preselection is understood as a statement too. A not nice statement, for the majority.
It's like setting emacs as the default editor (or vi): it's a statement about the 'others'.
We do have vi as the default editor. I don't remember ever anybody considering that a political statement or us forcing users to make a decision here.
And I wonder wheter the luxury of having one click less is worth tenderly and inadvertently yet unavoidably stepping on the toes of 1/3 of our users?
And now imagine 2/3 of our users, with their toes already sore. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hello, 2009-08-01 01:03 keltezéssel, Susanne Oberhauser írta:
It's like setting emacs as the default editor (or vi): it's a statement about the 'others'.
Well, I don't recall, that it was ever discussed here, or on the factory list...
And I wonder wheter the luxury of having one click less is worth tenderly and inadvertently yet unavoidably stepping on the toes of 1/3 of our users?
That huge step on toes was done already when KDE was not default any more. Many of my friends left openSUSE to Kubuntu, Mandriva and even PCBSD. For different reasons, but I switched from KDE to openSUSE XFCE (started to use low power machines, and there XFCE fits better, than figured out, that is is also a hell lot faster on workstations :-). Still, I'd recommend KDE for strictly practical reasons: - there a lot more KDE users, so one can get KDE help easier, also Packman supports it better from my experience (yes, I try GNOME from time to time) - it is confusing for new users, that there is no default. And contrary to what was already said, new users don't research, they download and try. I already got a couple of phone calls asking what to choose, and always recommended KDE for the above reasons. Bye, CzP -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-08-01 at 11:15 +0200, Peter Czanik wrote:
That huge step on toes was done already when KDE was not default any more. Many of my friends left openSUSE to Kubuntu, Mandriva and even PCBSD.
I can't believe that. The people I know left over the kde3/4 debate. Some have written that KDE works better elsewhere, or that the intel driver works better. To me, I have always felt that KDE was, and is, top boy in openSUSE. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp0DmwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UI4QCfTaRGmLLmRL0qHR5KeqSwEvGM iT8AmwRtYAQMg+evqiRjEgi+MVxVr8PD =H4BO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
To me, I have always felt that KDE was, and is, top boy in openSUSE.
I remember a moment where we feared kde could be dropped in favor of Gnome. I'm glad it never happenned jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-08-01 at 11:46 +0200, jdd (kim2) wrote:
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
To me, I have always felt that KDE was, and is, top boy in openSUSE.
I remember a moment where we feared kde could be dropped in favor of Gnome. I'm glad it never happenned
I never feared that. It would have been a blow to me. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp0EdUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V+nQCgmR320QTDSwz6EHApbHvrpU4Q xNAAnjREs4TrcsZ3k5gwLNBandw6Inz/ =cR9+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Friday 31 of July 2009, Lubos Lunak wrote:
On Friday 31 of July 2009, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
To me a switch to KDE default looks like putting GNOME one row to the back. Can we find a better solution than we currently have without giving out this message? Or is this no great alternative?
There are really 2 ways to look at feature #306967:
1) Make KDE the default, and make it a political statement. That is what the openFATE proposal looks like, that we should say "openSUSE is primarily a KDE distribution".
2) Make KDE the default, and try to not make it look like a political statement. This is what the proposal on this mailing list looks like, to preselect the KDE radio button in the installation page, and that's it, don't make a fuss of it.
Actually, I take this back, as I think I completely misinterpreted feature #306967 here. After careful reading again and thinking about it, I see it now like this: - the only request there is "make KDE the default desktop". It is nowhere asked that openSUSE focuses primarily on KDE or that GNOME is neglected. In fact, it explicitly states that GNOME should remain supported as a choice. - this can be achieved by preselecting the KDE radiobutton during installation and nothing more - everything else in the feature is a description of benefits of doing so (and only doing so, without expressing any explicit focus on KDE or anything similar) This is actually not asking to make KDE special in any way or to grant KDE any additional priviledge. It is the common practice in openSUSE to select the technically best solution, and in case that is not feasible for whatever reason, the most popular solution. Therefore GNOME has the special priviledge of being presented completely equally (or actually with a slight advantage by being first) with what in all other cases would be the presented default selection in a choice or would be used without a choice at all. The feature asks for applying the common practice to the desktop selection, in other words, the feature actually asks for removal of the priviledge that GNOME currently has. There is no further request related to KDE or GNOME other than this. As for political messages, we currently do have a political message. The current existing priviledge for GNOME, despite trying to look like treating choices equal, actually makes GNOME special by what is described above, thus not treating everything in openSUSE equally. This creates a message towards other openSUSE communities, primarily the major KDE community, that they are only 2nd class citizens in openSUSE and that the GNOME community is valued more in openSUSE. Also, openSUSE got asked by the community using openFATE to change this. Therefore even not doing anything is stressing the existing political message. Since openSUSE positions now itself as an open community distribution, this may be jeopardized by refusing what appears to be a reasonable request from the majority of our community. I also believe the pros/cons conclusions in the original mail of this thread are somewhat wrong, mainly since they miss the analysis of what happens when the current situation stays. For the case when the feature is refused, it is sufficient to take all argument against it and look at them from the other side. So far all reasons supporting keeping the GNOME exception, as presented here, appear to make either equal or worse harm than when turned around and viewed as reasons for making KDE the default desktop. Finally, as a member of the KDE team I would like to say that I believe that just doing the radiobutton change, without anything else, has the potentional to achieve what the feature suggests. Compared to other potential users and contributors it should be simpler to gain back portion of the ones that have been driven away by the existing anti-KDE messaging from openSUSE but would have otherwise stayed. If openSUSE stops suggesting that GNOME is more important for openSUSE, and removal of the GNOME exception might be sufficient for that, those might be willing to give openSUSE a try again. KDE people also now do not have a major distribution they could consider a distribution supporting KDE, since that was us and our current position discourages KDE involvement in openSUSE. If the perception that openSUSE favours GNOME was removed, again these potentional users and contributors could be easier to convert from their distribution that sees KDE as something minor to us, if they could be convinced that openSUSE would treat them at least equally. That is not the case currently however, for reasons explained above. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 19:51:24 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
Actually, I take this back, as I think I completely misinterpreted feature #306967 here. After careful reading again and thinking about it, I see it now like this:
- the only request there is "make KDE the default desktop". It is nowhere asked that openSUSE focuses primarily on KDE or that GNOME is neglected. In fact, it explicitly states that GNOME should remain supported as a choice.
- this can be achieved by preselecting the KDE radiobutton during installation and nothing more
- everything else in the feature is a description of benefits of doing so (and only doing so, without expressing any explicit focus on KDE or anything similar)
Setting the radiobutton to pre-select KDE does specify a preference of the project. How about instead incorporating a suggestion made elsewhere in the discussion: - Change the radiobuttons to checkboxes - Pre-select *both* KDE and GNOME This option would put both on equal footing and shouldn't alienate anyone - additionally, it overrides the perception that because GNOME is listed first there's some sort of special preference (personally I've never seen it that way but understand why some people think that an alphabetical sort does provide a preference - unfortunately something always has to come first). This suggestion gives the most "politically neutral" installation screen since it specifically states (and text can be added to the effect) that both KDE and GNOME are equally important to the project. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Søndag den 2. august 2009 20:44:13 skrev Jim Henderson:
On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 19:51:24 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
Actually, I take this back, as I think I completely misinterpreted feature #306967 here. After careful reading again and thinking about it, I see it now like this:
- the only request there is "make KDE the default desktop". It is nowhere asked that openSUSE focuses primarily on KDE or that GNOME is neglected. In fact, it explicitly states that GNOME should remain supported as a choice.
- this can be achieved by preselecting the KDE radiobutton during installation and nothing more
- everything else in the feature is a description of benefits of doing so (and only doing so, without expressing any explicit focus on KDE or anything similar)
Setting the radiobutton to pre-select KDE does specify a preference of the project.
Yes. The preference of 70% of our users. And stop trying to pretend that the current non-default with GNOME on top isn't seen as specification of a preference by everybody.
How about instead incorporating a suggestion made elsewhere in the discussion:
- Change the radiobuttons to checkboxes - Pre-select *both* KDE and GNOME
This option would put both on equal footing and shouldn't alienate anyone
I can't believe this idea still lives. It doesn't solve *any* of the problems that the feature request tries to address (confusion for new users, alienating the vast majority of our community etc.). Instead it'd make matters much worse than the status quo and creates a ton of new problems - bloat, waste of disk space, menu clutter, alienating KDE *and* GNOME fanboys, what to (auto)login to on first boot.. etc. It's a horrible idea. The idea of randomized sort order is a bit better - but still a non-solution to the actual problems. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Martin Schlander<martin.schlander@gmail.com> wrote:
And stop trying to pretend that the current non-default with GNOME on top isn't seen as specification of a preference by everybody.
It may be seen as a "specification of a preference" by some, but saying "by everybody" is a major stretch. I think you're assuming that new users and people with no particular stake in the desktop selection are going to give a lot more importance to what's on top/bottom than they are. If I get a menu of some kind, and it has two or three options - I don't automatically assume the one that's "on top" is being recommended -- just a fact that if you're going to sort something top to bottom one of the things has to be on top. Just because it was written "Lennon & McCartney" didn't mean that John was getting "top" billing. :-) I do agree with Martin that installing both -- while having some merits -- would be creating a bunch of new problems. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 03 August 2009 03:11:44 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
Just because it was written "Lennon & McCartney" didn't mean that John was getting "top" billing. :-)
No, but it did irk McCartney enough about songs that he individually wrote, that when he released a live album he changed the credits to McCartney/Lennon. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2588347.stm According to the article, the Lennon/McCartney order had been made by Epstein and Lennon before McCartney turned up one day, and an agreement was made that it could be reversed later on. :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 21:05:17 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
Setting the radiobutton to pre-select KDE does specify a preference of the project.
Yes. The preference of 70% of our users.
Perhaps it's their preference because older releases pushed KDE on them (I don't know, I started using SUSE Linux in the release 9 days). Perhaps if they'd been given a choice of GNOME, they'd have chosen it, but now they're used to KDE so that's what they use because they're comfortable with it. I know that's the reason I use GNOME - it's what I'm comfortable with.
And stop trying to pretend that the current non-default with GNOME on top isn't seen as specification of a preference by everybody.
I am a member of "everybody" and I don't see it that way. Therefore, the above statement is categorically false. ;)
How about instead incorporating a suggestion made elsewhere in the discussion:
- Change the radiobuttons to checkboxes - Pre-select *both* KDE and GNOME
This option would put both on equal footing and shouldn't alienate anyone
I can't believe this idea still lives.
It's a *GOOD* idea.
It doesn't solve *any* of the problems that the feature request tries to address (confusion for new users, alienating the vast majority of our community etc.).
Instead it'd make matters much worse than the status quo and creates a ton of new problems - bloat, waste of disk space, menu clutter, alienating KDE *and* GNOME fanboys, what to (auto)login to on first boot.. etc. It's a horrible idea.
For those who know better, they can deselect one or the other. It's not a default *installation* option, it's a default *selection* option. For users who don't know what they would prefer, it provides an option for them to try *both* environments. For those who know what their preference is, they can deselect the one they don't want. So I can deselect KDE and go on my way. You can deselect GNOME and go on your way. I again have to state that I don't understand what it is that this vocal minority of KDE users is so afraid of when it comes to having GNOME available as a selection or installed alongside KDE.
The idea of randomized sort order is a bit better - but still a non-solution to the actual problems.
IMHO, there isn't really a "problem" here to be solved, other than a problem that to me appears to be manufactured, that of somehow "alienating" KDE users by NOT forcing KDE on all users as a default choice. By selecting KDE as a default, the project *does* favour one DE over the other. Those who say they want the two to be treated equally but then say "let's select KDE as the default for users who don't know which they want" very specifically *isn't* treating them as equal choices, so at the very least those who propose KDE be selected as default should just honestly say that they're pushing for a preference for KDE instead of pretending that it's giving both DEs equal treatment when it's not. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Søndag den 2. august 2009 21:33:57 skrev Jim Henderson:
I again have to state that I don't understand what it is that this vocal minority of KDE users is so afraid of when it comes to having GNOME available as a selection or installed alongside KDE.
You keep saying that, even though it's not the case. Noone has ever suggested not having GNOME available. What's being discussed is moving KDE on top and preselecting the radiobutton - GNOME wouldn't be hidden and it wouldn't require a single additional click to select a GNOME desktop compared to the status quo - so what you're saying is completely wrong. A small change that - as has been argued over and over - would bring a ton of benefits for the project - with very minor damage to the GNOME sub-community as the only downside. And we may be vocal - but we're just saying what everybody's thinking - including a great deal of users who have left. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 21:50:38 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
Søndag den 2. august 2009 21:33:57 skrev Jim Henderson:
I again have to state that I don't understand what it is that this vocal minority of KDE users is so afraid of when it comes to having GNOME available as a selection or installed alongside KDE.
You keep saying that, even though it's not the case. Noone has ever suggested not having GNOME available.
The root cause of this discussion goes back, from what I recall, to the alphabetization of the DE environment selection menu in the installer. That's when this whole kerfuffle started, because the KDE users felt that it was inappropriate to list GNOME first in the alphabetized list.
What's being discussed is moving KDE on top and preselecting the radiobutton - GNOME wouldn't be hidden and it wouldn't require a single additional click to select a GNOME desktop compared to the status quo - so what you're saying is completely wrong.
A small change that - as has been argued over and over - would bring a ton of benefits for the project - with very minor damage to the GNOME sub-community as the only downside.
If it's minor damage to the GNOME sub-community, then leaving it as is is very minor damage to the KDE sub-community. What I (and others) have proposed by letting both be selected by default makes the "damage" (or, as I prefer it, "perceived damage" because honestly, I think that the amount of *actual* damage is much less than those who want this change would have us believe) would be even less damaging to the community because it says "we value choice, and BOTH are valid choices".
And we may be vocal - but we're just saying what everybody's thinking - including a great deal of users who have left.
Again, I'm part of "everybody" and I'm not thinking that, so the above statement is categorically false. ;) You don't want to know my opinion of people who would leave a major project like openSUSE over such a trivial part of the overall system. If the installer changes to KDE as a default selection, I won't stop using openSUSE, but I will be disappointed that - if that decision is made - that the project's guiding principle that says we value choice was determined to be not as important as making a vocal minority of KDE users happy. But in the final analysis, if GNOME stays on the menu (which I know nobody has suggested it not stay), then this affects me about 5 times, once for each system upgrade. I'm just floored that there are members of the KDE community who are so wound up over something that is so inherently trivial. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 1:15 PM, Jim Henderson<hendersj@gmail.com> wrote:
You don't want to know my opinion of people who would leave a major project like openSUSE over such a trivial part of the overall system.
FINALLY! someone said it ( ... and you used 'kerfuffle'. bonus points!). amen! i can't help but wonder aloud which does more "damage" to the community -- choosing, or not choosing, a given button -- or the perception a 'new user' gets from reading a thread like this, debating commitment to, or lack thereof, a given bunch of "fanboys". mgmt by committee. sigh. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 20:15 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 21:50:38 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
And we may be vocal - but we're just saying what everybody's thinking - including a great deal of users who have left.
Again, I'm part of "everybody" and I'm not thinking that, so the above statement is categorically false. ;)
You don't want to know my opinion of people who would leave a major project like openSUSE over such a trivial part of the overall system.
If the installer changes to KDE as a default selection, I won't stop using openSUSE, but I will be disappointed that - if that decision is made - that the project's guiding principle that says we value choice was determined to be not as important as making a vocal minority of KDE users happy.
I would be very disappointed, and would stop being proud of being a member of this community. I would no longer feel a part of this project and welcomed. :-/
But in the final analysis, if GNOME stays on the menu (which I know nobody has suggested it not stay), then this affects me about 5 times, once for each system upgrade. I'm just floored that there are members of the KDE community who are so wound up over something that is so inherently trivial.
Nobody has suggested removing gnome - yet. That may be a next move. If the majority can decide to harm the minority, as this proposal is doing right now, what is there to stop them doing more damage? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp2GyoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Xh1wCghUu4MtTowtywYbVEK5LvNkIR iIwAniGCK5aSKU31dlgSQhHRHLgxgzgu =8GXF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 03 of August 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I would be very disappointed, and would stop being proud of being a member of this community. I would no longer feel a part of this project and welcomed. :-/
Welcome to the world of feeling like a KDE openSUSE user. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 01:08:58 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
On Monday 03 of August 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I would be very disappointed, and would stop being proud of being a member of this community. I would no longer feel a part of this project and welcomed. :-/
Welcome to the world of feeling like a KDE openSUSE user.
Why on earth would not having KDE selected as default make you feel that way? I'm really trying to understand this, but "being the default choice" doesn't make KDE *equal* to GNOME, it makes it *preferred* to GNOME. As it stands right now, the two are equal. If moving KDE to the top of the list in the installation screen will make you happy, fine, make that change and leave the default selection off. If the order presented in the installation screen is that important to you, KDE can be first on the list as far as I'm concerned. Just don't impose a default selection. Problem solved. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Martin Schlander escribió:
And we may be vocal - but we're just saying what everybody's thinking - including a great deal of users who have left.
If users left is not because KDE was 2nd, but because you (the kde devs) force an unstable KDE4 when nobody wants it. The reason of this request if very, very simple, you are afraid to lose market, and want to force new users to use your DE. The reasons of the proposal are just bs. Besides that, you are clamming, "if you don't approve our request, the kde community will be very upset"... come on!!! Want to put kde on top? if so important to you, do it. But no DE selected as default. - -- Kind regards. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEAREIAAYFAkp2BwcACgkQNHr4BkRe3pLN0gCgs2YUAGSy2ZXXTC0nu0eX5/9Q bWUAn0iHfz0IwDCY/8u3XhHdtXVH8QNn =Ks76 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Il giorno dom, 02/08/2009 alle 21.05 +0200, Martin Schlander ha scritto:
And stop trying to pretend that the current non-default with GNOME on top isn't seen as specification of a preference by everybody.
It's not perceived in that way by me. But I have nothing against moving KDE at the top if this is reassuring for KDE users. [joking mode on]One could think to randomize the order, put them in diagonal, horizontally...[/off] ;-)
Instead it'd make matters much worse than the status quo and creates a ton of new problems - bloat, waste of disk space, menu clutter, alienating KDE *and* GNOME fanboys, what to (auto)login to on first boot.. etc. It's a horrible idea.
I agree. I was among those who pushed to have a clean GNOME installation without any trace of KDE for what possible. I don't see how installing two DE's by default can help. And this decision is *not* a joke, it will have consequences on the future of the distribution, so please *be realistic* and use a grain of salt when proposing something!
The idea of randomized sort order is a bit better - but still a non-solution to the actual problems.
The actual problems have *nothing* to do with the default desktop. I have been hammering for too long about them I really lost any interest in opening the discussion again, but do not pretend that choosing a default desktop will fix automatically increase the number of users and contributors as someone in the KDE team is suggesting. It is simply an unfounded statement. Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
The actual problems have *nothing* to do with the default desktop.
They *do*. We keep sending our largest user base a signal that there are others that are considered more important for openSUSE.
but do not pretend that choosing a default desktop will fix automatically increase the number of users and contributors as someone in the KDE team is suggesting. It is simply an unfounded statement.
I didn't say it will automatically do that. What I said was that it has a good potential of doing that, better than keeping the current way. However, what I also said was that not choosing the default desktop will decrease the number. Been there, tried that, it worked. And this statement is founded, by this very distribution. We can try to show it again by confirming the current status, but I thought the point was making openSUSE grow, not shrink. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 22:14:51 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
The actual problems have *nothing* to do with the default desktop.
They *do*. We keep sending our largest user base a signal that there are others that are considered more important for openSUSE.
Lubos, you keep saying this, but how does an equal selection imply one is more important than the other? I really don't follow your logic here. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2 Aug 2009, Jim Henderson wrote:
Lubos, you keep saying this, but how does an equal selection imply one is more important than the other? I really don't follow your logic here.
The desktop environment selection in the installer is the sole and very prominent case where we don't provide a default choice of technology (or, in fact, where we highlight technology options at that level). We do not have this for postfix vs sendmail vs exim, vi vs Emacs vs Xemacs, nor many others. And while this is not the topic of the present discussion, it can and has been argued that skipping the entire dialog by default like we do in all those other cases would simplify installation, especially for non-expert users. To be clear, I am not suggesting such a more drastic change though it would make sense from a usability point of view. Sometimes community trumps usability. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management F +49(911)74053-483 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances GF Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 00:36:56 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Sun, 2 Aug 2009, Jim Henderson wrote:
Lubos, you keep saying this, but how does an equal selection imply one is more important than the other? I really don't follow your logic here.
The desktop environment selection in the installer is the sole and very prominent case where we don't provide a default choice of technology (or, in fact, where we highlight technology options at that level).
But at the same time, the desktop selection is a *personal* choice and reflects the users' preferences. Lubos prefers KDE, so he is free to choose that. I prefer GNOME, so I'm free to chose that. Let me bring another idea to the conversation. It has been argued (not in this discussion, but elsewhere) that the complexity of KDE's multiple options is something that overwhelms new users. Now, new user coming to Linux installed openSUSE 11.2 (or later) and KDE4 is the default selection. First impressions of new users about Linux *could* (I'm not saying will, because I haven't used KDE4 very much at all myself) be that Linux is complex, difficult, and while it provides a lot of customization options, they find the multitude of options confusing. So the first impression is "Linux is complex and difficult" because KDE isn't developed for the "new user", it's developed (as I understand it) for the *experienced* Linux user. *I'm* a better fit for the target audience for KDE than someone who's never used Linux before. Next, there's bound to be a bunch of hacked off KDE3 fanboys who would prefer to see KDE4 relegated to a second option because it's not mature/ not ready/not as flexible/doesn't work the way they're used to things working. So once a decision is taken that KDE becomes the "default" selection, now it becomes a discussion of *which* KDE becomes the default. So now we get an additional level of complexity. Do we go with the shiny new KDE4 so openSUSE is perceived as cutting edge, or do we go with the stable/established KDE3 release because it better meets the needs of KDE users? At what point does the discussion about the default selection stop?
We do not have this for postfix vs sendmail vs exim, vi vs Emacs vs Xemacs, nor many others.
This is true, but these components also are expert usage components - people who prefer sendmail over postfix (or vice versa) are *experienced* users who know the pros and cons of using one over the other and have made a conscious choice because of their installation's needs. The DE selection is something that influences every user, new and experienced, and is the most visible piece.
And while this is not the topic of the present discussion, it can and has been argued that skipping the entire dialog by default like we do in all those other cases would simplify installation, especially for non-expert users. To be clear, I am not suggesting such a more drastic change though it would make sense from a usability point of view. Sometimes community trumps usability.
I would think that usability would be the #1 end goal - if a system is unusable (or less usable, don't take my comment to imply that KDE has usability issues, I don't believe it does), if the goal is to grow the community, than usability should trump community. I guess it depends on whether you want to satisfy an existing community to the extent that that satisfaction trumps increasing the size of the community dramatically. SUSE has gone through a lot of transformation over the years - moving from being (as I understand/recall) a Slack-derived distribution to using RPM for package management. I'm sure at the time that happened, many of the existing community hated the change, citing instances of "RPM hell similar to Windows' DLL hell", problems with dependency resolution, etc, etc, etc. Yet the change was made to use RPM because that's what was decided would move the distribution forward. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 02 August 2009 18:38, Jim Henderson wrote:
So now we get an additional level of complexity. Do we go with the shiny new KDE4 so openSUSE is perceived as cutting edge, or do we go with the stable/established KDE3 release because it better meets the needs of KDE users? KDE3, no question, hands down..... & gnome. -- Kind regards,
M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Lubos Lunak escribió:
They *do*. We keep sending our largest user base a signal that there are others that are considered more important for openSUSE.
Where the hell are you getting that impression???? We all know kde is the openSUSE's 'spoiled child' - -- Kind regards. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEAREIAAYFAkp2CFkACgkQNHr4BkRe3pJ4DgCZAV9baMf6GY00eWsyn9ZoXJNi W94AoK35JodHHLipAlKWq2dI9XzkuDbD =YYr8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 02 August 2009 04:42:49 pm Gabriel wrote:
Lubos Lunak escribió:
They *do*. We keep sending our largest user base a signal that there are others that are considered more important for openSUSE.
Where the hell are you getting that impression???? We all know kde is the openSUSE's 'spoiled child'
KDE is SUSE - that is what made SUSE distinct and good distro. If SUSE would use GNOME, I would be using something else now. I was first complaining when KDE was set as default, but, just as it happened recently with KDE4, KDE was very fast a very good and usable desktop, while GNOME was broken in many details, for a while. Using GNOME distro like Red Hat, didn't help much to make me feel good. Nice graphics, some changes instantly applied without need to press a single key, was impressive, but missing many configuration tools that were available in KDE wasn't any help. Even smooth availability of Windows shares, comparing to SUSE somewhat complicated ways, wasn't enough to convince me to stay with Red Hat learning GNOME. On the other hand, smooth GNOME comparing to KDE4 was for sure feature that saved some users from wandering off the openSUSE camp in the last few releases, so we do need both. Taking that GNOME can't procrastinate changes, and is somewhat late to the fest, it can happen that in the near future we will see KDE4 rescuing openSUSE, this time from the GNOME rebirth problems. I guess that KDE default might be a good choice for next few releases, like having GNOME default for past few releases would help to have more users. This world is competitive place and there is many companies fighting for user attention. Throwing experimental software on non suspecting people without warning, will not help to gain followers. (It didn't in the past, and that will not change.) -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Il giorno dom, 02/08/2009 alle 22.14 +0200, Lubos Lunak ha scritto:
On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
The actual problems have *nothing* to do with the default desktop.
They *do*. We keep sending our largest user base a signal that there are others that are considered more important for openSUSE.
but do not pretend that choosing a default desktop will fix automatically increase the number of users and contributors as someone in the KDE team is suggesting. It is simply an unfounded statement.
I didn't say it will automatically do that. What I said was that it has a good potential of doing that, better than keeping the current way.
Actually that was exactly the point made by wstephenson at the project meeting. And I would like to understand what is preventing users now to contribute to KDE or to openSUSE in general. I can find various reasons, but I really do not think the default desktop or the lack of it is among them. The summary of this discussion is that everyone perceives openSUSE as a distribution with a strong KDE implementation. So why should pre-selecting a desktop in an installation screen make any difference (in both senses) is not really clear to me, if the goal is not another one.
However, what I also said was that not choosing the default desktop will decrease the number. Been there, tried that, it worked. And this statement is founded, by this very distribution. We can try to show it again by confirming the current status, but I thought the point was making openSUSE grow, not shrink.
Where are evidences of this. I mean the evidences that specifically the lack of a default desktop is the cause of lack of contribution or of shrinkage of the user base. Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 14:46:24 -0500, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
I was among those who pushed to have a clean GNOME installation without any trace of KDE for what possible.
The suggestion of installing both does not preclude a clean installation that includes no elements of either GNOME or KDE.
I don't see how installing two DE's by default can help.
By giving users who don't know which they would prefer the opportunity to try them both out and make an informed decision based on how they work. How is that a BAD thing? Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
If users want to try, they can try both DE's, but doing that by default seems wrong to me. You would almost double the installation size, increase the installation time and so on. Best, A. Il giorno dom, 02/08/2009 alle 20.17 +0000, Jim Henderson ha scritto:
By giving users who don't know which they would prefer the opportunity to try them both out and make an informed decision based on how they work. How is that a BAD thing?
Jim
-- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 00:51:05 -0500, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
If users want to try, they can try both DE's, but doing that by default seems wrong to me. You would almost double the installation size, increase the installation time and so on.
Except that it's only by default. Users who want to try both out can. Users who don't want both can deselect the one they don't want. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 21:05:17 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
Instead it'd make matters much worse than the status quo and creates a ton of new problems - bloat, waste of disk space,
For those who don't know which they'll prefer, it's not a waste of disk space as it provides the option for them to try both. When they decide (if they decide) which they prefer, they can remove the one they don't want to use.
menu clutter,
As both KDE and GNOME have distinctly separate menus, I don't see this as an issue.
alienating KDE *and* GNOME fanboys,
Equal alienation, then - that's not a bad thing, as both are still on a level footing. But even then, this suggested "alienation" of KDE *and* GNOME fanboys is only going to happen with those who believe one way or the other that only one option should exist - a minority of both categories of user. To those who recognize that OSS is all about *choices*, providing the options exemplify what OSS is all about.
what to (auto)login to on first boot..
This is the only point of the list that I can agree with would be an issue. But as long as there are choices to be made (whether it be KDE/ GNOME, vi/emacs, gedit/kate, etc), you're going to have this type of an issue.
etc. It's a horrible idea.
I disagree that it's a "horrible idea". Let me put this question to those who want a KDE default selection: Is there ANY room for a compromise, or is it "our way or the highway"? I ask this because from my own participation in the discussion, I'm not seeing a lot of willingness to even *consider* a compromise that's anything less than "KDE selected as the default". When considering the technical merits of the two environments, they are roughly equivalent, so the selection being made (by the end user doing the installation) is a personal selection. I've seen parts of the discussion that say "well, we pre-select a filesystem", but that is a technical decision, not a question of personal preferences. There are rarely people new to Linux who know (or even care) about the differences between the different filesystems. But forcing one's personal *preference* on those new to using the product when the decision is a personalized decision is not, IMO, a good idea. After all, one of the guiding principles states that "we value choice. We accept and respect that there are different ways to work, different preferences for applications, environments, tools or interfaces and different goals of users and contributors. We value diversity and pluralism as a way of addressing the needs of a broad variety of people." How does providing a default choice of KDE (or GNOME/XFCE/whatever for that matter) fulfill this guiding principle when a desktop environment decision is a strictly *personal* choice? Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Søndag den 2. august 2009 22:03:31 skrev Jim Henderson:
Let me put this question to those who want a KDE default selection: Is there ANY room for a compromise, or is it "our way or the highway"?
The only (remotely sane) alternative I see is keeping the current mess. Possibly with random sort order. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 22:14:02 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
Søndag den 2. august 2009 22:03:31 skrev Jim Henderson:
Let me put this question to those who want a KDE default selection: Is there ANY room for a compromise, or is it "our way or the highway"?
The only (remotely sane) alternative I see is keeping the current mess. Possibly with random sort order.
Well, personally, I don't see the current situation as a "mess", but if a random sort order would make some of the "alienated" KDE users happy, I'm fine with that. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 20:19 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:
The only (remotely sane) alternative I see is keeping the current mess. Possibly with random sort order.
Well, personally, I don't see the current situation as a "mess", but if a random sort order would make some of the "alienated" KDE users happy, I'm fine with that.
Me too. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp2HHgACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V1EQCfdKreGrh8r37zKNkYKBU4wI0V PDUAniRo5rkitI6iZzbN6DesY0FpTaR3 =Mxjs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
What is so messy in the current situation? Nothing, so you need to change it? ;-) Il giorno dom, 02/08/2009 alle 22.14 +0200, Martin Schlander ha scritto:
The only (remotely sane) alternative I see is keeping the current mess. Possibly with random sort order.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Martin Schlander a écrit :
Yes. The preference of 70% of our users.
did somebody notice than *gnome* is the first choice, then *kde* is the most popular choice. So the list order is not so important, after all... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 22:46 +0200, jdd (kim2) wrote:
Martin Schlander a écrit :
Yes. The preference of 70% of our users.
did somebody notice than *gnome* is the first choice, then *kde* is the most popular choice.
So the list order is not so important, after all...
True :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp2HK0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UpJACeIurY/P3VEHN280njOnb41DTk CnQAnA1qC9G9p1Xg+ryJbdqc2FMgoyAW =U6VC -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 22:46:55 +0200, jdd (kim2) wrote:
Martin Schlander a écrit :
Yes. The preference of 70% of our users.
did somebody notice than *gnome* is the first choice, then *kde* is the most popular choice.
So the list order is not so important, after all...
Well observed. GNOME came first and KDE is still preferred by 70%, definitely demonstrates that the order really doesn't matter that much. So as I wrote elsewhere, if moving KDE to first position on that list makes the KDE community happy, by all means, do it. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 21:05 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
And stop trying to pretend that the current non-default with GNOME on top isn't seen as specification of a preference by everybody.
That's absolutely false. By some KDE zealots, sure. >:-P - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp2GZwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VwVwCeLnpK5rxtAgrYHL4H56rkOzmC fFkAniYG9OMaMJ/qmwz0JhdSVZS1w1Yb =7DRg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 02 August 2009 05:56:26 pm Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 21:05 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
And stop trying to pretend that the current non-default with GNOME on top isn't seen as specification of a preference by everybody.
That's absolutely false.
By some KDE zealots, sure. >:-P
It is seen as that, by many more then few loud here. In every other place, or any other situation, whoever wins hearts of majority is listed as No. 1, only in openSUSE desktop selection it is No. 2. On the other hand, how do you explain vigorous resistance to give up on a first place, even the numbers of users doesn't support that position. Isn't that somewhat off balance. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 19:29:22 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday 02 August 2009 05:56:26 pm Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 21:05 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
And stop trying to pretend that the current non-default with GNOME on top isn't seen as specification of a preference by everybody.
That's absolutely false.
By some KDE zealots, sure. >:-P
It is seen as that, by many more then few loud here.
In every other place, or any other situation, whoever wins hearts of majority is listed as No. 1, only in openSUSE desktop selection it is No. 2.
On the other hand, how do you explain vigorous resistance to give up on a first place, even the numbers of users doesn't support that position. Isn't that somewhat off balance.
If that's all the discussion is about, then put KDE at the top of the list and leave it set as no default selection. That's a concession from at least a few GNOME users. Now let's have the KDE users concede that a "default selection" of KDE doesn't make them *equal* (as some have claimed), but that it does relegate the GNOME users to be (as some KDE users have declared the state of KDE users is) "second- class citizens". Personally, I think that whole concept is rubbish, for reasons I've stated a few times in other parts of the discussion. I'd at least like to see some of the fervent and outspoken KDE users admit that setting KDE as a default selection doesn't make things *equal*, but instead makes it a *preference* (which is what they are really saying). I'm absolutely exhausted with this discussion. I've said my peace and don't expect to have anything new to say (though one never knows, I've asked a few questions that are unanswered and may have something to say about the answers to those questions). I'll just conclude with this: http://xkcd.com/198/ There's more I could say, but it wouldn't really change the minds of those who are dead-set against what I consider to be reasonable ideas. Sadly, I doubt there's much that would change their minds. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 02 August 2009 07:54:50 pm Jim Henderson wrote:
If that's all the discussion is about, then put KDE at the top of the list and leave it set as no default selection.
The whole discussion is about user perception of KDE status within openSUSE. It is not who will win place No. 1. KDE is the most used solution within openSUSE, so it is defacto No. 1. Current status is political rubbish that doesn't help anyone to feel good, as this whole thread shows. IMHO, good solution is to set one release KDE as default, the other GNOME. That would be equal status, and nobody will feel endangered. The message that sent to users will be clear, provided that . Not using any default is not helping new users at all, as it pushes our inability to make decision in this simple matter to the user.
I'm absolutely exhausted with this discussion.
:) -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 22:49:13 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday 02 August 2009 07:54:50 pm Jim Henderson wrote:
If that's all the discussion is about, then put KDE at the top of the list and leave it set as no default selection.
The whole discussion is about user perception of KDE status within openSUSE.
Well, my perception as a user is that KDE is the predominant desktop (not just from the surveys but because I know the makeup of the development team at SUSE, and know a few of them personally).
Current status is political rubbish that doesn't help anyone to feel good, as this whole thread shows.
Bingo. However most of the proposed solutions also are political rubbish that don't help anyone feel good. Certainly not helped by the few who won't feel good unless their solution is the one picked as the solution.
IMHO, good solution is to set one release KDE as default, the other GNOME. That would be equal status, and nobody will feel endangered. The message that sent to users will be clear, provided that .
Well, that is double the work (unless I misunderstand what you're saying here) and leaves those who actually want both with a point of decision to make - as well as no doubt the ensuing battle over which option gets listed first on the website. Unless your proposal is to alternate the default selection with each release - odd releases get GNOME as the default, even get KDE as the default. That would set 11.2 with a default selection of KDE and 11.3 with a default selection of GNOME. That might work. But I do think the installer should make it clear that both can be installed at the same time and provide that option, and certainly let the person doing the installation override any default set (if it's absolutely necessary that one be set, still not convinced that one *needs* to be set as the default).
Not using any default is not helping new users at all, as it pushes our inability to make decision in this simple matter to the user.
It belongs to the user, though. Providing the user with the information to make an informed decision (such as the liveCDs) is the right thing to do IMO. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 02 August 2009 11:16:00 pm Jim Henderson wrote:
Unless your proposal is to alternate the default selection with each release - odd releases get GNOME as the default, even get KDE as the default. That would set 11.2 with a default selection of KDE and 11.3 with a default selection of GNOME. That might work.
That is exactly what I meant.
But I do think the installer should make it clear that both can be installed at the same time and provide that option,
Sure. I've got chance to explain to few new users on IRC #suse channel that they can have both at the same time. IMHO, having radio buttons that allow only one choice is kind of counter productive in distro as openSUSE. It sends wrong message to the new users. Much better would be to have check boxes, that imply possibility of multiple choices. While one can run both at the same time, in 2 Xorg sessions, installer is asking to select only one. Why? To speed up installation? All, we have to do is put sentence on that page that tells that more desktops (software) you select, installation will last longer.
and certainly let the person doing the installation override any default set
That is requirement, for fairness to function. I really don't want to do another installation right after one is finished, which is not that bad, and removal of components that I don't use, which is currently a lot of manual work.
(if it's absolutely necessary that one be set, still not convinced that one needs to be set as the default).
It has to be.
Not using any default is not helping new users at all, as it pushes our inability to make decision in this simple matter to the user.
It belongs to the user, though. Providing the user with the information to make an informed decision (such as the liveCDs) is the right thing to do IMO.
Sincerely, DE is just another piece of software, and due to its size, requires serious introduction. Expecting user to read lengthy written introduction, when majority don't want to read manuals, is like expecting Godota :) Though, having a bit more sophisticated CD, that can be loaded in RAM, can be right thing. Today 2 GB RAM is very standard configuration, and CD image that lives in RAM can be configuration that many users would prefer, due to its speed. -- Regards, Rajko http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
I just notice there is an argument unused so far. * first let me say I think we really need a default selection, bieng sure any choice is still available; * Then I remember the discussion about the openSUSE release date and respective Kde/Gnome release date. So we could choose the first listed based on the release date. We can choose to default - to the last released, to have the newer version, at risk to have a less stable one - to the older one to have the most stable one jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 02 August 2009 20:44:13 Jim Henderson wrote:
On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 19:51:24 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
Actually, I take this back, as I think I completely misinterpreted feature #306967 here. After careful reading again and thinking about it, I see it now like this:
- the only request there is "make KDE the default desktop". It is nowhere asked that openSUSE focuses primarily on KDE or that GNOME is neglected. In fact, it explicitly states that GNOME should remain supported as a choice.
- this can be achieved by preselecting the KDE radiobutton during installation and nothing more
- everything else in the feature is a description of benefits of doing so (and only doing so, without expressing any explicit focus on KDE or anything similar)
Setting the radiobutton to pre-select KDE does specify a preference of the project.
How about instead incorporating a suggestion made elsewhere in the discussion:
- Change the radiobuttons to checkboxes - Pre-select *both* KDE and GNOME
This option would put both on equal footing and shouldn't alienate anyone - additionally, it overrides the perception that because GNOME is listed first there's some sort of special preference (personally I've never seen it that way but understand why some people think that an alphabetical sort does provide a preference - unfortunately something always has to come first).
You just postpone the decision, this will not help: Then we would continue to discuss whether GDM or KDM is started by default, whether a new user that does no changes gets a GNOME or KDE desktop etc... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 13:26:46 +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
This option would put both on equal footing and shouldn't alienate anyone - additionally, it overrides the perception that because GNOME is listed first there's some sort of special preference (personally I've never seen it that way but understand why some people think that an alphabetical sort does provide a preference - unfortunately something always has to come first).
You just postpone the decision, this will not help: Then we would continue to discuss whether GDM or KDM is started by default, whether a new user that does no changes gets a GNOME or KDE desktop etc...
Fair point. OK, so what's wrong with forcing the user to make a decision? Why is there an aversion to making the user make the determination for themselves? Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
You just postpone the decision, this will not help: Then we would continue to discuss whether GDM or KDM is started by default, whether a new user that does no changes gets a GNOME or KDE desktop etc...
Fair point. OK, so what's wrong with forcing the user to make a decision? Why is there an aversion to making the user make the determination for themselves?
We don't provide the user with enough information to make a rational choice, so the choice is random (based on name, appearance of desktop, sequence in the list, etc.) David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Administrator<admin@different-perspectives.com> wrote:
We don't provide the user with enough information to make a rational choice, so the choice is random (based on name, appearance of desktop, sequence in the list, etc.)
This is a fair point -- if someone is coming in *completely new. The question is, how many users are coming in *completely new? A lot of speculation, but I would suggest we don't really *know how many users are doing the installation without enough information to decide which desktop(s) they wish to install. My suspicion is that we are looking at less than five percent of new users who are so new to Linux that they don't know the difference between GNOME and KDE. If I were trying to introduce a *completely new user, I'd rather have them try a live CD anyway that just whips on a totally pre-selected set of applications after they've had a chance to boot it and see if it works with their hardware. So I'd push one of the live CDs rather than the DVD... Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 12:18:23 -0400, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
If I were trying to introduce a *completely new user, I'd rather have them try a live CD anyway that just whips on a totally pre-selected set of applications after they've had a chance to boot it and see if it works with their hardware. So I'd push one of the live CDs rather than the DVD...
Makes sense to me. Logically, by the time a user gets to an installation, they should have an idea if the distro will install for them and which desktop they want. That perhaps means that a default choice doesn't make sense - since they'll have made their choice during their evaluation with the LiveCD, either the default selection will be what they want or it won't be. Or I suppose one could look at it that a default choice makes no difference (rather than "doesn't make sense") as long as a choice is presented. It's not about saving time (assume KDE is preselected as a default, hitting "Next" takes .1 seconds; for GNOME users selecting the GNOME option and hitting "Next" takes .25 seconds. Big deal). it's about politics. So, from my point of view, go ahead, make KDE the default selection if it'll make the KDE users feel loved. If the KDE "camp" will commit to not pushing to remove the option for GNOME (or lower its prominence in the selection screen by moving it to "other" or doing anything other than presenting it alongside the KDE options - heck, go ahead and list KDE first if it's that important to them) down the road, then fine. As an individual GNOME user, give me the option and support it equally and I'm a happy camper. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Jim Henderson<hendersj@gmail.com> wrote:
If the KDE "camp" will commit to not pushing to remove the option for GNOME (or lower its prominence in the selection screen by moving it to "other" or doing anything other than presenting it alongside the KDE options - heck, go ahead and list KDE first if it's that important to them) down the road, then fine. As an individual GNOME user, give me the option and support it equally and I'm a happy camper.
How do other GNOME users / contributors feel about this? KDE folks? Xfce, twm, WindowMaker users? Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 8/3/2009 at 10:34 AM, "Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier" <jzb@zonker.net> wrote: How do other GNOME users / contributors feel about this?
To me if they are an experienced user they will already have made their choice as to whether they want gnome or kde. If they are a new user, why not show them a screen shot when they choose gnome or kde so they have a rough idea of what they are going to receive. I think this would do more for saying what is truly wanted rather than one or the other being listed first. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Joe Harmon<jharmon@novell.com> wrote:
To me if they are an experienced user they will already have made their choice as to whether they want gnome or kde. If they are a new user, why not show them a screen shot when they choose gnome or kde so they have a rough idea of what they are going to receive. I think this would do more for saying what is truly wanted rather than one or the other being listed first.
This has been suggested and rejected. It's hard from a screenshot or two for the user to truly know what they're getting into with either desktop. You could make a "hey, this looks nifty/niftier" decision, but a screenshot doesn't really tell you a whole lot. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier<jzb@zonker.net> wrote:
This has been suggested and rejected.
It's hard from a screenshot or two for the user to truly know what they're getting into with either desktop. You could make a "hey, this looks nifty/niftier" decision, but a screenshot doesn't really tell you a whole lot.
hear, hear! if a user can't be expected to make a choice (even to DL & try-out a LiveCD, as zonker suggested ...), about a desktop env, what does _anyone_ think is going to happen to that user's "experience" of _either_ DE when they come across an issue like "Okular insists on printing only to A4" issue? Dive into *bug reports*? this is like a bunch of politicians trying to legislate individual's responsibilities & choices. i'm simply astonished that Googling &/or directly visiting the KDE & Gnome sites seems such an unreasonable expectation of a user. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag, 3. August 2009 19:18:21 schrieb PGNet Dev:
i'm simply astonished that Googling &/or directly visiting the KDE & Gnome sites seems such an unreasonable expectation of a user.
Do we really need to tell everybody stepping through the door to go back out and read the sign about how to enter properly? And KDE or GNOME would result in a pretty big sign... We should focus on inviting the user to discover his choices and reminding long term users about them sure can't hurt either. Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2009/8/3 Karsten König <remur@gmx.net>:
Am Montag, 3. August 2009 19:18:21 schrieb PGNet Dev:
i'm simply astonished that Googling &/or directly visiting the KDE & Gnome sites seems such an unreasonable expectation of a user.
Do we really need to tell everybody stepping through the door to go back out and read the sign about how to enter properly? And KDE or GNOME would result in a pretty big sign...
We should focus on inviting the user to discover his choices and reminding long term users about them sure can't hurt either.
and how might they "discover" their choices? by preselcting a given radio box? by changing the order of presentation? by adding a couple of screenshots? do you really believe that that can & should be accomplished in the _installer_? if it's such a big issue, put a link/discussion/screenshot/whatever prominently "inviting a user to discover his choices" at the opensuse website where they likely got the installer DVD in the first place ... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag, 3. August 2009 19:43:27 schrieb PGNet Dev:
2009/8/3 Karsten König <remur@gmx.net>:
Am Montag, 3. August 2009 19:18:21 schrieb PGNet Dev:
i'm simply astonished that Googling &/or directly visiting the KDE & Gnome sites seems such an unreasonable expectation of a user.
Do we really need to tell everybody stepping through the door to go back out and read the sign about how to enter properly? And KDE or GNOME would result in a pretty big sign...
We should focus on inviting the user to discover his choices and reminding long term users about them sure can't hurt either.
and how might they "discover" their choices? by preselcting a given radio box? by changing the order of presentation? by adding a couple of screenshots?
The installer is no place to discover features, it's there to get the installing job done, and look good doing so.
do you really believe that that can & should be accomplished in the _installer_?
No, that's what others and me have been saying already, if the user can't decide for now we do for him, like it is done everywhere else. Btw, KMail offers a filter bar, you can filter for names etc so to see what their position on this is and not just make them repeat everything...
if it's such a big issue, put a link/discussion/screenshot/whatever prominently "inviting a user to discover his choices" at the opensuse website where they likely got the installer DVD in the first place ...
That sounds like a good idea, maybe redirect people after starting the download to an "Introduction to opensuse and it's features" page? A "discover your choices" page blinking up on first start? I always close the current one right away, but I suppose people that want to "check out Linux" won't. Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 8/3/2009 at 11:43 AM, PGNet Dev <pgnet.dev+osproj@gmail.com> wrote: and how might they "discover" their choices? by preselcting a given radio box? by changing the order of presentation? by adding a couple of screenshots?
And how are they discovering that choice right now by just selecting the radio button? I am not saying it is a good choice, it was just an idea. But it is more than what they have right now. Maybe we install both and leave the choice to when the desktop is first launched and have it change on the fly. I don't know, just some more thoughts. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 3 Aug 2009, Joe Harmon wrote:
On 8/3/2009 at 11:43 AM, PGNet Dev <pgnet.dev+osproj@gmail.com> wrote: and how might they "discover" their choices? by preselcting a given radio box? by changing the order of presentation? by adding a couple of screenshots?
And how are they discovering that choice right now by just selecting the radio button? I am not saying it is a good choice, it was just an idea. But it is more than what they have right now. Maybe we install both and leave the choice to when the desktop is first launched and have it change on the fly. I don't know, just some more thoughts.
Right now I do choose to install both for new users that have never seen or used linux. I find that when I make a choice for them. it always seems to have been the wrong one. For example I told them to try both, but because I logged in in KDE they never tried GNOME. They went back to windows till some only installed GNOME. They really like GNOME. The ones where I have never logged in tend to try them both and make a choice. New to linux users rearlly are different. Especially if they fall in what I call the dumb windows group. That is they let someone else dictate the look and feel. They really do not understand that a desktop can be changed. Getting them to use Firefox or OpenOffice on windows was a real pain. So the more I think about these new users, preselecting both so they are able to just click "Next" seems to be a good idea. Everyone else can/may choose what they like. Deselecting. Right now it is a real pain to try and talk a user over the phone to install both. These new users really are in a different space and really need to try both. Be it by a LiveCD or DVD install with both. These people really need to try both/all the desktops to find what meest there needs. I know some even prefer XFCE. Also, I think change the text on the screen to emaphsize, Choice really is a must. This then really eliminates the which DE is the default. Leaving it to the user to select and try where the choice really should be. Where they are able to try and see which method/DE suites them. -- Boyd Gerber <gerberb@zenez.com> 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
We don't provide the user with enough information to make a rational choice, so the choice is random (based on name, appearance of desktop, sequence in the list, etc.)
This is a fair point -- if someone is coming in *completely new.
The question is, how many users are coming in *completely new?
Anybody who's used Linux before will have a desktop they're familiar with or like, so the default selection is not an issue - they will choose what they want. The only people for whom it makes a difference are those with no previous experience of Linux or the sensitive souls who feel slighted if their preference isn't pre-selected. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag 03 August 2009 schrieb Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier:
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 12:08 PM,
Administrator<admin@different-perspectives.com> wrote:
We don't provide the user with enough information to make a rational choice, so the choice is random (based on name, appearance of desktop, sequence in the list, etc.)
This is a fair point -- if someone is coming in *completely new.
The question is, how many users are coming in *completely new?
If you ask this question, I have to ask: how many do you want to come? Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 03 August 2009 17:27:51 Jim Henderson wrote:
Fair point. OK, so what's wrong with forcing the user to make a decision? Why is there an aversion to making the user make the determination for themselves?
If you talk to Ubuntu users, one of the key points of their success was the focus on a very easy installation without decision making in the process. From a newbie point of view, choosing a desktop environment is an obstacle. They usually sit in front of their only computer, booted from the DVD and now they have no idea what KDE or Gnome are, nor do they know anything about the differences. And they don't have a computer available to search the internet. With Ubuntu's strong focus on Gnome, we see a certain type of users in the forums who made the switch to openSUSE because they want to try KDE (apparently Ubuntu's KDE integration still sucks). I don't know if this means we should set KDE as a default. But IMHO setting a default has its merits for a certain type of user. The advanced user definitely needs a choice. What if the automated install (not sure what it is called, the option where you don't have to configure much; I never use it <G>) would default to KDE, whereas the detailed installation has all the choices? Uwe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Andreas Jaeger a écrit :
Can we find a better solution than we currently have without giving out this message? Or is this no great alternative?
Yes, we should find one. The real question is : what are the real difference between kde, gnome and xfce (and server or minimal install). If we could summarize this, we could add a sentence in front of the choice and let the user decide. However, I think this is easy... but for kde/gnome (for me). Let's try: * KDE: the richer desktop, most loaded with options and wigdgets, preferably used on high end computers, more Windows 7 like. * Gnome: rich desktop, many options, great look, but lighter than Kde and so able to run on less powerfull computers. Still very Windows like and comfortable * xfce: very pretty desktop aimed to less powerfull, low RAM, computers, gorgious on the past years computers * Server: If you don't know what it is you don't need it. Perfect for http, ftp, smtp headless servers * minimal: the fastest way to install openSUSE and see later what of the 4 first choices fits better your needs to be edited at will :-)) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 of July 2009, jdd (kim2) wrote:
Andreas Jaeger a écrit :
Can we find a better solution than we currently have without giving out this message? Or is this no great alternative?
Yes, we should find one.
The real question is : what are the real difference between kde, gnome and xfce (and server or minimal install). If we could summarize this, we could add a sentence in front of the choice and let the user decide.
However, I think this is easy...
I'm afraid it is not. Let's see.
but for kde/gnome (for me). Let's try:
* KDE: the richer desktop, most loaded with options and wigdgets, preferably used on high end computers, more Windows 7 like.
* Gnome: rich desktop, many options, great look, but lighter than Kde and so able to run on less powerfull computers. Still very Windows like and comfortable
This doesn't really tell much in practice. Either the user knows the difference and then this isn't useful, or the user doesn't know, and then this is not something to decide based on information in one installation page. If they user doesn't know, all they really want to know is usually only "so which one should I use?", and there the easier way is to preselect something.
* xfce: very pretty desktop aimed to less powerfull, low RAM, computers, gorgious on the past years computers
This doesn't tell the user that only a small minority of openSUSE users know Xfce and the consequences (not many people being able to help with problems, etc.). It just supports what I wrote above. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 084 672 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 July 2009 17:32:39 Lubos Lunak wrote:
This doesn't really tell much in practice. Either the user knows the difference and then this isn't useful, or the user doesn't know, and then this is not something to decide based on information in one installation page. If they user doesn't know, all they really want to know is usually only "so which one should I use?", and there the easier way is to preselect something.
For a little light at the end of a long Friday afternoon: I've always been in favour of a quack psychological test of the sort favoured by Facebook apps. Give it about 20 questions that laterally establish whether the user likes progress, conservatism, minimalism or what then show the resulting desktop choice on 75% of the screen with the other options clustered around it. But I could never be bothered to learn enough YCP to hack the installer in time for April 1. Maybe next year. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Fredag den 31. juli 2009 17:21:39 skrev jdd (kim2):
Andreas Jaeger a écrit :
Can we find a better solution than we currently have without giving out this message? Or is this no great alternative?
Yes, we should find one.
The real question is : what are the real difference between kde, gnome and xfce (and server or minimal install). If we could summarize this, we could add a sentence in front of the choice and let the user decide.
However, I think this is easy... but for kde/gnome (for me). Let's try:
* KDE: the richer desktop, most loaded with options and wigdgets, preferably used on high end computers, more Windows 7 like.
* Gnome: rich desktop, many options, great look, but lighter than Kde and so able to run on less powerfull computers. Still very Windows like and comfortable
It can't be done. You already made some highly controversial statements comparing KDE to MS Windows and claiming GNOME is (significantly) more light weight than KDE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-07-31 at 17:37 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
* Gnome: rich desktop, many options, great look, but lighter than Kde and so able to run on less powerfull computers. Still very Windows like and comfortable
It can't be done.
You already made some highly controversial statements comparing KDE to MS Windows and claiming GNOME is (significantly) more light weight than KDE.
It is a fact that gnome is lighter. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpzfs0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WTCACdEE6joOXFLc+kIDFBiXaR4FsE BDgAoJJVe3Q7LF3GwMhHIrjCaerlYZpT =ohl8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
You already made some highly controversial statements comparing KDE to MS Windows and claiming GNOME is (significantly) more light weight than KDE.
It is a fact that gnome is lighter.
I don't mind what is different between Gnome and Kde, but I think there is more difference than look and feel, so may be to be not controversial Gnome users should define they desktop and kde users they one? I only ask for something helping the users choice jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-08-01 at 08:28 +0200, jdd (kim2) wrote:
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
You already made some highly controversial statements comparing KDE to MS Windows and claiming GNOME is (significantly) more light weight than KDE.
It is a fact that gnome is lighter.
I don't mind what is different between Gnome and Kde, but I think there is more difference than look and feel, so may be to be not controversial Gnome users should define they desktop and kde users they one? I only ask for something helping the users choice
Well, obviously KDE has more features, gives more options to the user. Gnome is simpler, customization is sometimes impossible, which probably means less code. KDE is done in C++, Gnome in C; the former has distinct advantages for large, complex projects, or so I'm told. Each attract users with different mindsets. A programmer may choose looking at the internals, a user perhaps just at the externals. The only way to choose is test both: I did as a newby, that was not a problem to me. In fact, tried all of them, about 10 years ago. To me, the wording should encourage testing of all the environments. The installation could even put a 10 question quiz to help the choice :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp0DYoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XGtgCgkgRsaCfBAEOGRNFUp0C+a2GI D2sAnim4oYkzlsqpUHgefJ9Jkk0Xpfv5 =NI5i -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
To me, the wording should encourage testing of all the environments.
we could have a option "install both" to try
The installation could even put a 10 question quiz to help the choice :-)
quiz a surprisingly difficult to build (I had to do) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-08-01 at 11:42 +0200, jdd (kim2) wrote:
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
To me, the wording should encourage testing of all the environments.
we could have a option "install both" to try
Yes, but why only both? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEUEARECAAYFAkp0EZUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UVxACXeZ/Jv2QfcOjTATa1CGcpQXHk KgCeL4UyKh6NZc3U2VNA82ZbN+uj2qM= =e5xU -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
we could have a option "install both" to try
Yes, but why only both?
because I think xfce or minimal have a clear goal, when Kde/Gnome can challenge each other, have these two makes it easy to test them and most first commer can't know it's possible to have both (in fact, usually, there is always at least fvwm :-) *i* have at present fvwm, gnome, kde 3 / 4, metacity (??), xfce and even mythtv (??) any here knows it's possible, but many new people don't jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-08-01 at 12:38 +0200, jdd (kim2) wrote:
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
we could have a option "install both" to try
Yes, but why only both?
because I think xfce or minimal have a clear goal, when Kde/Gnome can challenge each other, have these two makes it easy to test them and most first commer can't know it's possible to have both (in fact, usually, there is always at least fvwm :-)
There is a proposal [306977] to “Replace option buttons in current desktop selection dialogs by checkboxes allowing to select more than one desktop.”
*i* have at present fvwm, gnome, kde 3 / 4, metacity (??), xfce and even mythtv (??)
mythtv? I haven't tried that one.
any here knows it's possible, but many new people don't
True. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp0I2QACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WvRQCfRbGkF6UICe34t6TGadHRD+4X cvIAn3aFPcLAk12xbsl3i3ZOYvP8c9Kr =8eer -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
You already made some highly controversial statements comparing KDE to MS Windows and claiming GNOME is (significantly) more light weight than KDE.
It is a fact that gnome is lighter. No, it isn't. GNOME has a simpler and more consistent UI than KDE, but both XFCE and KDE are faster and lighter on resources. I ran KDE4 on a 400Mhz PPC machine where it was slow, but worked, while GNOME swapped
Hello, 2009-08-01 01:31 keltezéssel, Carlos E. R. írta: the machine to death. Bye, CzP -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-08-01 at 11:20 +0200, Peter Czanik wrote:
You already made some highly controversial statements comparing KDE to MS Windows and claiming GNOME is (significantly) more light weight than KDE.
It is a fact that gnome is lighter. No, it isn't. GNOME has a simpler and more consistent UI than KDE, but both XFCE and KDE are faster and lighter on resources. I ran KDE4 on a 400Mhz PPC machine where it was slow, but worked, while GNOME swapped
2009-08-01 01:31 keltezéssel, Carlos E. R. írta: the machine to death.
My machines are slow. I use both. My previous machine had only 32 MiB of ram, and there KDE was noticiably slower, it swapped way more. That was the main reason I started to use Gnome 10 years ago, even though KDE was more complete and had a better finish in SuSE. The KDE team has done a lot recently to improve this; a good part through optimization of C++ in the compiler. Now KDE is nimbler in resources than it was, but it still feels a bit heavier, at least on modest machines like mine. Some other time I'll time KDE and Gnome starting. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp0C7EACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XqbgCgjTrl+J0dwET1XcK11cndq0lX b7kAn06NJFfHJnlH+tMPRxyVJhTaVpo2 =0C98 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
through optimization of C++ in the compiler. Now KDE is nimbler in resources than it was, but it still feels a bit heavier, at least on modest machines like mine.
I could try it on a 6 years old machine, PIII 1000/384Mo ram and it was surprisingly fast (kde 3.5) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-08-01 at 11:40 +0200, jdd (kim2) wrote:
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
through optimization of C++ in the compiler. Now KDE is nimbler in resources than it was, but it still feels a bit heavier, at least on modest machines like mine.
I could try it on a 6 years old machine, PIII 1000/384Mo ram and it was surprisingly fast (kde 3.5)
I have tried a test: startx kde -- :1 as a new user, but it crashes (gnome too), it complains about "bad command line option xterm". I intended to time both environments booting, but I can't. I'd have to log out this user instead, and I can't do at the moment. Busy. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp0EB8ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WAFgCeIRaUtvfUZ0UFxNHTTVxUVN1F NxQAoJMe9FKz5QymOhvCK4DTtrG42mE2 =IHCI -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Saturday 01 of August 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
My machines are slow. I use both. My previous machine had only 32 MiB of ram, and there KDE was noticiably slower, it swapped way more. That was the main reason I started to use Gnome 10 years ago, even though KDE was more complete and had a better finish in SuSE.
The KDE team has done a lot recently to improve this; a good part through optimization of C++ in the compiler. Now KDE is nimbler in resources than it was, but it still feels a bit heavier, at least on modest machines like mine.
Some other time I'll time KDE and Gnome starting.
Ok. But you can please keep your performance bikeshedding out of this discussion? It is not important here that sometimes KDE performs better and sometimes GNOME (which is actually the fact, not the persisting myth). -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-08-01 at 11:43 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
Ok. But you can please keep your performance bikeshedding out of this discussion? It is not important here that sometimes KDE performs better and sometimes GNOME (which is actually the fact, not the persisting myth).
Alright, but it wasn't me who started that part here. Anyway, it has been stated as a reason for pushing KDE as the default that KDE is better... and I object to that argument, too. I would object to saying that Gnome is better, of course. Too. Will all those people refrain from using that type of argument in this discussion, please? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp0EU0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VUxgCdGhIE5NG0ZMm0JnXNMUYleshm qP4AnA9+dzZT8KT/8iz+PCe6/GBipNPt =Pppu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
I think we need to look at reasonable Hardware Expectations, let alone the system requirement, printed in text in both the user guide and commercial box containing a paper user guide and software. With only 32Mg of RAM you would be luck to run Windows 2000, you wont be able to install and run Windows XP, yet you think that both desktops should run on 32Mb of RAM. Software that has been released post the year 1997, cannot be expected to perform and be backwardly compatible. With only 32Mb of RAM, and I take it no RAM on Video Card, just about any O/S is going to trash its VM at the expense of the application/OS calls for disk IO's Time to get at a bare minimum of 2GIG of RAM on a Bare Minimum of a new socketed Intel P4 3.2 HT or better still start at current technology with a X_64 Quad Core 2.8 with 8 GIG and 1GIG Video PCIe. Wanting a PC with only 32Mb of RAM to function and be usable with ANY O/S is just not going to happen - I am sorry. Scott Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On Saturday, 2009-08-01 at 11:20 +0200, Peter Czanik wrote:
You already made some highly controversial statements comparing KDE to MS Windows and claiming GNOME is (significantly) more light weight than KDE.
It is a fact that gnome is lighter. No, it isn't. GNOME has a simpler and more consistent UI than KDE, but both XFCE and KDE are faster and lighter on resources. I ran KDE4 on a 400Mhz PPC machine where it was slow, but worked, while GNOME swapped
2009-08-01 01:31 keltezéssel, Carlos E. R. Ãrta: the machine to death.
My machines are slow. I use both. My previous machine had only 32 MiB of ram, and there KDE was noticiably slower, it swapped way more. That was the main reason I started to use Gnome 10 years ago, even though KDE was more complete and had a better finish in SuSE.
The KDE team has done a lot recently to improve this; a good part through optimization of C++ in the compiler. Now KDE is nimbler in resources than it was, but it still feels a bit heavier, at least on modest machines like mine.
Some other time I'll time KDE and Gnome starting.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux)
iEYEARECAAYFAkp0C7EACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XqbgCgjTrl+J0dwET1XcK11cndq0lX b7kAn06NJFfHJnlH+tMPRxyVJhTaVpo2 =0C98 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 21:00 +1000, alpha096@virginbroadband.com.au wrote:
With only 32Mg of RAM you would be luck to run Windows 2000, you wont be
Please stop talking about windows.
Wanting a PC with only 32Mb of RAM to function and be usable with ANY O/S is just not going to happen - I am sorry.
You missed the point of what I said. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp1c6sACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UarACfRjID2EjoOaA9RpMR5rb0Mq5g 5foAn3oEZr5WqXmNI5HW4MscuFgRYz85 =5WJS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
No I did not miss the point - I will slow the conversation down a little for you. You were discussing which desktop was more light weight, Gnome or KDE. As previously mentioned your VM is going to get thrashed, so any testing of either desktop will solely rely on your HDD IO's Speed. The speed will invariably decline with more use of the PC as the Kernel will try to keep as much of past application loaded in cache. In your case the cashed files will probably sit on VM. So with very limited resources the slow-down of either desktop, once loaded will increase exponentially after you open or use any application until its runs out of VM and all cache buffers will get flushed. There is no value in timing either desktop in an environment that is dependant on VM as you cannot make any real comparisons. There are far too many variables and you are not starting with a level playing or test field in the first instance. I mentioned MS because I don't know what O/S your were running prior to Suse, but what ever your were running probably would have been a very ancient version of any MS offering. Yet you expect a brand new version of Suse to run and do what cannot be done with other O/S. It appears that rather that updating very old technology you are searching for an O/S that will buy you more time for your hardware. This is not going to happen for you. Rather than discussing different desktops I think you need to seriously thing about how obsolete your technology is. and you want the impossible from either desktop. Measuring start-up is irrelevant, and any other time/performance indications on each desktop will depend on the speed of you HDD IO's Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 21:00 +1000, alpha096@virginbroadband.com.au wrote:
With only 32Mg of RAM you would be luck to run Windows 2000, you wont be
Please stop talking about windows.
Wanting a PC with only 32Mb of RAM to function and be usable with ANY O/S is just not going to happen - I am sorry.
You missed the point of what I said.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux)
iEYEARECAAYFAkp1c6sACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UarACfRjID2EjoOaA9RpMR5rb0Mq5g 5foAn3oEZr5WqXmNI5HW4MscuFgRYz85 =5WJS -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
I'm reading a lot here about making a political decision - but is not the withholding of a default Desktop also a political Decision.
From my experience in Opensuse Support I can say - that not choosing of a Default Desktop is really confusing for new users (especially older people)
What most people in my experience want is install and forget - in my Opinion not the ideal choice. But i guess first we need the Question of what we really want - do we want a Product (even a community created one) or do we want a community in the first Place which makes a great product. The Best Product made by the community Choice would be a default Desktop in my opinion and that means not only to put a preselection in a radio button. A possibility for example would be to default to a Desktop in the Auto configuration and make it more prominent to choose the easy setup (with default desktop choice) or the one where you can choose. If you do not choose the auto configuration option you would get all Desktops to choose from (incl. XFCE, minimal etc. ) If you put the Focus on growing the Community to the maximum , you would withhold the Default Choice (and avoid to choose sides) . This would make it a bit more complicated for the inexperienced user, especially if they choose the wrong Desktop for them (and this has happened). If you force the inexperienced user to make a decision - this requires people to know what decision to take and if they don't it leads to frustration. The experienced user should know how to get their choice. But I'm against forcing the decision for 11.2 in the next few weeks - i think it is to late for that and as the feeling of being a little bit sneaky. Lets have an open discussion for 11.3 . A decision taken would also not mean that it is forever ... Circumstances change and in open Community there should always be a way to revisit a decision taken. And to formulate my personal experience here i would favor the first approach - make a strong default choice - and my personal choice for that would be KDE. Why? The majority of people I know and worked with and have supported - liked KDE better. They were mostly Europeans though and in my experience the preference for KDE/Gnome has a strong regional Touch , which may be originating from the start of the Projects . I personally like working with KDE better then working with GNOME. The Auto configuration Feature in the Installation Work flow is well received by inexperience User (in my experience) - so the break for the Desktop choice comes in an unexpected place and is the only stage where it breaks for a choice (other then the install confirmation) The experienced users have their opinion anyway and they know how to get what they want. One of the Main points though is that the current Linux Ecosystem is strongly tilted to Gnome - most major distributions are defaulting to Gnome and for that reason GNOME wins the "War" (scarecrows intentional) for the inexperienced user. This reflects in the Enterprise distributions as well. A default Choice for KDE would in my Opinion level the playing field somewhat and could pave the way to a healthier climate all over Linux. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag 31 Juli 2009 schrieb Stefan Kunze:
But I'm against forcing the decision for 11.2 in the next few weeks - i think it is to late for that and as the feeling of being a little bit sneaky. Lets have an open discussion for 11.3 . A decision taken would also not mean that it is forever ... Circumstances change and in open Community there should always be a way to revisit a decision taken.
I'm not going to argue in this thread - and I did vote neutral on the feature :) But let me say: this change is "just" about a radio button and if I'm reading right this is mainly on how to communicate the change _if_ we do it. And we still have 3 _months_ to release - I think it's enough time to discuss. Preselecting a radio button isn't that much of a problem technically and even if we change the wording on that page, we can still change the translation pretty late in the cycle. So don't limit the 11.2 discussion, we will just earn frustration if we cancel that discussion with a "we just have 3 months left" argument. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 July 2009 16:44:37 Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Friday 31 July 2009 15:52:58 Will Stephenson wrote:
On Friday 31 July 2009 15:27:15 Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Friday 31 July 2009 15:23:17 Lubos Lunak wrote:
[...]
But openSUSE is also a great GNOME distribution - how can we point out properly that openSUSE has both?
I'm sure we now do a better job of promoting that than Canonical do for Kubuntu and that would not change.
For me this feature is about 2 things -
First, the project taking the obvious step to recognise what the majority of our users want and give them that. This would go a long way to undoing the 'Novell is evil' smell that we can't shake off.
Secondly, giving openSUSE a very strong distinctive feature as a first- rank distribution that says 'We offer KDE by default because it's what our users want' compared to other first-rank distributions. Kubuntu and Pardus aren't in that category and our current "The distro that offers great KDE and GNOME desktops" position isn't perceived by many people outside our close circle of contributors - they take Ubuntu because it's highly successful, or Kubuntu because it's related to Ubuntu.
This should not weaken our support for GNOME, XFCE or anything else. Look at Kubuntu, which has become a successful project in its own right despite initial hostility and neglect from Canonical, or Fedora-kde, which has a contributor community that is of the about the same size as the openSUSE-kde community.
To me a switch to KDE default looks like putting GNOME one row to the back. Can we find a better solution than we currently have without giving out this message? Or is this no great alternative?
I think we can make the message "we recognise and respond to what our users want". We're not hiding GNOME as is the case with KDE on SLED nor are we reducing Novell's investment in it. I'm not a marketeer, but I am married to one. And I've heard from a couple of places that good marketing orthodoxy is to focus on your biggest market and give them what they want, and look for untapped markets.
* We say right now "As desktop selection is a matter of taste, we do not give a recommendation.". What about "Desktop selection is a matter of taste - and GNOME and KDE are both first-class desktops in openSUSE. Right now two thirds of our users prefer KDE and a quarter GNOME"?
Sorry AJ, but that's a wishy-washy way of preselecting a radiobutton that would not get openSUSE the benefits already presented elsewhere. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Will Stephenson<wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
I think we can make the message "we recognise and respond to what our users want". We're not hiding GNOME as is the case with KDE on SLED nor are we reducing Novell's investment in it.
Our users want us to check the radio button, or our users want us to make a "marketing statement" that KDE is the preferred desktop? Or, is it beyond that? Our users want us to focus more on KDE? That's the sentiment that I seem to be getting so far that underlies the feature. Not trying to put words in your mouth here - just saying that what I see in the discussions on openFATE, on my blog, and in this list, the real "ask" is this: "SUSE used to be KDE-centric. I miss this. I want the old SUSE. I want a distro that is KDE-centric that I can use to promote KDE." Nothing wrong with that -- but I don't think this feature gets us there. It may be what many people think is the first step on the road to getting there, but it doesn't get us there, and I don't see a plan to get us there beyond this first step. I see a lot of speculation that *if* we make this choice, we *may* gain users and contributors on the KDE side and we *probably will lose users and contributors for GNOME and will have trouble attracting new GNOME users and contributors.
I'm not a marketeer, but I am married to one. And I've heard from a couple of places that good marketing orthodoxy is to focus on your biggest market and give them what they want, and look for untapped markets.
Really this gets back to the thing that comes up over and over again -- we haven't decided what markets we want to focus on. So we have two different things there: * The KDE community, some of which already prefer openSUSE, some don't -- but I think we can all agree that this is smaller than the second choice: * The untapped market -- i.e., Windows and Mac users. If openSUSE had *all of the existing KDE users in the world, we still wouldn't approach 2% of the untapped market. Choosing this feature alone won't do a lot to address the untapped market. There are ways we could address the "untapped market" with KDE, but I haven't seen that, so far I just see: * Make KDE the default * Stuff happens * World domination, yay! (Yes, I'm being a bit sarcastic. It's Friday and it's been a long week. But truly - I think we're speculating heavily here.) Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-07-31 at 11:43 -0400, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Will Stephenson<> wrote:
I think we can make the message "we recognise and respond to what our users want". We're not hiding GNOME as is the case with KDE on SLED nor are we reducing Novell's investment in it.
Our users want us to check the radio button, or our users want us to make a "marketing statement" that KDE is the preferred desktop?
Or, is it beyond that? Our users want us to focus more on KDE? That's the sentiment that I seem to be getting so far that underlies the feature. Not trying to put words in your mouth here - just saying that what I see in the discussions on openFATE, on my blog, and in this list, the real "ask" is this:
My feeling is that KDE users and devs (@novell) want to push KDE as the primary desktop, but that they will not stop there. Next they will want resources dedicated to Gnome development and integration diminished, till finally Gnome is just a bare vestigial desktop, almost useless. That is what to me means this political statement. :-/ Yes, I have read testimonies that show almost hatred of gnome and its users... :-/ And I will loose a distro in which I can use a fine Gnome desktop with magnificent KDE apps on top, and will have to start looking for somewhere else to go, if it exists. What other distro can boast of such good integration between different desktops, as we have now in oS? Do you want to lose that? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpzhjIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VrBgCfZVRJ42YJxnMwOhJ/M82FSnk6 1GYAnRtJyxTl+FudxED3FCRBL/Ue31XI =1nhB -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Saturday 01 August 2009 02:02:56 Carlos E. R wrote:
My feeling is that KDE users and devs (@novell) want to push KDE as the primary desktop, but that they will not stop there. Next they will want resources dedicated to Gnome development and integration diminished, till finally Gnome is just a bare vestigial desktop, almost useless.
That is what to me means this political statement. :-/
Yes, I have read testimonies that show almost hatred of gnome and its users... :-/
You're scaremongering and trying to polarize the debate. Stop it. Nobody involved in this discussion has made such claims.
What other distro can boast of such good integration between different desktops, as we have now in oS? Do you want to lose that?
Without meaning to do ourselves down, what integration are you talking about? Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
I love the Gnome Desktop because its so stable. I cant wait for them to get rid of the Blocky type feeling it has with its multiple menus that go round in circles. I love the cd/dvd transparency for the user - something KDE has yet to do - BUT have you ever tried to open a BUG or an Enhancement using Bugzilla and the classification of Gnome. Until you have tried to log an enhancement or bug against gnome and experienced the replies; I'd keep a very quiet mindset about political statements. Mind you, have you every tried to open an enhancement against YasT and experienced the reply? Scott Will Stephenson wrote:
On Saturday 01 August 2009 02:02:56 Carlos E. R wrote:
My feeling is that KDE users and devs (@novell) want to push KDE as the primary desktop, but that they will not stop there. Next they will want resources dedicated to Gnome development and integration diminished, till finally Gnome is just a bare vestigial desktop, almost useless.
That is what to me means this political statement. :-/
Yes, I have read testimonies that show almost hatred of gnome and its users... :-/
You're scaremongering and trying to polarize the debate. Stop it. Nobody involved in this discussion has made such claims.
What other distro can boast of such good integration between different desktops, as we have now in oS? Do you want to lose that?
Without meaning to do ourselves down, what integration are you talking about?
Will
This issue is highly politicised by many messages through this debate - You yourself quoted a political statement from a high thread. O.K lets call this a highly passionate issue for most. The transparency issues with CD/DVD media I am taking about is having a DVD media in the drive, opening Dolphin or any other file manager and copy from HDD to DVD/CD media via a file manager. 'Select, copy, paste.' Its a simple issues that gnome actually handles very well but KDE is light years away from having such simplicity. As far as usability goes, we sacrifice it time and time again with technical perspectives. A simple example is the Yast and the Cancel and Abort buttons. Once a user executes say a network service, and for some reason it cannot complete the task, the Cancel and Abort buttons have no effect - you may as well blank them out after you execute a change to any service and it either cannot or is taking forever to complete. See https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=489077 where all parties were content to waste huge amounts of time in argument. Why the Cancel or Abort buttons cannot be changed to kill the PIN, in the same way ANY KDE4 Application can do, if you close it from a right click on the Task Manager Tray. I opened an Enhancement Bug in Gnome for a "Super User/Root" File Manager on the menu system - It was sent back as Invalid. I open an Enhancement request to permit a users right click on the desktop to add either an application or object - It was sent back as invalid. Work that one out? With the Introduction of 4.x KDE developers removed functionality from the user. This is the hugest error in development that I have ever seen. Its Computer Science Year 1 lesson 2. You don't remove functional aspects of anything with there being a significant technical reason to do so and then its a hard push! These are all in Bugzilla... Yast and Gnome development are closed shops, and it does not take rocket science to see that with a simple search for enhancement or bugs raised since 10.3 We also have a situation that most all developers at Suse.de, don't even use the default KDE/Gnome desktops!!! and its very seldom each person does an install on their own PC with new versions. Try to get the developers to use the default desktop AND remove the command prompt and see how they go. This is exactly what the user experiences. It took me 4 years to give up a line editor, and another 3 to give up a non-GUI text Editor, another 6 years to convince me to use a GUI File Manager, and all up 8 years to give up a Terminal emulator in favour of a GUI fill-in the-box. Generation Y will NOT use anything but a GUI Interface, and History is punctuated with what the general user can cop with. Do you recall when Windows 95 came out! M.S committed huge resources and invested huge amounts of money to provide only 2 very small but hugely significant issues the world had. It provided a GUI Interface that did not require a user to set-up and edit 2 files on every PC. They also bastardised the limitations of memory managers and committed to use XMS memory as the ONLY way to address RAM above 1024 - EMS LIM4 was tossed away for eternity. Do you re-call NetWare 3.x to NetWare 4.x - My God, we had to create a GUI Interface just to Install the Server software and Maintain its Management. Everything about the server interface had to be object orientated on a GUI AND demanded a mouse be present! NetAdmins would never cope now, if we gave them NetWare 2.15 where we had to generate server.exe and disk drivers on the actual server, and if we game them 3.15 that made the quantum leap to an "Install" Module. Microsoft's First use of NTFS Advanced Server that gave the Netadmin a GUI to manage the Server had the world hooked and when NetWare 4.x came out with objects and NetWare 5.n came with a GUI/IP comms, it was far too late. The world was already hooked on the GUI of NTFS Server and never looked back! Personally, I would love to go back to command line entries in a millisecond, but I can be a dinosaur in today's environment. Within 3-5years Gen Y will soon be making decisions on software Industry buys and if we are there with a complete alternate better or equal offer - its bye bye birdy. Generation Y will NOT use a NON-GUI anything, and unless they have a mouse they cannot use the Interface. - Its very very very simple. Technical excellence behind the GUI, as long as it works, is completely wasted on a general user. Usability is King and Historically starkly evident. So we either rewrite history to suit ourselves or disappear off the earth. alpha096@virginbroadband.com.au wrote:
I love the Gnome Desktop because its so stable. I cant wait for them to get rid of the Blocky type feeling it has with its multiple menus that go round in circles. I love the cd/dvd transparency for the user - something KDE has yet to do - BUT have you ever tried to open a BUG or an Enhancement using Bugzilla and the classification of Gnome. Until you have tried to log an enhancement or bug against gnome and experienced the replies; I'd keep a very quiet mindset about political statements. Mind you, have you every tried to open an enhancement against YasT and experienced the reply? Scott
Will Stephenson wrote:
On Saturday 01 August 2009 02:02:56 Carlos E. R wrote:
My feeling is that KDE users and devs (@novell) want to push KDE as the primary desktop, but that they will not stop there. Next they will want resources dedicated to Gnome development and integration diminished, till finally Gnome is just a bare vestigial desktop, almost useless.
That is what to me means this political statement. :-/
Yes, I have read testimonies that show almost hatred of gnome and its users... :-/
You're scaremongering and trying to polarize the debate. Stop it. Nobody involved in this discussion has made such claims.
What other distro can boast of such good integration between different desktops, as we have now in oS? Do you want to lose that?
Without meaning to do ourselves down, what integration are you talking about?
Will
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-08-01 at 08:04 +0200, Will Stephenson wrote:
On Saturday 01 August 2009 02:02:56 Carlos E. R wrote:
My feeling is that KDE users and devs (@novell) want to push KDE as the primary desktop, but that they will not stop there. Next they will want resources dedicated to Gnome development and integration diminished, till finally Gnome is just a bare vestigial desktop, almost useless.
That is what to me means this political statement. :-/
Yes, I have read testimonies that show almost hatred of gnome and its users... :-/
You're scaremongering and trying to polarize the debate. Stop it. Nobody involved in this discussion has made such claims.
I'm sorry, but that is the message I'm getting from you guys. This is not the only place where opinions are getting printed, you know.
What other distro can boast of such good integration between different desktops, as we have now in oS? Do you want to lose that?
Without meaning to do ourselves down, what integration are you talking about?
Currently I use a gnome desktop with kde tools. I call that integration. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp0CbsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VfsgCggtYJC8pExgONEJxU/mCmL5Sh VhQAn0vgkkdzogBudHbxetgGIv21QG04 =EAc/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Sorry I stuffed up the thread...but will now correct my reply posting This issue is highly politicised by many messages through this debate - You yourself quoted a political statement from a high thread. O.K lets call this a highly passionate issue for most. The transparency issues with CD/DVD media I am taking about is having a DVD media in the drive, opening Dolphin or any other file manager and copy from HDD to DVD/CD media via a file manager. 'Select, copy, paste.' Its a simple issues that gnome actually handles very well but KDE is light years away from having such simplicity. As far as usability goes, we sacrifice it time and time again with technical perspectives. A simple example is the Yast and the Cancel and Abort buttons. Once a user executes say a network service, and for some reason it cannot complete the task, the Cancel and Abort buttons have no effect - you may as well blank them out after you execute a change to any service and it either cannot or is taking forever to complete. See https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=489077 where all parties were content to waste huge amounts of time in argument. Why the Cancel or Abort buttons cannot be changed to kill the PIN, in the same way ANY KDE4 Application can do, if you close it from a right click on the Task Manager Tray. I opened an Enhancement Bug in Gnome for a "Super User/Root" File Manager on the menu system - It was sent back as Invalid. I open an Enhancement request to permit a users right click on the desktop to add either an application or object - It was sent back as invalid. Work that one out? With the Introduction of 4.x KDE developers removed functionality from the user. This is the hugest error in development that I have ever seen. Its Computer Science Year 1 lesson 2. You don't remove functional aspects of anything with there being a significant technical reason to do so and then its a hard push! These are all in Bugzilla... Yast and Gnome development are closed shops, and it does not take rocket science to see that with a simple search for enhancement or bugs raised since 10.3 We also have a situation that most all developers at Suse.de, don't even use the default KDE/Gnome desktops!!! and its very seldom each person does an install on their own PC with new versions. Try to get the developers to use the default desktop AND remove the command prompt and see how they go. This is exactly what the user experiences. It took me 4 years to give up a line editor, and another 3 to give up a non-GUI text Editor, another 6 years to convince me to use a GUI File Manager, and all up 8 years to give up a Terminal emulator in favour of a GUI fill-in the-box. Generation Y will NOT use anything but a GUI Interface, and History is punctuated with what the general user can cop with. Do you recall when Windows 95 came out! M.S committed huge resources and invested huge amounts of money to provide only 2 very small but hugely significant issues the world had. It provided a GUI Interface that did not require a user to set-up and edit 2 files on every PC. They also bastardised the limitations of memory managers and committed to use XMS memory as the ONLY way to address RAM above 1024 - EMS LIM4 was tossed away for eternity. Do you re-call NetWare 3.x to NetWare 4.x - My God, we had to create a GUI Interface just to Install the Server software and Maintain its Management. Everything about the server interface had to be object orientated on a GUI AND demanded a mouse be present! NetAdmins would never cope now, if we gave them NetWare 2.15 where we had to generate server.exe and disk drivers on the actual server, and if we game them 3.15 that made the quantum leap to an "Install" Module. Microsoft's First use of NTFS Advanced Server that gave the Netadmin a GUI to manage the Server had the world hooked and when NetWare 4.x came out with objects and NetWare 5.n came with a GUI/IP comms, it was far too late. The world was already hooked on the GUI of NTFS Server and never looked back! Personally, I would love to go back to command line entries in a millisecond, but I can be a dinosaur in today's environment. Within 3-5years Gen Y will soon be making decisions on software Industry buys and if we are there with a complete alternate better or equal offer - its bye bye birdy. Generation Y will NOT use a NON-GUI anything, and unless they have a mouse they cannot use the Interface. - Its very very very simple. Technical excellence behind the GUI, as long as it works, is completely wasted on a general user. Usability is King and Historically starkly evident. So we either rewrite history to suit ourselves or disappear off the earth. Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On Saturday, 2009-08-01 at 08:04 +0200, Will Stephenson wrote:
On Saturday 01 August 2009 02:02:56 Carlos E. R wrote:
My feeling is that KDE users and devs (@novell) want to push KDE as the primary desktop, but that they will not stop there. Next they will want resources dedicated to Gnome development and integration diminished, till finally Gnome is just a bare vestigial desktop, almost useless.
That is what to me means this political statement. :-/
Yes, I have read testimonies that show almost hatred of gnome and its users... :-/
You're scaremongering and trying to polarize the debate. Stop it. Nobody involved in this discussion has made such claims.
I'm sorry, but that is the message I'm getting from you guys.
This is not the only place where opinions are getting printed, you know.
What other distro can boast of such good integration between different desktops, as we have now in oS? Do you want to lose that?
Without meaning to do ourselves down, what integration are you talking about?
Currently I use a gnome desktop with kde tools. I call that integration.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux)
iEYEARECAAYFAkp0CbsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VfsgCggtYJC8pExgONEJxU/mCmL5Sh VhQAn0vgkkdzogBudHbxetgGIv21QG04 =EAc/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
alpha096@virginbroadband.com.au a écrit :
Generation Y will NOT use anything but a GUI Interface,
very long mail, but sorry to say not convincing. First you drop Apple Mc Intosh interface importance, then everybody will use GUI when fiber links, 100 Mb symetrical will be for anybody, but this is not to be seen before at least 10 years. And this have nothing to do with defaulting to Kde. To go back to the subject, that is making install easier to newcommer, may be we could add an option "All default install" with *no* other questions. We just have to define such defaults: no user passwd, direct login, kde with windows like skin, sudo without pass for the first user... We could name it "install like Windows". But do we want to go so far? Do we want to support users wanting to do so? I doubt it jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Yes it was a long Post but very much about which desktop and more so why History cannot be ignored. Many say that the KDE should be the default and others Gnome and much discussion is politicised. Writing about software, especially within the framework of KDE OR Gnome is totally political in its expectations. Why did people only buy Microsoft products and just about all other vendors collapse in the late 80s-90s. Microsoft does not enjoy its position because of technical excellence, far from it, they got there because they built a desktop that was 100% usable. In essence we are motivated to choose either KDE or Gnome based on usability. I don't here anyone saying we must only present a KDE desktop because of its technical excellence. The thought of software winning popularity has nothing to do with technical Excellence, as if that was the case, we would not all be using MS. The argument raging on preference of desktop, KDE OR Gnome, is all about who feels one desktop is more usable than the other...or am I going too fast? We love things that we can use and understand the easiest, and a lot of that is feel and look stuff. We are highly motivated with a passionate leaning toward one or the other because of how we see each desktop behaves when we use it. We either love the way it works and behaves and looks or we hate it because it cannot do things almost everyone takes for granted. The point in History have shown how important look and feel and usability is. Back in the mid 90's people said, they hate DOS and wont use it the only use Windows. That single issue centred on usability wrote history for decades to come. When Windows 95 came out I recall one CEO of a very large company saying, "When I see staff at an Airport using Windows, then I'll put in through my entire business Interests" We either love KDE and want to make it the standard desktop or hate is because of the ease of use and understanding of the user. Is that what we are not discussing? This conflict is nothing more than another DOS v Windows fight, with slightly different players; but in essence we evoke the same passion with either KDE or Gnome. Gen Y is going to want to use the most easy to use or the most usable desktop and love it, because it presents ever task as being simple, easy and they can click on it.... I am sure you can see the parallels in the posting above now but perhaps I jumped or digressed without explanation, in the expectation the reader understood the linkage. jdd (kim2) wrote:
alpha096@virginbroadband.com.au a écrit :
Generation Y will NOT use anything but a GUI Interface,
very long mail, but sorry to say not convincing. First you drop Apple Mc Intosh interface importance, then everybody will use GUI when fiber links, 100 Mb symetrical will be for anybody, but this is not to be seen before at least 10 years.
And this have nothing to do with defaulting to Kde.
To go back to the subject, that is making install easier to newcommer, may be we could add an option "All default install" with *no* other questions.
We just have to define such defaults: no user passwd, direct login, kde with windows like skin, sudo without pass for the first user...
We could name it "install like Windows". But do we want to go so far? Do we want to support users wanting to do so?
I doubt it
jdd
I am very sorry Will, but the "we recognise and respond........." is in reality another motherhood statement, of which there are many examples in business. So when a user asks for the Cancel or Abort button to actually do just that in Yast we do it - Wrong! - Invalid/wontfix and when a user asks for the ability to add an icon/application/object to the Desktop in Gnome we do it - Wrong! - Invalid/wontfix Bugzilla is full of small common sense requests that are flagged wontfix or are yet to be marked but Yast and Gnome are both closed shops and a simple search will easily show that. The wish-lists we have are so big that no one can add another request due its length in FF. Above all, we all expect things to work, we want the NTFS Partition to have a mount point and be mounted after an install - Yes we have how many open bugs in Bugzilla. Sorry I am not being purely Negative, I just don't like motherhood statements in business unless they are achievable. Don't get ME wrong, I am just the messenger and most parts of our product are wonderful, but we are all very well educated users; for Mr and Mrs Average it just does not fly in many areas. Scott
I think we can make the message "we recognise and respond to what our users want". We're not hiding GNOME as is the case with KDE on SLED nor are we reducing Novell's investment in it.
I'm not a marketeer, but I am married to one. And I've heard from a couple of places that good marketing orthodoxy is to focus on your biggest market and give them what they want, and look for untapped markets.
Will
alpha096@virginbroadband.com.au a écrit :
I am very sorry Will, but the "we recognise and respond........." is in reality another motherhood statement,
could you, please, answer just under the sentence you answer to (as I do)? it makes reading the thread much easier, thanks.
Bugzilla is full of small common sense requests that are flagged wontfix or are yet to be marked
this i why feature have been created. Devs are simply too short in time to see all and the vote system of bugzilla is recent (or only recently made visible) I'm not a dev at all and report bugs from time to time, with reasonable success, including for yast so could we go back to the subject of this already very long thread? thanks again jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
The preference to type text above is mine as I think it more helpful. In regard to content of the posted comment, it was a reply to the threaded statement. Unless you have something that is both helpful, constructive, or relevant your post serves only to describe a teacher with a red pen jdd (kim2) wrote:
alpha096@virginbroadband.com.au a écrit :
I am very sorry Will, but the "we recognise and respond........." is in reality another motherhood statement,
could you, please, answer just under the sentence you answer to (as I do)? it makes reading the thread much easier, thanks.
Bugzilla is full of small common sense requests that are flagged wontfix or are yet to be marked
this i why feature have been created. Devs are simply too short in time to see all and the vote system of bugzilla is recent (or only recently made visible)
I'm not a dev at all and report bugs from time to time, with reasonable success, including for yast
so could we go back to the subject of this already very long thread? thanks again jdd
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 20:32 +1000, alpha096@virginbroadband.com.au wrote:
The preference to type text above is mine as I think it more helpful.
It is against these lists culture and preference. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp1bisACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WB9wCeOseMp2fWCFMnsrvWyE/MouU9 2s0An2fq1nX4t5Igznwu0TAx6+mNGvmH =fIVM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
To me a switch to KDE default looks like putting GNOME one row to the back. Can we find a better solution than we currently have without giving out this message? Or is this no great alternative?
I'm just brainstorming loud below, perhaps somebody else gets a great idea: For example, we can also change the wording on the desktop selection dialog. * Saying "openSUSE strives to have the best GNOME and KDE desktops" doesn't sound helpful. * We say right now "As desktop selection is a matter of taste, we do not give a recommendation.". What about "Desktop selection is a matter of taste - and GNOME and KDE are both first-class desktops in openSUSE. Right now two thirds of our users prefer KDE and a quarter GNOME"?
OpenSUSE provides two polished first-class desktops. Desktop selection is a matter of taste, so try them and decided what your prefer. This is the text I like. Also, I think having KDE first would show the current user preference. This then could be modified based on the project download statistics for each release. Having the most download or registerd ... being the choice for what is listed first. This way we are not making so much of a political statement as showing the facts about the distribution. I am really getting tired of the often KDE vrs GNOME debate. I am in the KDE camp and hated the way Novell forced GNOME on SLE... I choose SUSE many because of the KDE focus originally. I hate this but maybe for the next-next crowd, if the user just clicks next it choosed the first choice, but with a message that this is being done and that one really should try the various desktops and make a choice on what they prefer. -- Boyd Gerber <gerberb@zenez.com> 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009, Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:
OpenSUSE provides two polished first-class desktops. Desktop selection is a matter of taste, so try them and decided what your prefer.
Or OpenSUSE all about choice, we provide first-class desktops. Desktop selection is a matter of taste. Try them and decide what you prefer. -- Boyd Gerber <gerberb@zenez.com> 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 11:19 -0600, Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009, Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:
OpenSUSE provides two polished first-class desktops. Desktop selection is a matter of taste, so try them and decided what your prefer.
Or
OpenSUSE all about choice, we provide first-class desktops. Desktop selection is a matter of taste. Try them and decide what you prefer.
As a GNOME developer and openSUSE user/member this is my opinion. If we have the two major desktop's supported by 2 big teams why make kde or gnome the default ? There's no sense because the two desktops are threated as first class citizen. Will opensuse gain more developers if it will make kde default ? I don't think so, because SUSE for all this years has lot's of developers working on kde upstream so simply make it default won't bring more developers. What will happen in 1 year ? Well GNOME 3.0 will be released next year and it will gain his momentum again. So in one year will we change the default desktop again when GNOME gains more users !? I think one of the main problems for what gnome developers don't pick opensuse it's because opensuse isn't really a developers friendly distro. I think for 11.2 this will change a bit since OBS is rocking and the GNOME Team is trying to give more developer tools and documentation (i.e. i wrote a howto on the GNOME wiki about building GNOME from git). Please stop with this "supposed features" because this will only separate the community and start non sense flame wars like emacs vs vim, banshee vs amarok etc... Cheers Luis -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009, Luis Medinas wrote:
On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 11:19 -0600, Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009, Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:
OpenSUSE provides two polished first-class desktops. Desktop selection is a matter of taste, so try them and decided what your prefer.
Or
OpenSUSE all about choice, we provide first-class desktops. Desktop selection is a matter of taste. Try them and decide what you prefer.
As a GNOME developer and openSUSE user/member this is my opinion. If we have the two major desktop's supported by 2 big teams why make kde or gnome the default ? There's no sense because the two desktops are threated as first class citizen.
Will opensuse gain more developers if it will make kde default ? I don't think so, because SUSE for all this years has lot's of developers working on kde upstream so simply make it default won't bring more developers. What will happen in 1 year ? Well GNOME 3.0 will be released next year and it will gain his momentum again. So in one year will we change the default desktop again when GNOME gains more users !?
I think one of the main problems for what gnome developers don't pick opensuse it's because opensuse isn't really a developers friendly distro. I think for 11.2 this will change a bit since OBS is rocking and the GNOME Team is trying to give more developer tools and documentation (i.e. i wrote a howto on the GNOME wiki about building GNOME from git).
Please stop with this "supposed features" because this will only separate the community and start non sense flame wars like emacs vs vim, banshee vs amarok etc...
I tend to agree with this totally. I like having the choice. I hate having to have a default. I think the OBS really rocks and will really make a difference to openSUSE. I was only suggesting the wording change as a way to highlight "We value choice and have great Desktops." That is why I like this text as a possible change to what is there now. This does not put any desktop above an other. OpenSUSE all about choice, we provide first-class desktops. Desktop selection is a matter of taste. Try them and decide what you prefer. This allows for all desktops, not just the major two. Even though some maybe a bit hidden. I guess, the reason I suggested the change of which desktop was listed first was a small conssesion. Having to based on some facts that are know. Would then stop this happening all the time. I like the choices the way they are. Maybe swapping the listing being the only change. -- Boyd Gerber <gerberb@zenez.com> 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 July 2009 16:44:37 Andreas Jaeger wrote:
To me a switch to KDE default looks like putting GNOME one row to the back. Can we find a better solution than we currently have without giving out
Just for the record and reminder: there have been two decisions/changes in the past. One was before/at 10.0 to have no desktop pre-selected and a second po- litical decision pushed KDE in 10.1 (so min. one release later) to the back. 10.0: http://i26.tinypic.com/2igghox.png 10.1: http://i28.tinypic.com/30skhf5.png Some will likely argue now that the alphabet was fixed in that release... ;-) But is there any solid reason to keep GNOME at top? Bye, Steve -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 July 2009 21:07:45 Stephan Binner wrote:
Just for the record and reminder: there have been two decisions/changes in the past. One was before/at 10.0 to have no desktop pre-selected and a second po- litical decision pushed KDE in 10.1 (so min. one release later) to the back.
10.0: http://i26.tinypic.com/2igghox.png 10.1: http://i28.tinypic.com/30skhf5.png
Besides that, GNOME's description was associated with a well-known, though not GNOME-app and yet available since ever on the KDE desktop (now even default webbrowser) - Firefox. Users would very likely pick GNOME instead, no doubts. -- Regards, Carlos Goncalves -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 July 2009 22:45:42 Carlos Goncalves wrote:
Besides that, GNOME's description was associated with a well-known, though not GNOME-app and yet available since ever on the KDE desktop (now even default webbrowser) - Firefox. Users would very likely pick GNOME instead,
Default application names are not mentioned anymore in current openSUSEs: http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/7/76/11_1-install-006.png My point is rather what did the second change/decision improve? Did GNOME numbers jump to the sky? Or did it rather alienate majority of KDE users? Bye, Steve -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-07-31 at 22:58 +0200, Stephan Binner wrote:
My point is rather what did the second change/decision improve? Did GNOME numbers jump to the sky? Or did it rather alienate majority of KDE users?
Alphabetical order is what is normally used everywhere to display no preferences for any side. List of countries, politicians, sportmen... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpzi5gACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XdkgCfdE9Z9+xyT8W2fb84R55dvBPX 080An0pSfyhdtJwLtGlXoWP8y73BMvCd =5yvA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Alphabetical order is what is normally used everywhere to display no preferences for any side. List of countries, politicians, sportmen... so why I know of AAA companies...
we have to help choice. openSUSE IS a great distro, so of course any change for good can only be a small change :-) What could be said is that it's possible for little cost to install both - may be we could make install both the default? This makes testing the two of them easy!! on modern computer this is not a problem jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-08-01 at 08:32 +0200, jdd (kim2) wrote:
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Alphabetical order is what is normally used everywhere to display no preferences for any side. List of countries, politicians, sportmen... so why I know of AAA companies...
Good point :-( In Spanish we say "hecha la ley, hecha la trampa" (a law was made, the cheat was also made). Then, use a random order. It is a computer, the order can be selected randomly on the spot.
we have to help choice.
openSUSE IS a great distro, so of course any change for good can only be a small change :-)
What could be said is that it's possible for little cost to install both - may be we could make install both the default? This makes testing the two of them easy!!
I install and use both. Actually, I install all of them. I like to use a gnome desktop with kde tools... I will suffer if gnome or kde is pushed away. However, some people I know think that having both desktops is problematic (!), and do full separated installs of each on the same computer. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp0CPcACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UyyQCcDSj/JuEJzBIgygpaeMC2Ly+E lQ0AoIZm2Oqrk4eww9UCcCAyFdbB8mpe =9j3e -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009, jdd (kim2) wrote:
What could be said is that it's possible for little cost to install both - may be we could make install both the default? This makes testing the two of them easy!!
Which login manager would be used then, gdm or kdm? And which environment would be started by default, GNOME or KDE?
on modern computer this is not a problem
I'm having both installed even on my not-so-modern notebook, alas the proposal does not really address the problem, just pushes it back. On Sat, 1 Aug 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Then, use a random order. It is a computer, the order can be selected randomly on the spot.
Sounds like a support and usability nightmare; and which variant is going to appear in the manual? Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management F +49(911)74053-483 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances GF Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-08-01 at 20:16 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009, jdd (kim2) wrote:
What could be said is that it's possible for little cost to install both - may be we could make install both the default? This makes testing the two of them easy!!
Which login manager would be used then, gdm or kdm?
And which environment would be started by default, GNOME or KDE?
Whatever the administrator of each machine decides.
on modern computer this is not a problem
I'm having both installed even on my not-so-modern notebook, alas the proposal does not really address the problem, just pushes it back.
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Then, use a random order. It is a computer, the order can be selected randomly on the spot.
Sounds like a support and usability nightmare; and which variant is going to appear in the manual?
I don't see why, but I suppose you know more of those things. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp0mFQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WLBQCePkl0BxrD8cZYDZsa3dIp4ZxU 00AAn2pmMtYgoY4ye8cnyS7K+2BiCa2R =7KdD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Stephan Binner a écrit :
Default application names are not mentioned anymore in current openSUSEs: http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/7/76/11_1-install-006.png
yes, and the description there have no meaning (nearly identical, don't help choice) Why not ask the respective kde/gnome comunity to write themselve the sentence? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 22:58:04 +0200, Stephan Binner wrote:
My point is rather what did the second change/decision improve? Did GNOME numbers jump to the sky? Or did it rather alienate majority of KDE users?
I would suggest that if the ordering of the options (or the inclusion of GNOME in the main selection list) alienated some KDE users, then those users who were alienated need to get a thicker skin and stop worrying about the fact that the installation screen provides a *choice*. As a GNOME user, I'm not bothered by the inclusion of KDE 3.5 and KDE 4.0 in the installation. People want to use one of those releases, that's cool, it's not my preference, so I'm not inclined to select it as the primary interface at installation time. What I'm really curious about is what it is that those who *are* threatened by the inclusion of a GNOME option (clearly not all KDE users are threatened by this, so we're talking about what I sincerely hope is a small group of vocal people) are so afraid of with the inclusion of GNOME or the lack of a pre-selection being made for KDE. Are they afraid that users might decide to use something other than KDE and that will somehow cause resource allocation to the KDE project (which is not controlled by Novell *or* openSUSE) to be diminished? If you don't want GNOME as a choice (or want a pre-selected KDE installation), then there's an answer to that: Use SUSE Studio to create your own installation media that has what you want in it. I would far rather see the project's focus not be diverted by what is essentially a religious debate about which desktop is better, because neither is better in an absolute manner, because users have different needs. "Better" for me is not "better" for other users. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 01 August 2009 19:23, Jim Henderson wrote:
What I'm really curious about is what it is that those who *are* threatened by the inclusion of a GNOME option (clearly not all KDE users are threatened by this, so we're talking about what I sincerely hope is a small group of vocal people) are so afraid of with the inclusion of GNOME or the lack of a pre-selection being made for KDE. It is a small group of vocal people.
Are they afraid that users might decide to use something other than KDE and that will somehow cause resource allocation to the KDE project (which is not controlled by Novell *or* openSUSE) to be diminished? No. its basically more human than any of that. Some people are simply afraid of those who are different... not like them. Most of this preference stuff is just that simple---difference fear. Diviersity is a good thing. Choice is a good thing. Diversity and choice strengthen the suse product. Customers like choice, and suse users are fundamentally drawn to customer choice and customer freedom. Chevy-Ford Pepsi-Coke Gnome-KDE suse-ubuntu :) whatever.... and its not just an American thing either. Most folks the world over love choice. Take their choice away, and it will have negative repurcussions. The default should be choice, and don't be swayed by small groups of vocal lobbyists who are threatened by other users personal preferences--choices.
-- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 01 Aug 2009 20:52:56 -0500, M Harris wrote:
No. its basically more human than any of that. Some people are simply afraid of those who are different... not like them. Most of this preference stuff is just that simple---difference fear.
Ironic to find this in the OSS community, where one of the hallmarks is choice. Perhaps not unexpected, but certainly ironic.
Diviersity is a good thing. Choice is a good thing. Diversity and choice strengthen the suse product. Customers like choice, and suse users are fundamentally drawn to customer choice and customer freedom.
I agree. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Your mail is quite easy to answer by turning all your arguments around, just see: On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Jim Henderson wrote:
I would suggest that if the ordering of the options (or the inclusion of GNOME in the main selection list) alienated some KDE users, then those users who were alienated need to get a thicker skin and stop worrying
And that is why we cannot aknowledge the simple fact that the reality is that the majority of users do select that option anyway? It's ok to ask the KDE majority to get thicker skin, but it's not ok to ask the same of the GNOME minority?
about the fact that the installation screen provides a *choice*.
As a GNOME user, I'm not bothered by the inclusion of KDE 3.5 and KDE 4.0 in the installation. People want to use one of those releases, that's cool, it's not my preference, so I'm not inclined to select it as the primary interface at installation time.
And it's the same the other way around. I don't think most users are bothered by the fact that GNOME is provided in the screen too. The point is, it is not provided as a choice, it is required as a choice, where the preference is obvious. This is a clear message for and against the communities.
What I'm really curious about is what it is that those who *are* threatened by the inclusion of a GNOME option (clearly not all KDE users are threatened by this, so we're talking about what I sincerely hope is a small group of vocal people) are so afraid of with the inclusion of GNOME
I think it is rather clear by now that openSUSE currently does not see the benefits of Will's proposal to focus openSUSE on KDE. And even that proposal has nothing against the inclusion of GNOME, so please stop the usual we-poor-minority-are-being-bullied rubbish.
or the lack of a pre-selection being made for KDE. Are they afraid that users might decide to use something other than KDE and that will somehow cause resource allocation to the KDE project (which is not controlled by Novell *or* openSUSE) to be diminished?
Sending repeated messages "you are welcome, but not really as much as others" in the KDE direction is something that has negative impact on KDE contributors. And this is controlled by openSUSE or Novell.
If you don't want GNOME as a choice (or want a pre-selected KDE installation), then there's an answer to that: Use SUSE Studio to create your own installation media that has what you want in it.
Or how about you use SUSE Studio to create your own installation media that pretends that KDE is not the majority of users and give that to GNOME users without offending the KDE ones?
I would far rather see the project's focus not be diverted by what is essentially a religious debate about which desktop is better, because neither is better in an absolute manner, because users have different needs. "Better" for me is not "better" for other users.
I'm not talking about which desktop is better. I'm talking about the fact that we try to grow our community and at the same time we repeatedly shoot ourselves in the foot by alienating our biggest part of the existing community. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 09:10 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
Your mail is quite easy to answer by turning all your arguments around, just see:
On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Jim Henderson wrote:
the majority of users do select that option anyway? It's ok to ask the KDE majority to get thicker skin, but it's not ok to ask the same of the GNOME
or the lack of a pre-selection being made for KDE. Are they afraid that users might decide to use something other than KDE and that will somehow cause resource allocation to the KDE project (which is not controlled by Novell *or* openSUSE) to be diminished?
Sending repeated messages "you are welcome, but not really as much as others" in the KDE direction is something that has negative impact on KDE contributors. And this is controlled by openSUSE or Novell.
But this proposal intends to say, that someone is more welcomed than others, instead of all are welcomed equally. Thats bad and ugly. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp1WOcACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WcbwCgk9VA02TIfpGbwGBAgedzPTv8 uVsAn2W3+pt+GB6WeCXy9TPHOgOOZS3V =av42 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
But this proposal intends to say, that someone is more welcomed than others, instead of all are welcomed equally. Thats bad and ugly.
this thread is so long I don't know exacltly at what question you try to answer :-) However, supposing it's to the main thread subject, I think openSUSE should have a default GUI, whathever you want (I don't bother it being Gnome or Kde), of course retaining all the present options. we should be able to know what somebody say when he say "I installed all by default" on phone call or mail jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 11:18 +0200, jdd (kim2) wrote:
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
But this proposal intends to say, that someone is more welcomed than others, instead of all are welcomed equally. Thats bad and ugly.
this thread is so long I don't know exacltly at what question you try to answer :-)
That's easy to know, just use a threaded mail program ;-)
However, supposing it's to the main thread subject, I think openSUSE should have a default GUI, whathever you want (I don't bother it being Gnome or Kde), of course retaining all the present options.
we should be able to know what somebody say when he say "I installed all by default" on phone call or mail
No, I don't think so. One of the main points of Linux is having choices, and the sooner the new user realizes that, the better. And anyway, even if someone says that he installed all by default, he will soon enough depart from that. Will then gnome users, which would not be the default install, be pushed back from support as second citizens, because they didn't install the default? Same as if you open a box voiding the warranty? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp1W/QACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U9vACfbZu5WPQ0WjYUQFliFZgf8Bs9 GUkAoIJmyT4y2UHN5e1QuLl5/YAMNOEd =M0uf -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
No, I don't think so. One of the main points of Linux is having choices, and the sooner the new user realizes that, the better.
can be. this may also stop some people. On my first Linux computer (486, 8Mo ram), I could not make X run, so the choice was not there :-). this is a true question: what are the people we want to join openSUSE? how much beginners do we want them?
And anyway, even if someone says that he installed all by default, he will soon enough depart from that. Will then gnome users, which would not be the default install, be pushed back from support as second citizens, because they didn't install the default? Same as if you open a box voiding the warranty?
no but it makes help easier, jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 02 Aug 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 11:18 +0200, jdd (kim2) wrote:
Carlos E. R. a écrit : However, supposing it's to the main thread subject, I think openSUSE should have a default GUI, whathever you want (I don't bother it being Gnome or Kde), of course retaining all the present options.
we should be able to know what somebody say when he say "I installed all by default" on phone call or mail
No, I don't think so. One of the main points of Linux is having choices, and the sooner the new user realizes that, the better.
The key to sensible choices is relevant information. We (the Linux community) don't provide the kind of information people need to choose between the various desktop offerings. Presenting a choice in these circumstances is the same as making a random selection for them. The statements about "this (or that) desktop is better" are incomplete and misleading. They are better for particular purposes. KDE is "better" because it is more similar to Windows is a sensible statement which can be both verified and understood. xfce is "better" because it is lightweight and runs faster on machines with fewer resources (i.e. older machines) is also a useful (and verifiable) statement. I don't know much about Gnome so can't make similar statements about it. Lets get away from personal preferences and start saying things which help others, especially naive users. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 11:53 +0100, Administrator wrote:
No, I don't think so. One of the main points of Linux is having choices, and the sooner the new user realizes that, the better.
The key to sensible choices is relevant information. We (the Linux community) don't provide the kind of information people need to choose between the various desktop offerings. Presenting a choice in these circumstances is the same as making a random selection for them.
The statements about "this (or that) desktop is better" are incomplete and misleading. They are better for particular purposes. KDE is "better" because it is more similar to Windows is a sensible statement which can be both verified and understood. xfce is "better" because it is lightweight and runs faster on machines with fewer resources (i.e. older machines) is also a useful (and verifiable) statement. I don't know much about Gnome so can't make similar statements about it.
Lets get away from personal preferences and start saying things which help others, especially naive users.
That's fine with me... :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp1dCMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X2+wCfVGnRUpcwVEr4NrntKD4MLZXL LZwAn3iE+O7iUKGK0fWK4zuA5RXJtdii =zHmi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 09:10 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
Sending repeated messages "you are welcome, but not really as much as others" in the KDE direction is something that has negative impact on KDE contributors. And this is controlled by openSUSE or Novell.
But this proposal intends to say, that someone is more welcomed than others, instead of all are welcomed equally. Thats bad and ugly.
I can again just turn it around to show you that you are wrong. Since in that case we would already say that the following are not welcome in openSUSE: Xfce users, Emacs users, Thunderbird users, SELinux users, Compiz users, Epiphany users, Konqueror users, Mutt users and I could go on and on like this until it would be absolutely ridiculous. Besides, right now someone is more welcomed than others. Can you guess who it is that currently has a special treatment in openSUSE that no other community has? How are we to tell new potentional contributors that everybody is welcomed equally in openSUSE when it is clearly not the case? That's bad and ugly. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 11:38 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 09:10 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
Sending repeated messages "you are welcome, but not really as much as others" in the KDE direction is something that has negative impact on KDE contributors. And this is controlled by openSUSE or Novell.
But this proposal intends to say, that someone is more welcomed than others, instead of all are welcomed equally. Thats bad and ugly.
I can again just turn it around to show you that you are wrong. Since in that case we would already say that the following are not welcome in openSUSE: Xfce users, Emacs users, Thunderbird users, SELinux users, Compiz users, Epiphany users, Konqueror users, Mutt users and I could go on and on like this until it would be absolutely ridiculous.
I use some of that list and I don't feel unwelcomed.
Besides, right now someone is more welcomed than others. Can you guess who it is that currently has a special treatment in openSUSE that no other community has? How are we to tell new potentional contributors that everybody is welcomed equally in openSUSE when it is clearly not the case? That's bad and ugly.
No, I don't see that. Or I didn't: now the message I get is that gnome is not welcomed, by majority vote. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp1ZX8ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UwBACeLWV+yHvbevpB8SkOYn5xLeOd bBYAn3d3B+Lpya21yL2n0l3K9sI6eLMu =QoTm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 11:38 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But this proposal intends to say, that someone is more welcomed than others, instead of all are welcomed equally. Thats bad and ugly.
I can again just turn it around to show you that you are wrong. Since in that case we would already say that the following are not welcome in openSUSE: Xfce users, Emacs users, Thunderbird users, SELinux users, Compiz users, Epiphany users, Konqueror users, Mutt users and I could go on and on like this until it would be absolutely ridiculous.
I use some of that list and I don't feel unwelcomed.
Very well. Then we can preselect the most used desktop, like we preselect the most used browser, editor, mailer, etc. ; and you can choose to use GNOME and not feel unwelcomed either. There does not seem to be any difference.
Besides, right now someone is more welcomed than others. Can you guess who it is that currently has a special treatment in openSUSE that no other community has? How are we to tell new potentional contributors that everybody is welcomed equally in openSUSE when it is clearly not the case? That's bad and ugly.
No, I don't see that. Or I didn't: now the message I get is that gnome is not welcomed, by majority vote.
By the same logic, you should get the message that all those things in the list above are not welcomed, by the majority vote. Yet you've just said that you do not. So again, do you have any other reason to propose that openSUSE treats GNOME specially (that is, unequally, which is what you claim to be against) or are you just pushing your personal agenda and you don't want to admit it? -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 12:25 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 11:38 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But this proposal intends to say, that someone is more welcomed than others, instead of all are welcomed equally. Thats bad and ugly.
I can again just turn it around to show you that you are wrong. Since in that case we would already say that the following are not welcome in openSUSE: Xfce users, Emacs users, Thunderbird users, SELinux users, Compiz users, Epiphany users, Konqueror users, Mutt users and I could go on and on like this until it would be absolutely ridiculous.
I use some of that list and I don't feel unwelcomed.
Very well. Then we can preselect the most used desktop, like we preselect the most used browser, editor, mailer, etc. ; and you can choose to use GNOME and not feel unwelcomed either. There does not seem to be any difference.
Besides, right now someone is more welcomed than others. Can you guess who it is that currently has a special treatment in openSUSE that no other community has? How are we to tell new potentional contributors that everybody is welcomed equally in openSUSE when it is clearly not the case? That's bad and ugly.
No, I don't see that. Or I didn't: now the message I get is that gnome is not welcomed, by majority vote.
By the same logic, you should get the message that all those things in the list above are not welcomed, by the majority vote. Yet you've just said that you do not. So again, do you have any other reason to propose that openSUSE treats GNOME specially (that is, unequally, which is what you claim to be against) or are you just pushing your personal agenda and you don't want to admit it?
What? What on earth are you talking about? I have not seen an openfate voting to select thunderbird as the preferred mailer, for instance. What I'm seeing a vote (F 306967) against gnome, to push kde to the primary role, officially. You call that equal terms? Oh, common! You are trying to increase the number of users that "choose" kde by preselecting for them "kde". Instead of fair competition, you are creating prewriten votes with the vote you want. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp1baIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XjHwCfQlwTGKRxPX/yW3kgnKOT5wrf 3mIAn3FiiUYj/aIztBw5+ouhsorHvJjC =FF0Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 12:25 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
By the same logic, you should get the message that all those things in the list above are not welcomed, by the majority vote. Yet you've just said that you do not. So again, do you have any other reason to propose that openSUSE treats GNOME specially (that is, unequally, which is what you claim to be against) or are you just pushing your personal agenda and you don't want to admit it?
What? What on earth are you talking about?
I have not seen an openfate voting to select thunderbird as the preferred mailer, for instance. What I'm seeing a vote (F 306967) against gnome, to push kde to the primary role, officially. You call that equal terms?
First, since KDE is used by majority of users, KDE already is in the primary role in openSUSE in practice, it is just that for political reasons this is not admitted. Second, it is your interpretation that I am doing anything against GNOME other than trying to make it treated equally with others, instead of it having special priviledges. And, third, equal terms means no special priviledges.
Oh, common!
You are trying to increase the number of users that "choose" kde by preselecting for them "kde".
Whereas you are trying to increase the number of users that "choose" GNOME by not preselecting anything and having "GNOME" first? This issue still goes both ways.
Instead of fair competition, you are creating prewriten votes with the vote you want.
I'm afraid I don't comprehend what this sentence is supposed to mean. But, again, you argue with "fair", yet you are fine with GNOME having special priviledges that others don't have. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 13:13 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
First, since KDE is used by majority of users, KDE already is in the primary role in openSUSE in practice, it is just that for political reasons this is not admitted.
That's fine with me.
Second, it is your interpretation that I am doing anything against GNOME other than trying to make it treated equally with others, instead of it having special priviledges.
What special privileges?
And, third, equal terms means no special priviledges.
Oh, common!
You are trying to increase the number of users that "choose" kde by preselecting for them "kde".
Whereas you are trying to increase the number of users that "choose" GNOME by not preselecting anything and having "GNOME" first? This issue still goes both ways.
And you want to put KDE first, instead of the standard practice of using alphabetical order. If you object to alphabetical order, then push for random order.
Instead of fair competition, you are creating prewriten votes with the vote you want.
I'm afraid I don't comprehend what this sentence is supposed to mean.
But, again, you argue with "fair", yet you are fine with GNOME having special priviledges that others don't have.
What special privileges? I don't see any. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp1eSEACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UOPgCcDG1cUAxhZ+yVNLVmeq1SxojI AUcAn1hDOhZpWA5bDYAgR5LFMJRibCFf =HpGn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Søndag den 2. august 2009 13:31:38 skrev Carlos E. R.:
On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 13:13 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
Whereas you are trying to increase the number of users that "choose" GNOME by not preselecting anything and having "GNOME" first? This issue still goes both ways.
And you want to put KDE first, instead of the standard practice of using alphabetical order.
Get real. You don't really believe that BS.
Instead of fair competition, you are creating prewriten votes with the vote you want.
I'm afraid I don't comprehend what this sentence is supposed to mean.
But, again, you argue with "fair", yet you are fine with GNOME having special priviledges that others don't have.
What special privileges? I don't see any.
How about being listed first in the desktop selection screen despite being used only by a small minority. Don't you know your history? You sound like the current situation was always so. The reality is that some invisible monster forced the current messy situation upon us, against the wishes of the vast majority of the community, when historically KDE was the default. And 3-4 years later, the only thing that has been achieved is chasing away a lot of KDE users - without attracting a great many GNOME users. If this horrible injustice was corrected it might also relieve some of the animosity openSUSE KDE users feel against GNOME users - apart from all the other benefits to the project of coming correct. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Martin Schlander a écrit :
And 3-4 years later, the only thing that has been achieved is chasing away a lot of KDE users - without attracting a great many GNOME users.
do you really think so? what is the kde distro users could join going away from openSUSE? Trueth is this default problem is minor, despite the lenght of the thread :-) relax jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Søndag den 2. august 2009 14:26:35 skrev jdd (kim2):
Martin Schlander a écrit :
And 3-4 years later, the only thing that has been achieved is chasing away a lot of KDE users - without attracting a great many GNOME users.
do you really think so? what is the kde distro users could join going away from openSUSE?
Where do you think Kubuntu got all their users from? ;-) Canonical may not have invested much in KDE in the past - but at least Mark Shuttleworth has the intelligence to publicly express appreciation for the KDE community every chance he gets and appear wearing a KDE t-shirt at strategically convenient times and such. Whereas the "message" from Novell towards KDE users in recent years have been: "We'd like to replace our existing users and contributors with new ones, thank you, goodbye". Which is of course a very poor strategy - and not succesful either. Everybody should know that keeping existing "customers" is much easier than getting new ones.
Trueth is this default problem is minor, despite the lenght of the thread :-)
Nope, it's a major problem. It's a constant reminder to a majority of our community that they're not really appreciated - only just barely tolerated - and that important decisions are not made based on common sense or what's good for openSUSE, but on the whims and political agendas of some invisble managers somewhere. Which of course creates some animosity against the minority that abuses it's position to force it's will on openSUSE against the best interest of the project. It's a "usability" problem because new users are forced to make a decision during install (or download of livecds) they're likely not equipped to make. And if they make the wrong decision they'll have a harder time getting help online later, finding documentation, suffer inferior Packman support etc. It's a marketing problem because openSUSE lacks an identity and more often than not, the press is confused and reviews a minority desktop instead of reviewing what ~70% of openSUSE users use. It also makes It's a support problem, because when trying to help a new user you have no way to estimate the outcome of the desktop lottery. The current situation is simply a mess. But it might be the best we may have... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 15:28 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
do you really think so? what is the kde distro users could join going away from openSUSE?
Where do you think Kubuntu got all their users from? ;-)
Canonical may not have invested much in KDE in the past - but at least Mark Shuttleworth has the intelligence to publicly express appreciation for the KDE community every chance he gets and appear wearing a KDE t-shirt at strategically convenient times and such.
Whereas the "message" from Novell towards KDE users in recent years have been: "We'd like to replace our existing users and contributors with new ones, thank you, goodbye". Which is of course a very poor strategy - and not succesful either. Everybody should know that keeping existing "customers" is much easier than getting new ones.
I haven't got that "message" from Novell. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp2HWgACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WDQwCfVBPMyRHlbqBTKsd4O5Ojbqad 4uQAni5kXrcxME6pyr+YwsbHP6CyUIFd =qo9c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 15:28:59 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
Whereas the "message" from Novell towards KDE users in recent years have been: "We'd like to replace our existing users and contributors with new ones, thank you, goodbye".
Well, I for one don't see it that way. I don't develop for GNOME or KDE nor do I use KDE extensively (there are two KDE apps I do use so I have libraries for both installed), but I don't see Novell's actions in any way saying "we don't want KDE developers to be involved". Those who interpret Novell's actions as such would seem to be saying that *any* GNOME development in openSUSE is a signal that Novell doesn't want KDE developers involved, and clearly that's a ridiculous assertion.
Trueth is this default problem is minor, despite the lenght of the thread
Nope, it's a major problem.
It's a constant reminder to a majority of our community that they're not really appreciated - only just barely tolerated - and that important decisions are not made based on common sense or what's good for openSUSE, but on the whims and political agendas of some invisble managers somewhere. Which of course creates some animosity against the minority that abuses it's position to force it's will on openSUSE against the best interest of the project.
Are you seriously suggesting that the addition of *choices* to the installation menu (and the lack of preferring any one over the other) is such a dire situation that it rises to the level of "yeah, you're there, and we don't want you developing KDE stuff, but we'll put up with it"? If that's truly the case, then nothing short of the total removal of GNOME, XFCE, and the other possible installation options is truly going to make those people happy. Otherwise, the inclusion of other choices is just a reminder that they're not the only kids in the sandbox. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2 Aug 2009, Martin Schlander wrote:
Whereas the "message" from Novell towards KDE users in recent years have been: "We'd like to replace our existing users and contributors with new ones, thank you, goodbye". Which is of course a very poor strategy - and not succesful either. Everybody should know that keeping existing "customers" is much easier than getting new ones.
That definitely is not a message the vast majority of us at Novell ever wanted to send, and I don't think it was understood like that by many (certainly not by our Enterprise customers, and believe me, these tend to raise things important to them quite unambigously. ;-) I have not been involved in the decisions back then, but waving users, customers, or openSUSE contributors goodbye was none of the goals, that much I know.
It's a constant reminder to a majority of our community that they're not really appreciated - only just barely tolerated - and that important decisions are not made based on common sense or what's good for openSUSE, but on the whims and political agendas of some invisble managers somewhere.
This is so far from a fair description of the current situation of openSUSE that it is saddening my heart to read it.
Which of course creates some animosity against the minority that abuses it's position to force it's will on openSUSE against the best interest of the project.
There is no such minority, neither behind closed doors nor out in the open. Adrian, AJ, Coolo, Henne, Michl, myself, Zonker (in alphabetical order) and many more all strive to make the openSUSE project as successful as possible. Our political agenda is quite simple: make openSUSE the most successful community distribution. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management F +49(911)74053-483 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances GF Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Søndag den 9. august 2009 19:53:31 skrev Gerald Pfeifer:
On Sun, 2 Aug 2009, Martin Schlander wrote:
Which of course creates some animosity against the minority that abuses it's position to force it's will on openSUSE against the best interest of the project.
There is no such minority, neither behind closed doors nor out in the open. Adrian, AJ, Coolo, Henne, Michl, myself, Zonker (in alphabetical order) and many more all strive to make the openSUSE project as successful as possible.
I was probably a bit unclear on this point. I meant anti-GNOME sentiments might be fed by the strange and unhelpful GNOME favouritism. And noone in openSUSE management is under suspicion by me, for being responsible for this mess. If openSUSE management had decided it wouldn't be abuse, just poor decision making ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2009-08-09 at 22:50 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
I meant anti-GNOME sentiments might be fed by the strange and unhelpful GNOME favouritism.
I'm asking this question as objectively and impartially as I can, because personally, I perceive a fairly equal amount of attention between KDE and GNOME. What do you feel lends to an unhelpful favouritism? I'm finding a lot of inaccurate statements have been levied by different people in several threads this week, and I think its time we addressed those perceptions (some real, some misguided) in an effort to make our Community stronger as a whole. Bryen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Sonntag, den 09.08.2009, 15:57 -0500 schrieb Bryen M Yunashko:
On Sun, 2009-08-09 at 22:50 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
I meant anti-GNOME sentiments might be fed by the strange and unhelpful GNOME favouritism.
I'm asking this question as objectively and impartially as I can, because personally, I perceive a fairly equal amount of attention between KDE and GNOME. What do you feel lends to an unhelpful favouritism?
As I understood it, Mr Schlander detects 'strange and unhelpful favoritism' in the very fact that GNOME is treated equally. He thinks that GNOME should not be treated as KDE's equal. And I for one have a problem with this sentiment. As far as I'm concerned, the only _real_ problem that has come to the surface in this thread is Mr Schlander's attitude. Greetings, Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Sonntag, 9. August 2009 23:10:07 schrieb Christian Jäger:
As I understood it, Mr Schlander detects 'strange and unhelpful favoritism' in the very fact that GNOME is treated equally. He thinks that GNOME should not be treated as KDE's equal.
You try to hard and thus fail.
And I for one have a problem with this sentiment.
As far as I'm concerned, the only _real_ problem that has come to the surface in this thread is Mr Schlander's attitude.
Sure, reading your emails I cannot see any exaggerations, just objective wording and arguments that discussed the topic in a neutral way. Applying double standards is a real attitude problem. And please stop projecting your character onto others. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Søndag den 9. august 2009 22:57:49 skrev Bryen M Yunashko:
On Sun, 2009-08-09 at 22:50 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
I meant anti-GNOME sentiments might be fed by the strange and unhelpful GNOME favouritism.
I'm asking this question as objectively and impartially as I can, because personally, I perceive a fairly equal amount of attention between KDE and GNOME. What do you feel lends to an unhelpful favouritism?
I think enough has been said about this before. If I repeat what I and others have already said, the whole thing will just blow up again. I only repsonded to Gerald's mail because what I had written could be misinterpreted as an attack on current openSUSE management, and I wanted to make clear that was not my intentions. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2009-08-09 at 23:22 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
Søndag den 9. august 2009 22:57:49 skrev Bryen M Yunashko:
On Sun, 2009-08-09 at 22:50 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
I meant anti-GNOME sentiments might be fed by the strange and unhelpful GNOME favouritism.
I'm asking this question as objectively and impartially as I can, because personally, I perceive a fairly equal amount of attention between KDE and GNOME. What do you feel lends to an unhelpful favouritism?
I think enough has been said about this before. If I repeat what I and others have already said, the whole thing will just blow up again.
I only repsonded to Gerald's mail because what I had written could be misinterpreted as an attack on current openSUSE management, and I wanted to make clear that was not my intentions.
Well, as a board member, I have a great interest in these matters and finding ways to resolve conflicts of perception. You may have attempted to clear up an unintended attack to Gerald, but you closed that statement with another attack. If you don't wish to elaborate, that's fine and I respect that. But it ties my hands to make sane and rational recommendations as a representative of the community. And, unfortunately, it comes off like a hit-and-run. -- Bryen Yunashko openSUSE Board Member GNOME-A11y Team Member www.bryen.com (Personal Blog) www.planet-a11y.net (Feed aggregator of the Accessibility Community) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Søndag den 9. august 2009 23:33:06 skrev Bryen M Yunashko:
On Sun, 2009-08-09 at 23:22 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
Søndag den 9. august 2009 22:57:49 skrev Bryen M Yunashko:
On Sun, 2009-08-09 at 22:50 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
I meant anti-GNOME sentiments might be fed by the strange and unhelpful GNOME favouritism.
I'm asking this question as objectively and impartially as I can, because personally, I perceive a fairly equal amount of attention between KDE and GNOME. What do you feel lends to an unhelpful favouritism?
I think enough has been said about this before. If I repeat what I and others have already said, the whole thing will just blow up again.
I only repsonded to Gerald's mail because what I had written could be misinterpreted as an attack on current openSUSE management, and I wanted to make clear that was not my intentions.
Well, as a board member, I have a great interest in these matters and finding ways to resolve conflicts of perception. You may have attempted to clear up an unintended attack to Gerald, but you closed that statement with another attack.
Well, not a new "attack". Basically just restating what has been said from the beginning. That not having a default/preselection is quite unusual and unhelpful for the project. And that the historical default/preselection would not have been removed without top-down, politically motivated, irrational favouritism. The point was to clarify what I had meant with "...animosity against the minority..." in the initial mail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Sonntag, 9. August 2009 23:33:06 schrieb Bryen M Yunashko:
On Sun, 2009-08-09 at 23:22 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
Søndag den 9. august 2009 22:57:49 skrev Bryen M Yunashko:
On Sun, 2009-08-09 at 22:50 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
I meant anti-GNOME sentiments might be fed by the strange and unhelpful GNOME favouritism.
I'm asking this question as objectively and impartially as I can, because personally, I perceive a fairly equal amount of attention between KDE and GNOME. What do you feel lends to an unhelpful favouritism?
I think enough has been said about this before. If I repeat what I and others have already said, the whole thing will just blow up again.
I only repsonded to Gerald's mail because what I had written could be misinterpreted as an attack on current openSUSE management, and I wanted to make clear that was not my intentions.
Well, as a board member, I have a great interest in these matters and finding ways to resolve conflicts of perception. You may have attempted to clear up an unintended attack to Gerald, but you closed that statement with another attack.
If you don't wish to elaborate, that's fine and I respect that. But it ties my hands to make sane and rational recommendations as a representative of the community. And, unfortunately, it comes off like a hit-and-run.
A first step would be to find out whether Novell's acting and decisions are projected on openSUSE by the community and non-users or not, i.e. is openSUSE seen as mostly independent from the rest of Novell or not. This includes e.g. technical, political as well as financial aspects. If openSUSE is seen as independent, i.e. whatever happens within Novell (decisions taken, investments made, contract signed etc.) is not projected on openSUSE then one has to only look at the treatment of x and y within openSUSE. If whatever Novell does is projected on openSUSE, e.g. the Microsoft deal coming up when users discuss the pros and cons of openSUSE, then one has to sum-up all resources and decisions Novell took over the last years to find out whether its claim to treat x and y equally holds. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2 Aug 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But this proposal intends to say, that someone is more welcomed than others, instead of all are welcomed equally. Thats bad and ugly.
With that argument, we should not offer a default file system. Nor a default MTA. Nor a default shell. Nor a default boot loader. Nor a default font size. And so on and on and on... Choice is not (necessarily) about not having a default; it is about the ability to choose. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management F +49(911)74053-483 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances GF Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 18:21 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Sun, 2 Aug 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But this proposal intends to say, that someone is more welcomed than others, instead of all are welcomed equally. Thats bad and ugly.
With that argument, we should not offer a default file system.
Nor a default MTA.
I argued against the removal of sendmail. There is no longer any choice here.
Nor a default shell.
Nor a default boot loader.
I argued against the removal of lilo. There is no longer any choice here. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp2HiYACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VP3QCfRTlW32DPlLFPU9r4REJfA2UW 5bYAoI9gxaI3jWc8LmR9w9nBFg76OmaZ =LqU/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 09:10:35 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
Your mail is quite easy to answer by turning all your arguments around, just see:
On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Jim Henderson wrote:
I would suggest that if the ordering of the options (or the inclusion of GNOME in the main selection list) alienated some KDE users, then those users who were alienated need to get a thicker skin and stop worrying
And that is why we cannot aknowledge the simple fact that the reality is that the majority of users do select that option anyway? It's ok to ask the KDE majority to get thicker skin, but it's not ok to ask the same of the GNOME minority?
I have a pretty thick skin. I don't mind there being a choice for KDE available.
about the fact that the installation screen provides a *choice*.
As a GNOME user, I'm not bothered by the inclusion of KDE 3.5 and KDE 4.0 in the installation. People want to use one of those releases, that's cool, it's not my preference, so I'm not inclined to select it as the primary interface at installation time.
And it's the same the other way around. I don't think most users are bothered by the fact that GNOME is provided in the screen too. The point is, it is not provided as a choice, it is required as a choice, where the preference is obvious. This is a clear message for and against the communities.
I would disagree, it's not "required" that anyone select GNOME or KDE as it is now.
What I'm really curious about is what it is that those who *are* threatened by the inclusion of a GNOME option (clearly not all KDE users are threatened by this, so we're talking about what I sincerely hope is a small group of vocal people) are so afraid of with the inclusion of GNOME
I think it is rather clear by now that openSUSE currently does not see the benefits of Will's proposal to focus openSUSE on KDE. And even that proposal has nothing against the inclusion of GNOME, so please stop the usual we-poor-minority-are-being-bullied rubbish.
Um, I don't believe I said that anywhere, Lubos. Please don't put words in my mouth. At the same time, I'd have to point out that it is a vocal minority of KDE users who are engaging in this "we-poor-minority-are- being-bullied" rubbish because KDE isn't the only or the default choice.
or the lack of a pre-selection being made for KDE. Are they afraid that users might decide to use something other than KDE and that will somehow cause resource allocation to the KDE project (which is not controlled by Novell *or* openSUSE) to be diminished?
Sending repeated messages "you are welcome, but not really as much as others" in the KDE direction is something that has negative impact on KDE contributors. And this is controlled by openSUSE or Novell.
Not "not really as much as others" - but "no more than others".
If you don't want GNOME as a choice (or want a pre-selected KDE installation), then there's an answer to that: Use SUSE Studio to create your own installation media that has what you want in it.
Or how about you use SUSE Studio to create your own installation media that pretends that KDE is not the majority of users and give that to GNOME users without offending the KDE ones?
Because the distribution as it is today meets the needs of both communities (ie, the majority of KDE users and the GNOME users). The only group it's not "meeting the needs of" is the minority of KDE users who think that it should be the only or default choice.
I would far rather see the project's focus not be diverted by what is essentially a religious debate about which desktop is better, because neither is better in an absolute manner, because users have different needs. "Better" for me is not "better" for other users.
I'm not talking about which desktop is better. I'm talking about the fact that we try to grow our community and at the same time we repeatedly shoot ourselves in the foot by alienating our biggest part of the existing community.
By increasing the community by adding in people from the GNOME in an inclusive way. Sorry, I don't see that as "shooting ourselves in the foot", but rather saying to the KDE users who don't want there to be any other choice "you win, you can have it your way" and letting that vocal minority drive the direction of the project. *That* will drive people away from the project more than anything. What's next, we've got a vocal minority who think Beagle and other Mono- based apps are resource hogs and shouldn't be included...so we dump Mono? I know, we've also got a group of people who think sendmail/ postfix (take your pick) is the end-all be-all of MTAs so we should not include an option for the other one. The emacs crowd would rather that vi and joe not be made avaialable, so now we're an emacs only distribution in order to keep the emacs hackers happy? (Yes, reducto ad absurdum, specifically to make a point). Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 July 2009 22:07:45 Stephan Binner wrote:
10.0: http://i26.tinypic.com/2igghox.png 10.1: http://i28.tinypic.com/30skhf5.png
And ket me also show the screenshot I posted during last project meeting: http://developer.kde.org/~binner/user-desktop-fail.png This thing happens when the user always only wants to click "Next" during installation ("Next" button is always active). How does this popup help the user? Can't it give an recommendation? Or automatically pre-select a desktop once the desktop has reached this point of failure so that he can continue afterwards with "Next" (=additional confirmation)? Bye, Steve -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
* Stephan Binner <beineri@opensuse.org> [01-01-70 11:34]:
On Friday 31 July 2009 22:07:45 Stephan Binner wrote:
10.0: http://i26.tinypic.com/2igghox.png 10.1: http://i28.tinypic.com/30skhf5.png
And ket me also show the screenshot I posted during last project meeting:
http://developer.kde.org/~binner/user-desktop-fail.png
This thing happens when the user always only wants to click "Next" during installation ("Next" button is always active). How does this popup help the user? Can't it give an recommendation? Or automatically pre-select a desktop once the desktop has reached this point of failure so that he can continue afterwards with "Next" (=additional confirmation)?
Perhaps a relatively easy solution would be to alternate top listing every other distro? -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Stephan Binner a écrit :
the user? Can't it give an recommendation?
you could say: "you can choose any option, but you have to choose one, in doubt take Gnome or Kde, you can change this option later" jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
* jdd (kim2) <jdd@dodin.org> [08-02-09 12:06]:
Stephan Binner a écrit :
the user? Can't it give an recommendation?
you could say: "you can choose any option, but you have to choose one, in doubt take Gnome or Kde, you can change this option later"
What? You are now inviting a lengthy discussion on the order of presentation of the two words, "Kde" and "Gnome" :^) -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-07-31 at 16:44 +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
I'm just brainstorming loud below, perhaps somebody else gets a great idea: For example, we can also change the wording on the desktop selection dialog. * Saying "openSUSE strives to have the best GNOME and KDE desktops" doesn't sound helpful. * We say right now "As desktop selection is a matter of taste, we do not give a recommendation.". What about "Desktop selection is a matter of taste - and GNOME and KDE are both first-class desktops in openSUSE. Right now two thirds of our users prefer KDE and a quarter GNOME"?
That would look appropriate to me. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpzf9oACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Vu5wCgge0+mxVUGIUJf3xv9f2Bc2P3 dD4AnAk7pfd/6lPxYmIDhYsUq5qo8RGI =xG3c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 July 2009 09:44:37 am Andreas Jaeger wrote:
What about "Desktop selection is a matter of taste - and GNOME and KDE are both first-class desktops in openSUSE. Right now two thirds of our users prefer KDE and a quarter GNOME"?
This would be politically correct, and make choice easier. -- Regards, Rajko http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Andreas Jaeger <aj@novell.com> writes:
On Friday 31 July 2009 15:23:17 Lubos Lunak wrote:
[...] It could. I have already heard from people how SUSE used to be a great KDE distro and then Novell pushed GNOME and whatever and they went elsewhere. And SUSE used to be an outstanding KDE distribution and I think it still is, it's just that we ourselves (=SUSE) don't seem to point that out recently.
But openSUSE is also a great GNOME distribution - how can we point out properly that openSUSE has both?
We could make down-sized screenshots as buttons to choose from, side by side --- or a mosaic of several of them. That would make it simpler for users to decide. In an installed system these screenshots could also provide a link to the project home page, so you can make a better informed decision if you want to change things. Btw I think small screenshots and a link to the project home page would be a way cool thing in a package manager anyway, but that's another story. If we go down such a route, openSUSE as a distribution becomes a platform for all major desktops. The supporters of each desktop elect a representative screenshot by a specific date (e.g. beta4). That's what goes in. And then the users 'vote'. Btw, do we gather information on what's actually been used? One of the numbers in Michaels post was a 2:1 split KDE:GNOME in 11.1. That means to make 2/3 of the users a tad happyer, we make 1/3 of the users feel second class. I doubt setting a default will really help to grow the openSUSE user base or Linux growth in general. I'd focus on making decisions simpler. S. -- Susanne Oberhauser +49-911-74053-574 SUSE -- a Novell Business OPS Engineering Maxfeldstraße 5 Processes and Infrastructure Nürnberg SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Susanne Oberhauser<froh@novell.com> wrote:
I'd focus on making decisions simpler.
+1 Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Fredag den 31. juli 2009 16:05:05 skrev Susanne Oberhauser:
We could make down-sized screenshots as buttons to choose from, side by side --- or a mosaic of several of them.
That would make it simpler for users to decide.
Screenshots don't tell users which desktop is easier to get help/support for, has been tested by the most people, has the best level of 3rd party package support etc. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Martin Schlander <martin.schlander@gmail.com> writes:
Fredag den 31. juli 2009 16:05:05 skrev Susanne Oberhauser:
We could make down-sized screenshots as buttons to choose from, side by side --- or a mosaic of several of them.
That would make it simpler for users to decide.
Screenshots don't tell users which desktop is easier to get help/support for, has been tested by the most people, has the best level of 3rd party package support etc.
Do I sense a hidden claim that one of the two has better technology or a better community than the other? To my understanding the the two communities have grown enough mutual respect to see theit coexistence as a happy coopetition, a fun technology race. If that is true, it's more than reasonable to leave the choice open. I hate if large coorporations use their influences to try to gain market share not based on superior technology or better services but just by taking side influence or using pure power. "We are larger, you go with us." Sounds strange to me. btw, just you know, I'm using KDE for ages, I like it and I see no reason to switch. That said I just realized how much I'm invested in this really minor minor discussion --- I believe we have more relevant things to fix ;) My .02 EUR S. -- Susanne Oberhauser +49-911-74053-574 SUSE -- a Novell Business OPS Engineering Maxfeldstraße 5 Processes and Infrastructure Nürnberg SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Lørdag den 1. august 2009 01:21:26 skrev Susanne Oberhauser:
Martin Schlander <martin.schlander@gmail.com> writes:
Fredag den 31. juli 2009 16:05:05 skrev Susanne Oberhauser:
We could make down-sized screenshots as buttons to choose from, side by side --- or a mosaic of several of them.
That would make it simpler for users to decide.
Screenshots don't tell users which desktop is easier to get help/support for, has been tested by the most people, has the best level of 3rd party package support etc.
Do I sense a hidden claim that one of the two has better technology or a better community than the other?
To my understanding the the two communities have grown enough mutual respect to see theit coexistence as a happy coopetition, a fun technology race.
All I tried to say is that within the openSUSE community KDE is much stronger, therefore a new user who doesn't know anything, is likely to have a better overall experience with KDE. - easier to get help - better "Packman-support" - more documentation, howtos, forum answers, etc. - tested by more people etc. I don't think bringing a discussion about the best technology into things would help ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
From: Susanne Oberhauser [mailto:froh@novell.com] Andreas Jaeger <aj@novell.com> writes:
On Friday 31 July 2009 15:23:17 Lubos Lunak wrote:
[...] It could. I have already heard from people how SUSE used to be a great KDE distro and then Novell pushed GNOME and whatever and they went elsewhere. And SUSE used to be an outstanding KDE distribution and I think it still is, it's just that we ourselves (=SUSE) don't seem to point that out recently.
But openSUSE is also a great GNOME distribution - how can we point out properly that openSUSE has both?
We could make down-sized screenshots as buttons to choose from, side by side --- or a mosaic of several of them.
That would make it simpler for users to decide.
I don't agree as it depends upon newbies recognising something they haven't seen before or deciding based upon something irrelevant - but it's a good reminder for 2nd timers and prettier.
In an installed system these screenshots could also provide a link to the project home page, so you can make a better informed decision if you want to change things.
Btw I think small screenshots and a link to the project home page would be a way cool thing in a package manager anyway, but that's another story.
Can I suggest either requesting that the project home page puts up a page saying what the package is for and how it is better than the alternatives, or that openSuSE creates a 'help' page for such choices which highlights the major differences between the choices. Most newbies to Linux would find the current explanations of the differences and advantages very confusing.
If we go down such a route, openSUSE as a distribution becomes a platform for all major desktops.
The supporters of each desktop elect a representative screenshot by a specific date (e.g. beta4). That's what goes in. <snip> I doubt setting a default will really help to grow the openSUSE user base or Linux growth in general.
I agree
I'd focus on making decisions simpler.
I agree - by providing easily digestible relevant information. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009, Susanne Oberhauser wrote:
Andreas Jaeger <aj@novell.com> writes:
On Friday 31 July 2009 15:23:17 Lubos Lunak wrote:
It could. I have already heard from people how SUSE used to be a great KDE distro and then Novell pushed GNOME and whatever and they went elsewhere. And SUSE used to be an outstanding KDE distribution and I think it still is, it's just that we ourselves (=SUSE) don't seem to point that out recently.
But openSUSE is also a great GNOME distribution - how can we point out properly that openSUSE has both?
We could make down-sized screenshots as buttons to choose from, side by side --- or a mosaic of several of them.
In an installed system these screenshots could also provide a link to the project home page, so you can make a better informed decision if you want to change things.
That would make it simpler for users to decide.
As pointed out in the past, screen shots really do not represent the desktop very well. But I really like your added idea of having a link to the various camps. Maybe something along the lines of For more information about GNOME .... For more information about KDE ....
Btw I think small screenshots and a link to the project home page would be a way cool thing in a package manager anyway, but that's another story.
+1 -- Boyd Gerber <gerberb@zenez.com> 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009, Susanne Oberhauser wrote:
That means to make 2/3 of the users a tad happyer, we make 1/3 of the users feel second class.
I doubt setting a default will really help to grow the openSUSE user base or Linux growth in general.
I'd focus on making decisions simpler.
The argument has been made, for SLED and also in some discussions related to this openFATE request, that having this kind of choice is confusing and makes openSUSE (or Linux) look worse for what Zonker referred to as the huge untapped market. As a result SLED does not provide this kind of choice any more. I am not suggesting to make this change for openSUSE (regardless of what the default would be), but it is a valid point. In the absence of such a move, indeed making the decision easier is the second best option from this perspective. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management F +49(911)74053-483 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances GF Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Lubos Lunak<l.lunak@suse.cz> wrote:
On Friday 31 of July 2009, Michael Loeffler wrote:
- we simplify the installation by one click for 2/3 of our users, according to question no. 11 in our last openSUSE survey [3] made in 11.0 time frame I'm not aware of any other major distribution requiring this kind of decision during their installation - is there one?
It's been a while since I installed any other distros, but the "major" distros, we're probably unique here. However - if we want to go down this route, shall we remove all other dialogs and choices that aren't found in other installers?
Some other observations I have with respect about this feature: - inviting people through blogs, web pages, mailing lists or twitter to vote has potential to set the credibility of the voting system at risk as people not involved with openSUSE or not using openSUSE express their thoughts
:-/ ... no way to prevent that, though, and where does one set the limit of who still is worthy voting and who is not?
Sure there is. I'm not convinced that voting should be open to any and all. We had a jump in registered users following this feature of more than 200 users, which means to me a bunch of people who may not have had an interest in participating in openSUSE decision making have suddenly taken an interest in one feature. Now -- if this means we have >200 potential contributors who are going to remain involved, great! If it means we have >200 people who just want to say "+1 KDE" and then go back to being not involved, not so good.
- the feature shows the success of opening up the openSUSE project. Few years ago decisions were made by Novell and nowadays decisions are challenged by our community.
If this feature gets approved, it would certainly show that openSUSE is really open and not just something that Novell fully controls.
Novell does want the project to be "really open" and I don't believe it would stand in the way of this feature. But, that doesn't make this something wise to do just to demonstrate that the project can go in a different direction than Novell. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 July 2009 15:53:07 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Lubos Lunak<l.lunak@suse.cz> wrote:
On Friday 31 of July 2009, Michael Loeffler wrote:
- we simplify the installation by one click for 2/3 of our users, according to question no. 11 in our last openSUSE survey [3] made in 11.0 time frame
I'm not aware of any other major distribution requiring this kind of decision during their installation - is there one?
It's been a while since I installed any other distros, but the "major" distros, we're probably unique here.
However - if we want to go down this route, shall we remove all other dialogs and choices that aren't found in other installers?
reductio ad adsurdum and actually the opposite of what is being suggested - you says we should remove all distinguishing features when actually defaulting to KDE would give us a huge distinguishing feature.
Some other observations I have with respect about this feature: - inviting people through blogs, web pages, mailing lists or twitter to vote has potential to set the credibility of the voting system at risk as people not involved with openSUSE or not using openSUSE express their thoughts
:-/ ... no way to prevent that, though, and where does one set the limit of who still is worthy voting and who is not?
Sure there is. I'm not convinced that voting should be open to any and all.
We had a jump in registered users following this feature of more than 200 users, which means to me a bunch of people who may not have had an interest in participating in openSUSE decision making have suddenly taken an interest in one feature.
Now -- if this means we have >200 potential contribnailing our colouutors who are going to remain involved, great! If it means we have >200 people who just want to say "+1 KDE" and then go back to being not involved, not so good.
This is speculation, to which I hold up 2 counterpoints: * If the vote did not require registration you would have a point. Normally it's hard enough to get upstream people to join on bugzilla.novell.com bug reports or register at the build service to be able to use osc to check out our patches, because of the dreaded 'Novell Account'. This is well-known. * You neglect another possibility between the binary alternatives of 200 opensuse contributors and 200 KDE fanbois voting. What if some of those 200 votes were existing openSUSE users who have not bothered to participate thus far, but now have been shown an issue which they really care about. For a lot of users the desktop is the distro and actually hoisting a flag may empower existing users to become active contributors. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Will Stephenson<wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
For a lot of users the desktop is the distro and actually hoisting a flag may empower existing users to become active contributors.
I think you're confusing "empower" with "validate their choice of desktop." The tools, processes, and policies won't change. Existing users and developers are "empowered" to contribute already -- if they aren't, toggling the default won't change that. What you're asking for is that the project fly the KDE colors a bit higher in the hope that will motivate more users to contribute. Maybe that will work, maybe it won't, but at least be clear in what you're asking. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 July 2009 16:32:57 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Will Stephenson<wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
For a lot of users the desktop is the distro and actually hoisting a flag may empower existing users to become active contributors.
I think you're confusing "empower" with "validate their choice of desktop."
I think you understand the sentiment - call it "Encourage to participate by validating their choice of desktop and giving them greater identification with openSUSE". Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Will Stephenson<wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
On Friday 31 July 2009 16:32:57 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Will Stephenson<wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
For a lot of users the desktop is the distro and actually hoisting a flag may empower existing users to become active contributors.
I think you're confusing "empower" with "validate their choice of desktop."
I think you understand the sentiment - call it "Encourage to participate by validating their choice of desktop and giving them greater identification with openSUSE".
I do - so let's not confuse things. Our users and contributors are "empowered" now. I see no reason to *invalidate our GNOME users choice of desktop and *discourage their participation. I'm sure you mean the best here Will, by wanting to send a pro-KDE signal - but at the same time, it's an anti-GNOME signal, and I really don't think that fits well. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Will Stephenson<wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
However - if we want to go down this route, shall we remove all other dialogs and choices that aren't found in other installers?
reductio ad adsurdum and actually the opposite of what is being suggested - you says we should remove all distinguishing features when actually defaulting to KDE would give us a huge distinguishing feature.
Again, it's not a "huge distinguishing feature." It's a radio button that's pre-selected. If Ubuntu shipped GNOME + KDE on the same disc, and simply pre-selected the GNOME choice, would you call that a "distinguishing feature"? You're suggesting that making a choice for the user is a distinguishing feature. OK - then let's make all the choices, and be really distinguished! Or, let's be *about choice and distinguish ourselves that way. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 July 2009 16:37:53 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Will Stephenson<wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
However - if we want to go down this route, shall we remove all other dialogs and choices that aren't found in other installers?
reductio ad adsurdum and actually the opposite of what is being suggested - you says we should remove all distinguishing features when actually defaulting to KDE would give us a huge distinguishing feature.
Again, it's not a "huge distinguishing feature." It's a radio button that's pre-selected.
If Ubuntu shipped GNOME + KDE on the same disc, and simply pre-selected the GNOME choice, would you call that a "distinguishing feature"?
You're suggesting that making a choice for the user is a distinguishing feature. OK - then let's make all the choices, and be really distinguished! Or, let's be *about choice and distinguish ourselves that way.
Choosing a default and being about choice are not opposites. And I don't think the "being about choice" message has gotten through. Don't diminish the significance of the statement that makes. Think back to the uproar the GNOME default on SLED selection made, which continues to be extended to openSUSE in the "all the major distributions default to GNOME" comments all over the internet. This is a chance for openSUSE to stand out, play to its users' preferences, and win more users and developers. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-07-31 at 16:57 +0200, Will Stephenson wrote:
On Friday 31 July 2009 16:37:53 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote: ...
You're suggesting that making a choice for the user is a distinguishing feature. OK - then let's make all the choices, and be really distinguished! Or, let's be *about choice and distinguish ourselves that way.
Choosing a default and being about choice are not opposites. And I don't think the "being about choice" message has gotten through.
Don't diminish the significance of the statement that makes. Think back to the uproar the GNOME default on SLED selection made, which continues to be extended to openSUSE in the "all the major distributions default to GNOME" comments all over the internet. This is a chance for openSUSE to stand out, play to its users' preferences, and win more users and developers.
Don't confuse SLED with openSUSE. I've no idea what SLED does, I don't use it. I can't even influence it in any way. This is openSUSE, not SLES/SLED. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp0BbUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U1wwCeNr7VCqnzuENkCtJMZAvtnG6j K6UAn2v8ShhAGrABvEB0Nj4kvRokcqDJ =zUpf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-07-31 at 09:53 -0400, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Lubos Lunak<> wrote:
On Friday 31 of July 2009, Michael Loeffler wrote:
:-/ ... no way to prevent that, though, and where does one set the limit of who still is worthy voting and who is not?
Sure there is. I'm not convinced that voting should be open to any and all.
We had a jump in registered users following this feature of more than 200 users, which means to me a bunch of people who may not have had an interest in participating in openSUSE decision making have suddenly taken an interest in one feature.
Indeed :-(
Now -- if this means we have >200 potential contributors who are going to remain involved, great! If it means we have >200 people who just want to say "+1 KDE" and then go back to being not involved, not so good.
So, if the majority someday decides to drop xfce for 11.3, and later gnome for 14.0, it will be done?
- the feature shows the success of opening up the openSUSE project. Few years ago decisions were made by Novell and nowadays decisions are challenged by our community.
If this feature gets approved, it would certainly show that openSUSE is really open and not just something that Novell fully controls.
Novell does want the project to be "really open" and I don't believe it would stand in the way of this feature. But, that doesn't make this something wise to do just to demonstrate that the project can go in a different direction than Novell.
Indeed... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp0pUsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XmuACfe2kJjXI+3zLrJPjM6YDb2iL+ TaUAn1O0uxBJY1E7fi5ExJkNbGbRxL1o =Y1Jw -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
So, if the majority someday decides to drop xfce for 11.3, and later gnome for 14.0, it will be done?
It depends. If any desktop is used by < 0.1% of openSUSE installations, we should seriously consider dropping it from the default ISOs, though of course developers/users would be more than welcome to maintain it in the openSUSE Build Service and make it available from there. (Don't get hung on the 0.1% number, please. There is no hard rule, I am just using this as a plausible example. And "we" refers to the openSUSE community.) We certainly should not drop a desktop environment which a significant number of our users run; that would hurt the overall project badly and I hope^Wbelieve this is nobody's intention here. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management F +49(911)74053-483 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances GF Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-08-02 at 00:50 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
So, if the majority someday decides to drop xfce for 11.3, and later gnome for 14.0, it will be done?
It depends. If any desktop is used by < 0.1% of openSUSE installations, we should seriously consider dropping it from the default ISOs, though of course developers/users would be more than welcome to maintain it in the openSUSE Build Service and make it available from there.
That's the logical decision.
(Don't get hung on the 0.1% number, please. There is no hard rule, I am just using this as a plausible example. And "we" refers to the openSUSE community.)
We certainly should not drop a desktop environment which a significant number of our users run; that would hurt the overall project badly and I hope^Wbelieve this is nobody's intention here.
Obviously. But my point is (expanding on what Zonker said), that if the majority wants something like that, even if it is illogical, would we do it? Where is the limit? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp0y3kACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V+sgCffcy9iMSeRO6mr9c0hpO177B7 cOsAn3GEGs2kNeXXxjSUkd7mE0kLXIs+ =9Yxy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Obviously. But my point is (expanding on what Zonker said), that if the majority wants something like that, even if it is illogical, would we do it? Where is the limit?
You seem to suggest that aknowledging that something is a clear preference and preselecting is illogical - in that case, the whole rest of openSUSE is illogical. But there is an easy solution to this - see my other mail and present a guideline that can be used to resolve this and any similar future problem, without mentioning GNOME or KDE in it. If you think the current situation is logical, you should have absolutely no problem with that. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 8:06 AM, Michael Loeffler<michl@novell.com> wrote:
There are pretty many pros and cons and even more people with their opinion about the feature
Indeed. :-) Here's my opinion -- also published on my blog here: http://www.dissociatedpress.net/2009/07/31/does-opensuse-need-a-default-desk... (Note -- this is my opinion, which is why it's on my personal blog + not on Spotlight...) The most popular feature in openFATE[1] (at least of this writing) is a proposal from KDE e.V. member Frank Karlitschek to make KDE the "default" in openSUSE. Michael Loeffler has also blogged about this[2] and put it on the opensuse-project mailing list. A couple of arguments have been given in favor of this proposal, but none that are particularly compelling. Let's look at some of the reasons that have been put forward by Frank: * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution. * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution. Confusing? ========== The first point, that it's "confusing for new Linux users," has some merit -- choice means having to think about the relative merits of the options put forward, and since most new Linux users don't have a lot of information to decide it probably _is_ **mildly_ _**confusing. But limiting choice, in my opinion, isn't the best option -- the best option here is to _do a better job_ at informing new users. Or, perhaps, encouraging new users to grab a live CD instead of the DVD and _test drive both_ before making a decision. The next point, that this would be a "unique selling point," because Fedora and Ubuntu don't provide a default KDE desktop is not convincing at all. We have a "unique selling point," now -- which is we offer two outstanding desktop environments to choose from at install time. (And, of course, Xfce and other Window Managers if you delve a bit deeper…) And of course, there's Kubuntu -- which provides KDE as its default. So, how unique would we be again? **For me, our selling point is choice:** Come for GNOME, come for KDE, we have both, plus Xfce, and a whole slew of other great software (like YaST, Zypper, etc.) and project tools (the openSUSE Build Service). More developers, really? Promise? ================================= Point three (attract more developers) is sort of the main point of interest for me. We all want to see more contributors to openSUSE, so _if _this was likely to attract more developers, it might be worth considering. But why would this attract more KDE developers? Apparently because we'd be sending a political statement that we put KDE above GNOME. Nothing would change, technically -- we'd just be giving the KDE option a bit more oomph. This doesn't make openSUSE's KDE any better in and of itself. It doesn't provide any technical tools that make openSUSE better for developers. openSUSE is _already_ a "nice distribution to develop on." We're extremely KDE-friendly, we have a great KDE implementation, and we have the openSUSE Build Service. Thanks to our existing KDE community, we're one of the first distros to have KDE packages (damn good ones) following each KDE release that are dead-easy to install on the testing distro and on the stable releases. I'm not knocking the other distros here -- just saying, it seems to me that all of the components for a great KDE distro already exist in openSUSE -- minus the political flag that says "we like KDE better than GNOME, we recommend KDE over GNOME" or whatever. The flip side of that is -- will we lose GNOME developers (or other developers who work on other tools but prefer the GNOME desktop) because of this statement? I think that's likely. Which brings me to the final point: Increase popularity of openSUSE in KDE user community? ====================================================== This may be the case. If we make KDE our "default," it might well inspire some brand loyalty to openSUSE amongst KDE users. Again - what's been proposed doesn't make our KDE better (or worse) it just means that the project has decided to recommend one above the other. openSUSE has been extremely supportive of the KDE user community. We're shipping two KDE desktops in 11.1 (and 11.0 before it) because we wanted to provide the right desktop for our KDE users who wanted the "classic" KDE or the new KDE. That wasn't something that many other distros did. Actually, I don't know of any other distros shipping both releases at the same time, but with so many distros out there… let's just say none of the "major" distros have taken this path. The second half, though, is what I disagree with most strongly: "_negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution_." The impact on the overall GNOME community may not be that great. The impact on the openSUSE GNOME community, though, is not going to be good. How many of our contributors are going to feel alienated because their platform of choice has been downgraded to second choice? How many users will choose Ubuntu because we're signaling that GNOME is (ever so slightly) less important to us. If this is of great importance to KDE developers and users that we choose one over the other, then the logical assumption is there's going to be equal backlash from GNOME developers and users at being the second choice. Granted -- there's no real change in the quality or availability of the desktops in either case -- it's the political signal that we prefer one over the other. Sometimes a political signal is a good thing. Given two equal choices, I'll shop at or patronize businesses that signal (for instance) that they're politically progressive, or that they support the environment, etc. If the issue was merely sending a pro-KDE message, I'd be quite in favor. But it's not neutral to GNOME (in my opinion) because we're effectively choosing one over the other -- even if that's not the spirit in which it's intended (and I like to think that Frank is trying to send a pro-KDE message, not an anti-GNOME message), I'm concerned that it will be interpreted wrongly. I appreciate the desire to make openSUSE a welcome home for KDE developers and users. I just think we could find a better way to accomplish it. [1]: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html [2]: http://lizards.opensuse.org/2009/07/31/openfate-feature-306967-kde-default/ -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 of July 2009, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
The first point, that it's "confusing for new Linux users," has some merit -- choice means having to think about the relative merits of the options put forward, and since most new Linux users don't have a lot of information to decide it probably _is_ **mildly_ _**confusing. But limiting choice, in my opinion, isn't the best option
You misread the proposal. This is not about limiting the choice, this is about preselecting one of the radio buttons in the desktop selection page during installation. Preselecting a radio button is not forbidding the selection of the others.
-- the best option here is to _do a better job_ at informing new users. Or, perhaps, encouraging new users to grab a live CD instead of the DVD and _test drive both_ before making a decision.
Sorry, but this is naive. If you give those users something that will explain to them what KDE and GNOME are and how to choose, they will probably just shrug and do with a distribution that doesn't force them to do this (all but openSUSE, incidentally). Or they will just select what is first in the list.
The next point, that this would be a "unique selling point," because Fedora and Ubuntu don't provide a default KDE desktop is not convincing at all. We have a "unique selling point," now -- which is we offer two outstanding desktop environments to choose from at install time. (And, of course, Xfce and other Window Managers if you delve a bit deeper…)
This is not unique. Fedora installation offers to install KDE too, for example. The only thing that is unique about us is that we force the decision on the user, regardless of whether they want to choose or just want to use openSUSE. We also do not force the decision of whether the CLI editor will be Vi or Emacs.
And of course, there's Kubuntu -- which provides KDE as its default.
Google for 'Kubuntu stepchild', or any other similar term that will show you what many people think about how Kubuntu is not Ubuntu but only some kind of add-on.
**For me, our selling point is choice:** Come for GNOME, come for KDE, we have both, plus Xfce, and a whole slew of other great software (like YaST, Zypper, etc.) and project tools (the openSUSE Build Service).
And we keep the choice. But we cannot be 100% fair anyway. GNOME is now higher, so it gets pretty much all of the undecided votes. So we made a choice there anyway, it's just more annoying for the user and it doesn't represent the preference of the user base. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 084 672 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hello, 2009-07-31 16:54 keltezéssel, Lubos Lunak írta:
On Friday 31 of July 2009, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
The first point, that it's "confusing for new Linux users," has some merit -- choice means having to think about the relative merits of the options put forward, and since most new Linux users don't have a lot of information to decide it probably _is_ **mildly_ _**confusing. But limiting choice, in my opinion, isn't the best option
You misread the proposal. This is not about limiting the choice, this is about preselecting one of the radio buttons in the desktop selection page during installation. Preselecting a radio button is not forbidding the selection of the others.
I'm am (mostly) an XFCE user, still I'd enable that radio button in front of KDE. - this is what a large majority of openSUSE users use, so there is a better chance, that one can help with KDE than with GNOME (or XFCE) - I often get the feedback from those, who install openSUSE for the first time, that a default should be set, so installation is easier for those, who are not familiar with the desktops. And because of my first point I'd suppose, that KDE is a far better default choice. - some of my friends are KDE fans, who left SuSE to Kubuntu (!), for them the no default choice meant, that SuSE is no more KDE centric as was before. Bye, CzP -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-07-31 at 16:54 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
This is not unique. Fedora installation offers to install KDE too, for example. The only thing that is unique about us is that we force the decision on the user, regardless of whether they want to choose or just want to use openSUSE. We also do not force the decision of whether the CLI editor will be Vi or Emacs.
Really? I don't remember being asked during installation about what CLI editor I prefer - which is JOE. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp0B0EACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XR0ACfXsZmJs/P/KgWgpI/yN9VnsVR J8gAniz5AFeZv4/fsz304HV7stlA400K =ZF70 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hello, 2009-08-01 11:13 keltezéssel, Carlos E. R. írta:
Really? I don't remember being asked during installation about what CLI editor I prefer - which is JOE. I also use Joe (and it is the first sw I install on FreeBSD/Debian/*Ubuntu/etc.), but I'm glad, that vi is the default, as it is also there on any other Linux/Unix machines I use, except for Gentoo, so I can count on its presence... Bye, CzP -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 01 of August 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Friday, 2009-07-31 at 16:54 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:
This is not unique. Fedora installation offers to install KDE too, for example. The only thing that is unique about us is that we force the decision on the user, regardless of whether they want to choose or just want to use openSUSE. We also do not force the decision of whether the CLI editor will be Vi or Emacs.
Really? I don't remember being asked during installation about what CLI editor I prefer - which is JOE.
"We also do not force the user to make the decision of whether the CLI editor will be Vi or Emacs." , if the original was ambiguous. Nor should we. Anywhere. Nor anybody else does. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-07-31 at 09:43 -0400, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 8:06 AM, Michael Loeffler<michl@novell.com> wrote:
There are pretty many pros and cons and even more people with their opinion about the feature
Indeed. :-)
Here's my opinion -- also published on my blog here:
I agree completely. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkp0Bi4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WonACeLOO2BOc9f/KwI9OMl7td7KSe qcQAn03MaAH1efcZSJGVMbqNfLmlwyes =60U0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 of July 2009, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
**For me, our selling point is choice:** Come for GNOME, come for KDE, we have both, plus Xfce, and a whole slew of other great software (like YaST, Zypper, etc.) and project tools (the openSUSE Build Service).
I think that in that case this should be somehow justified and summed up as guidelines for the next time we run into a similar issue, as this is an exception to the common practice and it is likely to turn up again somewhere else. Nowhere else do we or anybody else require such a choice to be made, as it would be just insane to ask the user about everything, so it would be useful to know when such exceptions are made. Take the web browser as an example. The default web browser for 11.2 is Firefox, both in GNOME and KDE (see below). However, with Linux being just a minor market to Firefox compared to Windows and the rise of the WebKit rendering engine, it is not unrealistic that in a foreseeable future another web browser would start taking Firefox's share, possibly even surpassing it and making it a minor browser. Let's assume for a while that it would be an open-source version of Google's Chrome, for simplicity. Currently we have Firefox as the clear default and we do not even offer a choice in any prominent place. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but if one day Chrome has 90% users and Firefox 9%, it would be clearly very stupid to still keep Firefox as the default without any easy way to change it. And as a web browser is a very important component to many users, with many services being web-based for some even more important than the desktop, we should somewhen on the way switch and/or provide a choice. Now, how should that be? According to what we have now with desktops, we should offer a choice to use Chrome as soon as it gets at least somewhat significant user base, and after it exceeding about 25%, we should present a page during installation where there is nothing preselected and the user must choose. Would we really do that? It looks absurd to me and there would be certainly a controversy about that too, but since we already have a very similar one now, maybe we could sort it out now and save us from having to go through that again in the future. The web browser makes a very nice example, but it's possible there would be other issues in the future with no clear preference. And this doesn't even need to be a future, as we have a very similar issue in KDE right now for 11.2. The default browser on KDE was always a bit schizophrenic, with the choice of either using the Firefox icon on the desktop, or the Konqueror icon in the panel, or Konqueror launching when clicking links in other applications. No clear choice, just like with the desktop selection, and it was considered confusing, so the decision done the last KDE community meeting was to make Firefox the default everywhere. And there was also some controversy for this decision. Some users prefer Konqueror for its KDE integration and it works for them, and those preferring Firefox could already choose it using the desktop icon. It is a decision that can affect many users, with KDE having the majority of users. Upstream KDE can also interpret it as a political message, with openSUSE disrespecting KDE once again, and we may lose more users because of the perceived negativity. So maybe it would be safer to revert this back or require the user to make a choice. Therefore, since a similar discussion is going on here anyway, it might be simpler and safer for us to take the conclusion made here and apply it too. Having this as a clearly decided policy and not just a random ad-hoc decision would avoid or at least minimize the problem that some would consider it a political decision and reduce the damage that is bound to happen as a result of this, no matter what the decision is. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, Here are some quick random thoughts on this. I might have more thoughts later. Disclamer: I'm of course biased on this topic, but I think those thoughts are at least not strongly biased (and hopefully, unbiased ;-)). Le vendredi 31 juillet 2009, à 14:06 +0200, Michael Loeffler a écrit :
So what do we have so far? - a feature request [1] from one of the KDE e.V. board members - the feature asks to make KDE default. Reason for that, is to make openSUSE more simple for newbies and to make openSUSE the best KDE distribution around - Through the discussion in the feature I'd translate that feature into put the radio button as default to KDE on the desktop selection screen during installation instead of today's status where everybody needs to make a choice between - the highest rated feature in openFATE [2] until today - a majority of people supporting this feature (currently approx. 90% pro, 1% neutral, 9% against)
If we want to consider votes for this (and I'm not convinced we should consider votes for features in general, but I won't enter this debate in this thread -- feel free to start another one if you're interested in discussing this), then we should split the vote in two parts: + should openSUSE have a default desktop? + if openSUSE has a default desktop, which one should it be? (and people should reply to it not as if it was "what do I prefer?" but more as if it was "what do I think will make our project grow?") <biased opinion> My answers would be "ideally, yes; concretely, depends on how it's done so that it doesn't alienate a good part of our community" and "GNOME", fwiw, which can be seen as the opposite of the proposed feature. I could elaborate on why I'd reply GNOME, but this would probably not lead us anywhere useful (except maybe if you enjoy endless GNOME vs KDE threads) ;-) </biased opinion>
What I clearly see as pro is: - listening to our KDE community we may gain more KDE contributors. But don't forget this feature is also about making openSUSE an outstanding KDE distribution. And for that just voting for a feature is not enough. For becoming an outstanding KDE distribution we need you to contribute
(So, hrm, yeah, but this is valid for GNOME/XFCE/LXDE/etc. too ;-))
- we simplify the installation by one click for 2/3 of our users, according to question no. 11 in our last openSUSE survey [3] made in 11.0 time frame
Btw, I think https://features.opensuse.org/305877 would help us get more detailed information about the users for cases like this.
- the GNOME users keep status quo and need to set the radio button as before
<biased opinion> Not really a pro item. It sounds more like a neutral one. </biased opinion>
What I clearly see as con is: - our pretty active GNOME community won't be very happy about it - our strength is to support choice and two major desktops - with the CD you always get a default desktop
What might stay doubtful? - Would changing a radio button really drive lots of users and contributors to us? - Would already KDE as a default make us to an outstanding KDE distribution? - Does openSUSE need a default desktop?
To really decide on what to do here, I think we have to ask ourselves what is the goal of the openSUSE distribution. Here are some ideas of what it could be (they are not all incompatible with each other, btw, but knowing which one is what we want to do helps with decisions): a) be the best distribution for first-time users of a GNU/Linux distribution? => this is relevant in this topic since that person won't know what GNOME or KDE is, and a default is necessary. I would even say it doesn't make sense to have a page in the installer asking the question of which desktop should be installed... b) be the best distribution for users at least a bit familiar with the free software world => in this case, asking for GNOME or KDE can be acceptable (would still be better to not ask, IMHO), but a default could be nice. c) be a bleeding-edge distribution => probably requires familiarity with the free software world (like b, or more?) d) be the best distribution for X users (where X can be KDE, GNOME, but also Apache, Postgresql, etc.) => decision could be straight-forward e) etc. I guess it's not really option d or e. In your list of cons, you said "our strength is to support choice and two major desktops", so it would position us in b. Then, there's also the question of how will it affect our community? Eg, just removing the page in the installer and choosing KDE by default will probably just make people of the GNOME team go away. Preselecting an option in this page would probably not lead to this result, but might still affect a team in some way (or maybe it won't have any bad effect). Finally, communication is important. If the decision is communicated as a some kind of political (X is better than Y) or technical (X is better integrated in openSUSE thany Y) statement, then this will certainly harm part of the community. The only way to communicate this that makes sense to me is to say that this makes things easier for our users. (And also to do it in a way that doesn't imply the other solution is not good or is not well integrated) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 31 July 2009 16:53:38 Vincent Untz wrote:
Finally, communication is important. If the decision is communicated as a some kind of political (X is better than Y) or technical (X is better integrated in openSUSE thany Y) statement, then this will certainly harm part of the community. The only way to communicate this that makes sense to me is to say that this makes things easier for our users. (And also to do it in a way that doesn't imply the other solution is not good or is not well integrated)
+1 (I'm all typed out for now) Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Perhaps this may be a constructive way to help the user. I have posed high to possibly start on a real change to help all users when in come to the actual Installation of our product(s)??!! https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=527405 I would normally add it to the Feature in Fate, buy every time I try to save a new change to the feature I just get a "Status: 500 Internal Server Error Content-Type: text/html 500 Internal Server Error" which I have notified to netadmin Scott Michael Loeffler wrote:
There are pretty many pros and cons and even more people with their opinion
about the feature [1]I'd like to summarize what has been said in the
discussion in the feature itself and during this week's openSUSE project
meeting. Unfortunately the only sure thing is whatever decision is taken - it
will be wrong for some. This is why, at this time, we have no default -
because openSUSE has strong GNOME and KDE implementations, we offer them
side-by-side as equals. And we made 2 years ago on opensuse-project the
decision that we stay with "no default" desktop.
So what do we have so far?
- a feature request [1] from one of the KDE e.V. board members
- the feature asks to make KDE default. Reason for that, is to make openSUSE
more simple for newbies and to make openSUSE the best KDE distribution around
- Through the discussion in the feature I'd translate that feature into put
the radio button as default to KDE on the desktop selection screen during
installation instead of today's status where everybody needs to make a choice
between
- the highest rated feature in openFATE [2] until today
- a majority of people supporting this feature (currently approx. 90% pro, 1%
neutral, 9% against)
What I clearly see as pro is:
- listening to our KDE community we may gain more KDE contributors. But don't
forget this feature is also about making openSUSE an outstanding KDE
distribution. And for that just voting for a feature is not enough. For
becoming an outstanding KDE distribution we need you to contribute
- we simplify the installation by one click for 2/3 of our users, according to
question no. 11 in our last openSUSE survey [3] made in 11.0 time frame
- the GNOME users keep status quo and need to set the radio button as before
What I clearly see as con is:
- our pretty active GNOME community won't be very happy about it
- our strength is to support choice and two major desktops
- with the CD you always get a default desktop
What might stay doubtful?
- Would changing a radio button really drive lots of users and contributors to
us?
- Would already KDE as a default make us to an outstanding KDE distribution?
- Does openSUSE need a default desktop?
What I suggest?
Due to upcoming feature freeze for openSUSE 11.2 we have only the possibility
to default the radio button to KDE. But this is IMO more a diplomatic solution
which doesn't help much anybody. We should give the feature one or two more
weeks to evolve and need to do the decision for openSUSE 11.2 by mid of
August.
Some other observations I have with respect about this feature:
- inviting people through blogs, web pages, mailing lists or twitter to vote
has potential to set the credibility of the voting system at risk as people
not involved with openSUSE or not using openSUSE express their thoughts
- the feature shows the success of opening up the openSUSE project. Few years
ago decisions were made by Novell and nowadays decisions are challenged by our
community.
- I'm pretty happy about the way the discussion is handled (impartial, no
bashing etc.)
May wisdom be with us - and may we get in openSUSE the best GNOME and the best
KDE desktops!
Best
M
[1] https://features.opensuse.org/306967
[2] https://features.opensuse.org/
[3] http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf
--
Michael Löffler, Product Management
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex
On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 14:06 +0200, Michael Loeffler wrote:
Due to upcoming feature freeze for openSUSE 11.2 we have only the possibility to default the radio button to KDE.
Urk ... so my real concern here - how to get 'Moblin' listed as a third (or more) option in the install page, is made obsolete by a feature freeze ? [ I was really hoping we could get that in there - am I too late ? ]. Then of course, there comes the vexed issue of whether to call it 'Goblin', 'Moblin', and/or "openSUSE / Goblin 2.0 netbook, consumer media edition" (or near offer). Of course, in my mind, this vastly depends on whether we do alpahabetic, or reverse alphabetic sorting in that dialog; I'm ready to consider new names: AAAoblin and ZZZoblin (yawn) ;-) [ missing space for boilerplate, aggressive, logical argumentation - on the relative merits of Moblin vs. Gnome, how exclusion will rob us of our nascent community there, that no-choice is a choice (or is it ?), and so on ad nauseum ;-]. Then again, any Moblin entry should prolly not be shown unless you have Intel graphics so ... perhaps that leads to another interesting idea: Incidentally - one of the really laudable goals in the wish not to have a desktop choice is/was to have one fewer choice during the install flow. While we are there - I was -really- hoping that the keyboard / location / timezone selection stuff [ much as I love the map widget ] could be axed by doing some geo-location magic with the ethernet card. As a highly unhelpful suggestion ;-> - if we have a locale and network by the time the desktop choice is made, we could massively over-engineer the problem: with per-region desktop defaults; pre-region default sorting orders, a per-mac-address server-side, default desktop database, avahi located "default-to-KDE-server" virtual machines lurking on the Lan, local electronic lan / default elections ? - the mind boggles at the possibilities. Lets get coding ... Not-that-seriously, Michael. -- michael.meeks@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Søndag den 2. august 2009 14:13:58 skrev Michael Meeks:
On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 14:06 +0200, Michael Loeffler wrote:
Due to upcoming feature freeze for openSUSE 11.2 we have only the possibility to default the radio button to KDE.
Urk ... so my real concern here - how to get 'Moblin' listed as a third (or more) option in the install page, is made obsolete by a feature freeze ? [ I was really hoping we could get that in there - am I too late ? ].
Imo it should go under "Other". I think the demand is quite possibly even smaller than for Xfce or server installations. If a third "main" option should be added I'd vote for server. I even think most people installing on netbooks actually prefer a proper desktop. Based on the success of Windows XP on netbooks and the number of people I see replacing Xandros or Linpus Lite with other distributions with "normal" interfaces/desktops.
Of course, in my mind, this vastly depends on whether we do alpahabetic, or reverse alphabetic sorting in that dialog; I'm ready to consider new names: AAAoblin and ZZZoblin (yawn) ;-)
Isn't sorting by user base an option? ... That seems to be more or less what everyone else is doing. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 02 August 2009 14:13:58 Michael Meeks wrote:
On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 14:06 +0200, Michael Loeffler wrote:
Due to upcoming feature freeze for openSUSE 11.2 we have only the possibility to default the radio button to KDE.
Urk ... so my real concern here - how to get 'Moblin' listed as a third (or more) option in the install page, is made obsolete by a feature freeze ? [ I was really hoping we could get that in there - am I too late ? ].
You're late - let's get the packages in asap into factory and work with Coolo on creating a pattern for Moblin. And then we can talk about adding it to the selection screen. But please on a different thread;)
Then of course, there comes the vexed issue of whether to call it 'Goblin', 'Moblin', and/or "openSUSE / Goblin 2.0 netbook, consumer media edition" (or near offer).
Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Hello, 2009-08-02 14:13 keltezéssel, Michael Meeks írta:
On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 14:06 +0200, Michael Loeffler wrote:
Due to upcoming feature freeze for openSUSE 11.2 we have only the possibility to default the radio button to KDE.
Urk ... so my real concern here - how to get 'Moblin' listed as a third (or more) option in the install page, is made obsolete by a feature freeze ? [ I was really hoping we could get that in there - am I too late ? ].
Is there any good documentation, how to get started with Moblin on openSUSE (11.1 in my case)? I wanted give it a try on my desktop machine, but it took some time to figure out which packages are needed to get it running. Also I had some mysterious troubles, as glib2 needs to be installed from this repo, but the one in the update repo had higher priority. Once running, it was amazingly fast (core2duo, nVidia graphics), but my first impression was, that it is rather something for 11.3... Bye, CzP -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
participants (39)
-
Administrator -
Alberto Passalacqua -
alpha096＠virginbroadband.com.au -
Andreas Jaeger -
Boyd Lynn Gerber -
Bryen M Yunashko -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos Goncalves -
Christian Jäger -
Cristian Morales Vega -
Gabriel -
Gerald Pfeifer -
jdd (kim2) -
Jim Henderson -
Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier -
Joe Harmon -
Jonathan Ervine -
Juergen Weigert -
Karsten König -
Lubos Lunak -
Luis Medinas -
M Harris -
Martin Schlander -
Matt Gray -
Michael Loeffler -
Michael Meeks -
Patrick Shanahan -
Peter Czanik -
PGNet Dev -
Rajko M. -
Rupert Horstkötter -
Stefan Kunze -
Stephan Binner -
Stephan Kulow -
Susanne Oberhauser -
Sven Burmeister -
Uwe Buckesfeld -
Vincent Untz -
Will Stephenson