[opensuse-project] vote for suse on the eucalyptus poll
Lets make openSUSE more visible and vote up suse on the eucalyptus poll. http://www.micropoll.com/akira/mpview/564200-152224 The long and short is that eucalyptus is a private internal ec2 cloud. Thanks, Stephen PS. Sorry for the cross post. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Stephen Shaw <sshaw@decriptor.com> wrote:
Lets make openSUSE more visible and vote up suse on the eucalyptus poll. http://www.micropoll.com/akira/mpview/564200-152224
Interesting - actually I started laughing ;) I'm not sure that inflating this poll will be helpful to community credibility. For several reasons. 1) The AWS developer forums show (judging by some thread view counts) there _may_ have been some reasonable interest in running openSUSE on EC2, or 'in-the-cloud'. However, the common experience seems to be a dead-end. I think that huge numbers in the above poll will be 'seen through'; see the 'other poll' below. More helpful would be to have some of the issues I mention below resolved, i.e get openSUSE running on the 'real' EC2 first.
The long and short is that eucalyptus is a private internal ec2 cloud.
2) I think people would be 'intrigued' if they saw openSUSE ranked highly by 'current and potential Eucalyptus users' - I assume most real potential Eucalyptus user is a current EC2 user.... reason: According to the elasticFox listing here are some real world counts (the other poll) of public images the 'community' have made- 'search term' (count): ubuntu (266) fedora (48) suse (2) (1 is 10.2 the has an ambiguous name) and more vendor specific: redhat (12) canonical (4) novell (0) Some relevant issues: 1) Have openSUSE public kernel and ramdisk images be available on EC2. At the moment the only ones are named 'sles-beta-ibm'... do they go private after the beta? None of these kernel images are those mentioned in the KIWI docs. None of the kernel images mentioned in the KIWI docs are available on EC2, nor have they ever been from my periodic checking and from the AWS forum posts. 2) Have one basic 32bit and 64 bit openSUSE AMI available, from this point the 'community' can build additional public images using KIWI, etc. without upload (bandwidth), storage, etc. issues. 3) Once the above two components are in place one could then contemplate some community efforts that would be needed to use openSUSE in the cloud, e.g. openSUSE is currently absent from Chef (a configuration sys-admin framework), it absent for the obvious reason ;) I'd like to have used openSUSE, and KIWI seems to be a very valuable addition, but so far the whole exercise has been as fruitful as banging ones head on concrete. So, without being to harsh, I think you may be placing the cart before the horse - of course it could turn out that openSUSE is widely run on private-EC2's but not the actual EC2. Mark
Thanks, Stephen
PS. Sorry for the cross post. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
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oops... On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Mark V <mvyver@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Stephen Shaw <sshaw@decriptor.com> wrote:
Lets make openSUSE more visible and vote up suse on the eucalyptus poll. http://www.micropoll.com/akira/mpview/564200-152224
Interesting - actually I started laughing ;)
I'm not sure that inflating this poll will be helpful to community credibility. For several reasons.
1) The AWS developer forums show (judging by some thread view counts) there _may_ have been some reasonable interest in running openSUSE on EC2, or 'in-the-cloud'. However, the common experience seems to be a dead-end. I think that huge numbers in the above poll will be 'seen through'; see the 'other poll' below. More helpful would be to have some of the issues I mention below resolved, i.e get openSUSE running on the 'real' EC2 first.
The long and short is that eucalyptus is a private internal ec2 cloud.
2) I think people would be 'intrigued' if they saw openSUSE ranked highly by 'current and potential Eucalyptus users' - I assume most real potential Eucalyptus user is a current EC2 user.... reason: According to the elasticFox listing here are some real world counts (the other poll) of public images the 'community' have made- 'search term' (count): ubuntu (266)
centos (57)
fedora (48) suse (2) (1 is 10.2 the has an ambiguous name)
and more vendor specific: redhat (12) canonical (4) novell (0)
Some relevant issues: 1) Have openSUSE public kernel and ramdisk images be available on EC2. At the moment the only ones are named 'sles-beta-ibm'... do they go private after the beta? None of these kernel images are those mentioned in the KIWI docs. None of the kernel images mentioned in the KIWI docs are available on EC2, nor have they ever been from my periodic checking and from the AWS forum posts.
2) Have one basic 32bit and 64 bit openSUSE AMI available, from this point the 'community' can build additional public images using KIWI, etc. without upload (bandwidth), storage, etc. issues.
3) Once the above two components are in place one could then contemplate some community efforts that would be needed to use openSUSE in the cloud, e.g. openSUSE is currently absent from Chef (a configuration sys-admin framework), it absent for the obvious reason ;)
I'd like to have used openSUSE, and KIWI seems to be a very valuable addition, but so far the whole exercise has been as fruitful as banging ones head on concrete.
So, without being to harsh, I think you may be placing the cart before the horse - of course it could turn out that openSUSE is widely run on private-EC2's but not the actual EC2.
Mark
Thanks, Stephen
PS. Sorry for the cross post. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
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On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Mark V <mvyver@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Stephen Shaw <sshaw@decriptor.com> wrote:
Lets make openSUSE more visible and vote up suse on the eucalyptus poll. http://www.micropoll.com/akira/mpview/564200-152224
Interesting - actually I started laughing ;)
I'm not sure that inflating this poll will be helpful to community credibility. For several reasons.
1) The AWS developer forums show (judging by some thread view counts) there _may_ have been some reasonable interest in running openSUSE on EC2, or 'in-the-cloud'. However, the common experience seems to be a dead-end. I think that huge numbers in the above poll will be 'seen through'; see the 'other poll' below. More helpful would be to have some of the issues I mention below resolved, i.e get openSUSE running on the 'real' EC2 first.
The long and short is that eucalyptus is a private internal ec2 cloud.
2) I think people would be 'intrigued' if they saw openSUSE ranked highly by 'current and potential Eucalyptus users' - I assume most real potential Eucalyptus user is a current EC2 user.... reason: According to the elasticFox listing here are some real world counts (the other poll) of public images the 'community' have made- 'search term' (count): ubuntu (266) fedora (48) suse (2) (1 is 10.2 the has an ambiguous name)
and more vendor specific: redhat (12) canonical (4) novell (0)
Some relevant issues: 1) Have openSUSE public kernel and ramdisk images be available on EC2. At the moment the only ones are named 'sles-beta-ibm'... do they go private after the beta? None of these kernel images are those mentioned in the KIWI docs. None of the kernel images mentioned in the KIWI docs are available on EC2, nor have they ever been from my periodic checking and from the AWS forum posts.
2) Have one basic 32bit and 64 bit openSUSE AMI available, from this point the 'community' can build additional public images using KIWI, etc. without upload (bandwidth), storage, etc. issues.
3) Once the above two components are in place one could then contemplate some community efforts that would be needed to use openSUSE in the cloud, e.g. openSUSE is currently absent from Chef (a configuration sys-admin framework), it absent for the obvious reason ;)
I'd like to have used openSUSE, and KIWI seems to be a very valuable addition, but so far the whole exercise has been as fruitful as banging ones head on concrete.
So, without being to harsh, I think you may be placing the cart before the horse - of course it could turn out that openSUSE is widely run on private-EC2's but not the actual EC2.
Mark
One of the real problems with this is that we can't get openSUSE/SLE on amazon ec2, so the numbers aren't going to be fair. You might wonder why the crap Novell hasn't gotten on top of this, they have! :) Unfortunately, from what I understand is that the version of xen we use is too new to work on ec2. So this is of no fault of Novell, but the systems and versions that amazon is using :( Stephen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Stephen Shaw <sshaw@decriptor.com> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Mark V <mvyver@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Stephen Shaw <sshaw@decriptor.com> wrote:
Lets make openSUSE more visible and vote up suse on the eucalyptus poll. http://www.micropoll.com/akira/mpview/564200-152224
Interesting - actually I started laughing ;)
I'm not sure that inflating this poll will be helpful to community credibility. For several reasons.
1) The AWS developer forums show (judging by some thread view counts) there _may_ have been some reasonable interest in running openSUSE on EC2, or 'in-the-cloud'. However, the common experience seems to be a dead-end. I think that huge numbers in the above poll will be 'seen through'; see the 'other poll' below. More helpful would be to have some of the issues I mention below resolved, i.e get openSUSE running on the 'real' EC2 first.
The long and short is that eucalyptus is a private internal ec2 cloud.
2) I think people would be 'intrigued' if they saw openSUSE ranked highly by 'current and potential Eucalyptus users' - I assume most real potential Eucalyptus user is a current EC2 user.... reason: According to the elasticFox listing here are some real world counts (the other poll) of public images the 'community' have made- 'search term' (count): ubuntu (266) fedora (48) suse (2) (1 is 10.2 the has an ambiguous name)
and more vendor specific: redhat (12) canonical (4) novell (0)
Some relevant issues: 1) Have openSUSE public kernel and ramdisk images be available on EC2. At the moment the only ones are named 'sles-beta-ibm'... do they go private after the beta? None of these kernel images are those mentioned in the KIWI docs. None of the kernel images mentioned in the KIWI docs are available on EC2, nor have they ever been from my periodic checking and from the AWS forum posts.
2) Have one basic 32bit and 64 bit openSUSE AMI available, from this point the 'community' can build additional public images using KIWI, etc. without upload (bandwidth), storage, etc. issues.
3) Once the above two components are in place one could then contemplate some community efforts that would be needed to use openSUSE in the cloud, e.g. openSUSE is currently absent from Chef (a configuration sys-admin framework), it absent for the obvious reason ;)
I'd like to have used openSUSE, and KIWI seems to be a very valuable addition, but so far the whole exercise has been as fruitful as banging ones head on concrete.
So, without being to harsh, I think you may be placing the cart before the horse - of course it could turn out that openSUSE is widely run on private-EC2's but not the actual EC2.
Mark
One of the real problems with this is that we can't get openSUSE/SLE on amazon ec2, so the numbers aren't going to be fair. You might wonder why the crap Novell hasn't gotten on top of this, they have! :) Unfortunately, from what I understand is that the version of xen we use is too new to work on ec2. So this is of no fault of Novell, but the systems and versions that amazon is using :(
Thank you, thank you, thank you! At last an answer that makes sense! Every other explanation I've seen made it sound like it was just an admin matter, so so just a matter of time. I was getting suspicious after 6 months though - but I had thought Novell might be cooking up their own cloud offering. This is important information - it seems to me that it is reasonable to assume and expect that openSUSE on EC2 won't be happening anytime soon - I imagine changing Xen versions on the AWS services will be a huge deal. Any Novellian care to comment authoritatively - Are they currently working with Amazon? Have they been told anything about their prospects of getting openSUSE onto EC2? Mark
Stephen
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Il giorno lun, 30/03/2009 alle 16.13 -0600, Stephen Shaw ha scritto:
One of the real problems with this is that we can't get openSUSE/SLE on amazon ec2, so the numbers aren't going to be fair. You might wonder why the crap Novell hasn't gotten on top of this, they have! :) Unfortunately, from what I understand is that the version of xen we use is too new to work on ec2. So this is of no fault of Novell, but the systems and versions that amazon is using :(
From the stats reported by Mark, it seems neither openSUSE nor SLE are
How can SLE 10 Xen be newer than ubuntu's version, given that ubuntu announced their availability on Amazon cloud? Or did they fix if to make it work there? Can't Novell package an older version for this specific target, if there is interest in being there? there, which is quite sad ;( Regards, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mar 31, 2009, at 12:49 AM, Alberto Passalacqua <alberto.passalacqua@tin.it
wrote:
Il giorno lun, 30/03/2009 alle 16.13 -0600, Stephen Shaw ha scritto:
One of the real problems with this is that we can't get openSUSE/SLE on amazon ec2, so the numbers aren't going to be fair. You might wonder why the crap Novell hasn't gotten on top of this, they have! :) Unfortunately, from what I understand is that the version of xen we use is too new to work on ec2. So this is of no fault of Novell, but the systems and versions that amazon is using :(
How can SLE 10 Xen be newer than ubuntu's version, given that ubuntu announced their availability on Amazon cloud? Or did they fix if to make it work there? Can't Novell package an older version for this specific target, if there is interest in being there?
It's just not that simple. It's not just xen. You can't just downgrade it like any other package. It also involves the kernel. Stephen
From the stats reported by Mark, it seems neither openSUSE nor SLE are there, which is quite sad ;(
Regards, A.
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A. Il giorno mar, 31/03/2009 alle 08.10 -0600, Stephen Shaw ha scritto:
It's just not that simple. It's not just xen. You can't just downgrade it like any other package. It also involves the kernel.
Right, but if Novell wants to be there, a solution is found IMHO. Saying it's difficult doesn't mean it's impossible. And btw, how did other distributions with similar kernel versions do? Regards, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
We actually do heavy development on xen as opposed to grabbing what's out there. Also, you are assuming that they aren't working on a solution. Stephen On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 8:43 AM, Alberto Passalacqua <alberto.passalacqua@tin.it> wrote:
A. Il giorno mar, 31/03/2009 alle 08.10 -0600, Stephen Shaw ha scritto:
It's just not that simple. It's not just xen. You can't just downgrade it like any other package. It also involves the kernel.
Right, but if Novell wants to be there, a solution is found IMHO. Saying it's difficult doesn't mean it's impossible. And btw, how did other distributions with similar kernel versions do?
Regards, A.
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Il giorno mar, 31/03/2009 alle 09.04 -0600, Stephen Shaw ha scritto:
We actually do heavy development on xen as opposed to grabbing what's out there. Also, you are assuming that they aren't working on a solution.
You wrote "we cannot have SLE/openSUSE there". Anyway, if "heavy development" means becoming not compatible with others or not standard, it doesn't sound good, and in the end translates in this kind of delays, losing the advantage of an open platform. Regards, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 15:11 +0000, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
Il giorno mar, 31/03/2009 alle 09.04 -0600, Stephen Shaw ha scritto:
We actually do heavy development on xen as opposed to grabbing what's out there. Also, you are assuming that they aren't working on a solution.
You wrote "we cannot have SLE/openSUSE there". Anyway, if "heavy development" means becoming not compatible with others or not standard, it doesn't sound good, and in the end translates in this kind of delays, losing the advantage of an open platform.
Regards, A.
Can you clarify what that means? If Novell/SLE/openSUSE are one of the major contributors of XEN and do a lot of work that eventually makes what others build upon, that's not a good thing? Are you saying that Novell, nor others, should be a major contributor to open source projects? -- Bryen Yunashko openSUSE Board Member openSUSE-GNOME Team Member GNOME-A11y Team Member www.bryen.com (Personal Blog) www.planet-a11y.net (Feed aggregator of the Accessibility Community) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Il giorno mar, 31/03/2009 alle 10.37 -0500, Bryen ha scritto:
Can you clarify what that means? If Novell/SLE/openSUSE are one of the major contributors of XEN and do a lot of work that eventually makes what others build upon, that's not a good thing? Are you saying that Novell, nor others, should be a major contributor to open source projects?
I did not relate the contributions to open source to this issue. Contributing to open source doesn't mean you can't have a working family of products while you are innovating them. Novell is adopting a risking approach: it innovates, does a very limited testing (see SLE reviews for proofs), and pushes bleeding edge technology in all its products. It has been doing this for years now, since the switch to Linux, and it seems they are not learning. Regards, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
What are you doing to help? Other than complaining? There is a difference between constructive criticism and just being annoying. Stephen On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Alberto Passalacqua <alberto.passalacqua@tin.it> wrote:
Il giorno mar, 31/03/2009 alle 10.37 -0500, Bryen ha scritto:
Can you clarify what that means? If Novell/SLE/openSUSE are one of the major contributors of XEN and do a lot of work that eventually makes what others build upon, that's not a good thing? Are you saying that Novell, nor others, should be a major contributor to open source projects?
I did not relate the contributions to open source to this issue. Contributing to open source doesn't mean you can't have a working family of products while you are innovating them. Novell is adopting a risking approach: it innovates, does a very limited testing (see SLE reviews for proofs), and pushes bleeding edge technology in all its products. It has been doing this for years now, since the switch to Linux, and it seems they are not learning.
Regards, A.
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This is going OT, considering my comments are limited to the specific problem. Anyway, you asked and I'll reply. My contributions in the past are out there: I report bugs regularly, I translated two releases and I'm involved on suseitalia. Currently I have two active proposals, one almost completed (Geeko wants you!), which can't be completed because no team sent me a single line containing tasks to add to the web page. What is present on that page is extracted by the previous task page, with one single addition done by the GNOME team. Honestly, I cannot invent the activities to fill the pages. If Novell wants help, they should work with us. It takes one email and ten minutes of time. The other initiative is the creation of the testing team, which is waiting an answer from Novell to know in detail what the existing infrastructure is. So I would not say I only complain, but that I complain a lot, and the reason is simple: I'm interested in having a good openSUSE. If the price to pay is being unpopular because I point the finger where I think there is a problem, well, it's not that bad. To go back to the discussion on contributions, if you expect people to contribute, you need to empower them to do so, at all levels. You need to fix defined goals, and create an environment where these goals can be reached. And you need to be transparent, and stop taking decisions that affects the community behind closed doors. Novell has to fix a direction for the project, and to provide the tools for others to contribute. Once this is done, and only then, Novell will have the right to judge our contributions. You cannot really expect these things to be done automagically by the community itself, with the too abused answer "do it yourself". OpenSUSE community is intrinsically different from other communities: we don't use distributions like Debian for a reason. But this doesn't mean we don't want to contribute, if contributing means investing a reasonable amount of time and effort to help and enjoy the results. If the results do not come, with rushed releases as it happened in the past, and hopefully won't happen in the future thanks to the new release schedules, if the amount of time and effort we invest is wasted in following procedures and using tools not suitable for community use, in waiting for answers that don't come for various reasons, or in trying to build something which is of no interests for others and nobody simply says that in all honesty, well, you won't see many contributions. To conclude, this is constructive criticism. Solutions were proposed for many of the problems we have, some by me, some by others. Some were also discussed in endless threads on the mailing lists, but not much changed, and we are always here, with the _same_ complaints and the same problems. Specifically on the XEN issue, I don't see what kind of constructive criticism you can expect when you say that Novell implemented something "too new" to work on Amazon EC2, when other distributions, with less resources than Novell are actually making it work. My original point is quite simple: why didn't Novell keep working verision of Xen for that application, while developing and implementing the newest one as other did? It doesn't seem such horrible and unconstructive criticism to me, but a simple and rational consideration. Regards, A. Il giorno mar, 31/03/2009 alle 10.28 -0600, Stephen Shaw ha scritto:
What are you doing to help? Other than complaining? There is a difference between constructive criticism and just being annoying.
Stephen
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On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Alberto Passalacqua <alberto.passalacqua@tin.it> wrote:
Il giorno mar, 31/03/2009 alle 09.04 -0600, Stephen Shaw ha scritto:
We actually do heavy development on xen as opposed to grabbing what's out there. Also, you are assuming that they aren't working on a solution.
You wrote "we cannot have SLE/openSUSE there". Anyway, if "heavy development" means becoming not compatible with others or not standard, it doesn't sound good, and in the end translates in this kind of delays, losing the advantage of an open platform.
What on earth made you think that??? Do you have it out for openSUSE/SLE/Novell? You are seriously *only* looking for the bad! Am I to assume that you think Novell doesn't do anything good for anyone? You need to give them a break. They happen to be working on bleeding edge and improving it making it better for all those other distros you are praising for having a good working setup... It's not that hard to have when you are just using other people's work. Stephen
Regards, A.
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Il giorno mar, 31/03/2009 alle 10.02 -0600, Stephen Shaw ha scritto:
What on earth made you think that??? Do you have it out for openSUSE/SLE/Novell? You are seriously *only* looking for the bad! Am I to assume that you think Novell doesn't do anything good for anyone? You need to give them a break.
I'm not looking for "the bad", I'm just commenting on *your* statements, which I assume are right and can be considered as facts. Novell has zero presence on Amazon EC2 according to what you said, and this is because what Novell provides is "too new" to work there, whatever this means.
They happen to be working on bleeding edge and improving it making it better for all those other distros you are praising for having a good working setup... It's not that hard to have when you are just using other people's work.
And why doesn't Novell take advantage of what it did too? Being bleeding edge is OK, at certain levels, for open projects, but not for enterprise products like SLE, which should *target* this kind of applications. I don't have to give them a break, they should take a break from themselves and from the idea that being bleeding edge at all costs is good, trying to make things work. OpenSUSE is paying the price of this attitude, and the same seems to happen to SLE, always according to *your* statements. Regards, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
SLE has probably one of the best xen implementations. They don't just grab bleeding edge and ship. Not sure how its novell's fault that amazon is using a 3 year old kernel/xen. Also, there are versions of suse on ec2, just not the latest. Stephen On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Alberto Passalacqua <alberto.passalacqua@tin.it> wrote:
Il giorno mar, 31/03/2009 alle 10.02 -0600, Stephen Shaw ha scritto:
What on earth made you think that??? Do you have it out for openSUSE/SLE/Novell? You are seriously *only* looking for the bad! Am I to assume that you think Novell doesn't do anything good for anyone? You need to give them a break.
I'm not looking for "the bad", I'm just commenting on *your* statements, which I assume are right and can be considered as facts. Novell has zero presence on Amazon EC2 according to what you said, and this is because what Novell provides is "too new" to work there, whatever this means.
They happen to be working on bleeding edge and improving it making it better for all those other distros you are praising for having a good working setup... It's not that hard to have when you are just using other people's work.
And why doesn't Novell take advantage of what it did too? Being bleeding edge is OK, at certain levels, for open projects, but not for enterprise products like SLE, which should *target* this kind of applications.
I don't have to give them a break, they should take a break from themselves and from the idea that being bleeding edge at all costs is good, trying to make things work. OpenSUSE is paying the price of this attitude, and the same seems to happen to SLE, always according to *your* statements.
Regards, A.
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participants (4)
-
Alberto Passalacqua -
Bryen -
Mark V -
Stephen Shaw