[opensuse-project] Why is this Ubuntu?
I believe that openSUSE would have been just as good a fit on a netbook as this: http://blogs.zdnet.com/gadgetreviews/?p=1221&tag=nl.e539 I think the reason things like this keep going Ubuntu is not that Ubuntu is better but that LTS makes Ubuntu more usable and more re-installable because its less update intensive. openSUSE 10.3 , A very likable and usable version takes almost 2 gb of updates to get to it's best. if all these updates had been rolled into a 10.3 LTS ISO it could have taken HP's breath away! It's our duty to find a way to keep the libre\free version of SUSE as close to enterprise as possible without stealing it's thunder. We have to find a blend of reliability and pioneering edge. SLED moves to slow for personal usage yet, IMHO , openSUSE seems to move to fast. -- James Tremblay openSIS Product Specialist http://www.os4ed.com CNE 3,4,5 MCSE w2k CLE in training Registered Linux user #440182 http://en.opensuse.org/education -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 5:45 AM, James Tremblay aka SLEducator <fxrsliberty@opensuse.us> wrote:
I believe that openSUSE would have been just as good a fit on a netbook as this: http://blogs.zdnet.com/gadgetreviews/?p=1221&tag=nl.e539 I think the reason things like this keep going Ubuntu is not that Ubuntu is better but that LTS makes Ubuntu more usable and more re-installable because its less update intensive. openSUSE 10.3 , A very likable and usable version takes almost 2 gb of updates to get to it's best. if all these updates had been rolled into a 10.3 LTS ISO it could have taken HP's breath away! It's our duty to find a way to keep the libre\free version of SUSE as close to enterprise as possible without stealing it's thunder. We have to find a blend of reliability and pioneering edge. SLED moves to slow for personal usage yet, IMHO , openSUSE seems to move to fast.
There's probably a lot of performance / bloated perception problems too, especially for such an underpowered machine. Out of the box, openSUSE crawls on my netbook (Acer Aspire One) while Ubuntu is quite nippy. Of course, with a few file system tweaks, a new kernel, removing beagle and a couple other services -- openSUSE is every bit as fast. Yet it leaves people with the impression "openSUSE is slow, Ubuntu is fast." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Eric Springer wrote:
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 5:45 AM, James Tremblay aka SLEducator <fxrsliberty@opensuse.us> wrote:
I believe that openSUSE would have been just as good a fit on a netbook as this: http://blogs.zdnet.com/gadgetreviews/?p=1221&tag=nl.e539 I think the reason things like this keep going Ubuntu is not that Ubuntu is better but that LTS makes Ubuntu more usable and more re-installable because its less update intensive. openSUSE 10.3 , A very likable and usable version takes almost 2 gb of updates to get to it's best. if all these updates had been rolled into a 10.3 LTS ISO it could have taken HP's breath away! It's our duty to find a way to keep the libre\free version of SUSE as close to enterprise as possible without stealing it's thunder. We have to find a blend of reliability and pioneering edge. SLED moves to slow for personal usage yet, IMHO , openSUSE seems to move to fast.
There's probably a lot of performance / bloated perception problems too, especially for such an underpowered machine. Out of the box, openSUSE crawls on my netbook (Acer Aspire One) while Ubuntu is quite nippy. Of course, with a few file system tweaks, a new kernel, removing beagle and a couple other services -- openSUSE is every bit as fast. Yet it leaves people with the impression "openSUSE is slow, Ubuntu is fast."
What is even worse , according to this http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7255 the only netbook to carry any version of SuSE is now not doing so, that is 7 out of 7 running something other than SuSE. No netbooks for my family this year ;) This is an important detail to me as these are largely going into children's hands and umm, I started the openSUSE EDU project. Please lets help HP and Lenovo come home! -- James Tremblay openSIS Product Specialist http://www.os4ed.com mail james "AT" os4ed.com CNE 3,4,5 MCSE w2k CLE in training Registered Linux user #440182 http://en.opensuse.org/education -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
What is even worse , according to this http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7255 the only netbook to carry any version of SuSE is now not doing so, that is 7 out of 7 running something other than SuSE. No netbooks for my family this year ;) This is an important detail to me as these are largely going into children's hands and umm, I started the openSUSE EDU project. Please lets help HP and Lenovo come home!
How do you think openSUSE can make it on netbooks if Novell is pushing SLE there, clearly not understanding that the target user is different, and, as a consequence, people is not interested in an enterprise desktop, but wants something more flexible? Another consideration is that to push openSUSE on netbooks, Novell would have to grant level of qualities of two distributions, SLE and openSUSE, while currently they have formally no obligation with respect to openSUSE. In other words, I don't see any chance for openSUSE on netbooks if Novell doesn't wake up from the "Enterprise only" dream, and starts concentrating also on _actually_ making openSUSE what its slogan say: "The most usable Linux for home users". In this respect, I am very interested on the focus discussion, which should start sooner or later, about openSUSE goals. Regards, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Alberto Passalacqua <alberto.passalacqua@tin.it> wrote:
What is even worse , according to this http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7255 the only netbook to carry any version of SuSE is now not doing so, that is 7 out of 7 running something other than SuSE. No netbooks for my family this year ;) This is an important detail to me as these are largely going into children's hands and umm, I started the openSUSE EDU project. Please lets help HP and Lenovo come home!
How do you think openSUSE can make it on netbooks if Novell is pushing SLE there, clearly not understanding that the target user is different, and, as a consequence, people is not interested in an enterprise desktop, but wants something more flexible?
Another consideration is that to push openSUSE on netbooks, Novell would have to grant level of qualities of two distributions, SLE and openSUSE, while currently they have formally no obligation with respect to openSUSE.
In other words, I don't see any chance for openSUSE on netbooks if Novell doesn't wake up from the "Enterprise only" dream, and starts concentrating also on _actually_ making openSUSE what its slogan say: "The most usable Linux for home users". In this respect, I am very interested on the focus discussion, which should start sooner or later, about openSUSE goals.
Regards, Alberto
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
I have been reading articles recently about Novell specifically their financial condition and, of course, OpenSUSE. I to am beginning to wonder where OpenSUSE lies with Novell and are we just test subjects for their improvement of SLED and SLES. Is Novell trying to get computer makers to place SLED on their systems and where does that take OpenSUSE in this area? Are we going to be just a home user experiment or can we come up with a strategy to entice users to use our operating system as a main part of their daily routine in using their computers? If we push to hard and users start adopting OpenSUSE and Novell loses users for SLED what will Novell do with OpenSUSE? These are just some of the questions we as the community need to start looking at. Since I have never read exactly what was in the take over of OpenSUSE by Novell I do sometimes think about this for our future. I am not saying this will happen but what if Novell falls upon dire financial straits is there anything we can do as the community to keep OpenSUSE going without Novell telling us to stop and desist? Or better written do we have plans if anything like this does occur? PeterPac www.InNetInvestigations-Forensic.com SuSE 10.2/SuSE 10.3/TriStar/Apache SuSE 11.1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 05 March 2009 06:13:51 member greenarrow1 wrote:
[...] I have been reading articles recently about Novell specifically their financial condition and, of course, OpenSUSE. I to am beginning to wonder where OpenSUSE lies with Novell and are we just test subjects for their improvement of SLED and SLES. Is Novell trying to get
You get everything in openSUSE that is in SLED and SLES as well (unless it's closed source software that is not freely redistributable). openSUSE 11.1 contains already nearly everything that SLE{D,S}11 will have and those things that are missing (since SLE gets released later) might hit openSUSE 11.1 as updates or have been added to the factory tree targetting openSUSE 11.2. openSUSE is an own distribution where we make also changes that are not needed for SLE at all but are needed for the openSUSE community.
computer makers to place SLED on their systems and where does that take OpenSUSE in this area? Are we going to be just a home user experiment or can we come up with a strategy to entice users to use our operating system as a main part of their daily routine in using their computers? If we push to hard and users start adopting OpenSUSE and Novell loses users for SLED what will Novell do with OpenSUSE?
Novell likes to have an independend openSUSE. If we make openSUSE that perfect that nobody wants SLED anymore, then Novell has to rethink it's business model. The business model of SLE is making money not only with selling of a product but with the support offerings for it. If openSUSE becomes better than SLED, Novell will cope with it. So, yes, please discuss where we all want openSUSE to go - and please respect that Novell cannot do everything itself.
These are just some of the questions we as the community need to start looking at. Since I have never read exactly what was in the take over of OpenSUSE by Novell I do sometimes think about this for our future.
openSUSE is what the community makes out of it - and I consider myself and Novell part of the community.
I am not saying this will happen but what if Novell falls upon dire financial straits is there anything we can do as the community to keep OpenSUSE going without Novell telling us to stop and desist? Or better written do we have plans if anything like this does occur?
We have opened up process and tools - and still have to do more here - so that people outside of Novell can build the distribution without access to the internal network. Now this needs to be taken advantage of. I see already some parts like Carlos doing a KDE 3.5 LiveCD, people maintaining the Contrib repository but that's just the beginning. The project is constantly changing and opening up - and sometimes those small changes cause pain or do not get noticed on a daily basis.. Btw. Peter, it's openSUSE with a small "o", Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Andreas Jaeger a écrit :
The business model of SLE is making money not only with selling of a product but with the support offerings for it. If openSUSE becomes better than SLED, Novell will cope with it.
openSUSE can't become better than SLED, because the goal is not the same. Most openSUSE users wouldn't even mind to run SLED (too oldfashioned :-) - As I see it, SLED is for companies having lots of computers given to the employee, the user having nothing to change on the computer but only use it as is. This need rock solid system changing as little as possible
openSUSE is what the community makes out of it - and I consider myself and Novell part of the community.
this is not true. Novel may be benevolent it's still a dictator... See what openFATE will do in the future :-)
repository but that's just the beginning.
many people forget than ubuntu started from Debian and is still very close to Debian and Debian is very old
Btw. Peter, it's openSUSE with a small "o",
It's a problem, because in many countries (including France) namles begin uppercase as do first sentence word jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le jeudi 05 mars 2009, à 10:23 +0100, jdd a écrit :
Andreas Jaeger a écrit :
openSUSE is what the community makes out of it - and I consider myself and Novell part of the community.
this is not true. Novel may be benevolent it's still a dictator... See what openFATE will do in the future :-)
Can you elaborate on what you mean? (so we can try to fix it :-)) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Torsdag 05 marts 2009 14:06:13 skrev Vincent Untz:
Le jeudi 05 mars 2009, à 10:23 +0100, jdd a écrit :
Andreas Jaeger a écrit :
openSUSE is what the community makes out of it - and I consider myself and Novell part of the community.
this is not true. Novel may be benevolent it's still a dictator... See what openFATE will do in the future :-)
Can you elaborate on what you mean? (so we can try to fix it :-))
It's a bit silly to deny that Novell (whoever that is) doesn't have "veto power" in any important decision in openSUSE. Of course you probably didn't experience 10.1, so you can't possibly fully understand the full magnitude of what they're able and willing to do to us, if it suits them - and how little anyone can do about it, if there's something that Novell does or doesn't want. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 05 March 2009 14:21:35 Martin Schlander wrote:
Torsdag 05 marts 2009 14:06:13 skrev Vincent Untz:
Le jeudi 05 mars 2009, à 10:23 +0100, jdd a écrit :
Andreas Jaeger a écrit :
openSUSE is what the community makes out of it - and I consider myself and Novell part of the community.
this is not true. Novel may be benevolent it's still a dictator... See what openFATE will do in the future :-)
Can you elaborate on what you mean? (so we can try to fix it :-))
It's a bit silly to deny that Novell (whoever that is) doesn't have "veto power" in any important decision in openSUSE.
I know Novell has still too much power and we're trying to change that - and giving up power is not easy ;). So, please bear with us. And keep in mind that while there are many interesting things, we can not do everything ourselves, so feel empowered to change openSUSE!
Of course you probably didn't experience 10.1, so you can't possibly fully understand the full magnitude of what they're able and willing to do to us, if it suits them - and how little anyone can do about it, if there's something that Novell does or doesn't want.
Yes, 10.1 was a painfull experience - and we wouldn't have done it this way if we would have known before, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Thu, 2009-03-05 at 14:21 +0100, Martin Schlander wrote:
Torsdag 05 marts 2009 14:06:13 skrev Vincent Untz:
Le jeudi 05 mars 2009, à 10:23 +0100, jdd a écrit :
Andreas Jaeger a écrit :
openSUSE is what the community makes out of it - and I consider myself and Novell part of the community.
this is not true. Novel may be benevolent it's still a dictator... See what openFATE will do in the future :-)
Can you elaborate on what you mean? (so we can try to fix it :-))
It's a bit silly to deny that Novell (whoever that is) doesn't have "veto power" in any important decision in openSUSE.
Of course you probably didn't experience 10.1, so you can't possibly fully understand the full magnitude of what they're able and willing to do to us, if it suits them - and how little anyone can do about it, if there's something that Novell does or doesn't want.
Much has changed since 10.1, including time itself. While it is true that Novell still holds a certain amount of control, that control is ebbing slowly over time, due to community activism, lessons learned and even Novell slowly releasing its grip. I think we should look back at 10.1/ZMD as an important moment in our history lessons but not continue to live in that moment. If there are issues that you feel that your concerns as a community member aren't being heard, you can always forward your issues to the Board. While we also do not have technical veto power, we do have ways to escalate the issue when appropriate so it gets heard. Ultimately, it is about empowerment. For the community to have greater say and impact on openSUSE, we need to continue to grow, and be actively involved wherever possible. I know that sounds like some sort of campaign message coming from me, but its true. The larger we are, the more vocal we are, the more active we are, the more contributions we make, the more likely we will be to have a stronger influence and level the playing field with Novell. -- Bryen Yunashko openSUSE Board Member openSUSE-GNOME Team Member GNOME-A11y Team Member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Much has changed since 10.1, including time itself.
I agree, things changed. But some substantial aspects are exactly identical, and they are playing a major role, affecting 11.1 and potentially all other releases.
While it is true that Novell still holds a certain amount of control, that control is ebbing slowly over time, due to community activism, lessons learned and even Novell slowly releasing its grip. I think we should look back at 10.1/ZMD as an important moment in our history lessons but not continue to live in that moment.
Right. But the event repeated, even if in a different form, with 11.1, which was again rushed "in favour" of SLE. I used " " on purpose, because I don't see how a rushed openSUSE can be if any help even for Novell, and I still find it very hard to understand why they rush the base of their enterprise distribution. It makes no sense.
If there are issues that you feel that your concerns as a community member aren't being heard, you can always forward your issues to the Board. While we also do not have technical veto power, we do have ways to escalate the issue when appropriate so it gets heard.
Right. Formally. In practice the board members live in the community exactly as us, they know the problems (I'm sure of that), and their action is limited exactly as the action of members and simple users.
Ultimately, it is about empowerment. For the community to have greater say and impact on openSUSE, we need to continue to grow, and be actively involved wherever possible.
I fully agree on this. But to have a growing community, Novell has to _trust_ the community and throw its prejudices away. This would improve Novell experience and probably save them some (maybe not too much) money. Just look at how Novell managed translations on SLE, which instead of being based on the community fixed ones, corrected in three release cycles, present significant regressions coming from SLE 10. Just an example on something I experienced, of course, but it clarifies that Novell can have advantages from the community too.
I know that sounds like some sort of campaign message coming from me, but its true. The larger we are, the more vocal we are, the more active we are, the more contributions we make, the more likely we will be to have a stronger influence and level the playing field with Novell.
I agree, but as I answered to Vincent, to grow we need to provide new users, who are potential contributors, the tools to grow themselves. Or we will see the usual random contributor come, get frustrated because he sees he can't change things, and leave for some other place where his voice can be actually heard. Regards, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 05 March 2009 07:21:35 am Martin Schlander wrote:
Of course you probably didn't experience 10.1, so you can't possibly fully understand the full magnitude of what they're able and willing to do to us, if it suits them - and how little anyone can do about it, if there's something that Novell does or doesn't want.
Sincerely, behind 10.1 fiasco was the very same thing that prevents Novell to adjust to changes today, massive and somewhat crusty corporate structure that resists (hate) any change. Large corporations are much like any large body, they have high inertia. They can't change direction fast for any reason, even to save their own existence. There are changes, but we should not stop pushing and reminding all the time. Times are changing and need for activity will not cease any soon. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, on 03/05/2009 03:51 PM Rajko M. wrote:
Sincerely, behind 10.1 fiasco was the very same thing that prevents Novell to adjust to changes today, massive and somewhat crusty corporate structure that resists (hate) any change.
I'm sorry but what the heck are you talking about? Tell me one concrete example of your theory. 10.1 is not an example of a crusty corporate structure that hates change. Its an example of a wrong decision taken for all the wrong reasons and learning from it. We keep talking about this group of people that calls itself Novell as if it is a Person. Novell is Michael Matz and Petr Uzel. Its AJ, Adrian Miguel, Stefan Dirsch and Ron Hovsepian. Its me and the cleaning lady. If you think that someone is crusty and hates change then tell them. Or tell me so i can de-crust them. But putting everyone in a sack and beat on it is simply wrong. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
We keep talking about this group of people that calls itself Novell as if it is a Person. Novell is Michael Matz and Petr Uzel. Its AJ, Adrian Miguel, Stefan Dirsch and Ron Hovsepian. Its me and the cleaning lady. If you think that someone is crusty and hates change then tell them. Or tell me so i can de-crust them. But putting everyone in a sack and beat on it is simply wrong.
I thin k you are wrong, but it's usefull to explain why. You are not Novell. None of the people listed are, not in the sense meant here. We know all these people (yes, may be also the cleaning lady :-) are part of the community. But a lot of important things are decided on upper company levels and nor you not me can do anything theer. what where the criteria to choose who had to be fired? certainly not quality of work - and we don't have to know. again, we have to live with this. Even in Debian community, the community is probably not as powerfull as any crazy millonaire can be ... (joke :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 05 March 2009 09:08:14 am Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hi,
on 03/05/2009 03:51 PM Rajko M. wrote:
Sincerely, behind 10.1 fiasco was the very same thing that prevents Novell to adjust to changes today, massive and somewhat crusty corporate structure that resists (hate) any change.
I'm sorry but what the heck are you talking about? Tell me one concrete example of your theory.
10.1 is not an example of a crusty corporate structure that hates change. Its an example of a wrong decision taken for all the wrong reasons and learning from it.
Really :-) Few individuals, not influenced by environment, brought wrong decision, but learned from consequences, end of story. Romantic picture that I haven't seen except in movies. The real work place where boss can send you home, his boss can send him home, and so on, employees will write what is expected to be written in reports, with as little as possible annoyance for superiors, and there is small chance that decision maker, few floors upper, will ever get real picture. That is exactly the same communication problem in any company and it gets worse with the time. The only way to make guys on upper floors aware of problems is when customers/users cry laud, or they order a survey.
We keep talking about this group of people that calls itself Novell as if it is a Person. Novell is Michael Matz and Petr Uzel. Its AJ, Adrian Miguel, Stefan Dirsch and Ron Hovsepian. Its me and the cleaning lady. If you think that someone is crusty and hates change then tell them. Or tell me so i can de-crust them. But putting everyone in a sack and beat on it is simply wrong.
Corporations spend quite some effort to create corporate identity, and now you complain on success :-) Problem is that large entity is sum of components. What any one of you want can come out completely different when summed up. It is fact of life. And, about decrusting, I can see some, otherwise I wouldn't care to comment, but there is still to strong focus on enterprise. *** The main problem is that Novell has no product for small business and personal use. Many would go around and try to sell software, but offer is SLED or openSUSE. First expensive, second far from professional. There is nothing in between. Last time, when I did installation, it took me 4 hours with reasonably fast DSL. The 11.0 was installed in lesser than hour, the rest was updates, multimedia setup, and few words how to use. I don't know many people that are so patient. You can imagine what problem is when computer refuse to boot after kernel update, or graphic driver is not ready when kernel is, or any of many other problems. I have to be ready and fix the problem instantly, because I convinced person to use the Linux. Not to mention that such problems defeat main argument to switch, to have computer without problems.
Henne
-- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009, Rajko M. wrote:
10.1 is not an example of a crusty corporate structure that hates change. Its an example of a wrong decision taken for all the wrong reasons and learning from it. Really :-) Few individuals, not influenced by environment, brought wrong decision, but learned from consequences, end of story. Romantic picture that I haven't seen except in movies.
It's not just individuals that can learn, also organizations are able to learn. Both took place due to what happened that year.
The only way to make guys on upper floors aware of problems is when customers/users cry laud, or they order a survey.
This list is not quite complete. Think open door policies, skip level meetings, advisory boards, etc. At Novell we have all of these.
And, about decrusting, I can see some, otherwise I wouldn't care to comment, but there is still to strong focus on enterprise.
*** The main problem is that Novell has no product for small business and personal use. Many would go around and try to sell software, but offer is SLED or openSUSE. First expensive, second far from professional. There is nothing in between.
Somehow most concerns about our Enterprise products on this list are raised by non-Novell employees ;-), whereas AJ and me (and other colleagues) keep reemphasizing that making openSUSE as good and successful as possible is our primary objective here. The proposal regarding openSUSE release cycles is a good example, by the way. This is solely driven from an openSUSE perspective. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management T +49(911)74053-0 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) openSUSE/SUSE Linux Enterprise F +49(911)74053-483 GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 14 March 2009 08:56:21 pm Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009, Rajko M. wrote:
10.1 is not an example of a crusty corporate structure that hates change. Its an example of a wrong decision taken for all the wrong reasons and learning from it.
Really :-) Few individuals, not influenced by environment, brought wrong decision, but learned from consequences, end of story. Romantic picture that I haven't seen except in movies.
It's not just individuals that can learn, also organizations are able to learn. Both took place due to what happened that year.
I've seen that, but we (mostly you) have to pull togheather many pieces, that make problems.
The only way to make guys on upper floors aware of problems is when customers/users cry laud, or they order a survey.
This list is not quite complete.
Yes, mail list is useful too :-)
Think open door policies, skip level meetings, advisory boards, etc. At Novell we have all of these.
I wrote, actually, letter about communication problems, and they are real. Though, it could be that it never came out of draft folder. I often leave mails over night. Next morning I see discussion went somewhere else, and send letter in trash. Problems where employee don't want to upset boss and skips inconvenient details, and that goes level after level until nothing is left from bunch of small problems that all make rainy day.
And, about decrusting, I can see some, otherwise I wouldn't care to comment, but there is still to strong focus on enterprise.
*** The main problem is that Novell has no product for small business and personal use. Many would go around and try to sell software, but offer is SLED or openSUSE. First expensive, second far from professional. There is nothing in between.
Somehow most concerns about our Enterprise products on this list are raised by non-Novell employees ;-), whereas AJ and me (and other colleagues) keep reemphasizing that making openSUSE as good and successful as possible is our primary objective here.
There are 2 reasons for concern from non-Novell employees side. One is that we invested quite some time in openSUSE and we want to be part of success, not anything else. The other is that everybody is looking for backup plan right now. Having good, but relative cheap software can be chance, not only for Novell, but for many independent vendors to turn crisis into grow.
The proposal regarding openSUSE release cycles is a good example, by the way. This is solely driven from an openSUSE perspective.
Yes, I got that. It is something in the wording that makes me optimistic, and it seems that I'm not alone.
Gerald
-- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009, Martin Schlander wrote:
Of course you probably didn't experience 10.1, so you can't possibly fully understand the full magnitude of what they're able and willing to do to us, if it suits them - and how little anyone can do about it, if there's something that Novell does or doesn't want.
I think you should give Novell the benefit of doubt when it comes to learning from mistakes. The technology has been fixed (fastest update stack ever!), a number of processes have been changed/put in place, responsibilities have changed, and openSUSE is a lot stronger -- and vocal -- than it used to be. And I'm going to put my job on the line to prevent something like that from happening again. (No, I was not in my current role back then.) Just, can we get over the 10.1 mistake and move forward? Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management T +49(911)74053-0 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) openSUSE/SUSE Linux Enterprise F +49(911)74053-483 GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Lørdag 14 marts 2009 15:23:44 skrev Gerald Pfeifer:
Just, can we get over the 10.1 mistake and move forward?
I'll get over it when/if a decent openSUSE x.1 is ever released >:-) For me 11.1 reopened the scars. From my point of view 11.1 was sacrificed on the altar of SLE pretty much like 10.1 was. It was different in the way that 10.1 was rather good apart from a single central non-working component, whereas 11.1 was more a case of death by a thousand bugs. The development process was a complete mess with zero respect for feature freeze or string freeze (being a translator gives you a pretty good idea of what's going on development wise). Instead of fixing bugs developers were busy developing features for SLE after openSUSE feature freeze. I believe more new features were in 11.1 than usual, despite 11.1 being a shorter release cycle than usual - and the effects of that messy process on quality were of course quite predictable - 11.1 was released with a heep of bugs - including major ones like non-working cd-burning, compiz, kbluetooth, amarok2... I installed 10.1 on the release day, installing Smart and disabling zmd was all that was required to make it very nice. 11.1 I didn't install until just the other day, when I figured it had prolly been patched to a respectable level after a few months. Maybe now, a few months after the release I'll even start recommending 11.1 to some people. Investing a lot of spare time translating, testing, doing artwork and writing documentation for a broken release that you don't even want to use yourself, let alone recommend to anyone else, is really painful - especially when it happens for the second time. I started researching and testing other distros when it became clear that 11.1 would be really poor. That's a big decision for someone to make after years of openSUSE contribution and zealotry. However, for now I've found that the other distros are at least equally flawed. This discussion started when someone said that openSUSE is what we make of it, but both 10.1 and 11.1 show that at least every 4th openSUSE release (the x.1s) are very much so at the mercy of structures, planning and decisions made by some invisible hand that I usally refer to as "Novell". I think it's difficult to grow when every 4th release automatically sucks. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Martin Schlander a écrit :
Lørdag 14 marts 2009 15:23:44 skrev Gerald Pfeifer:
Just, can we get over the 10.1 mistake and move forward?
I'll get over it when/if a decent openSUSE x.1 is ever released >:-)
For me 11.1 reopened the scars. From my point of view 11.1 was sacrificed on the altar of SLE pretty much like 10.1 was.
the only problem I have with 11.1 is kde4. since I stopped and went back to kde3.5, no more problems jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-03-15 at 16:22 +0100, jdd wrote:
For me 11.1 reopened the scars. From my point of view 11.1 was sacrificed on the altar of SLE pretty much like 10.1 was.
the only problem I have with 11.1 is kde4. since I stopped and went back to kde3.5, no more problems
Then you have been lucky. During the beta/rc phase I bumped into several bad bugs that impeded me from testing other things. The last one was that the system crashed entirely, every time, a bug that has been solved by the last kernel update: meaning that I could not even think of installing 11.1 till now. And now, a new one appeared, with that last update: when hibernating, the machine does not power off. Again, I can not install. So yes, 11.1 is a bad release. IMO, of course. And based on my experience, when asked by novices, I can not recommend 11.1 - and that distresses me. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkm9rbgACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XsowCeJDaFjRIzvAUJv4um0kY5EYVN iJMAnRblStG7o8R1hTk9F/Dab+22ZGC+ =lxnX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Then you have been lucky.
may be hardware dependant ? I kept 11.1 mainly because the update stack is very fast and I use it very often jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2009/3/16 jdd <jdd@dodin.org>:
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Then you have been lucky.
may be hardware dependant ?
I kept 11.1 mainly because the update stack is very fast and I use it very often
I agree with Carlos. I'm running 5 stationary PC's and 3 laptops on 11.1 with KDE4.1 It's really loveable, but it's not so stable that I can recomend it to friends. For the stationary PC's I'm running a system with LDAP authentication with automaounting NFS homes and the user profile stored on the NFS home. All PC's are of cource not the same, as it is a home setup. In this setup I see a lot of strange problems with the KDE task bar and plasma. On one of them I can't even get through the login procedure with one user that works on the 4 others. So of course, it can be HW dependent, but I'm not sure about that... I'm using normal of the mill x86 HW. Some Intel and some AMD and mostly Nvidia as Gfx. (Yes I have written bugzillas during 11.1 testing , but not on everything. I only have som much time...) Birger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Vincent Untz a écrit :
Le jeudi 05 mars 2009, à 10:23 +0100, jdd a écrit :
openSUSE is what the community makes out of it - and I consider myself and Novell part of the community.
Andreas Jaeger a écrit : this is not true. Novel may be benevolent it's still a dictator... See what openFATE will do in the future :-)
Can you elaborate on what you mean? (so we can try to fix it :-))
important choices are made by we don't know who in Novell management, certainly not by "the community". openFATE seems a way to ask the community what it wants, we will see how Novell work with it jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 8:41 AM, jdd <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
Vincent Untz a écrit :
Le jeudi 05 mars 2009, à 10:23 +0100, jdd a écrit :
openSUSE is what the community makes out of it - and I consider myself and Novell part of the community.
Andreas Jaeger a écrit : this is not true. Novel may be benevolent it's still a dictator... See what openFATE will do in the future :-)
Can you elaborate on what you mean? (so we can try to fix it :-))
important choices are made by we don't know who in Novell management, certainly not by "the community". openFATE seems a way to ask the community what it wants, we will see how Novell work with it
That's something we're trying to get away from. As Andreas says - it's not easy. It's not just a matter of "Novell doesn't want to give up control," either - part of it is being conscious of when decisions should be made publicly, rather than by the people in the room at any given time. So, 1) please be patient with the Novell employees who are moving in the right direction, and 2) *politely* remind us if/when "important choices" are made without input from the community. This is like any other relationship, it takes work, but we'll get there. :-) Thanks! Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier a écrit :
That's something we're trying to get away from
Sorry, I didn't ind to start a flame. I find perfectly normal than Novell have a major place in decisions, and as long as Novell will be the nearly only sponsor, this is to stay. We have seen this when some important people where fired. it's life. We simply have to take this into account.
This is like any other relationship, it takes work, but we'll get there. :-)
it's more than this. we are tight close to Novell and have to hope Novell will go well is the so hard crisis all of us are facing now jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 05 March 2009 15:01:50 jdd wrote:
Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier a écrit :
That's something we're trying to get away from
Sorry, I didn't ind to start a flame. I find perfectly normal than Novell have a major place in decisions, and as long as Novell will be the nearly only sponsor, this is to stay. We have seen this when some important people where fired. it's life.
Novell will continue to be part of openSUSE, and as such I consider myself and other employees community members, but our vision includes that we make decisions in a transparent way in a community process and not decisions by Novell behind closed doors.
We simply have to take this into account.
This is like any other relationship, it takes work, but we'll get there. :-)
it's more than this. we are tight close to Novell and have to hope Novell will go well is the so hard crisis all of us are facing now
Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Le jeudi 05 mars 2009, à 14:41 +0100, jdd a écrit :
Vincent Untz a écrit :
Le jeudi 05 mars 2009, à 10:23 +0100, jdd a écrit :
openSUSE is what the community makes out of it - and I consider myself and Novell part of the community.
Andreas Jaeger a écrit : this is not true. Novel may be benevolent it's still a dictator... See what openFATE will do in the future :-)
Can you elaborate on what you mean? (so we can try to fix it :-))
important choices are made by we don't know who in Novell management, certainly not by "the community". openFATE seems a way to ask the community what it wants, we will see how Novell work with it
Stupid question: what's blocking non-Novell people to implement the features tracked in openFATE? I can understand that the priorities as seen by the Novell management can have an impact on what the Novell employees work on. But it doesn't mean it's blocking non-Novell people to do other things (and actually, you will likely see Novell people work on other stuff in their free time). Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 05 March 2009 14:58:17 Vincent Untz wrote:
Le jeudi 05 mars 2009, à 14:41 +0100, jdd a écrit :
Vincent Untz a écrit :
Le jeudi 05 mars 2009, à 10:23 +0100, jdd a écrit :
Andreas Jaeger a écrit :
openSUSE is what the community makes out of it - and I consider myself and Novell part of the community.
this is not true. Novel may be benevolent it's still a dictator... See what openFATE will do in the future :-)
Can you elaborate on what you mean? (so we can try to fix it :-))
important choices are made by we don't know who in Novell management, certainly not by "the community". openFATE seems a way to ask the community what it wants, we will see how Novell work with it
Stupid question: what's blocking non-Novell people to implement the features tracked in openFATE?
There should be nothing. And if somebody feels blocked, speak up and I'll try to help moving the block.
I can understand that the priorities as seen by the Novell management can have an impact on what the Novell employees work on. But it doesn't mean it's blocking non-Novell people to do other things (and actually, you will likely see Novell people work on other stuff in their free time).
Full agreement, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Štvrtok 05 March 2009 14:58:17 Vincent Untz wrote:
Le jeudi 05 mars 2009, à 14:41 +0100, jdd a écrit :
Vincent Untz a écrit :
Le jeudi 05 mars 2009, à 10:23 +0100, jdd a écrit :
Andreas Jaeger a écrit :
openSUSE is what the community makes out of it - and I consider myself and Novell part of the community.
this is not true. Novel may be benevolent it's still a dictator... See what openFATE will do in the future :-)
Can you elaborate on what you mean? (so we can try to fix it :-))
important choices are made by we don't know who in Novell management, certainly not by "the community". openFATE seems a way to ask the community what it wants, we will see how Novell work with it
Stupid question: what's blocking non-Novell people to implement the features tracked in openFATE?
I can understand that the priorities as seen by the Novell management can have an impact on what the Novell employees work on. But it doesn't mean it's blocking non-Novell people to do other things (and actually, you will likely see Novell people work on other stuff in their free time).
I would go one step further and suggest - if you are interested in working on a feature, put there a comment stating so (I hope there will be better means in future to handle this). I'm pretty sure it will not go unnoticed. Stano -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Stanislav Visnovsky a écrit :
I would go one step further and suggest - if you are interested in working on a feature, put there a comment stating so (I hope there will be better means in future to handle this). I'm pretty sure it will not go unnoticed.
you know this don't really mind anything. Most non-Novell community members are *not* programmers, but help writing documentation, translating wiki or testing so we can't live without Novell. However Novell would be much embarrassed if the non-Novell community left, so we have to work together as we did and try help eachother jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2009-03-05 at 15:53 +0100, jdd wrote:
Stanislav Visnovsky a écrit :
I would go one step further and suggest - if you are interested in working on a feature, put there a comment stating so (I hope there will be better means in future to handle this). I'm pretty sure it will not go unnoticed.
you know this don't really mind anything. Most non-Novell community members are *not* programmers, but help writing documentation, translating wiki or testing
Exactly :-) (And if I were to program something, I'd use Pascal, so it would be useless for almost everybody else :-P ) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmwm6IACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WBnwCgjqnqxle8mCORyV6XjbJTH/Wa AVEAn0nRqSYrrmamr4uHV4GqbtqdND9U =L2IM -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Le vendredi 06 mars 2009, à 04:42 +0100, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On Thursday, 2009-03-05 at 15:53 +0100, jdd wrote:
Stanislav Visnovsky a écrit :
I would go one step further and suggest - if you are interested in working on a feature, put there a comment stating so (I hope there will be better means in future to handle this). I'm pretty sure it will not go unnoticed.
you know this don't really mind anything. Most non-Novell community members are *not* programmers, but help writing documentation, translating wiki or testing
Exactly :-)
I don't understand why people think features can only be code. A really really useful new feature would be "improve organization of documentation", and it has nothing to do with code, eg :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Monday 09 March 2009, Vincent Untz wrote:
[...]
I don't understand why people think features can only be code. A really really useful new feature would be "improve organization of documentation", and it has nothing to do with code, eg :-)
Thanks Vincent! Well, you could "code" your documentation in LaTeX, XML, HTML, normal text, ... ;-) Tom -- Thomas Schraitle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX GmbH >o) Documentation Specialist Maxfeldstrasse 5 /\\ 90409 Nuernberg _\_v http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation_Team http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lessons_for_Lizards http://lizards.opensuse.org/author/thomas-schraitle/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi! On Štvrtok 05 March 2009 15:53:25 jdd wrote:
Stanislav Visnovsky a écrit :
I would go one step further and suggest - if you are interested in working on a feature, put there a comment stating so (I hope there will be better means in future to handle this). I'm pretty sure it will not go unnoticed.
you know this don't really mind anything. Most non-Novell community members are *not* programmers, but help writing documentation, translating wiki or testing
Example where everyone can help: Feature #305634: Debian-like dist-upgrade live system full version upgrade (https://features.opensuse.org/305634) The biggest part of this feature is: 1) testing 2) documenting pitfalls Stano -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Stanislav Visnovsky a écrit :
The biggest part of this feature is: 1) testing
how? it's pretty difficult to test twice :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-03-06 at 09:43 +0100, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
Example where everyone can help:
Feature #305634: Debian-like dist-upgrade live system full version upgrade (https://features.opensuse.org/305634)
The biggest part of this feature is: 1) testing 2) documenting pitfalls
This is terribly difficult to test. Or rather, very much time consuming. We need a system that is now 11.1, and have to run an upgrade "zypper dup" to factory - (beta or rc, not alfa, I think). We can run this only once, and on the "stable" partition. If it hoses, we have to rebuild our stable partition from scratch, or backup (meaning: do a backup before every test of this). Or, if we have the time, create a test partition with 11.1, and update it to factory, and reset, several times, to test the feature. This is a very long test during which we can not use our computer - and not every tester has several computers to use simultaneously. Like one for testing, one for "producing". - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmxErAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W4ogCfZZ+VuGnsWczMwfFzV9g5ylY3 lgwAnRvYv/LbBZV7YCrZQVywZaqE0WYc =c9Ft -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
We need a system that is now 11.1, and have to run an upgrade "zypper dup" to factory - (beta or rc, not alfa, I think). We can run this only once, and on the "stable" partition. If it hoses, we have to rebuild our stable partition from scratch, or backup (meaning: do a backup before every test of this).
what we can do is test it on virtualbox at least on the beginning and it's what I did to install factory, I could document the process if necessary jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-03-06 at 13:22 +0100, jdd wrote:
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
We need a system that is now 11.1, and have to run an upgrade "zypper dup" to factory - (beta or rc, not alfa, I think). We can run this only once, and on the "stable" partition. If it hoses, we have to rebuild our stable partition from scratch, or backup (meaning: do a backup before every test of this).
what we can do is test it on virtualbox at least on the beginning
Could be, yes... Still, we need a working 11.1 installation under vmware or virtualbox, then update it to factory. In vmware at least, you can revert all changes to go back to 11.1 and try again. Time consuming, but at least the computer is not out of commission during the test. It would be easier if an image of the installed (virtual) system is distributed. But now that I think! Testing a virtual system means that everybody will test the same hardware (the virtual hardware). Than may be not good. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmxM3oACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WjIQCfdsu/q9iEJ04EfLlWJxbIHrP4 Q8IAoIspeLmNNmzxtjRWxQrXDSEBun1H =cEfu -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
what we can do is test it on virtualbox at least on the beginning
Could be, yes... Still, we need a working 11.1 installation under vmware or virtualbox, then update it to factory. In vmware at least, you can revert all changes to go back to 11.1 and try again.
same in virtualbox, that is the point
But now that I think! Testing a virtual system means that everybody will test the same hardware (the virtual hardware). Than may be not good.
thats why I said "at first" We should have a rock solid distro in virtualbox (virtualbox because it's fee). in it we can test many software configs. After that, of course, we have to test other hardware, but demos are frequently done in virtual support :-) and it's easy to provise a virtual disk to begin with jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 06 March 2009 08:30:09 am Carlos E. R. wrote:
It would be easier if an image of the installed (virtual) system is distributed.
It is 8-10 GB. Once installed make separate copy on another directory. In Virtual box you can create snapshot of status that you want keep and then after test just revert to snapshot. It is faster then to copy back disk image that you have stored.
But now that I think! Testing a virtual system means that everybody will test the same hardware (the virtual hardware). Than may be not good.
Once system works in virtual machine it is easier to test installation and boot on real hardware. You know if something is broken it is hardware related. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Stupid question: what's blocking non-Novell people to implement the features tracked in openFATE?
Have you ever tried to read the kind of answers users and volunteers get when they try to do something? And to think to the complexity of the procedures to contribute to openSUSE? OpenSUSE makes the process of contributing confused and not well documented. It is hard to understand where help is needed (an idea coming soon to try to fix this, I'm working on a wiki page, stay tuned!), and when you ask for that, the usual answer is something between "do what you want" and "it's complicated", which to a new user sounds like we don't need his help, even if the exact opposite is true. Moreover, we have a hard time to communicate something, because the communication is spread too much on different media, with different goals which are not clear to "insiders", and are not clarified by "definitions" written in the wiki. I'm speaking about what goes in bugzilla, what in openFATE, what in one of the too many mailing lists. To conclude, who wants to help in openSUSE has to already know what to do and how to do it. He can't "grow inside the community" over a certain level, because the community is not providing him the tools to do so (documentation, tutorial, information...), which is something other distribution, even if with less resources than us, do quite consistently (see Ubuntu). Regards, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
(replying a bit late, apologies) Le jeudi 05 mars 2009, à 09:42 -0600, Alberto Passalacqua a écrit :
Stupid question: what's blocking non-Novell people to implement the features tracked in openFATE?
Have you ever tried to read the kind of answers users and volunteers get when they try to do something?
If the answers are not welcoming, then we should fix this. When you see this, feel free to ask somebody else to step up and reply with a nicer mail. (of course, there are always cases where people clearly didn't even search for a solution themselves while the solution is the first result in google, and in those cases, we can't do much more than "please search a bit before posting")
And to think to the complexity of the procedures to contribute to openSUSE?
The wiki page you're working on is a good first step. But yes, this is hard. Please note that for "old" contributors, it's sometimes hard to remember what's difficult when you first try to contribute. So reminding them about this doesn't hurt :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2009-03-05 at 10:23 +0100, jdd wrote:
Andreas Jaeger a écrit :
Btw. Peter, it's openSUSE with a small "o",
It's a problem, because in many countries (including France) namles begin uppercase as do first sentence word
Same in Spain. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkmv0QoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UYpQCfShmMkNSw7etJqP1Zg3bxfpyq +fUAn3yeEod2t5iMmS/rqeaq4Qg+1y4c =XW1t -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 09:47:47AM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Thursday 05 March 2009 06:13:51 member greenarrow1 wrote:
[...] I have been reading articles recently about Novell specifically their financial condition and, of course, OpenSUSE. I to am beginning to wonder where OpenSUSE lies with Novell and are we just test subjects for their improvement of SLED and SLES. Is Novell trying to get
You get everything in openSUSE that is in SLED and SLES as well (unless it's closed source software that is not freely redistributable). openSUSE 11.1 contains already nearly everything that SLE{D,S}11 will have and those things that are missing (since SLE gets released later) might hit openSUSE 11.1 as updates or have been added to the factory tree targetting openSUSE 11.2.
openSUSE is an own distribution where we make also changes that are not needed for SLE at all but are needed for the openSUSE community.
"also changes that are not needed for SLE" - alright. But what about *conflicting* changes? (Totally naive question. I can't actually think of an example right now, I'm more conceiving that such conflicts could arise) If we have a plot for dealing with this, it might serve to lessen perveiced risks and concerns that the community might have about this. Peter -- "WARNING: This bug is visible to non-employees. Please be respectful!" SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development
On Thursday 05 March 2009 14:21:18 Peter Poeml wrote:
On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 09:47:47AM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Thursday 05 March 2009 06:13:51 member greenarrow1 wrote:
[...] I have been reading articles recently about Novell specifically their financial condition and, of course, OpenSUSE. I to am beginning to wonder where OpenSUSE lies with Novell and are we just test subjects for their improvement of SLED and SLES. Is Novell trying to get
You get everything in openSUSE that is in SLED and SLES as well (unless it's closed source software that is not freely redistributable). openSUSE 11.1 contains already nearly everything that SLE{D,S}11 will have and those things that are missing (since SLE gets released later) might hit openSUSE 11.1 as updates or have been added to the factory tree targetting openSUSE 11.2.
openSUSE is an own distribution where we make also changes that are not needed for SLE at all but are needed for the openSUSE community.
"also changes that are not needed for SLE" - alright. But what about *conflicting* changes?
(Totally naive question. I can't actually think of an example right now, I'm more conceiving that such conflicts could arise)
Those things we can best discuss with examples: * NetworkManager setup: - SLES way: Always use traditional scripts - SLED way: Always use NM - openSUSE way: Only use NM on laptops, use traditional scripts elsewhere * Short installation with no more questions after the reboot. This is something driven by openSUSE in openSUSE 11.0 and SLES does not use it at all.
If we have a plot for dealing with this, it might serve to lessen perveiced risks and concerns that the community might have about this.
In general, I think many conflicting changes can be solved in single packages with some config changes. So, some extra work - but nothing to stop us. And if there's something where that's not easy possible, we might need some more time... I see openSUSE becoming more freedom in this and if there's something which will help us grow openSUSE, then we should do it. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 02:46:35PM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Thursday 05 March 2009 14:21:18 Peter Poeml wrote:
On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 09:47:47AM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Thursday 05 March 2009 06:13:51 member greenarrow1 wrote:
[...] I have been reading articles recently about Novell specifically their financial condition and, of course, OpenSUSE. I to am beginning to wonder where OpenSUSE lies with Novell and are we just test subjects for their improvement of SLED and SLES. Is Novell trying to get
You get everything in openSUSE that is in SLED and SLES as well (unless it's closed source software that is not freely redistributable). openSUSE 11.1 contains already nearly everything that SLE{D,S}11 will have and those things that are missing (since SLE gets released later) might hit openSUSE 11.1 as updates or have been added to the factory tree targetting openSUSE 11.2.
openSUSE is an own distribution where we make also changes that are not needed for SLE at all but are needed for the openSUSE community.
"also changes that are not needed for SLE" - alright. But what about *conflicting* changes?
(Totally naive question. I can't actually think of an example right now, I'm more conceiving that such conflicts could arise)
Those things we can best discuss with examples: * NetworkManager setup: - SLES way: Always use traditional scripts - SLED way: Always use NM - openSUSE way: Only use NM on laptops, use traditional scripts elsewhere * Short installation with no more questions after the reboot. This is something driven by openSUSE in openSUSE 11.0 and SLES does not use it at all.
Examples help. Yes, I see. I also see the "big bad" example 10.1 package management being mentioned, which admittedly is in the distant past now and I'm sure that everybody appreciates that we have learnt a lot from it.
If we have a plot for dealing with this, it might serve to lessen perveiced risks and concerns that the community might have about this.
In general, I think many conflicting changes can be solved in single packages with some config changes. So, some extra work - but nothing to stop us. And if there's something where that's not easy possible, we might need some more time... I see openSUSE becoming more freedom in this and if there's something which will help us grow openSUSE, then we should do it.
This sounds right, and makes sense to me. What made me ask this is that I somehow felt a gap in your above mail. (The one where you put it like "... also changes that are not needed ..."). There, I found something was missing and unsaid, concerning such a possible conflict of interests. And following this thread, I see this particular concern uttered more than once, so it really concerns people, and it's good to be explicit about this. Showing ways how to constructively deal with the situation, like you just did, is very good. Thanks, Peter -- "WARNING: This bug is visible to non-employees. Please be respectful!" SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development
On Thursday 05 March 2009 14:58:07 Peter Poeml wrote:
On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 02:46:35PM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Thursday 05 March 2009 14:21:18 Peter Poeml wrote:
On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 09:47:47AM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Thursday 05 March 2009 06:13:51 member greenarrow1 wrote:
[...] I have been reading articles recently about Novell specifically their financial condition and, of course, OpenSUSE. I to am beginning to wonder where OpenSUSE lies with Novell and are we just test subjects for their improvement of SLED and SLES. Is Novell trying to get
You get everything in openSUSE that is in SLED and SLES as well (unless it's closed source software that is not freely redistributable). openSUSE 11.1 contains already nearly everything that SLE{D,S}11 will have and those things that are missing (since SLE gets released later) might hit openSUSE 11.1 as updates or have been added to the factory tree targetting openSUSE 11.2.
openSUSE is an own distribution where we make also changes that are not needed for SLE at all but are needed for the openSUSE community.
"also changes that are not needed for SLE" - alright. But what about *conflicting* changes?
(Totally naive question. I can't actually think of an example right now, I'm more conceiving that such conflicts could arise)
Those things we can best discuss with examples: * NetworkManager setup: - SLES way: Always use traditional scripts - SLED way: Always use NM - openSUSE way: Only use NM on laptops, use traditional scripts elsewhere * Short installation with no more questions after the reboot. This is something driven by openSUSE in openSUSE 11.0 and SLES does not use it at all.
Examples help. Yes, I see. I also see the "big bad" example 10.1 package management being mentioned, which admittedly is in the distant past now and I'm sure that everybody appreciates that we have learnt a lot from it.
If we have a plot for dealing with this, it might serve to lessen perveiced risks and concerns that the community might have about this.
In general, I think many conflicting changes can be solved in single packages with some config changes. So, some extra work - but nothing to stop us. And if there's something where that's not easy possible, we might need some more time... I see openSUSE becoming more freedom in this and if there's something which will help us grow openSUSE, then we should do it.
This sounds right, and makes sense to me.
What made me ask this is that I somehow felt a gap in your above mail. (The one where you put it like "... also changes that are not needed ..."). There, I found something was missing and unsaid, concerning such a possible conflict of interests.
And following this thread, I see this particular concern uttered more than once, so it really concerns people, and it's good to be explicit
I understand the concerns, change is not always visible on a daily basis. What I'm asking is to help us overcome these problems and do the right thing in the future.
about this. Showing ways how to constructively deal with the situation, like you just did, is very good.
Thanks, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Torsdag 05 marts 2009 14:58:07 skrev Peter Poeml:
Examples help. Yes, I see. I also see the "big bad" example 10.1 package management being mentioned, which admittedly is in the distant past now and I'm sure that everybody appreciates that we have learnt a lot from it.
I'm not entirely certain something similar couldn't happen again, though it would be difficult to create a disaster on the same scale. I didn't mean that Novell control is necessarily a bad thing. Leadership is needed, as long as the leadership makes the correct decisions ;-) Some other examples are the various legally motivated "limitations" imposed by Novell (p2p, codecs etc.). Or the pretty strange desktop selection situation, which doesn't reflect opensuse community interests imo. Again, I'm not saying it's not understandable that Novell imposes certain things, since they pay the bills. I just tried to explain to vuntz what jdd meant :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Martin Schlander a écrit :
things, since they pay the bills. I just tried to explain to vuntz what jdd meant :-) well understood, thanks jdd
-- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 05 March 2009 10:48:28 am Martin Schlander wrote:
Or the pretty strange desktop selection situation, which doesn't reflect opensuse community interests imo.
Do you mean sort on desktop selection? It is alphabetic =:) To make sure that alphabet is correctly implemented Console is under Other. Even right now with KDE4 in a front row alphabet and popular demand are not corelated. 10.2 KDE 71.8% 17282 GNOME 22.4% 5398 xfce 1.2% 297 Console 1.9% 460 Other (please specify) 2.7% 641 Total Respondents 24078 11.0 KDE3 38.5% 4007 KDE4 29.8% 3109 GNOME 26.9% 2799 xfce 1.1% 117 Console 1.4% 148 Other (please specify) 2.3% 238 answered question 10418 P.S. Few days ago I installed GNOME and everything non-KDE experienced time shift in the past, fontwise. After long attempt to find where are font settings for GTk applications, it was clear that I have not enough expertise to pull things out of past. I gave up, and installed whole thing (11.1) again. Not that I wasn't persistent, I think that I visited all places with strings font, conf, gtk, gtk2, gnome, X11, but nothing helped. I could post the question, but why someone should ask the question to set a default font type? It was bad enough that installation of some packages made Firefox look ugly. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le vendredi 06 mars 2009, à 02:19 -0600, Rajko M. a écrit :
Few days ago I installed GNOME and everything non-KDE experienced time shift in the past, fontwise. After long attempt to find where are font settings for GTk applications, it was clear that I have not enough expertise to pull things out of past. I gave up, and installed whole thing (11.1) again.
Not that I wasn't persistent, I think that I visited all places with strings font, conf, gtk, gtk2, gnome, X11, but nothing helped. I could post the question, but why someone should ask the question to set a default font type?
Weird, first time I hear of such an issue. Did you keep any screenshot so we can at least see what was wrong? (feel free to continue discussing the thread on opensuse-gnome or on irc; we're getting off-topic for this list) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2009/3/5 Peter Poeml <poeml@suse.de>:
On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 09:47:47AM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Thursday 05 March 2009 06:13:51 member greenarrow1 wrote:
[...] I have been reading articles recently about Novell specifically their financial condition and, of course, OpenSUSE. I to am beginning to wonder where OpenSUSE lies with Novell and are we just test subjects for their improvement of SLED and SLES. Is Novell trying to get
You get everything in openSUSE that is in SLED and SLES as well (unless it's closed source software that is not freely redistributable). openSUSE 11.1 contains already nearly everything that SLE{D,S}11 will have and those things that are missing (since SLE gets released later) might hit openSUSE 11.1 as updates or have been added to the factory tree targetting openSUSE 11.2.
openSUSE is an own distribution where we make also changes that are not needed for SLE at all but are needed for the openSUSE community.
"also changes that are not needed for SLE" - alright. But what about *conflicting* changes?
(Totally naive question. I can't actually think of an example right now, I'm more conceiving that such conflicts could arise)
I can. Multimedia support..... Novell is run under US. Patent laws. This definitely reduces the distributions usefulness for a lot of non-nerd users. Also Yast for media-server, home server etc. is not on SLE's list I guess. But should definitely be on the openSUSE Yast implementation. Birger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi! On Štvrtok 05 March 2009 19:19:32 Birger Kollstrand wrote:
2009/3/5 Peter Poeml <poeml@suse.de>:
On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 09:47:47AM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Thursday 05 March 2009 06:13:51 member greenarrow1 wrote:
[...]
"also changes that are not needed for SLE" - alright. But what about *conflicting* changes?
(Totally naive question. I can't actually think of an example right now, I'm more conceiving that such conflicts could arise)
I can. Multimedia support..... Novell is run under US. Patent laws. This definitely reduces the distributions usefulness for a lot of non-nerd users. Also Yast for media-server, home server etc. is not on SLE's list I guess. But should definitely be on the openSUSE Yast implementation.
What do you mean by "Yast for media-server"? Stano P.S. It's YaST ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2009/3/6 Stanislav Visnovsky <visnov@suse.cz>:
Hi!
On Štvrtok 05 March 2009 19:19:32 Birger Kollstrand wrote:
2009/3/5 Peter Poeml <poeml@suse.de>:
On Thu, Mar 05, 2009 at 09:47:47AM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Thursday 05 March 2009 06:13:51 member greenarrow1 wrote:
[...]
"also changes that are not needed for SLE" - alright. But what about *conflicting* changes?
(Totally naive question. I can't actually think of an example right now, I'm more conceiving that such conflicts could arise)
I can. Multimedia support..... Novell is run under US. Patent laws. This definitely reduces the distributions usefulness for a lot of non-nerd users. Also Yast for media-server, home server etc. is not on SLE's list I guess. But should definitely be on the openSUSE Yast implementation.
What do you mean by "Yast for media-server"?
Stano
P.S. It's YaST ;-)
YaST, openSUSE whatever :-) A YaST module that would configure a Upnp , DLNA server for use in the home. ( Prefereably should it be possible to also set up on the fly transcoding based on incomming device. My Nokia N95 and my familys PS3 deos not use the same format :-) ) There are a number of candidate projects that make these servers and I believe it would be a good idea for openSUSE to cooperate with oe of them. The reason for asking for a YaST module is to have a consistent user expereince for the home user managing all these digital services. Please no discussion her on Upnp security...... That is not the point in this context. Birger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 3/6/2009 at 12:43, Birger Kollstrand <birger.kollstrand@googlemail.com> wrote: A YaST module that would configure a Upnp , DLNA server for use in the home. ( Prefereably should it be possible to also set up on the fly transcoding based on incomming device. My Nokia N95 and my familys PS3 deos not use the same format :-) ) There are a number of candidate projects that make these servers and I believe it would be a good idea for openSUSE to cooperate with oe of them.
The reason for asking for a YaST module is to have a consistent user expereince for the home user managing all these digital services.
You're one step to fast I'm afraid for such a thing. I like the idea of having a YaST module to configure the UPnP Media server... but before anybody can develop a config frontend, we probably would have to decide what media server we can include... Only then can we start thinking about how to configure that service. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2009/3/6 Dominique Leuenberger <Dominique.Leuenberger@tmf-group.com>:
On 3/6/2009 at 12:43, Birger Kollstrand <birger.kollstrand@googlemail.com> wrote: A YaST module that would configure a Upnp , DLNA server for use in the home. ( Prefereably should it be possible to also set up on the fly transcoding based on incomming device. My Nokia N95 and my familys PS3 deos not use the same format :-) ) There are a number of candidate projects that make these servers and I believe it would be a good idea for openSUSE to cooperate with oe of them.
The reason for asking for a YaST module is to have a consistent user expereince for the home user managing all these digital services.
You're one step to fast I'm afraid for such a thing.
I like the idea of having a YaST module to configure the UPnP Media server... but before anybody can develop a config frontend, we probably would have to decide what media server we can include...
Only then can we start thinking about how to configure that service.
Yes, but that can be part of the process. Do you have any preferences? I have been using Mediatomb a bit, but it has been shaky. I have also tried the ps3mediaserver, but not enough to get a good feel for it. Coherence looks interesting, but I have only read about it.... Birger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 3/7/2009 at 0:04, Birger Kollstrand <birger.kollstrand@googlemail.com> wrote: Yes, but that can be part of the process. Do you have any preferences?
It has to be the first step... The Admin Interface is an addon and creating that one depend heavily on what backend would be chosen.
I have been using Mediatomb a bit, but it has been shaky. I have also tried the ps3mediaserver, but not enough to get a good feel for it. Coherence looks interesting, but I have only read about it....
I'm using MediaTomb myself and did not have any major problems with it (Streaming to PS3). But then, I did not try any others yet (Except myth.. which did not fit me at all). Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 5 Mar 2009, Peter Poeml wrote:
"also changes that are not needed for SLE" - alright. But what about *conflicting* changes?
(Totally naive question. I can't actually think of an example right now, I'm more conceiving that such conflicts could arise)
It is somewhat hard to discuss something like this on general grounds. Having some examples in the back would help. That said, since you are asking explicitly...
If we have a plot for dealing with this, it might serve to lessen perveiced risks and concerns that the community might have about this.
...this is a simple one: If such a case really arises (and I cannot imagine one at this point, but let's assume there may be one) Novell will shoulder the effort and cost on the SLE side. As a corollary, we (Novell) may not activtely engage on the openSUSE side of this coin, so we (openSUSE community) may have to step up. That is very different from blocking such a change, however, and a sign of a vital community in fact. Does that address your questions? Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Inbound Product Mgmt T +49(911)74053-0 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) openSUSE/SUSE Linux Enterprise F +49(911)74053-483 GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
member greenarrow1 escribió:
Is Novell trying to get computer makers to place SLED on their systems and where does that take OpenSUSE in this area?
Well, it natural that Novell wants to place SLED in this market, that's where the money comes from .. or you think salaries and bills gets paid with candybars ?
If we push to hard and users start adopting OpenSUSE and Novell loses users for SLED what will Novell do with OpenSUSE?
it is not going to loose anything, people that actually need SLED pay for long term support... an in the event that your scenario becomes true, Novell could sell more support for openSUSE as well.(the old supply/demand thing) -- "If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed" -George Carlin (1937-2008) Cristian Rodríguez R. Software Developer Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/
On Wednesday 04 March 2009 03:01:29 pm Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
What is even worse , according to this http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7255 the only netbook to carry any version of SuSE is now not doing so, that is 7 out of 7 running something other than SuSE. No netbooks for my family this year ;) This is an important detail to me as these are largely going into children's hands and umm, I started the openSUSE EDU project. Please lets help HP and Lenovo come home!
How do you think openSUSE can make it on netbooks if Novell is pushing SLE there, clearly not understanding that the target user is different, and, as a consequence, people is not interested in an enterprise desktop, but wants something more flexible?
Just to add: newer OS, multimedia capable, cheaper than enterprize version. No need for support contracts, just online updates and forums will suffice.
Another consideration is that to push openSUSE on netbooks, Novell would have to grant level of qualities of two distributions, SLE and openSUSE, while currently they have formally no obligation with respect to openSUSE.
In other words, I don't see any chance for openSUSE on netbooks if Novell doesn't wake up from the "Enterprise only" dream, and starts concentrating also on _actually_ making openSUSE what its slogan say: "The most usable Linux for home users". In this respect, I am very interested on the focus discussion, which should start sooner or later, about openSUSE goals.
Big companies have inertia that is not easy to overcome, and also it is not possible to fix openSUSE reputation overnight. Apropos goals: It is also hard to achieve anything sticking to model that works good for long time Linux users that don't mind fixing things. World is changing, average linux (computer) user skills are now all, but computer related. From few comments here and my humble experience main Ubuntu's strength is understanding that mainstream computer users don't care how computer works. They don't want to fix it, they want to use it. This is nothing specific to Linux, or even computers. First cars were driven by people that knew how to fix them, now average driver has no idea how motor works, even replacing tire is a kind of skill. First TV users were able to open the box and replace tube, now average has no idea what to do with all buttons on remote. BTW, remote control is example of design that is good for demanding users and those that need only power, channel and volume control. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
OK, I am sorry I ever spoke up. I am Novell. I make my living believing in and supporting the overall values and imagination employed in the creation of every product it sells. My reason for speaking was merely to help motivate the improvements necessary for OEM's to see openSUSE in the same light it does Ubuntu but with one large advantage, the ability to upgrade to a truly magnificent enterprise version from a truly magnificent community version. I was hoping to inspire the notion that if SLED is to be the rock solid undeniably enterprise ready version why couldn't openSUSE at least be as off the shelf functional as Ubuntu (baring non-oss inclusions). I don't like being second place merely because I forgot to cross the "T's" and dot the "i's" and lets face it, that has been the biggest issue since 10.2 was released because Novell and the community are doing so well. Now I'm not saying it's possible to do all that crossing and doting at release but a hardened version or a 10.3 with all the last changes released as a "10 Final" would not hurt us or Novell. It would merely increase the curiosity with regard to the question "if the community version is this good, why not get support and all the non-oss stuff for xx$, on my next PC?" It's our duty to find a way to keep the libre\free version of SUSE as close to enterprise as possible without stealing it's thunder. We have to find a BETTER blend of reliability and pioneering edge. James -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 06 March 2009 06:26:08 pm James Tremblay aka SLEducator wrote:
... I was hoping to inspire the notion that if SLED is to be the rock solid undeniably enterprise ready version why couldn't openSUSE at least be as off the shelf functional as Ubuntu (baring non-oss inclusions). I don't like being second place merely because I forgot to cross the "T's" and dot the "i's" and lets face it, that has been the biggest issue since 10.2 was released because Novell and the community are doing so well. Now I'm not saying it's possible to do all that crossing and doting at release but a hardened version or a 10.3 with all the last changes released as a "10 Final" would not hurt us or Novell. It would merely increase the curiosity with regard to the question "if the community version is this good, why not get support and all the non-oss stuff for xx$, on my next PC?"
It's our duty to find a way to keep the libre\free version of SUSE as close to enterprise as possible without stealing it's thunder. We have to find a BETTER blend of reliability and pioneering edge.
I'm glad that you posted the question, because my feeling is that all that is missing can't be better described then you did. It is actually small effort to think from layman prospective and give him safe start point. The rest of us will find our way as we always did. One possible way to make openSUSE more attractive with very little effort would be to periodically release new DVD/CD that will contain all bug fixes. We have anyway bunch of development DVDs, one more, call it Remaster, would not take much more time to create, not that much effort as it did before. Updating of both DVDs, new that can be downloaded, and old that people may find in magazines, or on shelves, will go as usually. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2009-02-06 at 14:45 -0500, James Tremblay aka SLEducator wrote:
I believe that openSUSE would have been just as good a fit on a netbook as this: http://blogs.zdnet.com/gadgetreviews/?p=1221&tag=nl.e539 I think the reason things like this keep going Ubuntu is not that Ubuntu is better but that LTS
1. Ubuntu is more widely-known. 2. No OEM support for openSUSE from Novell. -- Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy - openSUSE Member Public Mail: <kevin.dupuy@opensuse.org> Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays from the Yeaux! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2009/2/6 James Tremblay aka SLEducator <fxrsliberty@opensuse.us>:
I think the reason things like this keep going Ubuntu is not that Ubuntu is better but that LTS makes Ubuntu more usable and more re-installable because its less update intensive.
HP have a lot of Debian experience, ironically at http://lwn.net/Articles/318270/ there's discussion about the lack of Ubuntu branding. Ubuntu LTS gets point release updates. Security updates are also free, no subscription. In long term Ubuntu getting foot in door via desktop with a solid system, is going to get them into the server room, and income generating contracts, rather than deployments which cost.
It's our duty to find a way to keep the libre\free version of SUSE as close to enterprise as possible without stealing it's thunder. We have to find a blend of reliability and pioneering edge. SLED moves to slow for personal usage yet, IMHO , openSUSE seems to move to fast.
On forum, new Linux users are getting unsettled and confused by bugs, and useability nits. Experienced users are often turning off the newer features that cause issues, or bloat eg) Pulse Audio, Beagle etc To me openSUSE's strengths are : o On Desktop, enhanced GNOME, enhanced & most polished KDE 3. OTOH KDE 4.1 with backports with KDE 4.2 so soon after our release, seems to have missed the market. o YaST & zypper, very simple hardware configuration, but very flexible. Hand hacks still an option with a little care. Configuring a dual NIC machine with Ubuntu tools was not straightforward, and involved rolling sleeves up, getting into detailed config o General technical excellence, and contributing to the "state of the art" But how to translate that into a short term user benefit? o General Purpose, so time invested on transferable skills For some reason, zypper & YaST are not fully appreciated, the meme "apt is better than rpm" is rather entrenched, and repeated by Magazine journalists. When I actually did my evaluation, I was shocked by Debian's issues with over-lapping tools, non-unified dependency calculations causing gotcha's, and noted the user base, weren't switching over to the recommended tool (aptitude) but using CLI. Perhaps we can focus on perceived useability issues in YaST modules, and do performance comparisons, but changing peoples minds is always hard, even when you're loaded with solid facts. The weak point of an LTS, with frozen software, is that it supports less and less new hardware. To really overcome the perceived #1 statuses of Fedora/Red Hat & Ubuntu in different fields, don't we have to find something significantly better, that pre-disposes folk running proprietary UNIX or Windows to consider OS & SLE as a front runner? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2009/2/7 Rob OpenSuSE <rob.opensuse.linux@googlemail.com>:
2009/2/6 James Tremblay aka SLEducator <fxrsliberty@opensuse.us>:
For some reason, zypper & YaST are not fully appreciated, the meme "apt is better than rpm" is rather entrenched, and repeated by Magazine journalists. When I actually did my evaluation, I was shocked by Debian's issues with over-lapping tools, non-unified dependency calculations causing gotcha's, and noted the user base, weren't switching over to the recommended tool (aptitude) but using CLI.
That was misleading, aptitude is a CLI & curses based tool. Most were using the apt form of commands, due to weight of HOWTOs and habits. The live updating of desktop, like KDE appeared to work less well than it does in OS, but those discussing the issues just "knew that rpm distros would be worse", and they'll not find out the real facts, as the commnities tend to be closed and self reinforcing. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Rob OpenSuSE wrote:
2009/2/6 James Tremblay aka SLEducator <fxrsliberty@opensuse.us>:
I think the reason things like this keep going Ubuntu is not that Ubuntu is better but that LTS makes Ubuntu more usable and more re-installable because its less update intensive.
HP have a lot of Debian experience, ironically at http://lwn.net/Articles/318270/ there's discussion about the lack of Ubuntu branding.
Ubuntu LTS gets point release updates. Security updates are also free, no subscription.
In long term Ubuntu getting foot in door via desktop with a solid system, is going to get them into the server room, and income generating contracts, rather than deployments which cost.
I completely agree and this is what drives my "Joe Plumber" comments.
It's our duty to find a way to keep the libre\free version of SUSE as close to enterprise as possible without stealing it's thunder. We have to find a blend of reliability and pioneering edge. SLED moves to slow for personal usage yet, IMHO , openSUSE seems to move to fast.
On forum, new Linux users are getting unsettled and confused by bugs, and useability nits. Experienced users are often turning off the newer features that cause issues, or bloat eg) Pulse Audio, Beagle etc
I'm one of those who turned off\uninstalled Pulse also I usually ignore Beagle and use the "gnome File Search" tool. Mind you , I don't know enough GREP to save my life.
To me openSUSE's strengths are :
o On Desktop, enhanced GNOME, enhanced & most polished KDE 3. OTOH KDE 4.1 with backports with KDE 4.2 so soon after our release, seems to have missed the market. o YaST & zypper, very simple hardware configuration, but very flexible. Hand hacks still an option with a little care. Configuring a dual NIC machine with Ubuntu tools was not straightforward, and involved rolling sleeves up, getting into detailed config o General technical excellence, and contributing to the "state of the art" But how to translate that into a short term user benefit? o General Purpose, so time invested on transferable skills
For some reason, zypper & YaST are not fully appreciated, the meme "apt is better than rpm" is rather entrenched, and repeated by Magazine journalists. When I actually did my evaluation, I was shocked by Debian's issues with over-lapping tools, non-unified dependency calculations causing gotcha's, and noted the user base, weren't switching over to the recommended tool (aptitude) but using CLI. Perhaps we can focus on perceived useability issues in YaST modules, and do performance comparisons, but changing peoples minds is always hard, even when you're loaded with solid facts.
The weak point of an LTS, with frozen software, is that it supports less and less new hardware.
I don't think it's as important as you think to keep hardware support up to date on the LTS, We want the guy who says I'm fraking tired of malware\viruses and registry hacks. Get openSUSE to load mindlessly on the PC he bought 2-3 years ago, then when we have his heart and mind , what do you think he will look for when he buys new? AN OEM that supports SUSE of course! The guys in education that I work with never run the newest version of Ubuntu they all run either the current LTS or the previous one. Why? because we all have older hardware. look in the forums for problems with 1-3 year old hardware versus 0-1 year old stuff.
To really overcome the perceived #1 statuses of Fedora/Red Hat & Ubuntu in different fields, don't we have to find something significantly better, that pre-disposes folk running proprietary UNIX or Windows to consider OS & SLE as a front runner?
Find something significantly better? No , YaST IS significantly better, is it helping? We need to produce something significantly more usable, Significantly more reliable when it comes to the expected output of an installation and significantly less visible after installation. Joe Plumber does not care that gnome is stale or that Banshee is missing MP5 support as long as the function he expects is there. What concerns Joe is the ability to install or update a particular function when he needs it, not his entire installation. Why do you think so many people resist change? Why was XP given a stay of execution. Why don't people quit jobs they hate? Because change = work! -- James Tremblay openSIS Product Specialist http://www.os4ed.com CNE 3,4,5 MCSE w2k CLE in training Registered Linux user #440182 http://en.opensuse.org/education -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2009/2/9 James Tremblay aka SLEducator <fxrsliberty@opensuse.us>:
The weak point of an LTS, with frozen software, is that it supports less and less new hardware.
I don't think it's as important as you think to keep hardware support up to date on the LTS, We want the guy who says I'm fraking tired of malware\viruses and registry hacks.
I see where you're coming from, but sometimes folk upgrade their systems with new graphics cards, or need to replace parts. Adding devices with USB to. To me it's not unsurmountable, if an 'advanced' kernel was made easily available, with a 'fallback' for installing and tide over till regression is fixed when the 'recommended' doesn't work.
To really overcome the perceived #1 statuses of Fedora/Red Hat & Ubuntu in different fields, don't we have to find something significantly better, that pre-disposes folk running proprietary UNIX or Windows to consider OS & SLE as a front runner?
Find something significantly better? No , YaST IS significantly better, is it helping? We need to produce something significantly more usable, Significantly more reliable when it comes to the expected output of an installation and significantly less visible after installation. Joe Plumber does not care that gnome is stale or that Banshee is missing MP5 support as long as the function he expects is there. What concerns Joe is the ability to install or update a particular function when he needs it, not his entire installation. Why do you think so many people resist change? Why was XP given a stay of execution. Why don't people quit jobs they hate? Because change = work!
Not enough to be significantly technically better, but also need to get the message out and understood. I read a shocking review in PC Plus for instance on the new 11.1, as it was a mish-mash of general criticism which in my mind don't stand up (at level apt > rpm), own configuration tools that only SuSE users like and such. The thing is, it does no good just quietly being superior and fix useability nits, if nobody else notices, because they are ill equipped to share what seems obvious to us. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
James Tremblay aka SLEducator wrote:
Rob OpenSuSE wrote:
2009/2/6 James Tremblay aka SLEducator <fxrsliberty@opensuse.us>:
<< snippage >>
For some reason, zypper & YaST are not fully appreciated, the meme "apt is better than rpm" is rather entrenched, and repeated by Magazine journalists. When I actually did my evaluation, I was shocked by Debian's issues with over-lapping tools, non-unified dependency calculations causing gotcha's, and noted the user base, weren't switching over to the recommended tool (aptitude) but using CLI. Perhaps we can focus on perceived useability issues in YaST modules, and do performance comparisons, but changing peoples minds is always hard, even when you're loaded with solid facts.
The odd thing is that apt IS placed at an equal level with rpm. They aren't equivalent. rpm and dpkg are. apt and maybe zypper are equivalent. Synaptic and yast2 equals. synaptic = yast2 = gui interface for packages and system apt = zypper = command line interface for packages dpkg = rpm = package manager itself In Ubuntu/Debian land the package manager itself is so seldom talked to even long time Debian users haven't been able to tell me much about it. At one time I was interested in something like rpm's -V option for verification of installed packages in dpkg. There doesn't seem to be one, which I feel is a severe lack in terms of system maintenance. zypper is relatively new but even so better documentation in the form of man pages or a --help option. I dunno, these are just my observations, worth what you paid for them. And if there is documentation I'll just say "Never mind" and read them if you tell me where :) Bruce -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 09 February 2009 10:42:53 am Bruce Ferrell wrote: ...
zypper is relatively new but even so better documentation in the form of man pages or a --help option.
I dunno, these are just my observations, worth what you paid for them. And if there is documentation I'll just say "Never mind" and read them if you tell me where :)
man zypper should be comprehensive zypper --help and zypper <command> --help sould be what zypper user needs as a fast reference. Unsupported options, in development, are not documented. Also: http://en.opensuse.org/Zypper not checked how current are articles. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Rob OpenSuSE escribió:
For some reason, zypper & YaST are not fully appreciated, the meme "apt is better than rpm"
Which is of course BS, if comparisions are made, then they have to be done "deb" vs "rpm", comparing apt with rpm is like comparing pears with apples.. is rather entrenched, and repeated by
Magazine journalists.
Well.. there is a massive lack of clue among Journalists ... nothing to see there... Perhaps we can focus on perceived useability issues in YaST
modules, and do performance comparisons, but changing peoples minds is always hard, even when you're loaded with solid facts.
The problem is that "YaST" is/was judged based on the perceived current/past problems of some of it modules, not as a complete setup tool.. even more, some of those problems are in stuff completely unrelated to Yast... -- "If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed" -George Carlin (1937-2008) Cristian Rodríguez R. Software Developer Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/
participants (23)
-
Alberto Passalacqua -
Andreas Jaeger -
Birger Kollstrand -
Bruce Ferrell -
Bryen -
Carlos E. R. -
Cristian Rodríguez -
Dominique Leuenberger -
Eric Springer -
Gerald Pfeifer -
Henne Vogelsang -
James Tremblay aka SLEducator -
jdd -
Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier -
Kevin Dupuy -
Martin Schlander -
member greenarrow1 -
Peter Poeml -
Rajko M. -
Rob OpenSuSE -
Stanislav Visnovsky -
Thomas Schraitle -
Vincent Untz