Re: [opensuse-project] Re:[opensuse-project]Microsoft’s Patent Pledge for Individual Contributors to openSUSE.org
On 11/18/2006 04:06 PM, Peter Flodin wrote:
So I would say, yes Novell can enter in to agreements in regard to openSUSE.org
Got it. I guess. So this is not true then: On 11/18/2006 10:02 AM, susedevel@torchlighttech.com wrote:
OpenSuSE has no such third party software nor does it have corporate support. If you have problems you have to check out the forums. It'd be REALLY hard for Microsoft to force their patents on OpenSuse mainly because it's open source.
The preamble to "Microsoftâs Patent Pledge for Individual Contributors to openSUSE.org" states:
From time to time, individual developers wish to contribute their authored code to openSUSE.org projects. It is Microsoftâs intent that this pledge be legally binding and enforceable as to such individual contributors according to
I agree that "openSUSE.org" doesn't sound like a legal entity. Is Microsoft talking about people who send electronically transmit code to the IP address that hosts openSUSE.org? What about people who instead submit code to the slightly different Novell IP address that hosts forge.novell.com. Geez, you'd think with all those lawyers they'd be a little more thorough.
Finally the only legal agreement I can find between Novell and independent contributors to OpenSUSE and NovellForge is as follows:
User Submissions
Any material, information or other communication You transmit or post to this
web site (including, but not limited to, ideas, suggestions, feedback, bug identification, content, code, copyrighted materials or materials protected by other intellectual property laws) will be considered non-confidential and non-proprietary communications. Novell will have no obligations with respect to
Let's break this down, or attempt to. With many open source projects, there are developers whom want to contribute to the open source with their code, like many people in this community. Essential, what I am gathering, is that Microsoft won't force their patents on anyone whom wants to contribute to OpenSuSE. Microsoft naturally has patents, and people are concerned that they are going to bring their patents into open source. They will not force their patents onto anyone whom is contributing their developments onto OpenSuSE. We know that with the GPL, microsoft can't assert patents on OpenSuSE the OS, the Patent Pledge is to let us know that they won't attack the individuals whom make OpenSuSE.org possible. It's more to protect MS than us it seems. Since Microsoft is going to be contributing, they will have "patents" on the software they contribute but they are letting us know that they won't impose the same patents on anyone else developing. In the end, we can all do what we've been doing. Microsoft isn't going to make us follow their patents when we do our development. Nothing has changed too much for us. onto that other thing with Novell owning what we say, taht's not it at all. What it is, what is said here, no one owns. So if Novell, or anyone else, decides to take what is said in say a forum and put it in their marketing material, they can. If I decide to write a magazine article containing information from this mailing list, I can. It's like, Open Source for words. I am not into fighting either. Part of me is content with the pact, part of me is not. I am not a fan of MS at all, I've used solely Linux for 2 years now and I am glad I haven't looked back. One thing I wish we had though was the ability to use certain Microsoft software like iTunes or TaxCut on Linux. That's why I am happy about this because of the inter operability issue. I am upset because it's Microsoft. I don't want an OS with a bunch of Microsoft's applications on it. A few, maybe, but not a lot. To a degree, Novell needed to do this in order to help make SuSE more appealing to businesses. That's what SLED and SLES are for, business. OpenSuSE is meant to be like a consumer Linux. Just for the average person. We'll see what happens. Microsoft is also trying to make their own sort of community. On Sat Nov 18 18:22 , Saill White sent: the terms below. the communications. Novell and its designees will be free to copy, disclose, distribute, incorporate and otherwise use the communications and all data, images, sounds, text and other things embodied therein for any and all commercial or non-commercial purposes.
So anything that anyone sends to OpenSUSE or NovellForge immediately becomes the
property of Novell. Novell itself has no special legal relationship with it's contributors. Therefore, I don't understand how Microsoft can purport to have such a relationship through an agreement reached with Novell. Seems like Novell's giving away something that doesn't belong to them.
By the way, I'm not interested in fighting, quite the opposite. The way I see
it, Novell has left Suse in a dark dead-end alley with a mean bully. I'm looking for unlocked doors to escape through.
Pflodo Peter Flodin
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On 11/19/2006 12:04 PM, susedevel@torchlighttech.com wrote:
onto that other thing with Novell owning what we say, taht's not it at all. What it is, what is said here, no one owns. So if Novell, or anyone else, decides to take what is said in say a forum and put it in their marketing material, they can. If I decide to write a magazine article containing information from this mailing list, I can. It's like, Open Source for words.
Actually the Novell User Submissions Policy is for ANYTHING submitted to Novell - list messages, code patches, cute pictures of your pets. Once you send it to Novell, their policy is that they can use it however they like without any attribution to you. In a way this separates you from the work, you no longer control it, they are free to do with it what they will. It IS Open Source. My point was that Novell doesn't make any kind of deal with you, the contributor of forum postings, code, cute pictures, or whatever. If you send Novell some stuff of any sort, Novell neither agrees to protect you from some kind of legal action involving your stuff, nor asks for an agreement from you not to take legal action against Novell for any reason. Here is the question, more clearly this time: If Novell neither protects its contributors from legal action nor requires that its contributors refrain from taking legal action, how can Novell reach an agreement with Microsoft that allows Microsoft to protect/restrict Novell's contributors in these ways? Saill --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Mandag 20 november 2006 00:36 skrev Saill White:
Here is the question, more clearly this time: If Novell neither protects its contributors from legal action nor requires that its contributors refrain from taking legal action, how can Novell reach an agreement with Microsoft that allows Microsoft to protect/restrict Novell's contributors in these ways?
That whole part of the deal really is smoke and imho it's pretty unimportant. It only has two effects.. 1) It gives an impression that MS are nice guys that don't sue innocent hobbyist developers (PR for the Redmond devils). 2) A purely psychological effect on people who might have been hesitant to contribute to openSUSE for fear of MS patent litigation - assuming any such person exisists. I personally doubt it. The deal does not mean that any openSUSE contributor can infringe MS patents as he pleases.. well, he could.. but only he himself could use that software. Novell have clearly stated that no patented stuff will be included in neither openSUSE nor SLE. Besides the covenant doesn't cover Novell, if MS patents are infringed Novell would still get their asses sued. The whole deal changes just about nothing for openSUSE. - We'll have support for Office "Open" XML in OOo (but I personally expect the patches will be accepted upstream and will be available on other distros too, I actually think it's likely at OOo would have implemented the support anyway.. after all they've worked their asses off reverse engineering .doc, why wouldn't they support office "open" xml too?, after all it's less evil than .doc). - MS won't sue openSUSE boxset customers and code contributors.. well, did anybody even consider the possibility that it could happen 4 weeks ago? .. certainly not me, nothing changed here really. - Stuff that's patented by MS will _not_ be implemented in openSUSE. At least not in a way that infringes on those patents. So nothing's changed here. - I guess virtualization will work better, but that's not crucial to most openSUSE users I guess, and patches to Xen etc. will be free software of course and available for other vendors. And it will _not_ infringe MS patents. Everything will be business as usual for the free software community. Stop worrying about all the FUD and smoke. Martin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 21 November 2006 01:05, Martin Schlander wrote:
Mandag 20 november 2006 00:36 skrev Saill White:
Here is the question, more clearly this time: If Novell neither protects its contributors from legal action nor requires that its contributors refrain from taking legal action, how can Novell reach an agreement with Microsoft that allows Microsoft to protect/restrict Novell's contributors in these ways?
That whole part of the deal really is smoke and imho it's pretty unimportant. It only has two effects..
1) It gives an impression that MS are nice guys that don't sue innocent hobbyist developers (PR for the Redmond devils).
2) A purely psychological effect on people who might have been hesitant to contribute to openSUSE for fear of MS patent litigation - assuming any such person exisists. I personally doubt it. ... The whole deal changes just about nothing for openSUSE. ... Everything will be business as usual for the free software community. Stop worrying about all the FUD and smoke.
Martin, What you have said sounds nice, but it does not address any of my concerns. To me, it sounds like, "stop worrying and sign the contract on the dotted line here..." Well, unfortunately, I'm still at the stage of trying to understand what the contract obliges me as a developer to do, obliges Microsoft to do, obliges Novell to do. In this case, the contract I am talking about is not the Novell/Microsoft deal, but the openSUSE "binding contribution agreement" with its provision on "any licenses, covenants or any other rights under any Microsoft intellectual property". So far I don't understand what Novell has decided to do about this binding contribution agreement, nor do I understand what alternative Novell would use to satisfy Microsoft that condition (ii) has been met and at the same time satisfy free software developers that the GPL has not been violated. Also, if you actually read "Microsoft’s Patent Pledge for Individual Contributors to openSUSE.org" you will find that it is not addressed to "innocent hobbyist developers" but to individual developers, with no distinction between "compensated" and "uncompensated" developers. As for your point 2) the psychological effect on me is to replace a non-existent fear about violating Microsoft patents with a real fear about violating the GPL. Now, again, explain to me why "the whole deal changes just about nothing" and "everything will be business as usual for the free software community". Best, Paul Best, Paul --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
* Paul C. Leopardi <paul.leopardi@iinet.net.au> [11-20-06 17:00]:
Now, again, explain to me why "the whole deal changes just about nothing" and "everything will be business as usual for the free software community". Best, Paul
Paul, _please_ take this conversation to suse-ot@suse.com so all contract interpreters may discuss their expert opinions in the same forum, not the technical forums. ps: To Those_Announcing_Their_Departure, suse-ot is the proper place for your announcement. Thankyou, -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 21 November 2006 09:09, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Paul C. Leopardi <paul.leopardi@iinet.net.au> [11-20-06 17:00]:
Now, again, explain to me why "the whole deal changes just about nothing" and "everything will be business as usual for the free software community". Best, Paul
Paul, _please_ take this conversation to suse-ot@suse.com so all contract interpreters may discuss their expert opinions in the same forum, not the technical forums.
ps: To Those_Announcing_Their_Departure, suse-ot is the proper place for your announcement.
Thankyou,
Patrick, Where is the archive so I can get up to speed on the expert opinions of contract interpreters? The archive is not listed here: http://www.suse.com/en/private/support/online_help/mailinglists/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
* Paul C. Leopardi <paul.leopardi@iinet.net.au> [11-20-06 17:40]:
Where is the archive so I can get up to speed on the expert opinions of contract interpreters? The archive is not listed here: http://www.suse.com/en/private/support/online_help/mailinglists/
there is no archive of suse-ot :^) -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
"Paul C. Leopardi" <paul.leopardi@iinet.net.au> writes:
Martin, What you have said sounds nice, but it does not address any of my concerns. To me, it sounds like, "stop worrying and sign the contract on the dotted line here..." Well, unfortunately, I'm still at the stage of trying to understand what the contract obliges me as a developer to do, obliges Microsoft to do, obliges Novell to do. In this case, the contract I am talking about is not the Novell/Microsoft deal, but the openSUSE "binding contribution agreement" with its provision on "any licenses, covenants or any other rights under any Microsoft intellectual property". So far I don't understand what Novell has decided to do about this binding contribution agreement, nor do I understand what alternative Novell would use to satisfy Microsoft that condition (ii) has been met and at the same time satisfy free software developers that the GPL has not been violated.
And I cannot answer yet how we move forward here, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
participants (6)
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Andreas Jaeger -
Martin Schlander -
Patrick Shanahan -
Paul C. Leopardi -
Saill White -
susedevel＠torchlighttech.com