Questions for Board candidates
Hi, we now have the campaign period for the Board election [1], so let's start some discussion. :-) I really liked both platforms, which doesn't make decision easier, but let's see... First usual question for everyone: if You are appointed as Board member, which new options does it open for You? I mean, You both are valuable contributors, You have been working like that for notable time already, and You can keep doing so even if You are not elected into the Board. So what new can You do in Board? What would You like to do, what is impossible without Board? How can Board move You forward? Maurizio, if I read Your platform [2] correctly, I see impressive contribution and experience, but I fail to find something like "election programme", i.e. Your plans for Your time in Board, what You wish to achieve, etc. Am I reading election profile, or "just" user profile...? Side comment, when we have election for academic senate of our faculty, plenty of candidates more or less just list their scientific work, basically CV, but don't elaborate, how they would act like "politicians" in the senate. I then think if I can decide only about level of expertise, or also how they are capable to cooperate, organize, find consensus and move the institution forward. So, Maurizio, if You could be more explicit in this way, it'd be great. Of course, people can vote for You based on Your great expertize, but given the Board's purpose, I'd rather expect people to emphasize their organizational, communication, mediating and other skills. And, of course, how they would like to move openSUSE forward. What is Your aim in Board? What is Your reason to candidate? Adathor, I found Your Motivation section [4] very interesting. The described issues indeed let a lot of bad blood behind... Despite You described various issues rather in indications, I wonder what do You propose as solution? I know it can't be easy, neither short process, but I suppose You have some steps or at least ideas in mind how to improve the situation. Could You be more concrete here? I ask because nice words about respect can stay just... nice words without any practical impact. Also, do You think the way how Board works, what is its purpose [3], etc. should/could/might be worth to discuss and possibly change? Similarly for overall governance of the project, direction where it is going to, etc. Going back to beginning, the "docracy" works in many aspects, but we also saw some examples, when it led to unpleasant conflicts... Thank You both in advance. :-) Sincerely, V. [1] <https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/project@lists.opensuse.org/ message/PEZNMKDNXZBJRVNS66RZDHOB5UMM67TA/> [2] <https://en.opensuse.org/User:Mauriziogalli> [3] <https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board> [4] <https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_election_2021_platform_adathor> -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/
Dne pátek 26. listopadu 2021 11:10:57 CET jste napsal(a):
Hi, we now have the campaign period for the Board election [1], so let's start some discussion. :-) I really liked both platforms, which doesn't make decision easier, but let's see... First usual question for everyone: if You are appointed as Board member, which new options does it open for You? I mean, You both are valuable contributors, You have been working like that for notable time already, and You can keep doing so even if You are not elected into the Board. So what new can You do in Board? What would You like to do, what is impossible without Board? How can Board move You forward? Maurizio, if I read Your platform [2] correctly, I see impressive contribution and experience, but I fail to find something like "election programme", i.e. Your plans for Your time in Board, what You wish to achieve, etc. Am I reading election profile, or "just" user profile...? Side comment, when we have election for academic senate of our faculty, plenty of candidates more or less just list their scientific work, basically CV, but don't elaborate, how they would act like "politicians" in the senate. I then think if I can decide only about level of expertise, or also how they are capable to cooperate, organize, find consensus and move the institution forward. So, Maurizio, if You could be more explicit in this way, it'd be great. Of course, people can vote for You based on Your great expertize, but given the Board's purpose, I'd rather expect people to emphasize their organizational, communication, mediating and other skills. And, of course, how they would like to move openSUSE forward. What is Your aim in Board? What is Your reason to candidate? Adathor, I found Your Motivation section [4] very interesting. The described issues indeed let a lot of bad blood behind... Despite You described various issues rather in indications, I wonder what do You propose as solution? I know it can't be easy, neither short process, but I suppose You have some steps or at least ideas in mind how to improve the situation. Could You be more concrete here? I ask because nice words about respect can stay just... nice words without any practical impact. Also, do You think the way how Board works, what is its purpose [3], etc. should/could/might be worth to discuss and possibly change? Similarly for overall governance of the project, direction where it is going to, etc. Going back to beginning, the "docracy" works in many aspects, but we also saw some examples, when it led to unpleasant conflicts... Thank You both in advance. :-) Sincerely, V.
[1] <https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/project@lists.opensuse.org/ message/PEZNMKDNXZBJRVNS66RZDHOB5UMM67TA/> [2] <https://en.opensuse.org/User:Mauriziogalli> [3] <https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board> [4] <https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_election_2021_platform_adathor>
It's sad there are no reactions. Without discussion there is no democracy. There seems to be overall low to zero interest in this elections. Well, I'll be little provoking, but under such situation, we could cancel all elections, dismiss Board and appoint The Wise One to rule us. :-) -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/
Op donderdag 2 december 2021 16:44:18 CET schreef Vojtěch Zeisek:
It's sad there are no reactions. Without discussion there is no democracy. There seems to be overall low to zero interest in this elections. Well, I'll be little provoking, but under such situation, we could cancel all elections, dismiss Board and appoint The Wise One to rule us. Eh, the start of the campaign has not yet started, because only two people stood up. So your question(s) are a bit premature.
-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board openSUSE Forums Team
Dne čtvrtek 2. prosince 2021 16:48:42 CET, Knurpht-openSUSE napsal(a):
Op donderdag 2 december 2021 16:44:18 CET schreef Vojtěch Zeisek:
It's sad there are no reactions. Without discussion there is no democracy. There seems to be overall low to zero interest in this elections. Well, I'll be little provoking, but under such situation, we could cancel all elections, dismiss Board and appoint The Wise One to rule us.
Eh, the start of the campaign has not yet started, because only two people stood up. So your question(s) are a bit premature.
Ah, sorry, [1] says "We have now started Phase 1" and [2] describes Phase 1 as (among others) "Campaign begins", and [1] also says "the nomination period for candidates (Phase 0) will be extended by two weeks, overlapping the three week campaigning period (phase 1).", so I'd say we are in the campaign... [1] <https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/project@lists.opensuse.org/ message/PEZNMKDNXZBJRVNS66RZDHOB5UMM67TA/> [2] <https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_election> -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/
On Thu 2021-12-02, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
Well, I'll be little provoking, but under such situation, we could cancel all elections, dismiss Board and appoint The Wise One to rule us. :-)
Well, just how would The Wise One or The Wise Ones be determined/ appointed? Maybe we could put together a list of potential candidates, then give everyone the chance to interact and them to present themselves, and let everyone (or at least openSUSE members) choose? Oh, wait... :-) :-) Gerald
Hi Vojtěch, Sorry for not replying sooner, and thank you for the questions. After conversing with other geekos I realized that somehow I messed with the email filtering. All emails from this mailing list were automatically archived since about a month ago, as a result I missed quite a few other emails :-). I understand the call for candidates has been extended to give more time for people to step up. Not sure if we should wait for more people running at this election before having a Q&A but I will answer you below anyway. On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 6:11 PM Vojtěch Zeisek <vojtech.zeisek@opensuse.org> wrote:
Hi, we now have the campaign period for the Board election [1], so let's start some discussion. :-) I really liked both platforms, which doesn't make decision easier, but let's see... First usual question for everyone: if You are appointed as Board member, which new options does it open for You? I mean, You both are valuable contributors, You have been working like that for notable time already, and You can keep doing so even if You are not elected into the Board. So what new can You do in Board? What would You like to do, what is impossible without Board? How can Board move You forward?
In general terms I just wanted to volunteer and help in a different part of the project, in this case governance, which seemed to be in need of people getting involved. I've had interactions with the current board members for a while now and we get along well, I've been to public board meetings and it was kind of a given that I would throw the hat in the ring this year as well. For most things one doesn't need to be a board member have a positive impact that helps the openSUSE project thrive. All contributions are valuable. However and similarly to my thoughts of last year elections, I personally think that myself being a board member would help me have more legitimacy when interacting with other communities and entities and makes building bridges easier. I hope that me being in this role can contribute in keeping the relationship between openSUSE, SUSE and any other entity or community and also individuals I interact with healthy.
Maurizio, if I read Your platform [2] correctly, I see impressive contribution and experience, but I fail to find something like "election programme", i.e. Your plans for Your time in Board, what You wish to achieve, etc. Am I reading election profile, or "just" user profile...?
The platform wasn't immediately available but was uploaded[0] earlier last week. [0] https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_election_2021_platform_m4u I hope to see a few more candidates running at this election before the candidate call period ends. Have a lot of fun, Maurizio
Hi, thank You, Maurizio :-) Dne středa 8. prosince 2021 18:47:15 CET, Maurizio Galli napsal(a):
On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 6:11 PM Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
First usual question for everyone: if You are appointed as Board member, which new options does it open for You? I mean, You both are valuable contributors, You have been working like that for notable time already, and You can keep doing so even if You are not elected into the Board. So what new can You do in Board? What would You like to do, what is impossible without Board? How can Board move You forward?
In general terms I just wanted to volunteer and help in a different part of the project, in this case governance, which seemed to be in need of people getting involved. I've had interactions with the current board members for a while now and we get along well, I've been to public board meetings and it was kind of a given that I would throw the hat in the ring this year as well.
Regarding governance, do You think the current governance model, purpose of the Board, etc. is the best, or it could be improved? I ask specifically because we all saw some issues in the Project during past year, so I wonder if some changes would help to prevent or at least mediate better such issues.
For most things one doesn't need to be a board member have a positive impact that helps the openSUSE project thrive. All contributions are valuable. However and similarly to my thoughts of last year elections, I personally think that myself being a board member would help me have more legitimacy when interacting with other communities and entities and makes building bridges easier.
Yes, Board membership, despite more or less lacking executive power, helps a lot in any contact.
I hope that me being in this role can contribute in keeping the relationship between openSUSE, SUSE and any other entity or community and also individuals I interact with healthy.
Definitely :-)
Maurizio, if I read Your platform [2] correctly, I see impressive contribution and experience, but I fail to find something like "election programme", i.e. Your plans for Your time in Board, what You wish to achieve, etc. Am I reading election profile, or "just" user profile...?
The platform wasn't immediately available but was uploaded[0] earlier last week. [0] https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_election_2021_platform_m4u
Thank You for the platform. :-) I like Your section about inspiring newcomers, it's crucial for any future development. What do You think are the biggest blocks preventing new people from contributing? And how to remove them? Restoring faith in Geeko is also condition needed for any future of the project. It's very sad we even have this as a topic to discuss... :-/ -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/
Hello Vojtech, On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 1:54 AM Vojtěch Zeisek <vojtech.zeisek@opensuse.org> wrote:
Regarding governance, do You think the current governance model, purpose of the Board, etc. is the best, or it could be improved? I ask specifically because we all saw some issues in the Project during past year, so I wonder if some changes would help to prevent or at least mediate better such issues.
The model is not perfect but a lot of the issues can be addressed with better transparency and also participation of the community, something that in my opinion has already been improved. Since the introduction of the board meetings that are open to the public to attend, guests are encouraged to raise issues at the end of the meetings however the attendance is usually rather low. It would be important to understand the reason, whether it is communication or simply people's schedule not permitting it. The framework of the Board is defined by the bylaws but if there is a gap between the Board's role and people's expectations, I think the community should be encouraged to discuss it openly.
The platform wasn't immediately available but was uploaded[0] earlier last week. [0] https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_election_2021_platform_m4u
Thank You for the platform. :-) I like Your section about inspiring newcomers, it's crucial for any future development. What do You think are the biggest blocks preventing new people from contributing? And how to remove them?
The biggest block may be that new people may not know that the entry bar to contributing to openSUSE is rather low and that anyone can have a meaningful impact, because of our do-ocracy aka "those who do, decide". Of course the impact may not be immediate and a packager may not submit things the right way from the start, but generally persevering will get them there, if we provide the right environment to do so. Whichever is our area, ideally us "veterans" could be mentoring new users, by giving guidance and support. But generally speaking we can also start from the simple things, for example if someone writes an email not following the netiquette or a bad bugzilla report, we reachout politely to explain rather than publicly embarrassing them.
Restoring faith in Geeko is also condition needed for any future of the project. It's very sad we even have this as a topic to discuss... :-/
It's a bitter pill but as community we are still here and I'd like to stay positive that things are going to be bright :D Best, Maurizio
On Mon 2021-12-13, Maurizio Galli wrote:
that in my opinion has already been improved. Since the introduction of the board meetings that are open to the public to attend, guests are encouraged to raise issues at the end of the meetings
A clarification maybe: everyone is very welcome to raise issues via https://code.opensuse.org/board/tickets/issues at any time which then usually are covered in the next board meeting. Board meetings being public and this tracker definitely are positive moves 2021 brought.
The framework of the Board is defined by the bylaws but if there is a gap between the Board's role and people's expectations, I think the community should be encouraged to discuss it openly.
Definitely. And rules are not cast in stone and can be adjusted.
Of course the impact may not be immediate and a packager may not submit things the right way from the start, but generally persevering will get them there, if we provide the right environment to do so.
This "right environment" is something we as a project have room to work on as several (potential) contributors shared with me. Gerald
Hi Vojtěch, Apologies for the late reply as well, I believe the campaign period started this Monday?... Maybe? Anyhow, Trying to address your questions below ^_^ -- Br, A. Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Friday, November 26th, 2021 at 5:10 PM, Vojtěch Zeisek <vojtech.zeisek@opensuse.org> wrote:
Hi,
we now have the campaign period for the Board election [1], so let's start
some discussion. :-) I really liked both platforms, which doesn't make
decision easier, but let's see...
First usual question for everyone: if You are appointed as Board member, which
new options does it open for You? I mean, You both are valuable contributors,
You have been working like that for notable time already, and You can keep
doing so even if You are not elected into the Board. So what new can You do in
Board? What would You like to do, what is impossible without Board? How can
Board move You forward?
"...and You can keep doing so even if You are not elected into the Board." Correct, and planning to do so exactly that no matter what. Being member of the Board changes little to nothing inside me, however, my goal is not to "gain power" and/or "dominate the project" hehe. My goal is to help stabilizing the project which may need some rule changes here and there. That can be done a bit easier from within the Board (maybe). Encouraging change in general must start at the Board level I believe, you know "lead with example". This project gave me so much, it would be selfish not to try and fix or strengthen things on a human level.
Maurizio, if I read Your platform [2] correctly, I see impressive contribution
and experience, but I fail to find something like "election programme", i.e.
Your plans for Your time in Board, what You wish to achieve, etc. Am I reading
election profile, or "just" user profile...?
Side comment, when we have election for academic senate of our faculty, plenty
of candidates more or less just list their scientific work, basically CV, but
don't elaborate, how they would act like "politicians" in the senate. I then
think if I can decide only about level of expertise, or also how they are
capable to cooperate, organize, find consensus and move the institution
forward.
So, Maurizio, if You could be more explicit in this way, it'd be great. Of
course, people can vote for You based on Your great expertize, but given the
Board's purpose, I'd rather expect people to emphasize their organizational,
communication, mediating and other skills. And, of course, how they would like
to move openSUSE forward. What is Your aim in Board? What is Your reason to
candidate?
Adathor, I found Your Motivation section [4] very interesting. The described
issues indeed let a lot of bad blood behind... Despite You described various
issues rather in indications, I wonder what do You propose as solution? I know
it can't be easy, neither short process, but I suppose You have some steps or
at least ideas in mind how to improve the situation. Could You be more
concrete here? I ask because nice words about respect can stay just... nice
words without any practical impact.
You're right, and this is exactly the reason why I even considered to throw my hat in the ring, and become a candidate. In most cases these remain words for XYZ reasons, but frankly the year 2021 in the history of openSUSE scared the hell out of me, and we need to realize that there is a problem in the project, in the community. Frankly I've been thinking quite a lot what to do in terms of steps to protect our contributors, one of which step is strengthening our moderation team across all platforms (IM platforms, this mailing list, etc), we need to look into the rules, change things up a bit that not only demands respect of one another, but also points out that these platforms are not designed with taking feature requests - which are easier to describe as demands in most cases - from users in mind. We need to educate a little better the community - especially new members - as how this project works, and that there are real living people putting in their time, and effort for free to keep everything alive. Anyhow, before I wonder off any further in my reply I believe that we __first__ need to identify the issue and the source of the issue at hand which may not seem as straight forward as it might be, but I believe that others as well done a pretty good job at doing this so lets say that we're aware. __Second__ I would look into the rules for these communication platforms, and change them up in a way where feature requests or "user demands" are limited or excluded entirely. __Third__ Strengthen the moderation teams where needed by actively "recruiting" volunteers for the task. __Fourth__ While we're at the moderation team we would also need to set some ground rules there too in a unified manner. Relying on the Guiding Principles is not always enough, and being living, feeling human beings our emotions can get the best of us from time to time. Let's have rules. __Fifth__ Change up the rules for the Board as well, especially when it comes to dealing with toxic members of the community. We need to stop "putting makeup on pigs" really. If we have a problem, and if we can't deal with that problem in a discrete manner, then use the ban hammer. Do what you were elected for, and lead the project, and keep it safe. __Sixth (this is a dream kind of thing or a "would be nice to have"__ An entrypoint to the developers which would be a team of people who filter what makes it's way to the developers, contributors, maintainers. Considering the number of projects we have in openSUSE this seems to be a crazy amount of work, but till there is a will, there is a way. Would be really interested to get feedback on this, but IMO a "great filter" as such could do some wonders. Devs or engineers who work on FOSS projects are doing so cause it's fun, and we as a whole benefit of them having fun greatly. Let's not kill the fun ;)
Also, do You think the way how Board
works, what is its purpose [3], etc. should/could/might be worth to discuss
and possibly change?
"The board should document decisions and policies." The Board should indeed do that, and introducing some change for the sake of the project is probably very much needed.
Similarly for overall governance of the project,
direction where it is going to, etc. Going back to beginning, the "docracy"
works in many aspects, but we also saw some examples, when it led to
unpleasant conflicts...
"Docracy" can work if regulated better. Come to realize I sound like that I want to create a police state, I can assure you that is not the case hahaha. Anyhow, the way I see docracy is throwing stuff on the wall and see what sticks. This is actually a bit which I wouldn't change much other than add some rules and moderation etc. it's all above. Having "green fields" is great, anybody being able to make one is even better. Problems arise when these are done by stepping over people, and disrespecting each other. Gets even worse when projects try and rush into a popularity contest. I have first hand experience with this, and all the issues of my project could've been solved by being polite and communicating better. That is all it would've take. My point is that we do have some ground rules for this, but many of them are just words, and in my opinion would be a much easier time if we would have these in writing for anyone to check on so new projects have a better starting point, better chances to survive, and potentially become valued parts of the project. Br, A.
Thank You both in advance. :-)
Sincerely,
V.
[1] <https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/project@lists.opensuse.org/
message/PEZNMKDNXZBJRVNS66RZDHOB5UMM67TA/>
[2] https://en.opensuse.org/User:Mauriziogalli
[3] https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board
[4] https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_election_2021_platform_adathor
Vojtěch Zeisek
Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu
Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Thursday, December 9th, 2021 at 11:08 AM, Attila Pinter <adathor@protonmail.com> wrote:
Hi Vojtěch,
Apologies for the late reply as well, I believe the campaign period started this Monday?... Maybe? Anyhow, Trying to address your questions below ^_^
-- Br, A.
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Friday, November 26th, 2021 at 5:10 PM, Vojtěch Zeisek vojtech.zeisek@opensuse.org wrote:
Hi,
we now have the campaign period for the Board election [1], so let's start
some discussion. :-) I really liked both platforms, which doesn't make
decision easier, but let's see...
First usual question for everyone: if You are appointed as Board member, which
new options does it open for You? I mean, You both are valuable contributors,
You have been working like that for notable time already, and You can keep
doing so even if You are not elected into the Board. So what new can You do in
Board? What would You like to do, what is impossible without Board? How can
Board move You forward?
"...and You can keep doing so even if You are not elected into the Board." Correct, and planning to do so exactly that no matter what. Being member of the Board changes little to nothing inside me, however, my goal is not to "gain power" and/or "dominate the project" hehe. My goal is to help stabilizing the project which may need some rule changes here and there. That can be done a bit easier from within the Board (maybe). Encouraging change in general must start at the Board level I believe, you know "lead with example". This project gave me so much, it would be selfish not to try and fix or strengthen things on a human level.
Maurizio, if I read Your platform [2] correctly, I see impressive contribution
and experience, but I fail to find something like "election programme", i.e.
Your plans for Your time in Board, what You wish to achieve, etc. Am I reading
election profile, or "just" user profile...?
Side comment, when we have election for academic senate of our faculty, plenty
of candidates more or less just list their scientific work, basically CV, but
don't elaborate, how they would act like "politicians" in the senate. I then
think if I can decide only about level of expertise, or also how they are
capable to cooperate, organize, find consensus and move the institution
forward.
So, Maurizio, if You could be more explicit in this way, it'd be great. Of
course, people can vote for You based on Your great expertize, but given the
Board's purpose, I'd rather expect people to emphasize their organizational,
communication, mediating and other skills. And, of course, how they would like
to move openSUSE forward. What is Your aim in Board? What is Your reason to
candidate?
Adathor, I found Your Motivation section [4] very interesting. The described
issues indeed let a lot of bad blood behind... Despite You described various
issues rather in indications, I wonder what do You propose as solution? I know
it can't be easy, neither short process, but I suppose You have some steps or
at least ideas in mind how to improve the situation. Could You be more
concrete here? I ask because nice words about respect can stay just... nice
words without any practical impact.
You're right, and this is exactly the reason why I even considered to throw my hat in the ring, and become a candidate. In most cases these remain words for XYZ reasons, but frankly the year 2021 in the history of openSUSE scared the hell out of me, and we need to realize that there is a problem in the project, in the community. Frankly I've been thinking quite a lot what to do in terms of steps to protect our contributors, one of which step is strengthening our moderation team across all platforms (IM platforms, this mailing list, etc), we need to look into the rules, change things up a bit that not only demands respect of one another, but also points out that these platforms are not designed with taking feature requests - which are easier to describe as demands in most cases - from users in mind. We need to educate a little better the community - especially new members - as how this project works, and that there are real living people putting in their time, and effort for free to keep everything alive.
Anyhow, before I wonder off any further in my reply I believe that we first need to identify the issue and the source of the issue at hand which may not seem as straight forward as it might be, but I believe that others as well done a pretty good job at doing this so lets say that we're aware.
Second I would look into the rules for these communication platforms, and change them up in a way where feature requests or "user demands" are limited or excluded entirely.
Third Strengthen the moderation teams where needed by actively "recruiting" volunteers for the task.
Fourth While we're at the moderation team we would also need to set some ground rules there too in a unified manner. Relying on the Guiding Principles is not always enough, and being living, feeling human beings our emotions can get the best of us from time to time. Let's have rules.
Fifth Change up the rules for the Board as well, especially when it comes to dealing with toxic members of the community. We need to stop "putting makeup on pigs" really. If we have a problem, and if we can't deal with that problem in a discrete manner, then use the ban hammer. Do what you were elected for, and lead the project, and keep it safe.
Sixth (this is a dream kind of thing or a "would be nice to have" An entrypoint to the developers which would be a team of people who filter what makes it's way to the developers, contributors, maintainers. Considering the number of projects we have in openSUSE this seems to be a crazy amount of work, but till there is a will, there is a way. Would be really interested to get feedback on this, but IMO a "great filter" as such could do some wonders. Devs or engineers who work on FOSS projects are doing so cause it's fun, and we as a whole benefit of them having fun greatly. Let's not kill the fun ;)
Would like to add here that I would like these changes to be a discussion. This bit is very important to me, and it seems that I was rambling long enough I forgot to mention it... These changes can't be done by a single individual, and it definitely needs to involvement of the community.
Also, do You think the way how Board
works, what is its purpose [3], etc. should/could/might be worth to discuss
and possibly change?
"The board should document decisions and policies." The Board should indeed do that, and introducing some change for the sake of the project is probably very much needed.
Similarly for overall governance of the project,
direction where it is going to, etc. Going back to beginning, the "docracy"
works in many aspects, but we also saw some examples, when it led to
unpleasant conflicts...
"Docracy" can work if regulated better. Come to realize I sound like that I want to create a police state, I can assure you that is not the case hahaha. Anyhow, the way I see docracy is throwing stuff on the wall and see what sticks. This is actually a bit which I wouldn't change much other than add some rules and moderation etc. it's all above. Having "green fields" is great, anybody being able to make one is even better. Problems arise when these are done by stepping over people, and disrespecting each other. Gets even worse when projects try and rush into a popularity contest. I have first hand experience with this, and all the issues of my project could've been solved by being polite and communicating better. That is all it would've take. My point is that we do have some ground rules for this, but many of them are just words, and in my opinion would be a much easier time if we would have these in writing for anyone to check on so new projects have a better starting point, better chances to survive, and potentially become valued parts of the project.
Br,
A.
Thank You both in advance. :-)
Sincerely,
V.
[1] <https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/project@lists.opensuse.org/
message/PEZNMKDNXZBJRVNS66RZDHOB5UMM67TA/>
[2] https://en.opensuse.org/User:Mauriziogalli
[3] https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board
[4] https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_election_2021_platform_adathor
Vojtěch Zeisek
Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu
Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux
Hi, thank You, Adathor :-) Dne čtvrtek 9. prosince 2021 6:50:16 CET jste napsal(a):
On Thursday, December 9th, 2021 at 11:08 AM, Attila Pinter wrote:
On Friday, November 26th, 2021 at 5:10 PM, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
So what new can You do in Board? What would You like to do, what is impossible without Board? How can Board move You forward?
"...and You can keep doing so even if You are not elected into the Board." Correct, and planning to do so exactly that no matter what. Being member of the Board changes little to nothing inside me, however, my goal is not to "gain power" and/or "dominate the project" hehe. My goal is to help stabilizing the project which may need some rule changes here and there. That can be done a bit easier from within the Board (maybe). Encouraging change in general must start at the Board level I believe, you know "lead with example". This project gave me so much, it would be selfish not to try and fix or strengthen things on a human level.
I like You candidate with a vision. I have feeling that most of people would agree there is need of some changes. Question is if we find consensus, which changes are needed. :-)
Adathor, I found Your Motivation section [4] very interesting. The described issues indeed let a lot of bad blood behind... Despite You described various issues rather in indications, I wonder what do You propose as solution? I know it can't be easy, neither short process, but I suppose You have some steps or at least ideas in mind how to improve the situation. Could You be more concrete here? I ask because nice words about respect can stay just... nice words without any practical impact.
You're right, and this is exactly the reason why I even considered to throw my hat in the ring, and become a candidate. In most cases these remain words for XYZ reasons, but frankly the year 2021 in the history of openSUSE scared the hell out of me, and we need to realize that there is a problem in the project, in the community. Frankly I've been thinking quite a lot what to do in terms of steps to protect our contributors, one of which step is strengthening our moderation team across all platforms (IM platforms, this mailing list, etc), we need to look into the rules, change things up a bit that not only demands respect of one another, but also points out that these platforms are not designed with taking feature requests - which are easier to describe as demands in most cases - from users in mind. We need to educate a little better the community - especially new members - as how this project works, and that there are real living people putting in their time, and effort for free to keep everything alive. Anyhow, before I wonder off any further in my reply I believe that we first need to identify the issue and the source of the issue at hand which may not seem as straight forward as it might be, but I believe that others as well done a pretty good job at doing this so lets say that we're aware. Second I would look into the rules for these communication platforms, and change them up in a way where feature requests or "user demands" are limited or excluded entirely. Third Strengthen the moderation teams where needed by actively "recruiting" volunteers for the task. Fourth While we're at the moderation team we would also need to set some ground rules there too in a unified manner. Relying on the Guiding Principles is not always enough, and being living, feeling human beings our emotions can get the best of us from time to time. Let's have rules. Fifth Change up the rules for the Board as well, especially when it comes to dealing with toxic members of the community. We need to stop "putting makeup on pigs" really. If we have a problem, and if we can't deal with that problem in a discrete manner, then use the ban hammer. Do what you were elected for, and lead the project, and keep it safe. Sixth (this is a dream kind of thing or a "would be nice to have" An entrypoint to the developers which would be a team of people who filter what makes it's way to the developers, contributors, maintainers. Considering the number of projects we have in openSUSE this seems to be a crazy amount of work, but till there is a will, there is a way. Would be really interested to get feedback on this, but IMO a "great filter" as such could do some wonders. Devs or engineers who work on FOSS projects are doing so cause it's fun, and we as a whole benefit of them having fun greatly. Let's not kill the fun ;)
Would like to add here that I would like these changes to be a discussion. This bit is very important to me, and it seems that I was rambling long enough I forgot to mention it... These changes can't be done by a single individual, and it definitely needs to involvement of the community.
I really like how concrete You are in the above reply. It sounds like a good roadmap, which should be in any case adopted by the Board. Realizing it will although require broad consensus in the in Project, I can image that points like stronger moderation or more frequent banning could raise yet another waves among people... So yes, long and possibly painful discussion would be needed...
Also, do You think the way how Board works, what is its purpose [3], etc. should/could/might be worth to discuss and possibly change?
"The board should document decisions and policies." The Board should indeed do that, and introducing some change for the sake of the project is probably very much needed.
Do You mean (better) description of decisions in minutes or so, or rather setting some rules/guidelines/bylaws/... for Board itself, how to handle common situations, etc, or something else?
Similarly for overall governance of the project, direction where it is going to, etc. Going back to beginning, the "docracy" works in many aspects, but we also saw some examples, when it led to unpleasant conflicts...
"Docracy" can work if regulated better. Come to realize I sound like that I want to create a police state, I can assure you that is not the case hahaha. Anyhow, the way I see docracy is throwing stuff on the wall and see what sticks. This is actually a bit which I wouldn't change much other than add some rules and moderation etc. it's all above. Having "green fields" is great, anybody being able to make one is even better.
OK :-)
Problems arise when these are done by stepping over people, and disrespecting each other. Gets even worse when projects try and rush into a popularity contest. I have first hand experience with this, and all the issues of my project could've been solved by being polite and communicating better. That is all it would've take. My point is that we do have some ground rules for this, but many of them are just words, and in my opinion would be a much easier time if we would have these in writing for anyone to check on so new projects have a better starting point, better chances to survive, and potentially become valued parts of the project.
I think the communication is crucial. E.g. some major changes, if discussed prior happening, would probably cause less issues... Of course, crucial will be realization... -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Friday, December 10th, 2021 at 9:08 PM, Vojtěch Zeisek <vojtech.zeisek@opensuse.org> wrote:
Hi, thank You, Adathor :-)
Dne čtvrtek 9. prosince 2021 6:50:16 CET jste napsal(a):
On Thursday, December 9th, 2021 at 11:08 AM, Attila Pinter wrote:
On Friday, November 26th, 2021 at 5:10 PM, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
So what new can You do in Board? What would You like to do,
what is impossible without Board? How can Board move You forward?
"...and You can keep doing so even if You are not elected into the Board."
Correct, and planning to do so exactly that no matter what. Being member
of the Board changes little to nothing inside me, however, my goal is not
to "gain power" and/or "dominate the project" hehe. My goal is to help
stabilizing the project which may need some rule changes here and there.
That can be done a bit easier from within the Board (maybe). Encouraging
change in general must start at the Board level I believe, you know "lead
with example". This project gave me so much, it would be selfish not to
try and fix or strengthen things on a human level.
I like You candidate with a vision. I have feeling that most of people would
agree there is need of some changes. Question is if we find consensus, which
changes are needed. :-)
Hi Vojtěch, This would be a very long and potentially painful conversation to have in the community, but something that IMHO has to be started. Once we identify the key issues we can start discussing ways to fix them and implement required changes.
Adathor, I found Your Motivation section [4] very interesting. The
described issues indeed let a lot of bad blood behind... Despite
You described various issues rather in indications, I wonder what
do You propose as solution? I know it can't be easy, neither short
process, but I suppose You have some steps or at least ideas in
mind how to improve the situation. Could You be more concrete here?
I ask because nice words about respect can stay just... nice words
without any practical impact.
You're right, and this is exactly the reason why I even considered to
throw my hat in the ring, and become a candidate. In most cases these
remain words for XYZ reasons, but frankly the year 2021 in the history of
openSUSE scared the hell out of me, and we need to realize that there is
a problem in the project, in the community. Frankly I've been thinking
quite a lot what to do in terms of steps to protect our contributors, one
of which step is strengthening our moderation team across all platforms
(IM platforms, this mailing list, etc), we need to look into the rules,
change things up a bit that not only demands respect of one another, but
also points out that these platforms are not designed with taking feature
requests - which are easier to describe as demands in most cases - from
users in mind. We need to educate a little better the community -
especially new members - as how this project works, and that there are
real living people putting in their time, and effort for free to keep
everything alive.
Anyhow, before I wonder off any further in my reply I believe that we
first need to identify the issue and the source of the issue at hand
which may not seem as straight forward as it might be, but I believe
that others as well done a pretty good job at doing this so lets say
that we're aware.
Second I would look into the rules for these communication platforms,
and change them up in a way where feature requests or "user demands"
are limited or excluded entirely.
Third Strengthen the moderation teams where needed by actively
"recruiting" volunteers for the task.
Fourth While we're at the moderation team we would also need to set some
ground rules there too in a unified manner. Relying on the Guiding
Principles is not always enough, and being living, feeling human beings
our emotions can get the best of us from time to time. Let's have rules.
Fifth Change up the rules for the Board as well, especially when it comes
to dealing with toxic members of the community. We need to stop "putting
makeup on pigs" really. If we have a problem, and if we can't deal with
that problem in a discrete manner, then use the ban hammer. Do what you
were elected for, and lead the project, and keep it safe.
Sixth (this is a dream kind of thing or a "would be nice to have" An
entrypoint to the developers which would be a team of people who filter
what makes it's way to the developers, contributors, maintainers.
Considering the number of projects we have in openSUSE this seems to be
a crazy amount of work, but till there is a will, there is a way. Would
be really interested to get feedback on this, but IMO a "great filter"
as such could do some wonders. Devs or engineers who work on FOSS
projects are doing so cause it's fun, and we as a whole benefit of
them having fun greatly. Let's not kill the fun ;)
Would like to add here that I would like these changes to be a discussion.
This bit is very important to me, and it seems that I was rambling long
enough I forgot to mention it... These changes can't be done by a single
individual, and it definitely needs to involvement of the community.
I really like how concrete You are in the above reply. It sounds like a good
roadmap, which should be in any case adopted by the Board. Realizing it will
although require broad consensus in the in Project, I can image that points
like stronger moderation or more frequent banning could raise yet another
waves among people... So yes, long and possibly painful discussion would be
needed...
Oh yea, absolutely hahaha. No pain, no gain. I'm convinced that on the long run it would well worth it.
Also, do You think the way how Board works, what is its purpose [3],
etc. should/could/might be worth to discuss and possibly change?
"The board should document decisions and policies." The Board
should indeed do that, and introducing some change for the sake
of the project is probably very much needed.
Do You mean (better) description of decisions in minutes or so, or rather
setting some rules/guidelines/bylaws/... for Board itself, how to handle
common situations, etc, or something else?
I don't think that the Board in openSUSE has anywhere near the same role as the "Board" in another project such as Fedora. Let's not kid ourselves, the Board is pretty powerless. We've been also talking about this a few times in the bar (meet.opensuse.org/bar, everyone is welcome btw ^_^) that the Board shouldn't do conflict resolution, adn should leave that to a team (like moderators). Anyway I would go with full transparency on decisions and the decision making process if any, would probably check if the Board could get more "power" - using this word very loosely -, but this would also depend on what the community expects from the Board to be. I believe that might be a survey coming up on that in the near future if not already. Loads of unknowns in this, and doing a proper research on the matter would probably help identifying certain points we can improve.
Similarly for overall governance of the project, direction
where it is going to, etc. Going back to beginning, the
"docracy" works in many aspects, but we also saw some
examples, when it led to unpleasant conflicts...
"Docracy" can work if regulated better. Come to realize I sound like that
I want to create a police state, I can assure you that is not the case
hahaha. Anyhow, the way I see docracy is throwing stuff on the wall and
see what sticks. This is actually a bit which I wouldn't change much
other than add some rules and moderation etc. it's all above. Having
"green fields" is great, anybody being able to make one is even better.
OK :-)
Problems arise when these are done by stepping over people, and
disrespecting each other. Gets even worse when projects try and rush
into a popularity contest. I have first hand experience with this, and
all the issues of my project could've been solved by being polite and
communicating better. That is all it would've take. My point is that
we do have some ground rules for this, but many of them are just words,
and in my opinion would be a much easier time if we would have these in
writing for anyone to check on so new projects have a better starting
point, better chances to survive, and potentially become valued parts
of the project.
I think the communication is crucial. E.g. some major changes, if discussed
prior happening, would probably cause less issues... Of course, crucial will
be realization...
Felt it on my own skin what happens when you don't do that correctly, so learnt that hard way ahahaha. Transparency, communication, and collaboration are key. -- Br A.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vojtěch Zeisek
Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu
Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux
participants (6)
-
Attila Pinter -
Gerald Pfeifer -
Knurpht-openSUSE -
Luna Jernberg -
Maurizio Galli -
Vojtěch Zeisek