[opensuse-project] Why Simultaneous Net & Box Set Release?
So we have problems scheduling releases, due to difficulty of shipping physical disks. Bugs found in -RC1, don't get fixed for GM, despite tested fixes being available more than a week before release. There's some feeling been shown by Novell staff, that too few ppl are testing Beta's and RC's. Some reviewers, complain about quality of release, and user 'acceptance testing'. Certainly in my experience, 10.3 took a month to get solid. This time, I've found a regression in 11.1 on a different, for a machine that I got a kernel patch to fix in -RC1. If the media is not going to become a Coaster, if it's going to be really useful, and be something that installs really widely on supported hardware without opening the case, or entering geeky boot parameters. Why doesn't openSUSE ship, a net .0 (for uh oh) release, for the early adopters on the net, and then go to GM with a X.Y.1 release, once the stuff has stabilised? May be that'd jeopardise box set sales? But if that's tried for 11.2, then : 11.2.0 - Core System, KDE 4.3, GNOME 2.24 (Net Only) 11.2.1 - Core + fixes, KDE 4.3 + fixes, GNOME 2.28 (Final, Physical Media, plus updates DVD ISO's and Live CD's) There's a huge amount of time getting wasted on intall over the product life cycle, and you may well have to update Net Install and Live CD iso's anyway for 11.1 when huge swathes of common hardeware that ppl try it on don't work acceptably. When installing is a pain, it makes us loathe to mess with it, and less likely to help when something labelled 'alpha' comes along a few months later, because the expectation is for it to be problematic, when the main release was. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
There's some feeling been shown by Novell staff, that too few ppl are testing Beta's and RC's.
Well, in my case I won't test on my hardware (aka bare metal install) because I need a functioning system, and I can't take my computer down for daily restarts to test the each build of the next release (it's a fileserver, webserver etc.). As a compromise I install as many builds as I can into a VM (mainly VirtualBox) and tinker there. Almost always by the time I run into a bug it's already been reported. The disadvantage of doing all my testing in a VM is that a lot of the quirks of installing on the actual hardware will never show up. I think as long as there are clearly defined releases that run in their own Ivory Tower of application versions, we will be facing this problem. People don't always have a spare computer with common/duplicate hardware configs just laying around to use as a testbed. They often have one machine and can't really afford the downtime if something goes wrong. I don't know the solution... continuous updating the head as Gentoo does? That approach has some major problems too. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2008/12/20 Clayton <smaug42@gmail.com>:
There's some feeling been shown by Novell staff, that too few ppl are testing Beta's and RC's.
Well, in my case I won't test on my hardware (aka bare metal install) because I need a functioning system, and I can't take my computer down for daily restarts to test the each build of the next release (it's a fileserver, webserver etc.). As a compromise I install as many builds as I can into a VM (mainly VirtualBox) and tinker there. Almost always by the time I run into a bug it's already been reported.
The disadvantage of doing all my testing in a VM is that a lot of the quirks of installing on the actual hardware will never show up.
My presumption was, that the applications have been reasonably tested at some point, by builds on a stable system. So with the release, I'm trying to tax the installer, and see how the kernel does on older hardware, you know those boxes ppl have that keep going and going, but aren't what developers are going to have on their desk or lap tops. Yes, it's why I'm going to be planning my boxes with spare partitions (for /boot & /), with most data held in LVM, that doesn't need any of it's filesystems mounted (intially by installer anyway). I've tried to test on quirky hardware, but issues I worked round with 10.3 (mostly libata/pata_* stuff), still need to be worked round. Those are mostly things that have affected other installations, when I search Bugzilla, I didn't have to open a new bug, but do a "me to" and run tests. It might be more effective to test vanilla kernel, and particularly when they're in -rc mode, complain if there's regressions.
I don't know the solution... continuous updating the head as Gentoo does? That approach has some major problems too.
Debian are probably the best example. The key commitment they make is that you can upgrade, from an up to date "stable" release, to the next via the distupgrade. Ubuntu claim that, but I've seen comment in the forum that there's issues, at least with Kubuntu, which may be expected given it's secondary status to GNOME. What problems do you see in the rolling update approach? With online update and OBS we seem to have progressed considerably in that direction. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Debian are probably the best example. The key commitment they make is that you can upgrade, from an up to date "stable" release, to the next via the distupgrade. Ubuntu claim that, but I've seen comment in the forum that there's issues, at least with Kubuntu, which may be expected given it's secondary status to GNOME.
What problems do you see in the rolling update approach? With online update and OBS we seem to have progressed considerably in that direction.
From a testing standpoint I would guess that it's hard to know what each "tester" has on his or her system with the rolling update approach. How does one misbehaving app affect another... for example if xorg is old will that break compiz? In an Ivory Tower development style as openSUSE is, you can control what xorg is used... so if it breaks compiz, you know where to look to fix things... in a rolling update, can you guarantee that everyone will be on the same level? Is that important? I don't know. Never worked with it.
From an end user point of view, I like the rolling update concept. I never have to reinstall... that's a good thing to me.
C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Clayton a écrit :
I don't know the solution...
I do install always on an other partition (I keep two for the job). I must say I use the 11.1 right from the install and it's the first time I can switch immediately :-) so the 11.1 is very good (I couldn't test betas) however, Kde4 is still a very disturbing thing, crashes three times in 24h, seems as ugly as Vista!!! I don't know if I will be able to cope with it (I can still change to kde 3.5, but it's now a hidden option at install) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
I do install always on an other partition (I keep two for the job).
Right.. i could (and have in the past) do the same thing, but you always have to power down and then boot that partition... meanwhile my fileserver/webserver and work computer is offline. I don't want to do that... this the VirtualBox tinkering.
however, Kde4 is still a very disturbing thing, crashes three times in 24h,
Are you using an old KDE4 config? A clean start with the config is almost mandatory. Do that and it's fine. As for look... well you can change it as much as you want.. it's still the endlessly configurable KDE :-) Mine looks a lot like my old setup... I'm using the Oxygen Desktop Theme which has almost the same look as my previous KDE3.5 theme that I used. I set Desktop Activity Type to Folder View and my desktop behaves like it used to in KDE3.5. I'm a happy camper :-) (oh, and also using the 180.16 nVidia drivers which make a HUGE difference). C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Clayton a écrit :
I do install always on an other partition (I keep two for the job).
Right.. i could (and have in the past) do the same thing, but you always have to power down and then boot that partition... meanwhile my fileserver/webserver and work computer is offline. I don't want to do that... this the VirtualBox tinkering.
I have all the data out of /home (reserved partition), it's enough to setup links. I can use firefox.thunderbird in any of the two (11.0 & 11.1) at the same time, still having all the ~/. files separate
however, Kde4 is still a very disturbing thing, crashes three times in 24h,
Are you using an old KDE4 config?
no A clean start with the config is
almost mandatory. Do that and it's fine. As for look... well you can change it as much as you want.. it's still the endlessly configurable KDE :-) Mine looks a lot like my old setup...
can you have the 8 last used application on top of the menu? use the desktop... as desktop and not as folder? have the meteo applet? I'm using the Oxygen
Desktop Theme which has almost the same look as my previous KDE3.5 theme that I used. I set Desktop Activity Type to Folder View
good, I missed this one , thanks :-) and my
desktop behaves like it used to in KDE3.5. I'm a happy camper :-) (oh, and also using the 180.16 nVidia drivers which make a HUGE difference).
not yet installed the Nvidia drivers :-( thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 20 December 2008 16:55:49 Rob OpenSuSE wrote:
So we have problems scheduling releases, due to difficulty of shipping physical disks.
No. I think you are confusing and mixing different things now. The discussion about development schedule has nothing to with whether a boxed release will exist or when it ships. Bye, Steve -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2008/12/22 Stephan Binner <stbinner@suse.de>:
On Saturday 20 December 2008 16:55:49 Rob OpenSuSE wrote:
So we have problems scheduling releases, due to difficulty of shipping physical disks.
No. I think you are confusing and mixing different things now. The discussion about development schedule has nothing to with whether a boxed release will exist or when it ships.
Well I've seen discussion in that thread, about certain release dates being bad (between Thanksgiving and Christmas), so it would appear that shipping practicality, does impact the release date. The point was made by someone else, with an influential position. I agree that development schedule, and release date is something different, though there is likely some quality issues to consider, in managing development plans and target releases. But I didn't see much discussion of steps to improve quality of the release. In 6 weeks time, 11.1 can be expected to run better on a whole slew of hardware, won't it? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Stephan Binner a écrit :
On Saturday 20 December 2008 16:55:49 Rob OpenSuSE wrote:
So we have problems scheduling releases, due to difficulty of shipping physical disks.
No. I think you are confusing and mixing different things now. The discussion about development schedule has nothing to with whether a boxed release will exist or when it ships.
wrong, the GM release is delayed by the time necessary to burn dvd's. If Novell was not providing at all dvd's, we could release days earlier. May be it coul be a solution: release dvd images, jacquet covers as picts and let third parts company sell dvd. I don't think openSUSE DVDs gives money to novell... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2008/12/23 jdd <jdd@dodin.org>:
Stephan Binner a écrit :
On Saturday 20 December 2008 16:55:49 Rob OpenSuSE wrote:
So we have problems scheduling releases, due to difficulty of shipping physical disks.
No. I think you are confusing and mixing different things now. The discussion about development schedule has nothing to with whether a boxed release will exist or when it ships.
wrong, the GM release is delayed by the time necessary to burn dvd's.
If Novell was not providing at all dvd's, we could release days earlier.
The problem is not really when the net release is shipped, it's that bug fixes are not getting into the install system kernel, because things are frozen. That leads to boxes being unable to boot the Release and/or the install failing for weird and wonderful reasons. If a user finds 'OS doesn't work & Ubuntu just worked' they are lost to us. So effectively the last week of -RC testing is pointless from hardware and install software point of view, as once the release is missed, it's not only getting a fix accepted for update, but getting updates of ISO files made in order to solve for the end user. Now if I bought a box set, put the DVD in, and found it just didn't boot, when other distros do, I would be pretty upset and disappointed. The general feeling expressed by end users in forum and mail list, is for higher quality, not faster releases. Box sets will be more likely to be deployed where a net connection is slow, poor, or unavailable. So surely it makes sense to ship a higher quality product in the box set, than what can be served up for download on the net, as those first ISO's are updateable. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 23 December 2008 09:41:35 jdd wrote:
wrong, the GM release is delayed by the time necessary to burn dvd's.
That's not the only reason: the servers and updates have to be set up, delta isos created, mirrors pre-filled, ...
If Novell was not providing at all dvd's, we could release days earlier.
But not the dimension of a week you likely have in mind now.
May be it coul be a solution: release dvd images, jacquet covers as picts and let third parts company sell dvd. I don't think openSUSE
Novell is actually giving gold master images to third parties before public release (see eg German blog [1]), but they can also not produce and ship faster than Novell does currently. :-) Bye, Steve [1] http://www.linux-community.de/Internal/User-Blogs/Aus-dem-Leben-eines-Hardwa... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Stephan Binner a écrit :
Novell is actually giving gold master images to third parties before public release (see eg German blog [1]), but they can also not produce and ship faster than Novell does currently. :-)
yes, but nobody can blame Novell for that :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
participants (4)
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Clayton -
jdd -
Rob OpenSuSE -
Stephan Binner