Torsdag den 17. juni 2010 17:45:34 skrev Stephan Kulow:

Am Donnerstag 17 Juni 2010 schrieb Pavol Rusnak:

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On 06/17/2010 04:46 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

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openSUSE - #1 KDE distribution

In the end we'll vote for the best strategy. I guess we will want to have at least 50% or maybe 66% of votes as a pass criteria (this is not decided yet). I guess this strategy will fail reaching that.

Hmm, why do you think that? I consider the chances of this strategy higher than "build derivatives which includes remote system administration". As a matter of fact, I wonder on what base the strategies were picked on

I have to agree with Coolo. Frankly I'm a little confused and disappointed by the three proposed strategies. One thing that I thought was to be taken for granted from the beginning, is that openSUSE is supposed to be a general purpose operating system for server, desktop, laptop and netbook. What needed to be done was to decide how to diversify ourselves from other general purpose operating systems and define a target audience. But "developers", "derivate makers" or "cloud lovers" are all extremely narrow, niche target audiences. I can't support either one of those in their current form. My suggestion would have been something along the lines of: "openSUSE: The powerful distribution for the productive user" That strategy would be so great because: 1) It's not too broad, but not too narrow either 2) It's in line with what SLE is about 3) It's pretty close to what SuSE has been historically This "position" is available because Ubuntu targets the übern00bs and Fedora targets the geeks - no gratis/community distro really targets people that want to be productive and get things done, without things being either too experimental or too dumbed down. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hi Alberto. ...

I cannot support a strategy that says "openSUSE - The KDE distribution", simply because I find it (again) disrespectful of what the other side (GNOME) did and is doing. It is time to move on, and targeting KDE means imho targeting desktop users, many of which use GNOME, of which we already have a very good implementation. Maybe we should leverage it more.

Yes, the wording may be better, but it's at least clear :) And other distributions like Ubuntu or Fedora only support ONE major desktop environment, too. Of course there is Kubuntu (which is mainly community driven) and a Fedora KDE spin, but their focus is GNOME. So let's be different :) Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 17 June 2010 19:08:28 Martin Schlander wrote:

Torsdag den 17. juni 2010 17:45:34 skrev Stephan Kulow:

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Am Donnerstag 17 Juni 2010 schrieb Pavol Rusnak:

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On 06/17/2010 04:46 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

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openSUSE - #1 KDE distribution

In the end we'll vote for the best strategy. I guess we will want to have at least 50% or maybe 66% of votes as a pass criteria (this is not decided yet). I guess this strategy will fail reaching that.

Hmm, why do you think that? I consider the chances of this strategy higher than "build derivatives which includes remote system administration". As a matter of fact, I wonder on what base the strategies were picked on

I have to agree with Coolo. Frankly I'm a little confused and disappointed by the three proposed strategies.

One thing that I thought was to be taken for granted from the beginning, is that openSUSE is supposed to be a general purpose operating system for server, desktop, laptop and netbook.

That is precisely what we didn't do. One main driver for the process we used to come up with proposals is that when you define a strategy, that strategy cannot be "everything and the kitchen sink", which is certainly what we are trying to do right now, because there are no clear objectives/goals (strategy? ;)). The question at the core of this is whether we believe that with the current contributor base, it is realistic to try to be everything to everyone. Now, I don't want to straw man here, and obviously we cannot _literally_ do everything. But, to come back to what you wrote: is it realistic to believe that with our current contributor base, we can make openSUSE "a general purpose operating system for server, desktop, laptop and netbook" ? Do we have enough contributors ? Sure, one way or another, we will heavily focus on trying to gain more contributors, as it is objectively something we're not particularly good at. There are many reasons to that. A very interesting and useful topic which we'll have to discuss, just not right now on these threads ;) (let's try to keep focused :)) Personally, I believe that we have a huge potential but that the amount of active contributors isn't all that great, as so many things stand on the shoulders of "a few" (relatively speaking, it ain't catastrophic either). It could be a much more enjoyable undertaking if we had more contributors doing more things, as well as spreading the load across more people. As we manage to attract more contributors, we could of course widen the scope of the distribution, through subprojects, more packages, spin-offs, etc.., whatever. But right now, and if we take as a valid presumption that we don't quite have enough contributors to do a "general purpose operating system for server, desktop, laptop and netbook", the only remaining option is to reduce the scope, and focus on certain domains. I hope that clarifies a bit why we proceeded that way.

What needed to be done was to decide how to diversify ourselves from other general purpose operating systems and define a target audience. But "developers", "derivate makers" or "cloud lovers" are all extremely narrow, niche target audiences. I can't support either one of those in their current form.

From our last survey, "developers" is the most prominent part of our current audience. Note that "derivative makers" isn't a target audience in that proposal. It is a strategy in order to attract more contributors and have many features, but all (and that's the most important part in that proposal) around a strong, well supported, stable "openSUSE core". As we believe that we currently don't have enough contributors to keep the complete set of stuff in our distro with the high level of quality we all value so much, one proposal is to reduce it.

My suggestion would have been something along the lines of: "openSUSE: The powerful distribution for the productive user"

That strategy would be so great because: 1) It's not too broad, but not too narrow either

Mmmm... to me, it's not very useful either, because it's so broad that it doesn't mean anything :)

2) It's in line with what SLE is about

Why would we care about SLE ?

3) It's pretty close to what SuSE has been historically

Yes, that's true. But we believe that it isn't really sustainable without sacrificing quality and innovation.

This "position" is available because Ubuntu targets the übern00bs and Fedora targets the geeks - no gratis/community distro really targets people that want to be productive and get things done, without things being either too experimental or too dumbed down.

Correct, but that level of quality, stability, applies to each of the proposals. cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@opensuse.org> /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::6+7 Feb 2010, Brussels, http://fosdem.org

Torsdag den 17. juni 2010 20:42:25 skrev Pascal Bleser:

On Thursday 17 June 2010 19:08:28 Martin Schlander wrote:

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One thing that I thought was to be taken for granted from the beginning, is that openSUSE is supposed to be a general purpose operating system for server, desktop, laptop and netbook.

That is precisely what we didn't do. One main driver for the process we used to come up with proposals is that when you define a strategy, that strategy cannot be "everything and the kitchen sink", which is certainly what we are trying to do right now, because there are no clear objectives/goals (strategy? ;)).

I don't think that's being everything for everyone. It's cutting off handheld devices, weird minority architectures, ancient computers, toasters and other stuff some people think openSUSE should support. And desktops, laptops and netbooks are pretty much the same thing anyway - so you might as well just say "server and desktop" really.

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My suggestion would have been something along the lines of: "openSUSE: The powerful distribution for the productive user"

That strategy would be so great because: 1) It's not too broad, but not too narrow either

Mmmm... to me, it's not very useful either, because it's so broad that it doesn't mean anything :)

It's a lot more narrow than what we have now ("the world's most usable linux"). But granted, it's not as narrow as making openSUSE a small specialist distro targetting one small niche of users only.

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2) It's in line with what SLE is about

Why would we care about SLE ?

Our largest contributor/sponsor cares a great deal about SLE, it would be better for everybody if the openSUSE and SLE relationship is as symbiotic as possible. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hi all. Note: added wiki page for the proposal. Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 17/06/2010 20:42, Pascal Bleser a écrit :

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One thing that I thought was to be taken for granted from the beginning, is that openSUSE is supposed to be a general purpose operating system for server, desktop, laptop and netbook.

That is precisely what we didn't do.

??? I think SuSE already did, and openSUSE do already!! why reduce our goals? Did you notice we have a *new* default config (lxde) afaik mostly done by contributors? I have desktop openSUSE *and* openSUSE server, *and* laptop openSUSE of my own, and certainly don't want to have Debian as server, openSUSE as desktop and so on...

The question at the core of this is whether we believe that with the current contributor base, it is realistic to try to be everything to everyone.

our base is shared between these parts, if we cut one we cut our base. and smaller base (servers) is also the more productive as contributors! If openSUSE become only a kde distro, I will certainly switch to Debian, because I *need* the same one as server and desktop.

desktop, laptop and netbook", the only remaining option is to reduce the scope, and focus on certain domains.

this is certainly a dead end

From our last survey, "developers" is the most prominent part of our current audience.

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My suggestion would have been something along the lines of: "openSUSE: The powerful distribution for the productive user"

well, this don't mean anything. One can be productive in any part of the data processing world. Computers are used in various business: * desktop, office * It rooms (servers)4 * mobile units (on the road) and these need various linux setup, but the same productivity... don't also underestimate the work done upstream (do we have to do all in kde? why have an openSUSE branding?) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 17 June 2010 23:33:56 Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 5:12 PM, jdd <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:

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Le 17/06/2010 20:42, Pascal Bleser a écrit :

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One thing that I thought was to be taken for granted from the beginning, is that openSUSE is supposed to be a general purpose operating system for server, desktop, laptop and netbook.

That is precisely what we didn't do.

???

I think SuSE already did, and openSUSE do already!! why reduce our goals?

Because we believe that we cannot sustain the current model ad eternam. At least certainly not without more contributors (which is what I explained in my post). Maybe that's wrong ? We might of course very well end up with a strategy like what Martin proposed. But we will also have to discuss and see how realistic it is.

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Did you notice we have a *new* default config (lxde) afaik mostly done by contributors?

Of course I did. And it was pretty much a one man show as far as I could see. On the other hand, we need more contributors on the maintenance, and on maintaining packages and quality in Factory, etc...

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I have desktop openSUSE *and* openSUSE server, *and* laptop openSUSE of my own, and certainly don't want to have Debian as server, openSUSE as desktop and so on...

I don't know why you're implying that. The idea behind the approach we followed is that we would like to identify - what must be the main target/purpose of what we do, what we should be excellent at (e.g. developer tools, be a good server environment, or a stable and reduced core system, or compatibility and tooling in a mobile environment, or our KDE desktop, or .....) - what we need to be good at nevertheless (e.g. polished desktop, having several desktops, also provide a solid server system, ....) - what we will not do at all (e.g. not target embedded systems, not having PPC builds, not care about netbooks, not care about desktop integration, not having several desktops, not grow the amount of packages in factory, etc...) (I'm not saying I support all those things, they're merely *examples*) And that's what the whole process and discussion is going to be about, identify those. And then see what can realistically be done. And then discuss _how_ :)

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The question at the core of this is whether we believe that with the current contributor base, it is realistic to try to be everything to everyone.

our base is shared between these parts, if we cut one we cut our base. and smaller base (servers) is also the more productive as contributors!

Well that's a point indeed. Fine. If most people believe we shouldn't, then we won't. That's what we're going to discuss. But by being everything and the kitchen sync and not succeeding at doing so isn't good either, as it creates frustration amongst those contributors who have an interest in a specific domain which cannot be properly supported by what we do.

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If openSUSE become only a kde distro, I will certainly switch to Debian, because I *need* the same one as server and desktop.

That's your opinion, your priorities, and that's fine. Just because Marcus made a proposal (which doesn't include not being a solid server platform too, by the way) doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be what most will vote for.

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desktop, laptop and netbook", the only remaining option is to reduce the scope, and focus on certain domains.

this is certainly a dead end

We believe that doing _everything_ is the dead end, because we currently don't have enough contributors to sustain that model. (well, sort of model, we currently don't really have a strategy at all :)) But again, you are implying a lot of things no one ever said. It's not because e.g. we would focus on our KDE desktop that openSUSE wouldn't still be well suited for servers.

I 100% agree with jdd, cross platform compatibility is key. I use linux on servers, workstations and laptops, and possibly a future netbook.

Sure, me too.

I have no desire to learn 3 sets of admin tools so I can run OS on the workstation and CentOS (etc.) on the server, and some light desktop on the laptop/desktop.

Don't support a strategy that would mean focusing on only the desktop then ;) (but again, I don't think that it's what Marcus meant -- defining what our main focus is doesn't mean we're not doing anything else -- even though we should also identify a few things we won't do at all). [...] cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@opensuse.org> /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::6+7 Feb 2010, Brussels, http://fosdem.org

On Thursday 17 June 2010 20:42:25 Pascal Bleser wrote:

[...] That is precisely what we didn't do. One main driver for the process we used to come up with proposals is that when you define a strategy, that strategy cannot be "everything and the kitchen sink", which is certainly what we are trying to do right now, because there are no clear objectives/goals (strategy? ;)).

Just one example: If we look at the distribution, we choose a number of defaults and also offer an option to change some - but not all - of them. These decision were done with an implicit image of a default target audience in mind but since it's not written down, it's different for each of us here and thus question about whether to do this or that change to e.g. the installation can be controversial. If we have a strategy and a target audience, it should help us to answer those questions more easily. right now, if you install the openSUSE distribution, you get a desktop system - so, desktop users are our target audience. We do try to cater all the other needs as well and that causes us often quite a lot of headache. A strategy should help us get rid of some headache ;) Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Hi Pavol.

The strategy is not about where we are NOW, but where we want to be in, let's say 5 years. Apple fanboys didn't scream that they want a midsize device year ago and now they are buying it like crazy (and the competition is copying).

If you want to signify the Mobile/MeeGo strategy, I think KDE is the perfect combination. Nokia has clearly stated that they will extend QT support an maybe even port the clutter'ed ui to QT somewhen. Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

** Reply Requested by 6/17/2010 (Thursday) ** Could be a silly question but why not mono instead of java? Not many developers? not much investiment from others companies, distros?

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Marcus Moeller <mail@marcus-moeller.de> 17 Junho, 2010 >>> Hi again,

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openSUSE - #1 KDE distribution

In the end we'll vote for the best strategy. I guess we will want to have at least 50% or maybe 66% of votes as a pass criteria (this is not decided yet). I guess this strategy will fail reaching that.

So you are my 'Glaskugelleser' of the day. /me wonders why we do a survey if you already know the results. Besides that the KDE default openFATE sais something else: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

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* Offer the best platform for QT/KDE AND Java developers

What is the connection between KDE and Java? Why Java in Excellence list for this strategy?

Okay, that's a personal wish. I would like to see more Java (and even Ruby) Plasma applets. Best Regards Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 17 June 2010 17:47:32 Marcus Moeller wrote:

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openSUSE - #1 KDE distribution

In the end we'll vote for the best strategy. I guess we will want to have at least 50% or maybe 66% of votes as a pass criteria (this is not decided yet). I guess this strategy will fail reaching that.

So you are my 'Glaskugelleser' of the day. /me wonders why we do a survey if you already know the results.

Hm, no need to get rude and make excessive interpretations here. Pavol merely said that _in his opinion_ your proposal wouldn't have enough votes. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it as an option, and it might turn out differently.

Besides that the KDE default openFATE sais something else: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Uh, please, let's not go there. Not again. That thing is not as representative as you might think, as it was a huge flamewar that didn't take any prisoners, where the most _vocal_ people took part in. But as said, topic closed, let's just not go there again unless there is a very productive and valid reason to do so. [...] cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@opensuse.org> /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::6+7 Feb 2010, Brussels, http://fosdem.org

On Thursday 17 June 2010 20:28:09 Marcus Moeller wrote:

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On Thursday 17 June 2010 17:47:32 Marcus Moeller wrote:

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openSUSE - #1 KDE distribution [...] So you are my 'Glaskugelleser' of the day. /me wonders why we do a survey if you already know the results.

Hm, no need to get rude and make excessive interpretations here.

Aeh, that's not meant rude, but anyway.

Ok, good, it did sound like that. At least to me ;D [...]

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Besides that the KDE default openFATE sais something else: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Uh, please, let's not go there. Not again. That thing is not as representative as you might think, as it was a huge flamewar that didn't take any prisoners, where the most _vocal_ people took part in. But as said, topic closed, let's just not go there again unless there is a very productive and valid reason to do so.

My proposal is meant as 'productive' strategy suggestion and I asked you if I should post it, before (on what you agreed). And I still believe it's a really good strategy and would help to make oS even more unique.

Yes, it is, that's not what I meant. What I wrote above was about the flame on that openFATE feature, not about your proposal per se ;) cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@opensuse.org> /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::6+7 Feb 2010, Brussels, http://fosdem.org

On Thursday 17 June 2010 18:02:05 Per Jessen wrote:

Marcus Moeller wrote:

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Hi all.

As I did not take part in the strategy meeting, I want to add my proposal, here.

Thanks - I may not agree with your proposal, but I think it's well written, and having more input is never bad. Oh, and I did also not take part in strategy meeting.

Just to clarify: - who participated in the strategy effort so far: * the members of the openSUSE Board * Andreas Jaeger, because we (board) value his opinions, ideas and experience * Jan Weber - Kurt Garloff helped us a _lot_ along the way by bringing us his extensive experience in that area (defining a strategy), and helped us by moderating, organising, keeping us focused, etc... -- all that in order to give us a framework in which we could define strategy proposals - again, those are *proposals* -- we believe that those are realistic, viable proposals for a strategy, because we've spent quite some time analysing various aspects in order to come up with them - we believed (and still do, until proven wrong ;D) that the best way to kickstart the strategy discussion (which we are doing right now) is to come up with realistic proposals, rather than going through the whole process with everyone -- we thought it would simply not be practical And now, please give us your constructive input, because the _contributors_ (at least those who are Members, but we believe that we have a pretty good coverage of active contributors there by now) will have the final say. cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@opensuse.org> /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::6+7 Feb 2010, Brussels, http://fosdem.org

Hi Carlos.

Do you know the project called better desktop www.betterdesktop.org that was sponsored by Novell and openSUSE project. I remember that project helped a lot with linux desktop (most part about gnome) when novell was moving from NLD to SLED. Maybe is time to do it again with KDE purpose.

I remember it. And the main output was the SLAB menu which afterwards has never been improved again and lacks of features and innovation now (but is still default on oS GNOME). We are in 2010 so it's time to step ahead an improve continuously. Best Regards Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd wrote:

Le 17/06/2010 16:46, Marcus Moeller a écrit :

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Hi all.

As I did not take part in the strategy meeting, I want to add my proposal, here.

openSUSE - #1 KDE distribution

Statement

Most Linux distributions rely on a (more or less customized) GNOME desktop as default environment.

most??? Ubuntu do, but Mandriva don't and I don't think Debian do

openSUSE is (and in my opinion have to stay) a general purpose distribution.

That would be my opinion too, but if we want maintain that, I still think we will need something to distinguish ourselves from the rest. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hi Andreas,

...

"Studio" is the most wonderfull thing a distro can have. Having gnome, kde, xfce, lxde makes openSUSE unique. Having full YaST  ncurse interface (including at install time!!) is invaluable. openSUSE the distribution for anybody!!

Please read all we've discussed about: http://en.opensuse.org/Documents/Strategy/Process

A strategy might  build on our strengths, like Studio, Build Service, and make new use of them for something far bigger than we have now.

Hey, KDE is one of openSUSE's biggest strength, at least if you ask the european userbase (which is the biggest one, I guess). Besides that, why not let a open survey decide which strategy should be choosen? I wouldn't limit this to members only, because there are a lot of contributors, supporters, moderators, translators and maybe even groupies (hey we need more of them) out there who are no official member. Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

* Pavol Rusnak <prusnak@opensuse.org> [2010-06-20 22:52]:

On 06/18/2010 10:04 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

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Besides that, why not let a open survey decide which strategy should be choosen? I wouldn't limit this to members only, because there are a lot of contributors, supporters, moderators, translators and maybe even groupies (hey we need more of them) out there who are no official member.

We discussed that during Strategy meetings and we agreed unanimously that this should be decided by openSUSE members.

Why? Will there be a choice to reject the given strategies? -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander wrote:

Mandag den 21. juni 2010 12:24:18 skrev Guido Berhoerster:

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* Pavol Rusnak <prusnak@opensuse.org> [2010-06-20 22:52]:

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On 06/18/2010 10:04 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

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Besides that, why not let a open survey decide which strategy should be choosen? I wouldn't limit this to members only, because there are a lot of contributors, supporters, moderators, translators and maybe even groupies (hey we need more of them) out there who are no official member.

We discussed that during Strategy meetings and we agreed unanimously that this should be decided by openSUSE members.

Why?

Will there be a choice to reject the given strategies?

Or make counter proposals?

Now is exactly the time for alternative proposals. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hi Denver.

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Mandag den 21. juni 2010 12:24:18 skrev Guido Berhoerster:

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* Pavol Rusnak <prusnak@opensuse.org> [2010-06-20 22:52]:

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On 06/18/2010 10:04 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

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Besides that, why not let a open survey decide which strategy should be choosen? I wouldn't limit this to members only, because there are a lot of contributors, supporters, moderators, translators and maybe even groupies (hey we need more of them) out there who are no official member. We discussed that during Strategy meetings and we agreed unanimously that this should be decided by openSUSE members. Why?

Will there be a choice to reject the given strategies? Or make counter proposals?

Now is exactly the time for alternative proposals.

if alternatives are submitted in the forum thread will they be considered here?

how can it be efficient to hold one discussion in two places with no connection to foster cross-talk..

there are several alternative/additive proposals and questions in the forum thread....are contributors there expected to post them here also?

Discussions will be merged by Andreas and Pavol (I guess :)) to the relevant wiki discussion page, e.g.: http://en.opensuse.org/Talk:Documents/Strategy/Community Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

DenverD wrote:

Per Jessen wrote:

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Martin Schlander wrote:

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Mandag den 21. juni 2010 12:24:18 skrev Guido Berhoerster:

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* Pavol Rusnak <prusnak@opensuse.org> [2010-06-20 22:52]:

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On 06/18/2010 10:04 PM, Marcus Moeller wrote:

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Besides that, why not let a open survey decide which strategy should be choosen? I wouldn't limit this to members only, because there are a lot of contributors, supporters, moderators, translators and maybe even groupies (hey we need more of them) out there who are no official member. We discussed that during Strategy meetings and we agreed unanimously that this should be decided by openSUSE members. Why?

Will there be a choice to reject the given strategies? Or make counter proposals?

Now is exactly the time for alternative proposals.

if alternatives are submitted in the forum thread will they be considered here?

Not unless people follow both. Personally, I don't. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 21 June 2010 17:54:42 DenverD wrote:

Per Jessen wrote:

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if alternatives are submitted in the forum thread will they be considered here?

Not unless people follow both. Personally, I don't.

i hereby submit the alternative proposals and (some) comments of the last days to the members of the mail list, in the form of links:

17-Jun-2010, 07:09 http://tinyurl.com/3a9y9qq 17-Jun-2010, 09:16 http://tinyurl.com/2ugcvz7 17-Jun-2010, 11:34 http://tinyurl.com/34e6g8y 19-Jun-2010, 09:50 http://tinyurl.com/3ybbhho 19-Jun-2010, 10:46 http://tinyurl.com/38qcbqu 20-Jun-2010, 12:14 http://tinyurl.com/38jutrw 21-Jun-2010, 01:28 http://tinyurl.com/35hfnd8

or, would the group here rather they be copy/pasted ?

Right after the first of those links, I see lots of topics being discussed, lots of accusations, lots of whining, lots of blaming, but not really much of a strategy discussion. You're confusing community with members, developers with contributors, board with novell, and everything else. It's almost like a conspiracy theory. Seriously, I don't even know where to start replying on the forum to correct those things, and false assumptions, and allegations of bad intentions. Ironically, someone stated that we (the "rest", .. the enemy ?) don't care about the opinion of the people who participate in the forums (right, which is why we're asking), it's developers vs users (right, which is why we're asking), and Novell is having a strong "grip" on the board (seems you haven't followed much of what has been going on lately.. say.. in the last 2 years ?). So, what should we do ? If every thread about the strategy discussion on the forums morphs into a hate-of-everyone-else-because-they're-not-on-the-forums on the 3rd post instead of trying to stay focused and on topic, what's the point ? Again, what should we do ? I'll read the other threads, hoping that they're a bit more on topic. And I'd even happily take position on each of those attacks, if someone manages to make a civil and focused discussion out of it. Mind you, I didn't even reply on the forum thread itself, because it's firing into every direction with more half-truths and complete-wrongs being spread with every single post. I believe it would be pointless as it would end up into an endless discussion about everything and the kitchen sink. Any idea on how to approach that serious issue ? -- -o) Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@opensuse.org> /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::6+7 Feb 2010, Brussels, http://fosdem.org

On Monday 21 June 2010 20:59:27 Jim Henderson wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 02:05:03 +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

So, what should we do ?

Open new discussion (thread) about fragmentation in the project, starting with communication infrastructure. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 04:45:57 +0200, Stephan Kleine wrote:

...

Help those of us who run those forums communicate more effectively with the membership there. *Please*.

I have no idea what you define as "membership" but the communication channels are well defined.

I'm talking about the members in the forum - not the openSUSE project members. This is why we need to have a common set of terms as a baseline for discussion.

...

The point isn't "hate everyone else because they're not on the forums" but what I have long sensed is a frustration on the part of some of the forum members that the forums are thought of as "second class".

The forum members are no "second class" but they simply fail to acknowledge that bitching on said forums doesn't help anyone. So they either will start to use communication channels that are used by the rest of the world to provide their input or their input will get lost within all that mess that currently makes up those "forums".

This is the core of the problem. You say the forum membership isn't second class, but then you describe the posts on the forums (collectively) as "bitching" and say that they need to "use communications that are used by the rest of the world". By definition, you've just relegated those users to "second class" status.

...

But some people need the catharsis of getting all their frustrations out on the table before they can move forward.

How about starting to "contribute" then in any way? Either test stuff _and_ file it via the proper channels (not those "forums" but bugzilla and so on). Also we are in need of documentation, packaging and so on. Point being bitching on said "forums" doesn't help anyone and most of them can't be arsed to contribute more than spamming there which doesn't qualify as useful contribution.

The openSUSE forums *are* an official channel. They're hosted by the openSUSE project, at forums.opensuse.org.

...

...

Again, what should we do ?

Help us clarify what needs clarified, understand where the community members in the forums are coming from, and make the forum members feel like a valued part of the community. Let's face it - many of the openSUSE user base use the forums to get help, and they get some good help in the forums - but the developer presence in the forums is practically nonexistent.

TBH, I don't give a rats ass about some mindless bubbling. If you want to contribute it is pretty obvious (e.g. report broken stuff in bugzilla and fix anything you encounter broken - which also includes missing docs on the wiki which shouldn't be that hard to do, or learn packaging or help people out or .... ).

I don't find this particularly helpful, Stephan. People need to be able to ask for help - and they do in the forums. it's not about "mindless bubbling" but about people who do not have the knowledge or skills to file a bug report with the information a developer needs. Sitting back and telling the users "you're doing it wrong" doesn't encourage users to learn how to contribute. If you want to build a stronger community of *contributors*, you have to start with a community of *users* (since by definition, the contributors come out of the pool of users). Alienating the user base is not a good way to grow a community of contributors. Telling them they're stupid (which you have in effect done) also doesn't. Think about it - how would YOU react to being told that you're stupid for using a resource that has been provided by the project? I imagine you'd be pretty angry.

...

I've suggested in the thread in the forums (and I'll suggest here as well) that what might help with this is for the openSUSE developer community to leverage the forums as a first point of contact for users and work out (with those of us who are the admins in the forums) a means for issues to be escalated from the forum membership to the developers. Right now there's no real good guideline that I've seen other than "file a bug in bugzilla" - which makes the forum users feel disconnected from the project.

As long as those "forums" are handled (via admins) and structurwise as they are now I wont touch them with a rotten stick. I argued with your "admins" quite some times to make it more usable structure wise so one could easily find the interesting parts but no way. Now finally take - e.g. linux-club.de which has quite some better ordering so one could answer the interesting subjects besides having to dig through some "ITZ NO WORKZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" crap that is unrelated to the subject. It was always declined with some "That's included in applications" and so on - e.g. I couldn't give a fuck about random applications but were interested in the security and server part - but no, "you" (as in the "forum" admins) refused to create some specific topics for those ....

Do you have some past here that is not apparent to me? I *am* one of the admins over there, but I'm relatively new as well. When's the last time you looked at the structure?

...

...

I'll read the other threads, hoping that they're a bit more on topic. And I'd even happily take position on each of those attacks, if someone manages to make a civil and focused discussion out of it.

Let's work together on this - as I said above, it's important to understand where this audience is coming from; it's a mix of technical and non-technical users, which in and of itself can be a volatile mix because of differences in how those two groups communicate.

Well, said audience has to accept that not everyones worlds spins around those "forums". So how about they simply accept this and adapt?

Turn that statement on its head; the audience you are a part of also has to accept that not everyone's world spins around the mailing lists. 40,000+ users in the forum. How many on the MLs? I'm not saying this is a question of "MLs vs. forums" - we should all be able to work together.

...

forum), the forums feel very disconnected from the rest of the project.

Then how about stop bitching "OMG they don't use the forums but some years older mailing list, it has to be some conspiracy. Finally get over it and accept that most devs do NOT use that forum since it is quite some waste of time (accessibility and structure wise)

I'm not going to be able to bend the entire user base in the forums to not "bitch". That comes out of developing that sense of acceptance that *some* people will want to use the forums. Some will use them from the web interface, some will use them from the NNTP interface, some will prefer IRC, some will prefer the MLs - there's a good mix of available options, and no *one* method is the end-all, be-all of community interaction. Swearing at the users who choose one you don't happen to like is counterproductive. Is the forum structure perfect? No, it isn't - but it's what we've got so far, and for many of the users, it's working pretty well. The vast majority of the posts are on-topic and don't involve a lot of what you call 'bitching' - read the "Help" sections rather than the "soapbox" section, and you'll see a fair amount of honest help being sought and provided. Many of the posts don't result in any sort of need to escalate a bug, because it's users learning how to use openSUSE. But sometimes there are bugs that come up, and to ignore those reports because they didn't come through the ML seems a little counterproductive to me. They *should* be in bugzilla, if they're bugs, but providing a clear escalation path from the forums (or the MLs or wherever) would be a good thing.

...

I think it also starts by acknowledging that things haven't worked as smoothly as they could have, and that the forums by and large have been the "red-headed stepchild" of the project (especially as far as developer involvement is concerned - James Tan is a notable exception in providing assistance in the Studio forum; there may be others I'm not aware of, though).

Now take e.g. that http://forums.opensuse.org/community/soapbox/440294-kde-3- a.html thread and wonder yourself why anyone with a sane mind wont touch those "forums" with a rotten stick.

You'll note that that's in the *soapbox* forum, which is generally not a place to post if you want to be taken seriously in the forums. The soapbox is self-described as "Strong opinions about mostly anything". It's not a support forum, nor is it intended to be taken seriously. Have a look in the forums where people are actually being helped, and you'll see a very different dynamic at work.

...

I haven't talked this over at any length with the other forum administrators (I'm one of the 3 admins), but would be willing to do whatever I can to help facilitate such a discussion with the rest of the admins and other staff.

Well, considering that your current structure plain sucks and you have been resistent to any arguments since more than a year I dare to say it is time you think it over.

I personally haven't been resistant to any *constructive* criticisms. Saying "D00D, IT SUXORSS!!!@!@!" isn't particularly constructive or helpful. Swearing at the admins and membership also isn't particularly helpful. So let's reset and try to start off on the right foot here, you and me (at least) and *help* each other rather than attack each other. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 11:51:08 +0200, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

2010/6/22 Jim Henderson <hendersj@gmail.com>:

...

They *should* be in bugzilla, if they're bugs, but providing a clear escalation path from the forums (or the MLs or wherever) would be a good thing.

I have, more than once, tried to make an user report a problem in bugzilla once we found the problem and the solution. I give to him, directly, a link to bugzilla and an explanation of what he needs to do and even say... the bug is never reported in bugzilla, they don't even try. If targeting individual forum users is not enough to make them use bugzilla I don't see how we can "provide a clear escalation path" in general. I have more than 400 posts in the forums and I lost my faith long ago.

So lets accept that the forum is just a place where people gets solutions for its problems. Good or bad solutions? Doesn't matters. Just solutions good enough for the forum users. It's a shame that those users don't help openSUSE to improve with bug reports, but since I don't see a way to change that it makes no sense to worry about that problem. The forums have a function and the ML another one, that's fine with me.

I don't see that it's necessarily a bad thing, though, to try to educate forum users (or users who come in through any venue) in how to report bugs. DenverD directs a fair number of people to bugzilla to file bugs, and has some success in getting responses back from people saying that they have filed a bug. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 18:44:03 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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I don't see that it's necessarily a bad thing, though, to try to educate forum users (or users who come in through any venue) in how to report bugs. DenverD directs a fair number of people to bugzilla to file bugs, and has some success in getting responses back from people saying that they have filed a bug.

As a passer-by, the biggest problem with bugzilla is that it requires creation of an account. Debian BTS is a lot more non-subscriber friendly and allows to converse via mail, not needing to specially open a browser.

And actually, forum users also have to create an account - that same account is used for access to bugzilla - so in some ways, the forum users are one step further along in that process because they already have the account to create bugs. :-) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 19:50:06 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

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And actually, forum users also have to create an account - that same account is used for access to bugzilla - so in some ways, the forum users are one step further along in that process because they already have the account to create bugs.

That's perfect - there really should not be anything preventing an ml-fora bi-gating then.

You lost me here - I'm not sure how the login requirement for the forums relates to this. Can you clarify what you mean? Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 2:11 PM, Per Jessen <per@opensuse.org> wrote:

Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 19:50:06 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

And actually, forum users also have to create an account - that same account is used for access to bugzilla - so in some ways, the forum users are one step further along in that process because they already have the account to create bugs.

That's perfect - there really should not be anything preventing an ml-fora bi-gating then.

You lost me here - I'm not sure how the login requirement for the forums relates to this.  Can you clarify what you mean?

In my experience, the one thing that (sometimes/often) prevents such a bi-gating of fora<>ml is the requirement that a forum poster be subscribed to the mailing list.  However, when opensuse forum members are required to be registered for access to bugzilla, those registered could simply be allowed access by default, i.e. without having to actively subscribe. It would take a little fiddling, but nothing major.

Per, Not sure what your saying still. If it is that all users with a novell account can access the forums and post, I think that is already the case. I know I have on very rare occasion stumbled across a thread and participated. I don't think I had to do anything special to make that happen. (But I did have to monitor that thread for a while. Or maybe I subscribed to the thread. I don't recall and its been too long.) Greg -- Greg Freemyer Head of EDD Tape Extraction and Processing team Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer CNN/TruTV Aired Forensic Imaging Demo - http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/23/how-computer-evidence-gets-retriev... The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:11:01 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

You lost me here - I'm not sure how the login requirement for the forums relates to this. Can you clarify what you mean?

In my experience, the one thing that (sometimes/often) prevents such a bi-gating of fora<>ml is the requirement that a forum poster be subscribed to the mailing list. However, when opensuse forum members are required to be registered for access to bugzilla, those registered could simply be allowed access by default, i.e. without having to actively subscribe. It would take a little fiddling, but nothing major.

Oh, I see - much as I had to subscribe to the lists as "nomail" when I signed up through gmane (which is how I access the MLs, I probably mentioned that before). The challenge is that registering to post doesn't mean a spammer won't get through; in fact, a fair amount of the spam junk that hits the forums comes from people who have registered first and then post a handful of messages (there are a few different strategies those spammers use; we do ban them fairly quickly when they are reported, but we can't "un-send" the messages that would be forwarded to the ML in such a configuration). Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Per Jessen <per@opensuse.org> wrote:

Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:11:01 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

You lost me here - I'm not sure how the login requirement for the forums relates to this.  Can you clarify what you mean?

In my experience, the one thing that (sometimes/often) prevents such a bi-gating of fora<>ml is the requirement that a forum poster be subscribed to the mailing list.  However, when opensuse forum members are required to be registered for access to bugzilla, those registered could simply be allowed access by default, i.e. without having to actively subscribe. It would take a little fiddling, but nothing major.

Oh, I see - much as I had to subscribe to the lists as "nomail" when I signed up through gmane (which is how I access the MLs, I probably mentioned that before).

Yep. I run my own news-server, but otherwise exactly the same.

...

The challenge is that registering to post doesn't mean a spammer won't get through; in fact, a fair amount of the spam junk that hits the forums comes from people who have registered first and then post a handful of messages (there are a few different strategies those spammers use; we do ban them fairly quickly when they are reported, but we can't "un-send" the messages that would be forwarded to the ML in such a configuration).

I'm not too worried about spam - spam is a fact of life, but if the novell/bugzilla registration process uses a decent CAPTCHA, much can be eliminated right then and there.

I repeat that the lkml spam filter is extremely good. I got the _impression_ from Henne that it would not be hard to incorporate that into the opensuse mailing lists. So even if my idea of opening up the lists to non-subscribers is a none-starter, it may still be helpful to leverage the lkml spam filtering solution if spam becomes a problem for some other reason. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:52:45 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

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The challenge is that registering to post doesn't mean a spammer won't get through; in fact, a fair amount of the spam junk that hits the forums comes from people who have registered first and then post a handful of messages (there are a few different strategies those spammers use; we do ban them fairly quickly when they are reported, but we can't "un-send" the messages that would be forwarded to the ML in such a configuration).

I'm not too worried about spam - spam is a fact of life, but if the novell/bugzilla registration process uses a decent CAPTCHA, much can be eliminated right then and there.

What I've found is that the spammers tend to be individuals rather than automated bots - the CAPTCHA does good at filtering the bots out, but I've been honestly surprised at the number of "iPod video conversion", "BlueRay Ripper" spam posts we get in the forums that originate from the web interface. That would be something to discuss further in Andreas' suggested thread (I'm thinking over how to present the idea to start that thread). Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

...

And actually, forum users also have to create an account - that same account is used for access to bugzilla - so in some ways, the forum users are one step further along in that process because they already have the account to create bugs. :-)

That's perfect - there really should not be anything preventing an ml-fora bi-gating then.

Except the HUGE cultural difference in how people use the medium. A mailing list is a culture of correctness, RFCs and a certain communication style. And the people that keep this communication medium going (the people most important to our project!) are very picky about it. If you mix this with the more relaxed style of fora you will drive exactly these people away.

Alternatively, we could hope that the forum users would adapt the style of the mailing list. After all, if you want an answer, ask nicely and ask smart questions. I completely agree that there are huge cultural differences in the use of fora vs. mailing lists, but in essence all of the users are all openSUSE users. They can't be _that_ different. If they get to interact without having to jump through hoops, perhaps the "cultures" will merge.

I get that you want to connect the forum community closer to the other parts but that does not necessarily mean to integrate the communication medium. I must say I'm always a bit perplexed by this method. We don't integrate IRC, twitter, facebook or all the other communication media with each other, but nevertheless they work together.

To me it is the obvious thing do to - fora, mailing lists and newsgroup are all about the same thing - messages from one person to a group of people. The medium is just an interface, nothing else. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (16.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kleine wrote:

So they either will start to use communication channels that are used by the rest of the world to provide their input or their input will get lost within all that mess that currently makes up those "forums".

well, i have to admit i HATE the whines and bitchings on "the forum" also....and, Jim (a moderator) can tell you that i've been rapped across the knuckles more than once for not sugar coating (to a whiner/bitcher/troll/@ssh0le) "get off your lazy ass, stop the whine and just read a little, do a google, look around, stop double clicking everything you see..." so, i agree with you Stephan! and i hereby propose that the absolutely WORTHLESS forums be closed! and instead point all the new folks with black screens to join the communications channels that are used by the rest of the world for all the help they need, here: http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate#Mailing_Lists http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate#Instant_Chat_.28IRC.29 and ask any of the membership approval committee reading here to please withdraw my request as i no longer wish to be associated with this group.. best always, DenverD -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 10:40:48 +0200, Karsten König wrote:

Btw quickly skimming over a few threads I wonder what makes people start to help out there, what got you started to helping people that lack proper manners and to the abbility find basic information?

For me, I started because I recognised that the way for people to learn enough to contribute in more concrete ways (such as documenting things, filing bug reports, and up to code contributions) is that they need to start somewhere. The forums existed and I had previous experience in the Novell forums (going back to the early 90's), so I knew what to expect. I think something that Stephan (and perhaps others) is missing is that if you want to add contributors, many people aren't prepared to just jump into the deep end, you have to cultivate from the user base. And a large portion of that user base comes from the forums. It's not the only place people come to the project from, of course, but I do hate to think what the MLs would look like if 40,000+ people started posting to them - the S/N ratio would be unbearable. But in running the forums, those of us who do so also recognise that the structure isn't going to be 100% perfect for everyone. If we were to structure exactly like Stephan suggested (following linux-club.de), someone else would be unhappy and say that it's not optimal. I would simply refer those people back to the guiding principle that says that we respect that people work in different ways and have their own preferred tools. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 18:40:32 +0200, jdd wrote:

Le 22/06/2010 18:32, Jim Henderson a écrit :

...

to think what the MLs would look like if 40,000+ people started posting to them - the S/N ratio would be unbearable.

are you kidding? I have at hand at least 20,000 newsgroups (groups, not users)!! some with more than 5000 posts *a day* (not to say it's comfortable)

looks you don't know the opensuse users list :-))

Oh, I read the users list, I just don't reply very frequently. :-) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hi, On 22.06.2010 08:52, Per Jessen wrote:

It was an unavoidable consequence of splitting the fora. If only the mailing list and the fora had been bi-gated (like some us did propose).

Then we would have this everyday. Something i would rather avoid :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 08:52:56 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

It was an unavoidable consequence of splitting the fora. If only the mailing list and the fora had been bi-gated (like some us did propose).

There's at least three approaches to deal with that;

one, for some devs to participate in the forums as well. Two, for the forums to act as a filter to ensure the important stuff gets passed along to the devs on the ML. Three, to gate the MLs to the forums.

Despite the apparent cultural differences between the two groups, I think it would be advantageous for the project/community to combine them. (that has always been my position). Of course, it would require some changes, technically and otherwise - the mailing list would be the master, the forum just another interface.  It would mean requiring subscription for the fora users. It would also mean aligning lists and fora wrt topics, which might take some work (I guess). Just my take on the matter of course. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (17.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 12:59:17 +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

On Tuesday 22 June 2010 03:59:27 Jim Henderson wrote:

...

[...] I think it starts by building trust between the forum users and the leadership in the openSUSE project. That started, I think, when Rupert was elected to the board (as he was involved in the original forum migration project IIRC). Right now, from the forum side of the fence (and speaking for myself and for what I perceive in the users in the forum), the forums feel very disconnected from the rest of the project.

I think it also starts by acknowledging that things haven't worked as smoothly as they could have, and that the forums by and large have been the "red-headed stepchild" of the project (especially as far as developer involvement is concerned - James Tan is a notable exception in providing assistance in the Studio forum; there may be others I'm not aware of, though).

Jim, I think this is an important insight and we should discuss it separately.

Let's enhance the community statement with a goal of uniting the different means of communication - and then figure out what exactly does it mean in a separate conversation,

Andreas

Thanks, Andreas - that sounds good to me. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Community, without much enthusiam I read this thread which is packed with inappropriate attacks and dis-respect. I wonder what we're trying to achieve as a community here. May someone tell me? From my perspective, and I have a pretty good insight into the forums as you may assume, the forums administration shouldn't be a target of frustration and un-deliberated comments about their contribution to the openSUSE Project. Having a bit more of a REAL insight into the forums, I have to outline that bashing the forums for being a incompetent accumulation of in-efficiency and deny them of being interested in collaboartion simply doesn't hold true. First of all, it's inappropriate to cite soapbox forums discussion, because they have nothing to do with competency but cover everything from current events to bananas. Second of all, while reading this particular thread, Jim Henderson, our well-respected forums admin, is that particular discussion participant that actually is accessible and tries to collaborate. I can't see this from the other side of the fence, sorry. It's anyway unfortunate that we need to talk about fences here. We're community and we have the very same goal in mind. We're not in war with each other. I hope so at least. To remain on topic, I take the time to explain something pretty straightforward to the audience: The forums are a VERY important part of the community as it's the communication medium that is to be seen as the "low hanging fruit". Unbelievable for nerds maybe, but most of the population doesn't even know what a mailing list actually is. That said, Jim Henderson correctly outlined that a pool of contributors is recruited out of a pool of users and thus it's imho ridiculous and btw harmful to the Project's Goals to bash the forums in that regard just for the reason to obscure the REAL reason we fail in growing our community (yes Gentlemen, that's our problem): The real reason from my perspective is the climate and thinking behind statements like: "So they either will start touse communication channels that are used by the rest of the world to provide their input or their input will get lost within all that mess that currently makes up those "forums"." Putting forums in double quotes? Do I need to tell you more about reasons of separation within the community? I know that I won't make friends by sending this but IMO we should think about solving the issues we have and the solution is simple. You, developers/experienced users, need to participate in the forums if you're serious with growing Community. You need to be accessible to proposals out of the "enemies'" headquarters. The forums administartion often asked for mailing list/forums integration without any responses, we set up NNTP for people not aligned to a web interface etc etc. What have you done? This isn't a forums issue and the reason that the forums are divided from the rest is to search for outside the forums not inside. There are communities able to solve these issues as they focus on the lowest entry border - look at Ubuntu. Why do you think their community is growing? As they are bashing their lowest hanging fruit medium? Obviously not! They are friendly (internally and especially to the outside) and that's the area we fail. We have brilliant developers and tools in place to rock the world but we're too silly to utilize those and this honestly is discouraging. Why don't you get started really reflecting where our issues are and start solving it by changing your minds. That way we may achieve what we all want to achieve, as a team, across communication media! My proposal would be to sit together and bring issues to the table and think about resolving those, e.g. with a mailing list/forums integration. Even more important is to understand that forums are needed and it's impossible to align forum users to mailing lists. Get your ass to the forums (sorry!) and interact with the community of 45.000+ users out there. Teach them and lower the border into our community. Is that that difficult. Sorry but if you tell me it actually is, I'm not that sure if you're really serious with the goal in recruitinmg contributors and if I'm not completely out of discussion that's our common goal, isn't it? Respectfully, R -- Rupert Horstkötter open-slx Community Manager openSUSE Board Member http://open-slx.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 24 Jun 2010 10:19:33 -0500, Malcolm wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jun 2010 17:07:24 +0200 Rupert Horstkötter <rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org> wrote:

...

My proposal would be to sit together and bring issues to the table and think about resolving those, e.g. with a mailing list/forums integration. Even more important is to understand that forums are needed and it's impossible to align forum users to mailing lists. Get your ass to the forums (sorry!) and interact with the community of 45.000+ users out there. Teach them and lower the border into our community. Is that that difficult. Sorry but if you tell me it actually is, I'm not that sure if you're really serious with the goal in recruitinmg contributors and if I'm not completely out of discussion that's our common goal, isn't it?

Respectfully, R

Thank your for this response Rupert, your post is much appreciated :)

Yes, thank you, Rupert - you said a lot of what I've been thinking and trying to figure out a good way to say. We *are* all on the same "team" here and there's no need for the discussion to be adversarial - we have the same ultimate goal, which is to grow the community to increase the pool of active contributors. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/24 Rupert Horstkötter <rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org>:

My proposal would be to sit together and bring issues to the table and think about resolving those, e.g. with a mailing list/forums integration. Even more important is to understand that forums are needed and it's impossible to align forum users to mailing lists. Get your ass to the forums (sorry!) and interact with the community of 45.000+ users out there. Teach them and lower the border into our community. Is that that difficult. Sorry but if you tell me it actually is, I'm not that sure if you're really serious with the goal in recruitinmg contributors and if I'm not completely out of discussion that's our common goal, isn't it?

Could you (or someone else) link to 10 forum threads from June worth reading? I must admit I never followed all the subforums, so perhaps I missed some interesting ones. This doesn't pretends to be an attack in any way. Sincerely, if I read them correctly (not sure about that) the May stats say there were 1217 threads started, so 10 doesn't seems a big number. Since you are asking to assign resources to the forum, could you give ten examples of what would we achieve with that? This way everybody can judge by itself if it's worth the effort. Let's ignore for the moment all the filtering required to find those 10 threads, I just would like to see the top ten. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/24 DenverD <DenverD@texan.dk>:

WAIT--most of those are NOT worth reading!! but if we want to grow the community and increase the size of the group of potential contributors then while not worth _reading_ they ARE worth answering.

And aren't they being answered? How many of them get unanswered? Anyway, that's your point? We will not find real problems to fix? We can just help people that with some luck, we hope, someday will contribute in some way? I was asking this so "everybody can judge by itself if it's worth the effort". To me is not. Sure, if I have to just select between give an answer to that user or not... lets give him an answer!! But this is a resource management problem. I can answer to ten users asking "I installed mkvtoolnix but I don't know how to start it, it doesn't appears in the menu" or I can patch the mkvtoolnix package to add a menu entry and talk with upstream so they apply the patch, helping a hundred users. Time is limited. Fixing problems we help lots of users. Answering a question not worth reading in the forum we help a single user. Forum users, those that someday perhaps will start contributing, will also go if the distro is full of bugs. We need a balance, and I don't see anything indicating the current one is wrong. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hey On 25.06.2010 10:56, Rupert Horstkötter wrote:

The goal should be, as DenverD rightly oulined, to actually get a better understanding of the actual demand/problems/need of the user community = our customer!

You have a very romantic view on development :) If developers listen a lot to what users want then the software will be better. The reality is slightly different. A free software developer needs to carefully route and filter all the input he gets to be able to do what he's supposed to do: hack. That's why this area is so heavily seeded with tools that standardize communication and help the developer to process it. As long as a medium (like the fora) doesn't provide the developer with a reasonable amount of input and the means to quickly process it they will never be attractive for them. You can kick and scream all day that developers HAVE TO to read the forums. It's simply not attractive for them so they won't. BTW they don't read our user lists (like opensuse@o.o) either. They never have and they never will. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/25 Jim Henderson <hendersj@gmail.com>:

Sure, and that's why the discussion of how to interrelate between these two groups is so important.  Some say "use bugzilla", and sure, that's one option.  But for the users, bugzilla isn't always the most convenient way to report problems.  Many users don't know what details to provide in order to get the bug addressed.  I have a very strong technical background and I often will not open a bug until I am able to identify with specificity what *exactly* the problem is - and if I don't know what exactly is broken, I want to find out before opening an issue.  Which means having an informal chat with someone who *does* know what I should be looking for to make the bug report *useful*.

Users will ***NEED*** to provide the details to get the bug addressed. Whatever it is in bugzilla, in the forums or in twitter. Without the details the bug can't be identified and so fixed. It's a kind of law of nature, nothing specific to bugzilla. But... https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=527657 The user starts with a description far enough of the real problem that doesn't helps at all. I ask for the console output (the only thing really needed a lot of times) and then the problem is shown and fixed. User don't have to know about the console output, but it's something easy to learn... the next bug report will be better. If you give a description that shows the exact problem great. If you give a patch to fix the problem even better. If everything you know is that app X crashes when opening a kind of file... well, it's a start, open the bug report and we will say you how to obtain the missing info. Nobody is biting people that gives suboptimal bug reports.

I work in my day job alongside a large number of non-technical people who are expected to raise issues in bugzilla; they find it cumbersome and confusing, because bugzilla is a tool developed by developers *for* developers, not for the average end user.

You (and I for that matter) may look at it and say "what's so confusing about it?", but our perspective on what's easy and what isn't is different than someone with no technical background.  It's very difficult to put oneself in another's shoes and have that "aha, now I see what's confusing about it" moment.

OK, the bugzilla interface. As you explained we don't see the problem, so we can't fix it. Since "our perspective on what's easy and what isn't is different than someone with no technical background" we can't help here... if these users "find it cumbersome and confusing" they just need to say what the problems are and how could them be improved. Since they can't use bugzilla to report the problems with bugzilla itself lets see the forum this time: - All the forums have just 17 threads with "bugzilla" in its title in all its history, 5 from archives. - Some are people trying to INSTALL bugzilla - One is a success history - Some are related to temporal problems with bugzilla - The russian subforum has a sticky explaining how to report bugs. Now I like Russian forum users! ...there are not a lot of people asking for help about how to report a bug. From here it seems they don't even TRY or that when they try they have no problems at all. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/25 Jim Henderson <hendersj@gmail.com>:

But having an intermediary provide the information - bug duplication, validation, perhaps discussion with the devs before it even goes into bugzilla could raise the quality of the bugs entered and make the devs job easier.

One might think "well, OK, but that's a forums thing and not something I need to be involved in" - but that kind of coordination does need buy-in from the devs, because they'll need to recognise that the reporter is reporting as a proxy.  There also needs to be that sense of the reports being respected.  We've had several examples in these strategy threads of just how negatively some of the participants feel about the forums.

So you are proposing that some experienced forum users do a filter/proxy and start sending bug reports from other forum users? And everything you need is that we treat those bugs as we treat any other bug? OK, you have it. Please, if somebody doesn't wants to receive bug reports this way say so now... ... ... Now we can wait a week and nobody is going to answer. But sure, I'm cheating. Lets make that more difficult. Start a thread in the forum where everybody from this list will be able to post a "I will take seriously the bugs that are sent through this system" message. Now ask... here, in -factory and -packaging for people to go to the forum and spend a minute to write the post. How many answer will you need to start the work? Bug reports are bug reports. Obviously everybody will accept them as any other bug (also meaning that if there is no enough info to reproduce the problem the bug will be closed as "WORKSFORME"). All you need to change the negative feeling about the forums of some of the participants in these strategy threads... is start getting bug reports from the forums. Good enough to be able to obtain a fix, nothing more. But if you really need it, please, start that forum thread. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Friday June 25 2010 23:56:14 Jim Henderson wrote:

On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 23:46:17 +0200, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

2010/6/25 Jim Henderson

<hendersj@gmail.com>:

...

But having an intermediary provide the information - bug duplication, validation, perhaps discussion with the devs before it even goes into bugzilla could raise the quality of the bugs entered and make the devs job easier.

One might think "well, OK, but that's a forums thing and not something I need to be involved in" - but that kind of coordination does need buy-in from the devs, because they'll need to recognise that the reporter is reporting as a proxy. There also needs to be that sense of the reports being respected. We've had several examples in these strategy threads of just how negatively some of the participants feel about the forums.

So you are proposing that some experienced forum users do a filter/proxy and start sending bug reports from other forum users? And everything you need is that we treat those bugs as we treat any other bug? OK, you have it.

My read of your reply here is that you're frustrated. Is that a fair reading of what you wrote?

Probably, IMHO reporting bugs "as a proxy" simply makes no sense because "you" (the proxy) will never be able to answer any follow up questions.

What I've proposed is just that - a proposal.

I personally don't need everyone who answers bugs to say "yes, we'll accept bugs from forum users", but a general feeling that such bugs will be accepted and worked on - and that the devs will work *with* the users/ reporters to identify and resolve bugs.

IMHO it is plain ridiculous that you suggest that bugs from "forum users" are treated differently from bugs reported by $otherPeople. The point simply being is that one has to be able to get answers to following questions, which wont happen it they get reported by proxies.

Which means providing some feedback rather than just saying "WORKSFORME" and immediately closing the bug when there isn't enough information presented.

It will first get set on NEEDINFO and if the reporter can't be arsed to provide any information (answering some "How am I supposed to provide the answers you need?" will always get some "how to do it" as an answer which is sounds fair to me IMHO) but you can't really blame ppl for closing bugs if the reporter can't be arsed to provide any information.

If a user takes the time to say "hey, something's broken here and not working properly for me" but an insufficient amount of information is presented, even if the bug is posted by an intermediary (because not everyone can know what a developer is going to need to fix a bug), the flow needs to be smooth enough that people feel it's worth their time to even report the bug.

1. It totally makes NO sense to me to report bugs as a proxy since you wont be able to answer any follow up questions. 2. If someone encounters anything "broken" and then files a bug he / she should also be willing to answer any following up questions. There is NO knowledge needed since ppl will ask for the information and normally will happily tell how to get the needed output so there is nothing required but being able to answer questions and providing the requested output. OTOH if people aren't willing to do that it makes no sense reporting a bug in the first place. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 00:38:58 +0200, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

...

My read of your reply here is that you're frustrated.  Is that a fair reading of what you wrote?

Probably, IMHO reporting bugs "as a proxy" simply makes no sense because "you" (the proxy) will never be able to answer any follow up questions.

In fact the thing is that I think the same: "it is plain ridiculous that you suggest that bugs from "forum users" are treated differently from bugs reported by $otherPeople". But since Jim seems to really think that could happen I was trying to take the issue seriously. But sure. For such a thing to be useful I expect those "proxies" to be able to ask users for additional feedback when requested.

I appreciate you trying to take the issue seriously. As I said, it's a cultural difference (not as in "US vs. Germany" culture, but "technical vs. non-technical" cultural difference.

To be 100% sincere. What I expect is that if forum admins really try such a thing they will find that no user uses that "proxy service" (some will say something, but the proxies will not be able to get enough info to open a bug report most of the time). And after two months the people that volunteer to be the proxies will get tired and the service canceled. That at least would end future discussions about devs using the forums.

Please tell me that reading that as "then we can stop worrying about the users" is not how you intended to come across. We shouldn't be looking for a way to limit discussion about interaction between users and developers; we should be looking for a solution that makes that interaction as smooth, painless, and the best use of everyone's time for *everyone* as possible. The idea of using proxies to report bugs isn't unprecedented. For many years (well over a decade in total), I volunteered to do just that thing in the various incarnations of the Novell forums. The structure worked a little differently, especially in the early days, because there wasn't a public bug reporting tool, but the forum staff escalated issues to designated backline engineers, who then could take the information to development. Some developers resisted (and do resist to this day) dealing with issues that come in that way. Others recognise the value of using that kind of aggregation, especially since many critical issues first get reported in the Novell forums before the calls start coming in. Users don't want to call in and raise an incident on known issues, so they start by asking in a forum if anyone else has seen the issue. I've seen it play out time and time again very successfully; I think this model (or an adaptation of it) could be successful here and let those who do development concentrate more on development. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 01:24:15 +0200, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

2010/6/26 Jim Henderson <hendersj@gmail.com>:

...

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 00:38:58 +0200, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

To be 100% sincere. What I expect is that if forum admins really try such a thing they will find that no user uses that "proxy service" (some will say something, but the proxies will not be able to get enough info to open a bug report most of the time). And after two months the people that volunteer to be the proxies will get tired and the service canceled. That at least would end future discussions about devs using the forums.

Please tell me that reading that as "then we can stop worrying about the users" is not how you intended to come across.  We shouldn't be looking for a way to limit discussion about interaction between users and developers; we should be looking for a solution that makes that interaction as smooth, painless, and the best use of everyone's time for *everyone* as possible.

IMHO the current system doesn't imposes any problem for forums users to report bugs. So since they don't do now, I expect they neither to do that with proxies. If I'm wrong that system will work. Users will get its bugs fixed and devs will get the wanted bug reports. Everybody happy. I would like that to happen, I just don't believe it will happen. If doesn't works I expect everybody to understand that the problem is 100% in the forum users side. And sure, continue searching for ways to fix the problem... but don't search them in devs because devs are unrelated to the problem.

Ultimately I see it as a communication and/or cultural issue, but I think we can resolve those issues. The idea for proxy bug reports was an idea I had based on past experience that I thought might work out - or might at least lead to some discussion about other things that might work. Either way, I'm glad that we're having the discussion, and thank you for taking part in it. As Stephan said, we're all "supposed to pull on the same string" here. :-)

We can discuss for weeks who is right... or you can just test it.

That's fair. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 27 June 2010 07:20:30 Per Jessen wrote:

The model works fine, no doubt about it - but would it also work in a project based on volunteer efforts?

There is enough people in forums and mail lists related to first line help, willing to do that, but second level, that will actually fix bugs, and their bosses should know about that. There is nothing worse then to put effort in fixing some issue as intermediate party to be brushed by someone that does not understand that is the only way to get that report and the best chance to solve the issue. Jim already started thread about Education and Training topic. I will create one about communications, from plain understanding between people, to some technical issues of our infrastructure. Bug reporting process has few issues in both domains, education and communication. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 [sent later] On 2010-06-28 18:55, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 14:20:30 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Jim Henderson wrote:

...

The idea of using proxies to report bugs isn't unprecedented. For many years (well over a decade in total), I volunteered to do just that thing in the various incarnations of the Novell forums. The structure worked a little differently, especially in the early days, because there wasn't a public bug reporting tool, but the forum staff escalated issues to designated backline engineers, who then could take the information to development.

In my world, this is simply called "lst line support". It is staffed by people with a certain minimum of technical skill, capable of identifying the most common problems and pointing the user to a PTF or otherwise help him.

Makes sense to me - though in the online world, I find that as front line support goes, there tends to be very strong technical expertise when you operate as a meritocracy. Those who give good help continue to do so, and tend to acquire a lot of knowledge and be able to solve a lot of problems.

In the "real world" this does not often happen, because those in that 1st line are under-payed and unmotivated, in my experience, so that they seek a different post, or even better, a different company, going away as soon as they can with their experience - lost. In my circle of friends we call them "flower pots", because attempting to solve a problem talking to them is like talking to pottery. Very nice pottery when it is not phone, but human. Usually young girls hired for events. Thus the term: flower pots. Not trying to demean them, I have been a flower pot myself, of the rough kind ;-)

...

...

I've seen it play out time and time again very successfully; I think this model (or an adaptation of it) could be successful here and let those who do development concentrate more on development.

The model works fine, no doubt about it - but would it also work in a project based on volunteer efforts?

I think it could; the developers have the same constraints whether they're paid to develop or not, and the technical people answering the questions (in my experience) have been volunteers. I used to be one myself in the Novell forums years ago.

The primary difference with an open project is that of accessibility to the "back line" and to the developers. But the mechanism of filtering those escalations is something that I see as equally valid regardless (not talking about 'proxy bug reports' here, just the filtering of the "I can't print" type posts from backline/development level assistance unless there's an actual problem that needs to be fixed).

And it would make for faster solving. It is discouraging to find that the first answer on a bugzilla that took many hours to investigate and report is not written till several months later. Perhaps better "triaging" (is that the word?) would help. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAkwpr9QACgkQja8UbcUWM1y5MgD+If3TbYKd/tDHOTGwkKC8TQhF 9aSLV9eBjG5ucS5SxrYBAJlSSGmeBfS9wUxwEBCTFXIHCPZSyxFUMyC3Oo8jXTbm =tIn4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2010-06-29 22:34, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 10:33:25 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

Makes sense to me - though in the online world, I find that as front line support goes, there tends to be very strong technical expertise when you operate as a meritocracy. Those who give good help continue to do so, and tend to acquire a lot of knowledge and be able to solve a lot of problems.

In the "real world" this does not often happen, because those in that 1st line are under-payed and unmotivated, in my experience, so that they seek a different post, or even better, a different company, going away as soon as they can with their experience - lost. In my circle of friends we call them "flower pots", because attempting to solve a problem talking to them is like talking to pottery. Very nice pottery when it is not phone, but human. Usually young girls hired for events. Thus the term: flower pots. Not trying to demean them, I have been a flower pot myself, of the rough kind ;-)

Oh, sure, in the real world, front-line support is typically (but not always) low-paid, entry-level positions. But we're talking about the online world here; that kind of escalation is quite popular, not just in the Novell forums, but also the Microsoft forums and other online communities. The "front line" there are the NKPs (for Novell) or the MVPs (for Microsoft) - and many stay there for years, completely unpaid (there are usually other perks, conferences and the like). As I mentioned earlier, I was one of those volunteers for more than a decade for Novell. :)

Ah, I have never seen that, personally, it is new to me.

...

...

I think it could; the developers have the same constraints whether they're paid to develop or not, and the technical people answering the questions (in my experience) have been volunteers. I used to be one myself in the Novell forums years ago.

The primary difference with an open project is that of accessibility to the "back line" and to the developers. But the mechanism of filtering those escalations is something that I see as equally valid regardless (not talking about 'proxy bug reports' here, just the filtering of the "I can't print" type posts from backline/development level assistance unless there's an actual problem that needs to be fixed).

And it would make for faster solving. It is discouraging to find that the first answer on a bugzilla that took many hours to investigate and report is not written till several months later. Perhaps better "triaging" (is that the word?) would help.

Triaging would apply to coding a quick fix; it would be additional troubleshooting before a bug is raised. The ideal workflow, I think is:

1. User reports problem (through forums, MLs, whatever) and asks if it's been seen before 1a. User perhaps also searches bugzilla 2. User works with a 'front-line' SME to determine if it's a bug, configuration issue, or training issue (ie, the user didn't know what they needed to know). 3. If the problem is a bug, then the bug is reported by someone who has seen the problem (ie, the original poster or someone who has reproduced it) in bugzilla. 4. If the bug is a duplicate that just couldn't be found, the bug is flagged as a duplicate; otherwise, the bug is assigned a priority and put in the queue for a fix.

I've probably missed a few steps here, but this is the high level view of what I see as an 'ideal' flow (largely because it's the flow I tend to use myself).

I was rather thinking on the line of a group of people reading all new bugzillas, doing a fast assessment, asking for the typical logs or whatever is missing, all at most 36 hours after the initial report. Then advise the reporter about what is the typical response time on that kind of problem considering the current backlog. And forward to the proper team of people that handle that particular type of problem, if known. Sometimes I have reported a problem and then, 6 months later I get asked (first answer) to add some info or a log or whether I also had that other symptom. By that time I don't remember! Plus it is very discouraging for a reporter not to get a simple feedback in months. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAkwxxSUACgkQja8UbcUWM1y71QEAnSi9iDWtx6wIZO2SZ7jzVjWF dixoEyAAfNVSKr0kdhcA/A4n55gICBMf7k8EkzWDbQHio4Gag1aIvs0S+IGcycfl =wmR2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 13:42:29 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I was rather thinking on the line of a group of people reading all new bugzillas, doing a fast assessment, asking for the typical logs or whatever is missing, all at most 36 hours after the initial report. Then advise the reporter about what is the typical response time on that kind of problem considering the current backlog. And forward to the proper team of people that handle that particular type of problem, if known.

I've seen that sort of structure used internally with Novell's bugzilla - for example, when I submit a request to the web team, it goes to a holding "bucket" where someone looks at the request and then sends it off to the right person.

Sometimes I have reported a problem and then, 6 months later I get asked (first answer) to add some info or a log or whether I also had that other symptom. By that time I don't remember!

Or, in my case, often I don't have the system any more (might've upgraded it or wiped it to put something else on the hardware - I've got a couple laptops that I use for lab systems).

Plus it is very discouraging for a reporter not to get a simple feedback in months.

That's certainly true. :-) -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/25 Rupert Horstkötter <rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org>:

DenverD, All,

2010/6/24 DenverD <DenverD@texan.dk>:

...

WAIT--most of those are NOT worth reading!! but if we want to grow the community and increase the size of the group of potential contributors then while not worth _reading_ they ARE worth answering.

You actually hit the nail on the head.

Btw, I'm wondering why forums contributors should utilized to search for ten threads "worth reading". lol, is a forums contributor a slave by definition? Problem is that developers/contributors/experienced community members need to change their mind and accept the importance of the user crowd and last but not least the value of their existence for the sake of the openSUSE distribution and developers' work (if they'd utilize the feedback given). The goal should be, as DenverD rightly oulined, to actually get a better understanding of the actual demand/problems/need of the user community = our customer!

Slave? Are you joking? If *I* want a developer to fix the bugs *I* consider important *I* must convince that developer that such a bug is important. If *you* want people from here to go to the forums because *you* consider that important *you* must convince that people that going to the forums is important. That's obviating that if I select those ten posts you will complain because my selection is not good... Yes, if the feedback that we could obtain from the forums is so important we need to change our mind. Because, sincerely, I don't think that feedback is so important (and, again, I have more than 400 posts, I'm not totally disconnected from reality). I mean, you can go to the forums and ASK for feedback and get no answers (http://forums.opensuse.org/get-help-here/games/388758-request-funguloids-bug...). But for us to change our minds, *you* have to convince us. Looking at the list of problems DenverD listed: - 1-Click sucks and forum users hit again and again against that wall. We know: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-softwaremgmt/2008-12/msg00001.html. The problem has nothing to do with people not reading the forums but with lack of resources ("I'm sorry for not being more active in fixing some of these issues recently, I've had less time since starting a new job.") - black screens No idea how this is supposed to be fixed reading forums. Sure, when everything goes wrong and X.org can't recover you get a "black screen". We adopted the new xorg.conf-less X.org features, what else do you expect devs to do to fix it? And to add more I have seen in the forums: - To have the latest KDE you need to use the KKFD repository but that pushes updates/downloads too frequently, "not all of us have a broadband connection". Well, nobody noticed now we get less KKFD updates? https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=604049 - Nowadays not so much, but when Ubuntu implemented it there were a lot of "autoclean" requests http://mlandres.blogspot.com/2010/04/libzyppp-74-cleanup-when-deleting.html They matter, and I thing I'm showing there is already enough of us reading the forums to see their "big problems" (I don't really think there are a lot of them, 1-Click/repositories seems to be THE big problem). I'm not going to ask anybody to use the forums from time to time just to get users that "actually believed they mattered and the hackers cared about them". Most of the posts I read complaining about devs being disconnected from user needs are IMHO users that seem to live in a reality distortion field. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/25 Malcolm <malcolm_lewis@bellsouth.net>:

On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 14:19:36 +0200 Cristian Morales Vega <cmorve69@yahoo.es> wrote:

...

Yes, if the feedback that we could obtain from the forums is so important we need to change our mind. Because, sincerely, I don't think that feedback is so important (and, again, I have more than 400 posts, I'm not totally disconnected from reality). I mean, you can go to the forums and ASK for feedback and get no answers (http://forums.opensuse.org/get-help-here/games/388758-request-funguloids-bug...). But for us to change our minds, *you* have to convince us.

Hi With all due respect, picking a thread that was posted less than a month (9th thread started in the games subforum) after the forum introduction is probably not indicative should a developer ask a question.

Good point. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Jim Henderson <hendersj@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jun 2010 19:30:55 +0200, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

2010/6/24 Rupert Horstkötter <rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org>:

...

My proposal would be to sit together and bring issues to the table and think about resolving those, e.g. with a mailing list/forums integration. Even more important is to understand that forums are needed and it's impossible to align forum users to mailing lists. Get your ass to the forums (sorry!) and interact with the community of 45.000+ users out there. Teach them and lower the border into our community. Is that that difficult. Sorry but if you tell me it actually is, I'm not that sure if you're really serious with the goal in recruitinmg contributors and if I'm not completely out of discussion that's our common goal, isn't it?

Could you (or someone else) link to 10 forum threads from June worth reading? I must admit I never followed all the subforums, so perhaps I missed some interesting ones.

This doesn't pretends to be an attack in any way. Sincerely, if I read them correctly (not sure about that) the May stats say there were 1217 threads started, so 10 doesn't seems a big number. Since you are asking to assign resources to the forum, could you give ten examples of what would we achieve with that? This way everybody can judge by itself if it's worth the effort. Let's ignore for the moment all the filtering required to find those 10 threads, I just would like to see the top ten.

I would likely point to threads that have to do with sound troubleshooting and the ATI drivers (which oldcpu, one of the mods, does a lot of work on) - that sort of thing.

"worth reading" is very much in the eye of the beholder, though - something that I think is worth reading may not be something you think is worth reading (for whatever reason).

I'll admit that makes me personally hesitant to say "here are the 'top 10' threads from June" because of that difference in perception as to what's valuable.

http://forums.opensuse.org/get-help-here/hardware/440397-modprobe- question.html is a pretty good example of good interaction between members to resolve and explain a problem.

It also includes at least one post from someone who does development work on the b43 driver.

The hardware forum is one of the forums where a lot of good information is exchanged between users.

http://forums.opensuse.org/development/opensuse-build-service-obs/439672- error-translation-neither-enabled-nor-disabled-file.html is another good one with Malcolm (another of the mods) helping someone with an OBS issue they ran into.

Are they "best" examples?  Depends on your definition - but this is more typical of the type of conversation that takes place as compared to pretty much anything in the soapbox or general chat forums, which seems to be where the negative opinions of the forums come from.

Jim

--  Jim Henderson  Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

I don't follow the forums, but I have stumbled across good discussions there when googling an issue I'm trying to resolve. I'd say there seem to me more good threads on the forums than in the opensuse english user mailing list. My issue is I just don't like forums, sorry. Maybe some of those more technical forums could be gated to an appropriate mailing list? Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer wrote:

My issue is I just don't like forums, sorry. Maybe some of those more technical forums could be gated to an appropriate mailing list?

they are already 'gated' (to nntp)...use any newsreader and you don't even have to give a pass or ID... full cloak if you just wanna read....personally i'd prefer full disclosure so 'they' see the devs there.. ymmv dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 24 Jun 2010 23:23:58 +0200, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

2010/6/24 Jim Henderson <hendersj@gmail.com>:

...

I would likely point to threads that have to do with sound troubleshooting and the ATI drivers (which oldcpu, one of the mods, does a lot of work on) - that sort of thing.

Do it. Still I like to think that we have not so much problems. If there is a problem with the ATI driver either report it in bugzilla or, if it's a problem with the binary driver that we can't fix, document the workaround. Why oldcpu needs to answer to so much threads about ATI drivers? The same about sound.

Most of the ATI driver questions (and nVidia driver questions for that matter) end up being pointers to the HowTos; from an audio standpoint, 11.2 is *much* better than earlier releases - Lee commented that with the audio fixes in 11.2 (at the time of release) he was going to have to learn another part of the system because it was so much better in 11.2.

...

"worth reading" is very much in the eye of the beholder, though - something that I think is worth reading may not be something you think is worth reading (for whatever reason).

It's not me. Each subscriber of this list will decide by himself.

Well, yes, that's my point - coming up with "10 good threads from June" is thus a difficult prospect. It's easy to point out bad threads because either they're very argumentative or the information is factually incorrect. Finding good (or exceptional) threads is a much harder prospect.

...

http://forums.opensuse.org/get-help-here/hardware/440397-modprobe- question.html is a pretty good example of good interaction between members to resolve and explain a problem.

Not that I'm interested in problems with less than latest openSUSE version. But sure, it is not a bad thread.

I didn't even note the version - see, for me, that thread was good not because of the version, but because of the interaction between the participants.

...

http://forums.opensuse.org/development/opensuse-build-service- obs/439672- error-translation-neither-enabled-nor-disabled-file.html is another good one with Malcolm (another of the mods) helping someone with an OBS issue they ran into.

Not my ideal thread. But yes, it could have been in opensuse-packaging.

Yes, it probably could have been. Similarly, we have a Studio forum that gets fairly light traffic, but usually gets a good response - even if it's "submit this as feedback so we can track it down" from James Tan - that's a perfectly valid solution. James and I had talked a few weeks ago about integrating the ML into the forum; the discussion has stalled out for the moment as I think we both ended up with other things on our respective plates.

But now I fail to see where is the problem. It seems there is people in the forums with the knowledge to answer the raised questions. Why then there is a request for more ML people/devs using the forums?

Partly for a sense of feeling like the forums "belong" in the overall project, partly for a sense of feeling like the forum membership has a voice in the project. It's a question of visibility within the dev portion of the community. It's generally far more efficient to not have to redirect people from one place to another - that kind of smoothness (which Rupert talked about a bit in his message) that's somewhat lacking here. There are other reasons as well that others are probably more in tune to than me. DenverD - any comment on this? (I ask for his input because he's one who mentions the absence) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

* Rupert Horstkötter <rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org> [2010-06-25 11:41]:

We want to grow the contributing community and to achieve this we urgently need to INTERFACE with the user community as our chance is to 1. recruit contributors out of those and 2. get as much feedback about our product back to the contributing community in order to improve it.

Without a clear marketing/market focus and acceptance of the customers' crowd needs, demands and communication media they are used to we'll fail to achieve our common goal outlined above. Thus I'm talking about changing people's mind, thus I'm asking for forums participation, thus I'm focusing on the social part of the problem. The situation as is isn't changeable and is there by definition .. It's therefore inappropriate to discuss about their pros and cons BUT what we can do is being smart and adopt to reality, i.e. interface with the users in a given communication structure.

Either we, at some point in time understand, that we work/contribute for the customer and the success of the openSUSE distribution/project OR we'll, at least from my perspective, ultimately fail in growing this beast here (our community) to something effective and forceful!

To point this out and to raise people's attention on that particular matter I initially decided to join this discussion. I hope it'll be fruitful :-)

Very well put, now we're back at discussing strategies. The above paragraphs also restate the reasons why I think the three initial strategy proposals are actually harmful as they try impose a rather arbitrary direction and focus on the project (as evident from the great divergence between these proposals) from above while disregarding a large part of our _existing_ user base. -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hi, On 22.06.2010 12:59, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

Let's enhance the community statement with a goal of uniting the different means of communication

People ARE different. You CANT unify how they communicate. The only goal you will reach with unification is equalization. And we all know that leads to unexceptional, average and undistinguished communication. Which is exactly what we DON'T need. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2010-06-23 at 11:22 +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

On Wednesday 23 June 2010 11:18:29 Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

Hi,

On 22.06.2010 12:59, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Let's enhance the community statement with a goal of uniting the different means of communication

People ARE different. You CANT unify how they communicate.

The only goal you will reach with unification is equalization. And we all know that leads to unexceptional, average and undistinguished communication. Which is exactly what we DON'T need.

Bad wording on my side ;) What I mean is uniting the communities independent of communication media. For example the forum users should feel as much part of the community as others. Right now we fail here,

Andreas

I think it's not just about unity and culture. I think what we have always failed to do efficiently is at least have someone who monitors the communications in each media form and then conveys what's being said here or there. I think its impossible to join all media forms into one unified place. And in fact, I think that some separation is nice. But what we often fail to do is keep an eye on what everyone is saying. I know I fail tremendously at that and I've kept saying "We need to look at what Forum folks are saying." I'm definitely guilty of speaking words but not putting into action. We may not be the largest community out there, but we are sufficiently large and communicative enough that any one person being able to monitor everything is just sheer madness. And its not just the Forums that get marginalized, there's also the Facebook crowd (there's about 6,000 there.) We *do* need to modify our community statement that at the very least ensures that the Project and its leadership become more aware of what all groups are saying. Only then can we truly and effectively unite the community as a whole. The question is... How? Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 24 Jun 2010 06:58:20 +0200, Marcus Moeller wrote:

I think important forum threads/posts should be 'raised' to the corresponding lists by forum administrators.

One who feels responsible should then step in and take care (everyone of us should be able to log in to the forums and to reply to a thread. at least me is already doing so).

This is how it works @CentOS and it works fine so far.

This seems like a good idea to me; I've been discussing an idea like this to with some of the forum members and it seems to be being well-received as well. The biggest concern expressed was that we not limit people from participating in other venues (such as restricting bug entry) and using this type of 'escalation' as a replacement for that. I don't see how or why we'd do that, though. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 24 Jun 2010 19:27:20 +0200, Marcus Moeller wrote:

Dear Jim,

...

...

I think important forum threads/posts should be 'raised' to the corresponding lists by forum administrators.

One who feels responsible should then step in and take care (everyone of us should be able to log in to the forums and to reply to a thread. at least me is already doing so).

This is how it works @CentOS and it works fine so far.

This seems like a good idea to me; I've been discussing an idea like this to with some of the forum members and it seems to be being well-received as well.  The biggest concern expressed was that we not limit people from participating in other venues (such as restricting bug entry) and using this type of 'escalation' as a replacement for that.  I don't see how or why we'd do that, though.

Could we perhaps arrange (regular) irc meetings with all forum moderators?

That might be a good place to start. I know when we made the change to have our admin group (I'm one of three, plus we have a technical administrator), we were invited to participate in the project meeting that week, but I was on holiday when that took place, and I know at least one of the others was unavailable as well). The three of us are very geographically distributed - I'm in Utah, Carl is in the UK, and John is in Australia - if I remember correctly. The mod team is similarly distributed globally. Not that that's a huge problem for getting some to attend such a discussion, of course, but something to be aware of (as I'm sure everyone here is since the entire project is highly distributed geographically). Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 24 Jun 2010 19:25:33 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

On Thursday 24 June 2010 13:35:54 Jim Henderson wrote:

...

The three of us are very geographically distributed - I'm in Utah, Carl is in the UK, and John is in Australia - if I remember correctly.

The mod team is similarly distributed globally. Not that that's a huge problem for getting some to attend such a discussion, of course, but something to be aware of (as I'm sure everyone here is since the entire project is highly distributed geographically).

Which makes idea to use forums easier to accept :)

I mentioned few times that distributed community should resort to different meeting medium and procedure.

I believe there's room for both synchronous and asynchronous communication - both have their place, and both have advantages and disadvantages. Interestingly (perhaps), this is something that in my day job we're looking at as well - I work in Novell's training department, and we're doing a lot of work around the differences between instructor-led classroom training (synchronous) and on-demand (asynchronous) methods of learning and distributing knowledge. Carlos Ribeiro's post from about 3 hours ago reminded me that something I'd like to see pursued is some community development of open Linux (and openSUSE specifically) training material development. But that's certainly a topic for a different thread.

Forum via NNTP interface can be good, there is no lag, message is stored, and agenda can be discussed using one thread per topic, or list item, unlike this email discussion, it will be easy to focus on items that one wants to discuss and leave out those that are out of interest. Problem is that messages are not displayed, so reader has to go back and forth between messages to read discussion.

There is a little bit of lag - gating the messages back and forth between the NNTP server and the web interface is a cron job that runs every 10 minutes.

The web interface can be used too, but it should be way simpler then current. Something that will allow more lines per page, some indentation to mark threading. In short simulation of IRC window with ability to add comments right behind messages. Maybe that can be achieved with CSS?

We are in the process of upgrading the forum software; one of the guidelines (maybe closer to "rule") is that we don't want to do very heavy customization of the interface because that interferes with software updates and increases testing time for any updates (security patches in particular) that may need to be rolled out quickly. That said, there are generally a couple of templates available; we're always open to suggestions, but the acceptance does have the caveat that it not require template changes - CSS shouldn't, I don't think, require any recoding (we're using the opensuse.org site template with the update - there's a screenshot from the staging servers at: http://thumbnails26.imagebam.com/8566/d01d5085654103.jpg The web interface (structure, look/feel) is something that has been the subject of much debate in the forums. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 19:52:17 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

On Thursday 24 June 2010 23:36:21 Jim Henderson wrote:

...

There is a little bit of lag - gating the messages back and forth between the NNTP server and the web interface is a cron job that runs every 10 minutes.

Anything event driven? (now I know why I have to wait to see my post)

Nope. We've got someone who's made modifications on the gateway software, but there are many other features we'd like to see but Marcel just hasn't had the time to write more code. One of the biggest complaints we get from people who come from a pure "web forum" world (which I don't, I come from an NNTP world myself) is that they can't edit messages after the window closes. This is because the gateway doesn't handle edits at all - though the NNTP protocol does have capabilities for superceding old posts (which is how I think edits could be handled). It also doesn't handle forum thread/message moves very gracefully (read: at all). To move messages effectively becomes much more of a challenge because the server timestamps the posts, which means reposting the messages would cause them to be timestamped at a different time from when the message was originally posted. In my mind, the ideal would be for it to be event driven (bidirectionally). I find I often post a reply to a message and someone else replies from the web interface in that 10 minute window; two answers are better than none, but if the answers are contradictory, that can lead to a little confusion.

...

...

The web interface can be used too, but it should be way simpler then current.

...

... the caveat that it not require template changes - CSS shouldn't, I don't think, require any recoding ...

It should not require any change in a code if number of posts per page can be increased, or set to unlimited, by some system variable.

The css will rely on existing elements and it will actually ignore some of them that are superfluous for this type of discussion. It can be listed as one of skins.

That's fair. I talked with Kim (the technical admin) about this, and he said when it's done, we intend to have one template - the CSS coming from opensuse.org. As I understand it vBulletin's template (which controls the layout of elements on the page - ie, message list, message text, thread view, forum overview, etc) is in code and that'll stay stock. The CSS all comes from the new openSUSE pages. (This will be active when they finish the iChain integration work, which is underway and has been for a few weeks now).

Apropos another thread: The communication issues are to blame for high percentage of problems we have, either directly as lack of appropriate path for the message, or indirectly, inducing issues that otherwise would not exist.

I can open the thread when I sort things out. It was long ago when I used this knowledge and I need update first :) (anyone to help, give directions :)

That sounds good to me. Stephan's thread is a good starting point and I think we might see some of those communication issues come out in that discussion, too. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:43:29 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Jim Henderson wrote:

...

Nope. We've got someone who's made modifications on the gateway software, but there are many other features we'd like to see but Marcel just hasn't had the time to write more code.

There seems to be a minor issue in handling utf-8 as well.

...

In my mind, the ideal would be for it to be event driven (bidirectionally). I find I often post a reply to a message and someone else replies from the web interface in that 10 minute window;

Or run the update more frequently - every minute perhaps?

That limits the edit window for the web interface users. 10 minutes was decided after a fair amount of discussion as a compromise that would let web users make quick changes (fix typos and that sort of thing) after posting. Myself, I never have seen the need to do edits after I post - I treat forums like e-mail; once I send, it's sent, and if I want to fix it, I should've done that before I hit "send". But other people work in a different way and I can respect that, even though it's not my way of working. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 28/06/2010 18:58, Jim Henderson a écrit :

Myself, I never have seen the need to do edits after I post - I treat forums like e-mail; once I send, it's sent, and if I want to fix it, I should've done that before I hit "send". But other people work in a different way and I can respect that, even though it's not my way of working.

large parts of the forums are seen as "howtos", a forum tend to be self contained, it have some threads that are only mailing-list like, discussions, but other (look at the closed treads on the opensuse forum) are more like the wiki. For them, 10 minutes is too short. I know I could probably write as moderator (I am, for the french forum), but I tend to prefere to use my simple user login, to see the interface exactly like an ordinary user jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-06-28 19:31, jdd wrote:

Le 28/06/2010 18:58, Jim Henderson a écrit :

large parts of the forums are seen as "howtos", a forum tend to be self contained, it have some threads that are only mailing-list like, discussions, but other (look at the closed treads on the opensuse forum) are more like the wiki. For them, 10 minutes is too short.

Then, the NNTP interface has to be clever and write that modification back to the nntp side again... or do nothing and leave those users with an incorrect version (which is what happens, I believe). Otherwise, don't send to the nntp server till after 10 minutes it was posted on the forum. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwpMtsACgkQU92UU+smfQXnpACfctrmeRQoteBzzE0yK4hoXQIB 1QMAmQGgeYEtZS3sjUO+CbqJyaTvhNaw =e6rA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 08:17:10 +0200, jdd wrote:

Le 29/06/2010 01:40, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

...

forum) are more like the wiki. For them, 10 minutes is too short.

Then, the NNTP interface has to be clever and write that modification back to the nntp side again... or do nothing and leave those users with an incorrect version (which is what happens, I believe). Otherwise, don't send to the nntp server till after 10 minutes it was posted on the forum.

I think the problem is that the message content is sent to all the forum subscribers by mail after the 10 minutes delay (I receive it often before it is written to the forum :-)

That delay is for the NNTP gateway - if we're talking direct to e-mail gateway, I don't know that such a delay is necessary; but I also don't know how edits to messages are handled with the mail gateway. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:43:29 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Nope. We've got someone who's made modifications on the gateway software, but there are many other features we'd like to see but Marcel just hasn't had the time to write more code.

There seems to be a minor issue in handling utf-8 as well.

I occasionally (forgot to comment on this) see this as well - I think it happens more frequently with the non-English forums if the poster hasn't selected the correct language in the language selector. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 20:51:36 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Jim Henderson wrote:

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On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:43:29 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

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Nope. We've got someone who's made modifications on the gateway software, but there are many other features we'd like to see but Marcel just hasn't had the time to write more code.

There seems to be a minor issue in handling utf-8 as well.

I occasionally (forgot to comment on this) see this as well - I think it happens more frequently with the non-English forums if the poster hasn't selected the correct language in the language selector.

What I noticed was that my NNTP posting in UTF-8 was not seen as such in the forum - just an observation, it really is a very minor issue.

Oh, I see - can you send me a link to the posting? I'd like to have a look at it and see for myself. There might be something that can be done about that. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

let's get a look at the way one can use various medias. * mailing list: -You can choose wich mailing list you receive (there is no such subscription as "all openSUSE mailing lists") -you can remove (eventually fiter to null) the threads that donc interest you -you can delete all the mails you have read (or move then to archives), but keep on the INBOX all the ones that need attention, now or two weeks later -you can sort the list(s) at will on various folders -if you rely on mailing lists archives, you can't answer to an old post, nor write to the post author (obfuscation) -there are vcarious setup of reply to that makes use of several lists difficult * news (nntp) -you don't have to load the uninteresting threads -news forums can have thousand of posts (not easy to read though) -you can subscribe or unsubscribe very easily -you can answer even to an old thread (sometime vasting your work, as nobody listen anymore) - archiving is pretty complicated - posts can be cancelled by the author, sometime removing errors, but sometime removing proofs -some server do not keep messages very long -you can dl the messages, but only if you know how to setup a nntp server * forums (BB code) - easy to read with a simple browser -threads can be arranged by moderators -initial post is it's archive, so one can read all and answer to old threads (if not closed by moderators) -very often a thread receive questions with no relation to the initial subject. opening a new subject is not as easy as in nntp or mailing lists - moderators needed, probably for a reason - openSUSE forums warn by mail when a change is made, and the mail include the forum message, allowing archiving (good) -one can't really follow only one kind of subject, forum are global, even sub language forums are *sub* (very annoyng) -it's difficult to mark a hole forum "read" -much space wasted on the page (but it's a css problem, could be easily solved) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-06-28 23:46, jdd wrote:

let's get a look at the way one can use various medias.

* mailing list: ... -if you rely on mailing lists archives, you can't answer to an old post, nor write to the post author (obfuscation)

You can if you download and import the corresponding mbox archive ;-) But true, it is not point and click.

* news (nntp)

- archiving is pretty complicated

Local archive? Yes... well, you can via leafnode.

- posts can be cancelled by the author, sometime removing errors, but sometime removing proofs

They can? Didn't know this.

-some server do not keep messages very long -you can dl the messages, but only if you know how to setup a nntp server

Thunderbird can. I think.

* forums (BB code)

No off-line reading. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwpNMkACgkQU92UU+smfQVchQCePH1Xm9huXj2q+craZJGk9nc5 QVsAoJHOEJlu/lcY4WKcKc49q1dD4AAf =jFP+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 20:19:18 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2010-06-26 02:52, Rajko M. wrote:

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On Thursday 24 June 2010 23:36:21 Jim Henderson wrote:

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There is a little bit of lag - gating the messages back and forth between the NNTP server and the web interface is a cron job that runs every 10 minutes.

Anything event driven? (now I know why I have to wait to see my post)

:-)

Now that I think: gmame does gating of our mail lists to an NNTP interface, on both directions. Couldn't such a thing be used to somehow integrate these mail lists and our forums via nntp?

It could be done - the technical side isn't so difficult to manage, but the "cultural" side of that integration might be the bigger challenge. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 01:32:49 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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It could be done - the technical side isn't so difficult to manage, but the "cultural" side of that integration might be the bigger challenge.

I understand that gmame requires somekind of registration, to validate your email. It could be done on a different server than the forum nntp, and have different rules (if wanted). As a first step :-?

The setup there is a little different; I understand that to gate to the forums from e-mail, you set up an e-mail address that subscribes to the list, and then the gateway handles passing messages to/from the list. I said elsewhere that what I think will happen is after the vBulletin upgrade is done, we'll do some testing with that. But the larger issue is that cultural issue - differences in behavioural standards between the lists and the forums, for example. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 09:17:19 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Jim Henderson wrote:

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On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 01:32:49 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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It could be done - the technical side isn't so difficult to manage, but the "cultural" side of that integration might be the bigger challenge.

I understand that gmame requires somekind of registration, to validate your email. It could be done on a different server than the forum nntp, and have different rules (if wanted). As a first step :-?

The setup there is a little different; I understand that to gate to the forums from e-mail, you set up an e-mail address that subscribes to the list, and then the gateway handles passing messages to/from the list.

For gmane, the list is the master to which everything else is slaved. The web- and nntp interfaces are just that - interfaces.

Yes, that's my understanding of how it works as well. But I think (I don't know for certain) that while the list is the master, the NNTP server itself probably has its own database (it does run on INN), so in that regard, it's not entirely dissimilar.

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But the larger issue is that cultural issue - differences in behavioural standards between the lists and the forums, for example.

I think the main reason those two cultures are so different is that they have been kept segregated - neither has had an impact on the other.

Yes - and there are portions where those groups maybe don't need to overlap as much today. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 13:26:24 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

But beware, inviting the mail list croud to the forums (via nntp) could be "dangerous" for them. We old hands love to talk, and nntp is how we communicated a decade or two ago... it means returning to our roots. We simply did not know there was such a large audience so near. Beware, we come! >:-P

(kidding)

I know it well - I love to just chat as well - fortunately, we've got a place for that. :-) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 19:10:37 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

On Monday 28 June 2010 11:56:16 Jim Henderson wrote:

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It could be done - the technical side isn't so difficult to manage, but the "cultural" side of that integration might be the bigger challenge.

The "cultural" is matter of education. First those that should give a help then those that ask for help. Right now the whole load of learning is on those that already have a lot learning on their head, new users.

Oldtimers should understand that landscape is changing. Majority of new users that install Linux today have no technical background and habit to read the manuals. RTFM today is not understood as reminder to read the manual, but as "go away".

Absolutely, I agree on all counts. I think, though, that that education needs to start before putting all of the users into the same room. That education comes (in part) by the project defining a universal community standard of behaviour and consistent application of that standard. At least a standard where those portions of the community overlap. I think the guiding principles spell out significant elements of that standard of behaviour, but it may need to be more explicitly defined. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

Forum via NNTP interface can be good, there is no lag, message is stored, and agenda can be discussed using one thread per topic, or list item, unlike this email discussion, it will be easy to focus on items that one wants to discuss and leave out those that are out of interest.

Uh, I feed this mailing list to my newsserver and read it via nntp - which means I am able to ignore threads, mark tails as read etc etc. I'm pretty certain most regular/modern email progrtams will allow the same. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 23/06/2010 11:18, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :

People ARE different. You CANT unify how they communicate.

why do you think many of us use gmane? same lists, différent interface only jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org