[opensuse-project] community transition
'we' (as in 'we' of the openSUSE Community) don't really know what the future holds.. but, it _seems_ to me that there has been a sharp drop off of Novell employees contributing/posting to the mail lists/forums since the NYPost scoop.. i wonder what happens if (as has happened too often in recent weeks) the forum (or mail lists/irc/wiki/etc) machines/nets need TLC to return to work... do 'we' have non-Novell community hands with access to the levers and gears controlling our ability to coordinate, communicate, and etc? just thinking out loud: do 'we' need to make some backup plans _before_ the communications networks go down and _then_ learn our corporate sponsor has lost interest in 'we' and has decided to save those man hours for more profitable endeavors ?? i know it is unpopular with some, but maybe 'we' could cobble together some backup comm via everyone's friend, whose name begins with a big blue G ?? just sayin': its easier to plan a backup while the lights are still on. DenverD -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hey, On 16.09.2010 10:35, DenverD wrote:
but, it _seems_ to me that there has been a sharp drop off of Novell employees contributing/posting to the mail lists/forums since the NYPost scoop..
LOL, oh please...
i wonder what happens if (as has happened too often in recent weeks) the forum (or mail lists/irc/wiki/etc) machines/nets need TLC to return to work...
Then the people who care for that will take care of that. Like always.
just thinking out loud: do 'we' need to make some backup plans _before_ the communications networks go down and _then_ learn our corporate sponsor has lost interest in 'we' and has decided to save those man hours for more profitable endeavors ??
Would you stop spreading this FUD? Do you really think that we are that spineless? A lot of your contributions make me wonder if you would not be better of in some other project where you feel comfortable to take off your tinfoil hat. Have you considered that? :) I give you my word that openSUSE will not drop off the face of the earth. No matter what the future brings. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 9/16/2010 at 02:21 PM, Henne Vogelsang <hvogel@opensuse.org> wrote: Hey,
On 16.09.2010 10:35, DenverD wrote:
but, it _seems_ to me that there has been a sharp drop off of Novell employees contributing/posting to the mail lists/forums since the NYPost scoop..
LOL, oh please...
i wonder what happens if (as has happened too often in recent weeks) the forum (or mail lists/irc/wiki/etc) machines/nets need TLC to return to work...
Then the people who care for that will take care of that. Like always.
just thinking out loud: do 'we' need to make some backup plans _before_ the communications networks go down and _then_ learn our corporate sponsor has lost interest in 'we' and has decided to save those man hours for more profitable endeavors ??
Would you stop spreading this FUD? Do you really think that we are that spineless? A lot of your contributions make me wonder if you would not be better of in some other project where you feel comfortable to take off your tinfoil hat. Have you considered that? :)
I give you my word that openSUSE will not drop off the face of the earth. No matter what the future brings.
Also note, Henne's signature does not apply here. ;-) Just kidding. Thanks Nikanth
Henne
-- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
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Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 16.09.2010 10:35, DenverD wrote:
but, it _seems_ to me that there has been a sharp drop off of Novell employees contributing/posting to the mail lists/forums since the NYPost scoop..
LOL, oh please...
i wonder what happens if (as has happened too often in recent weeks) the forum (or mail lists/irc/wiki/etc) machines/nets need TLC to return to work...
Then the people who care for that will take care of that. Like always.
just thinking out loud: do 'we' need to make some backup plans _before_ the communications networks go down and _then_ learn our corporate sponsor has lost interest in 'we' and has decided to save those man hours for more profitable endeavors ??
Would you stop spreading this FUD? Do you really think that we are that spineless? A lot of your contributions make me wonder if you would not be better of in some other project where you feel comfortable to take off your tinfoil hat. Have you considered that? :)
I give you my word that openSUSE will not drop off the face of the earth. No matter what the future brings.
believe it or not, i'm not worried about anything dropping off the face of the earth so much as how we will reconstitute capability *if* the mail lists/wiki/fora and etc were to suddenly be unsupported (with, electricity...say).. if you are sure everything is gonna be smooth, then great.. its just in my former lives it was always best to plan for the worst, and hope for the best.. my experience is if you plan for the best, it is difficult to re-plan in the dark. ymmv, tinfoil or not. DenverD -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2010-09-16 at 12:07 +0200, DenverD wrote:
Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 16.09.2010 10:35, DenverD wrote:
but, it _seems_ to me that there has been a sharp drop off of Novell employees contributing/posting to the mail lists/forums since the NYPost scoop..
LOL, oh please...
I would hardly consider the time period between the Post's scoop and now as indicative of a dropoff by anyone, Novell employee or anyone. That's just too short of a period to reflect anything meaningful. And even if an agreement to sell is indeed going to happen 4 weeks from now, there is still a long period ahead of us for regulatory review of the buyout. We won't see any major changes in the very near future, for sure.
i wonder what happens if (as has happened too often in recent weeks) the forum (or mail lists/irc/wiki/etc) machines/nets need TLC to return to work...
Then the people who care for that will take care of that. Like always.
I agree with Henne's statement here. People invested personally in the Project are invested personally because they care. And if they care more or less after such a sale occurs, we'll deal with it at that time. No use getting paranoid and starting a witch hunt to figure out who is going to stay and who is going to leave before it happens.
just thinking out loud: do 'we' need to make some backup plans _before_ the communications networks go down and _then_ learn our corporate sponsor has lost interest in 'we' and has decided to save those man hours for more profitable endeavors ??
Would you stop spreading this FUD? Do you really think that we are that spineless? A lot of your contributions make me wonder if you would not be better of in some other project where you feel comfortable to take off your tinfoil hat. Have you considered that? :)
I give you my word that openSUSE will not drop off the face of the earth. No matter what the future brings.
believe it or not, i'm not worried about anything dropping off the face of the earth so much as how we will reconstitute capability *if* the mail lists/wiki/fora and etc were to suddenly be unsupported (with, electricity...say)..
if you are sure everything is gonna be smooth, then great..
its just in my former lives it was always best to plan for the worst, and hope for the best..
my experience is if you plan for the best, it is difficult to re-plan in the dark.
ymmv, tinfoil or not.
DenverD
I think Denver asks a fair question, though perhaps could have been worded more clearly. It is fair to ask ourselves as a community... "What could this mean for us and how does this impact us?" However, its a hard question to answer because we truly don't know the details. As far as I can tell, even inside SUSE, most people at Novell don't know anything more than what the rest of us know from that NY Post scoop. We have no idea who this buyer is and how this buyer will recognize openSUSE as a valuable commodity that benefits the SLE enterprise products. Regardless of a buyout or not, it is always good for the Community to look at itself and ask itself if it is on good solid sure ground. Such a question about the future of the Project and where we are should be asked regardless of Novell's activities and that's the attitude we need to focus on. Truth be told, the stronger we make ourselves as an important "upstream" project of the SLE family, the more Novell, or its successor, or anyone, will take notice of us and recognize that we're here to stay and we do something very important here. So, keep your heads focused on the prize -- openSUSE Project, and don't let the activities of our partners deter from what we are doing. Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 13:20, Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:
I would hardly consider the time period between the Post's scoop and now as indicative of a dropoff by anyone, Novell employee or anyone. That's just too short of a period to reflect anything meaningful.
And even if an agreement to sell is indeed going to happen 4 weeks from now, there is still a long period ahead of us for regulatory review of the buyout. We won't see any major changes in the very near future, for sure.
On top of all this, Novell employees are not going to be allowed to comment on any rumors or provide any additional information - this is _standard_operating_procedure_ during proposed buyouts. Anything an employee may say can impact the regulatory review and even the sale itself. I've just been through the same myself with Sun->Oracle. It's a tough spot to be in... especially if you "know something" or know the specific answer to something someone is asking about. So... we also need to be fair to the Novell employees here and not pester them for details. They won't be able to say anything one way or the other, so everyone... lets not put them in the proverbial rock and hard place. Hang in there and wait on the official announcements when and if they come. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 09/16/2010 06:20 AM, Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:
Truth be told, the stronger we make ourselves as an important "upstream" project of the SLE family, the more Novell, or its successor, or anyone, will take notice of us and recognize that we're here to stay and we do something very important here.
So, keep your heads focused on the prize -- openSUSE Project, and don't let the activities of our partners deter from what we are doing.
Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member
While I don't necessarily agree or disagree with DenverD, his post reflects a clear reality: the OpenSUSE "community" could effectively disappear in the course of a day. It just happened with Open Solaris. Read some of the blogs by former Open Solaris contributors! I think they provide some valuable lessons-learned. I suspect that whether or not OpenSUSE is or is not important to SLE (I've heard both sides of the argument here) is of no relevance. It's unlikely that the folk making the decisions will know anything about the project other than projected cost. The only way OpenSUSE can ever be safe from the whims of the accountants and financiers is to become independent of any single large corporate sponser. I don't see it happening ... so uncertainty is the prevalent reality .... oxala -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 15:37, Charles Wight wrote:
The only way OpenSUSE can ever be safe from the whims of the accountants and financiers is to become independent of any single large corporate sponser. I don't see it happening ... so uncertainty is the prevalent reality ....
What large open source project is actually independent of a large (or multiple) corporate sponsor? OpenOffice.org has Oracle, Ubuntu has Canonical, openSUSE has Novell and so on. There are a few single-application projects that may bumble along on their own, but it's a rare animal the size and scope of openSUSE that is actually independent. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
2010/9/16 C <smaug42@gmail.com>:
What large open source project is actually independent of a large (or multiple) corporate sponsor? OpenOffice.org has Oracle, Ubuntu has
*BSD. Best Martin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 09/16/2010 08:47 AM, C wrote:
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 15:37, Charles Wight wrote:
The only way OpenSUSE can ever be safe from the whims of the accountants and financiers is to become independent of any single large corporate sponser. I don't see it happening ... so uncertainty is the prevalent reality .... What large open source project is actually independent of a large (or multiple) corporate sponsor? OpenOffice.org has Oracle, Ubuntu has Canonical, openSUSE has Novell and so on. There are a few single-application projects that may bumble along on their own, but it's a rare animal the size and scope of openSUSE that is actually independent.
C.
http://www.debian.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 09/16/2010 08:47 AM, C wrote:
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 15:37, Charles Wight wrote:
The only way OpenSUSE can ever be safe from the whims of the accountants and financiers is to become independent of any single large corporate sponser. I don't see it happening ... so uncertainty is the prevalent reality .... What large open source project is actually independent of a large (or multiple) corporate sponsor? OpenOffice.org has Oracle, Ubuntu has Canonical, openSUSE has Novell and so on. There are a few single-application projects that may bumble along on their own, but it's a rare animal the size and scope of openSUSE that is actually independent.
C.
BTW, there is a BIG difference between accepting corporate donations/contributions and being dependent upon a single sponsor! Mozilla is NOT a single product project. They are a software development powerhouse! Products like firefox and thunderbird are simply their most visible works. For example, there are probably few websites of any significance, corporate or otherwise, that don't use Mozilla's xerces and xalan libraries. oxala -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Charles Wight wrote:
On 09/16/2010 08:47 AM, C wrote:
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 15:37, Charles Wight wrote:
The only way OpenSUSE can ever be safe from the whims of the accountants and financiers is to become independent of any single large corporate sponser. I don't see it happening ... so uncertainty is the prevalent reality .... What large open source project is actually independent of a large (or multiple) corporate sponsor? OpenOffice.org has Oracle, Ubuntu has Canonical, openSUSE has Novell and so on. There are a few single-application projects that may bumble along on their own, but it's a rare animal the size and scope of openSUSE that is actually independent.
C.
BTW, there is a BIG difference between accepting corporate donations/contributions and being dependent upon a single sponsor! [snip]
and, it is this dependence that got me to thinking about the situation the Community _might_ be in if suddenly our sponsor (today, or next month) decided to not pay _our_ electricity/communications costs.. sure, i have no doubt that openSUSE can persist.. but, wonder if maybe we need to increase the speed at which we work toward an openSUSE Foundation *and* build more independence....sooner, rather than later (notwithstanding Henne Vogelsang "word" that all openSUSE folks who are not willing to lay back/relax & wait/see would be better off in some other project....or should tweak their tinfoil hat!) DenverD -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 09/16/2010 09:24 AM, DenverD wrote:
Charles Wight wrote:
On 09/16/2010 08:47 AM, C wrote:
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 15:37, Charles Wight wrote:
The only way OpenSUSE can ever be safe from the whims of the accountants and financiers is to become independent of any single large corporate sponser. I don't see it happening ... so uncertainty is the prevalent reality .... What large open source project is actually independent of a large (or multiple) corporate sponsor? OpenOffice.org has Oracle, Ubuntu has Canonical, openSUSE has Novell and so on. There are a few single-application projects that may bumble along on their own, but it's a rare animal the size and scope of openSUSE that is actually independent.
C. BTW, there is a BIG difference between accepting corporate donations/contributions and being dependent upon a single sponsor! [snip]
and, it is this dependence that got me to thinking about the situation the Community _might_ be in if suddenly our sponsor (today, or next month) decided to not pay _our_ electricity/communications costs..
sure, i have no doubt that openSUSE can persist..
but, wonder if maybe we need to increase the speed at which we work toward an openSUSE Foundation *and* build more independence....sooner, rather than later (notwithstanding Henne Vogelsang "word" that all openSUSE folks who are not willing to lay back/relax& wait/see would be better off in some other project....or should tweak their tinfoil hat!)
DenverD
Hello DenverD, NOW is usually the best time to do anything of genuine importance. You speak of "we" in "need to increase the speed at which we work toward an openSUSE Foundation *and* build more independence". I certainly agree, but I honestly don't know who the relevant "we" actually are and what, if any, resources are available. I'm willing to help anyway I can ... but that assumes there is something I can do. I'm not Mark Shuttleworth; all I have to contribute is a little time and expertise! That said, you know where to find me ... I'll be wearing the propeller cap. charles -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hey, On 16.09.2010 16:51, Charles Wight wrote:
NOW is usually the best time to do anything of genuine importance. You speak of "we" in "need to increase the speed at which we work toward an openSUSE Foundation *and* build more independence". I certainly agree, but I honestly don't know who the relevant "we" actually are and what, if any, resources are available.
How about you first start to learn about the openSUSE project. Who does what, how they work together and when. The real basic simple stuff. We have a nice wiki that will explain most of this to you, i suggest you start reading at http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Project If you find misleading information or if you have problems understanding something you can ask here or on our IRC channel anytime and everybody that DOES do work here will happily explain everything to you.
I'm willing to help anyway I can ... but that assumes there is something I can do. I'm not Mark Shuttleworth; all I have to contribute is a little time and expertise!
No problem. Once you have some basic understanding of how our community works you can come back and we find something to do for you. That's easy! :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 17:07:56 +0200, Henne Vogelsang <hvogel@opensuse.org> wrote:
Once you have some basic understanding of how our community works you can come back and we find something to do for you.
If I want to contribute, I'll work on what *I* want to work on. Why should I care what you think? -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 17 September 2010 19:30:11 John Kelly wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 17:07:56 +0200, Henne Vogelsang <hvogel@opensuse.org> wrote:
Once you have some basic understanding of how our community works you can come back and we find something to do for you.
If I want to contribute, I'll work on what *I* want to work on.
Why should I care what you think?
Oh, but that's also just fine... It all helps. Charles offered to help - Henne offered to guide him. Henne didn't say he'd tell YOU what to do!
but, wonder if maybe we need to increase the speed at which we work toward an openSUSE Foundation *and* build more independence....
to encrease the speed, we have to work, not speak about obvious questions. Be practical, find a lawyer... people presently involved work full free time and can't do more (or don't have the knowledge)... jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hey, On 16.09.2010 16:24, DenverD wrote:
but, wonder if maybe we need to increase the speed at which we work toward an openSUSE Foundation *and* build more independence....sooner, rather than later
You are very welcome to help here. I really don't know what your expertise is but I'm sure if you show up in the next board meeting (next Wednesday, 6PM UTC #opensuse-project on freenode.net) we can find something you can do for us. I'm really looking forward to this!
(notwithstanding Henne Vogelsang "word" that all openSUSE folks who are not willing to lay back/relax & wait/see would be better off in some other project....or should tweak their tinfoil hat!)
If you don't talk to much and do something you're my kind of guy. Up until now i have seen nothing from you except talk and complaints. Here's your chance to change that. It'll probably the last one Denver. Make something out of it. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 09:01, Henne Vogelsang <hvogel@opensuse.org> wrote:
Hey,
On 16.09.2010 16:24, DenverD wrote:
but, wonder if maybe we need to increase the speed at which we work toward an openSUSE Foundation *and* build more independence....sooner, <BIG snip>
I don't very often post, but felt so inclined this time. Disclaimer, I am a Novell employee. The idea/thought that we all went silent is kind of annoying... you'd rather us be constantly active on the list instead of fixing bugs... I didn't really find time to post on MLs or forum or wiki while digging through gtk+ code to fix a bug. You guys pick bugs or emailing... Also, about the single sponsor thing... How often did you guys buy the box set? Have you donated hardware? Have you maybe paid someone's travel? Have you paid for yourself to go to a conference to promote openSUSE? Or is this just about getting more for nothing? Has Novell been that horrible of a steward over openSUSE that you have to get rid of it at all costs? Under Novell, huge thanks to the suse engineers, you get to enjoy a free distro, free build service (that is open source and you can run your own), openFate (also free and open source), kiwi (an awesome image building tool), suse studio (not all open source, but free), flown some community people around, banshee, the mono project (whether you like it or not I don't really care.. still on the list), etc All we seem to do is complain about Novell and its engineers... Why don't you start publicly thanking them for the work that they do do? Cheers, Stephen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-09-16 17:01, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
If you don't talk to much and do something you're my kind of guy. Up until now i have seen nothing from you except talk and complaints. Here's your chance to change that. It'll probably the last one Denver. Make something out of it.
He contributes a lot helping users, just not in these mail lists. There is more! ;-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkySezsACgkQU92UU+smfQX8YQCeLis63Jzcnr+BctydJw4VuT6M Kf4AoJKXbhwliGoz51ASTITJeBeUNPxe =MbwT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Charles Wight wrote:
They are a software development powerhouse! Products like firefox and thunderbird are simply their most visible works. For example, there are probably few websites of any significance, corporate or otherwise, that don't use Mozilla's xerces and xalan libraries.
Aren't they (xerces and xalan) apache projects? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.7°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 09/16/2010 12:52 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Charles Wight wrote:
They are a software development powerhouse! Products like firefox and thunderbird are simply their most visible works. For example, there are probably few websites of any significance, corporate or otherwise, that don't use Mozilla's xerces and xalan libraries. Aren't they (xerces and xalan) apache projects?
YES! ... lol ... I obviously confused the two projects ... thx for the correction! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On 16.09.2010 15:37, Charles Wight wrote:
On 09/16/2010 06:20 AM, Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:
Truth be told, the stronger we make ourselves as an important "upstream" project of the SLE family, the more Novell, or its successor, or anyone, will take notice of us and recognize that we're here to stay and we do something very important here.
So, keep your heads focused on the prize -- openSUSE Project, and don't let the activities of our partners deter from what we are doing.
While I don't necessarily agree or disagree with DenverD, his post reflects a clear reality: the OpenSUSE "community" could effectively disappear in the course of a day.
A neat example of FUD again. Reduce a highly complex situation to a single sentence to emphasize the outcome you foretell. Nearly all the opensolaris infrastructure works untill today doesn't it? Especially communication channels and the like...
The only way OpenSUSE can ever be safe from the whims of the accountants and financiers is to become independent of any single large corporate sponser. I don't see it happening ... so uncertainty is the prevalent reality ....
You certainly don't do anything to do change this. So why don't you just sit back and watch instead of telling the people who seriously try to do something about it that they are doomed to fail? Put up or shut up Charles! :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 09/16/2010 09:07 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hi,
On 16.09.2010 15:37, Charles Wight wrote:
On 09/16/2010 06:20 AM, Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:
Truth be told, the stronger we make ourselves as an important "upstream" project of the SLE family, the more Novell, or its successor, or anyone, will take notice of us and recognize that we're here to stay and we do something very important here.
So, keep your heads focused on the prize -- openSUSE Project, and don't let the activities of our partners deter from what we are doing.
While I don't necessarily agree or disagree with DenverD, his post reflects a clear reality: the OpenSUSE "community" could effectively disappear in the course of a day. A neat example of FUD again. Reduce a highly complex situation to a single sentence to emphasize the outcome you foretell. Nearly all the opensolaris infrastructure works untill today doesn't it? Especially communication channels and the like...
The only way OpenSUSE can ever be safe from the whims of the accountants and financiers is to become independent of any single large corporate sponser. I don't see it happening ... so uncertainty is the prevalent reality .... You certainly don't do anything to do change this. So why don't you just sit back and watch instead of telling the people who seriously try to do something about it that they are doomed to fail?
Put up or shut up Charles! :)
Henne
Hello Henne, The uncertainty is real, not FUD. OpenSOLARIS as an Oracle product is alive and well. The OpenSOLARIS "community" ended in the course of a day. Whether or not OpenSUSE survives as a product will depend upon it's value to Novell's successor. As for the "community", things are far less certain. Cheers, charles (but feel free to call me chicken little) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
El 16/09/10 10:30, Charles Wight escribió:
The uncertainty is real, not FUD.
OpenSOLARIS as an Oracle product is alive and well.
Unix is dead, since a loong, looooooooong time
The OpenSOLARIS "community" ended in the course of a day.
A symptom that unix is dead, that's it. Whether or not OpenSUSE survives as a product will depend upon it's
value to Novell's successor.
There is no sucessfull linux distribution out there without and opensource project behind it, RH/Fedora, canonical/Ubuntu ..etc.. you get the idea. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hey, On 16.09.2010 16:18, Charles Wight wrote:
As for the "community", things are far less certain.
It's the community that suffers from your FUD at this time, don't you get that? You have influence on this community. In a time of insecurity you put fear, uncertainty and doubt into people's minds. Your remarks don't do anything good. opensuse-project is not your own private smalltalk forum you know that right? You are accountable for what you say here. So put up and earn the right to complain about things that hinder you to make this project more independent or shut up and leave us, who try, alone. I've had enough of your mumblings. Really. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
* Charles Wight <charles.wight@gmail.com> [2010-09-16 15:37]:
On 09/16/2010 06:20 AM, Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:
Truth be told, the stronger we make ourselves as an important "upstream" project of the SLE family, the more Novell, or its successor, or anyone, will take notice of us and recognize that we're here to stay and we do something very important here.
So, keep your heads focused on the prize -- openSUSE Project, and don't let the activities of our partners deter from what we are doing.
Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member
While I don't necessarily agree or disagree with DenverD, his post reflects a clear reality: the OpenSUSE "community" could effectively disappear in the course of a day. It just happened with Open Solaris. Read some of the blogs by former Open Solaris contributors! I think they provide some valuable lessons-learned.
Apart from the fact that OpenSolaris never was as open or community-based as openSUSE has become already, it is a good example how the end of such a (open-source) project can be the beginning of something new which has the potential to become something even better in terms of openness and community-focus.
I suspect that whether or not OpenSUSE is or is not important to SLE (I've heard both sides of the argument here) is of no relevance. It's unlikely that the folk making the decisions will know anything about the project other than projected cost.
The only way OpenSUSE can ever be safe from the whims of the accountants and financiers is to become independent of any single large corporate sponser. I don't see it happening ... so uncertainty is the prevalent reality ....
Nothing is ever 100% certain, you could say the same about Canonical which apparently still depends on the funding of a single individual. Given the community interest in openSUSE you can be fairly certain that it will be continued in one way or another should a possible new owner discontinue sponsorship. And this probably applies to Ubuntu, or Fedora as well. That is not to say that more diverse funding wouldn't be a good thing. Why is there till no foundation? P.S. If your interested in a replacement for OpenSolaris, join us at http://openindiana.org/ -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 09/16/2010 09:43 AM, Guido Berhoerster wrote:
P.S. If your interested in a replacement for OpenSolaris, join us at http://openindiana.org/
THANKS! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 16 September 2010 09:56:13 Charles Wight wrote:
On 09/16/2010 09:43 AM, Guido Berhoerster wrote:
P.S.
If your interested in a replacement for OpenSolaris, join us at http://openindiana.org/
THANKS!
So, all the talk came because you lost the nest. I can understand that. You can see that opensource communities have their ways to survive unfavorable changes, and considering openSUSE and pulling the plug, there is infrastructure that is not Novell. Not as big and powerful, but it is just enough that pulling a plug is not critical. If people recall that there is a Google search then all problems are solved :) -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
DenverD wrote:
[snip] i wonder what happens if (as has happened too often in recent weeks) the forum (or mail lists/irc/wiki/etc) machines/nets need TLC to return to work...[snip]
like now: the gateway between the nntp and http forums has been down since about midnight in Utah...and (if history serves as a predictor) it will probably remain down until a Utah employee gets to work and gets time to fix the problem.. which seems to be the result of the only apparent administrator(s) of the system with privileges needed to fix the problem being in Utah and on the payroll _but_ tending to the open forum's machinery outside of the "paying job", on a secondary priority basis.. my original posting was to focus on those areas where the open community is SO dependent on corporate nodes that if they fail it is really hard to continue 'business as usual' no matter the desire to do so.. imo _some_ movement towards a means for the Community to have more control over the vital communications systems and links is prudent--even if a sale were not potentially eminent.. *or* is there someone on this side of the earth able to fix it? DenverD -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Tuesday 21 September 2010 schrieb DenverD:
DenverD wrote:
[snip]
i wonder what happens if (as has happened too often in recent weeks) the forum (or mail lists/irc/wiki/etc) machines/nets need TLC to return to work...[snip]
like now: the gateway between the nntp and http forums has been down since about midnight in Utah...and (if history serves as a predictor) it will probably remain down until a Utah employee gets to work and gets time to fix the problem..
And all volunteers are up 24 hours and don't sleep and have work to do for a living, right? Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Tuesday 21 September 2010 schrieb DenverD:
[snip]
i wonder what happens if (as has happened too often in recent weeks) the forum (or mail lists/irc/wiki/etc) machines/nets need TLC to return to work...[snip]
DenverD wrote: like now: the gateway between the nntp and http forums has been down since about midnight in Utah...and (if history serves as a predictor) it will probably remain down until a Utah employee gets to work and gets time to fix the problem..
And all volunteers are up 24 hours and don't sleep and have work to do for a living, right?
perhaps you would have a different view if these mail lists, SUSE Studio, IRC or your chosen method/communications means to contribute were unavailable for hours at a time on nine days in the past three months (2 Jul, 9 Jul, 21 Jul, 15 Aug, 22 Aug, 4 Sep, 13 Sep, 14 Sep, and 21 Sep...was down over seven hours today).. we can hope the buyer is able to find volunteer (or contracted) administrators on three or more sides of earth. DenverD -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 21 September 2010 20:52:49 DenverD wrote:
Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Tuesday 21 September 2010 schrieb DenverD:
[snip]
i wonder what happens if (as has happened too often in recent weeks) the forum (or mail lists/irc/wiki/etc) machines/nets need TLC to return to work...[snip]
DenverD wrote: like now: the gateway between the nntp and http forums has been down since about midnight in Utah...and (if history serves as a predictor) it will probably remain down until a Utah employee gets to work and gets time to fix the problem..
And all volunteers are up 24 hours and don't sleep and have work to do for a living, right?
perhaps you would have a different view if these mail lists, SUSE Studio, IRC or your chosen method/communications means to contribute were unavailable for hours at a time on nine days in the past three months (2 Jul, 9 Jul, 21 Jul, 15 Aug, 22 Aug, 4 Sep, 13 Sep, 14 Sep, and 21 Sep...was down over seven hours today)..
we can hope the buyer is able to find volunteer (or contracted) administrators on three or more sides of earth.
Well if the community is unhappy with the services provided by Novell and the other sponsors, we can look for money somewhere else. If you have ideas on how to provide about a 100.000 worth of bandwith, diskspace and computing power a year, I'm sure the board loves to hear it. At least, once a foundation has been set up, we can start planning for improvements in our infrastructure. And I guess your concerns come with a willingness to do something about it so we can put you down as volunteer for maintenance, right? Until then, let's be happy Novell is paying for our infrastructure. It might not be perfect but as Stephan basically said - volunteer-run infrastructure won't be either.
DenverD
Well if the community is unhappy with the services provided by Novell and the other sponsors, we can look for money somewhere else. If you have ideas on how to provide about a 100.000 worth of bandwith, diskspace and computing power a year, I'm sure the board loves to hear it. At least, once a foundation has been set up, we can start planning for improvements in our infrastructure. And I guess your concerns come with a willingness to do something about it so we can put you down as volunteer for maintenance, right?
Until then, let's be happy Novell is paying for our infrastructure. It might not be perfect but as Stephan basically said - volunteer-run infrastructure won't be either.
I really don't understand - how do people (community or not) accept a service / product / whatever from someone else _for free_ and then complain about it? Are they the group who live at home and complain about their parents also? If you have constructive suggestions for improving the service then make them. If you don't like the service (or provider) stop dealing with them. If you want to complain, find a valid reason to do so and complain about something you expect to be changed. Anything else is whinging. There may be a new service provider / sponsor / supporter of openSUSE at some point in the future, either soon, or later. Nothing lasts forever. Until then, either accept what we have or do something to improve it. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Jos Poortvliet wrote:
On Tuesday 21 September 2010 20:52:49 DenverD wrote:
Am Tuesday 21 September 2010 schrieb DenverD:
[snip]
i wonder what happens if (as has happened too often in recent weeks) the forum (or mail lists/irc/wiki/etc) machines/nets need TLC to return to work...[snip]
DenverD wrote: like now: the gateway between the nntp and http forums has been down since about midnight in Utah...and (if history serves as a predictor) it will probably remain down until a Utah employee gets to work and gets time to fix the problem..
And all volunteers are up 24 hours and don't sleep and have work to do for a living, right?
Stephan Kulow wrote: perhaps you would have a different view if these mail lists, SUSE Studio, IRC or your chosen method/communications means to contribute were unavailable for hours at a time on nine days in the past three months (2 Jul, 9 Jul, 21 Jul, 15 Aug, 22 Aug, 4 Sep, 13 Sep, 14 Sep, and 21 Sep...was down over seven hours today)..
we can hope the buyer is able to find volunteer (or contracted) administrators on three or more sides of earth.
Well if the community is unhappy with the services provided by Novell and the other sponsors, we can look for money somewhere else. If you have ideas on how to provide about a 100.000 worth of bandwith, diskspace and computing power a year, I'm sure the board loves to hear it. At least, once a foundation has been set up, we can start planning for improvements in our infrastructure. And I guess your concerns come with a willingness to do something about it so we can put you down as volunteer for maintenance, right?
i'm afraid the Community would be *very* disappointed if i volunteered to maintain our comm links/networks....because if selected all would suffer from a 'simple user' playing administrator.. on the other hand, i am leveraging my meager technical talents the best i can to maintain my own system and help those new folks with even less capability.. additionally, i've been known to make cash (and time) donations to worthy causes of many ilk (including open source).. may i ask: is it required to actually _have_ the technical ability to remedy a problem before one is allowed to voice it? if so, i guess i better leave. on the other hand, some may be surprised to know that even those technologically untrained/unable to keep comm systems/networks humming along smoothly can (sometimes) recognize when the _system_ of hardware, software, and _administrator_ availability is broken and/or not performing at an acceptable or optimal level.. and, for the record: i'm very happy we currently have sponsors with 100,000 available to keep the digits moving....today. and, don't see the wisdom in waiting until they cease (if they do) to begin taking steps to find alternative sources and capabilities, *should* they be needed.. DenverD -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch, 22. September 2010, 16:49:02 schrieb DenverD:
may i ask: is it required to actually _have_ the technical ability to remedy a problem before one is allowed to voice it? if so, i guess i better leave.
It's not helping to voice the same concern over and over again without offering an alternative. The current infrastructure is good and we can be thankful for Novell for sponsoring it, there is no alternative in sight. You can help by creating an alternative, it won't be started by people who deem the current situation acceptable, which I believe is the majority. Regards, Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 22 September 2010 09:59:38 Karsten König wrote:
It's not helping to voice the same concern over and over again without offering an alternative.
How about servers that are not all located in one place, as alternative to what we have now. Not as powerful and expensive, but able to jump in when main is down for whatever reason? Imagine HP.com down? Why that would be a problem?
The current infrastructure is good and we can be thankful for Novell for sponsoring it, there is no alternative in sight. You can help by creating an alternative, it won't be started by people who deem the current situation acceptable, which I believe is the majority.
I agree, and that is exactly what DeverD is trying to do, alert people that infrastructure needs improvement, so simply discarding his effort as dissent doesn't show that some people gave enough thoughts to his words. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Rajko M. <rmatov101@charter.net> wrote:
On Wednesday 22 September 2010 09:59:38 Karsten König wrote:
It's not helping to voice the same concern over and over again without offering an alternative.
How about servers that are not all located in one place, as alternative to what we have now. Not as powerful and expensive, but able to jump in when main is down for whatever reason?
Imagine HP.com down? Why that would be a problem?
The current infrastructure is good and we can be thankful for Novell for sponsoring it, there is no alternative in sight. You can help by creating an alternative, it won't be started by people who deem the current situation acceptable, which I believe is the majority.
I agree, and that is exactly what DeverD is trying to do, alert people that infrastructure needs improvement, so simply discarding his effort as dissent doesn't show that some people gave enough thoughts to his words.
Well I can't comment on the extend to which this has been discussed before. What I can say is that there is work going on on setting up a foundation - and also that it is probably obvious that without a foundation it is very hard to solve the problem of dependence on our current sponsors. So the discussion leads to quite some frustration and leads to huge discussions with few outcome. I think if such questions come up it's probably best to initially talk about them with eg the board or me or others who might know the answer in private. If many have questions like these, the board or others would do a statement. And of course if the answer you get from them/me/others is not satisfactory you're free to discuss it in public - I don't want to hide issues or anything. Just asking for a bit more restraint... Cheers, Jos
-- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
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Jos Poortvliet wrote:
I think if such questions come up it's probably best to initially talk about them with eg the board or me or others who might know the answer in private. If many have questions like these, the board or others would do a statement. And of course if the answer you get from them/me/others is not satisfactory you're free to discuss it in public
had anyone ever made that offer before, i might have sent the note that started this thread, directly to the board...and, thereby missed getting _smeared_ with that FUD brush so liberally to used to quieten any who think ignoring all potential eventualities is not the best plan forward..
- I don't want to hide issues or anything. Just asking for a bit more restraint...
more (with restraint), in your mail. DenverD -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 16:49:02 +0200, DenverD wrote:
and, for the record: i'm very happy we currently have sponsors with 100,000 available to keep the digits moving....today. and, don't see the wisdom in waiting until they cease (if they do) to begin taking steps to find alternative sources and capabilities, *should* they be needed..
Your assumption here, Denver, is that *if* Novell should be bought (and all there are right now, as you know, is rumours, and nothing more), the infrastructure would completely vanish on sale day + 1. In all my years of dealing with corporate acquisitions (as an employee on both sides of the sale/merger), I can tell you that is not how it works. Once there's a public announcement made, there is a transition period that can last from weeks to years, depending on the sizes of the organizations involved. In that transition period, plans are put into place to ensure continuity of services that are currently provided. What makes you think that the infrastructure currently in place would vanish *overnight* should such a sale happen? I ask because in my experience having gone through *many* M&As myself, that just isn't the way it works in the real world. The reason why many people look at what you're saying as FUD is because even with the best of intentions for the community (which I don't doubt you have), you're sowing seeds of fear, uncertainty, and doubt about the future of openSUSE and the openSUSE communications infrastructure with no real solid backing of any facts as to what the situation is with Novell. Why do I say you have no solid backing of any facts as to Novell's situation? Simple: No facts are available to anyone other than those of the Novell board of directors who are involved in any such discussions, and the people they *may* be in discussions with, and those who have knowledge are legally barred by the US Securities and Exchange Commission from disclosing any facts until such time as a public announcement *can* be made. So you're just making assumptions based on speculation and statements made to the press by "unnamed sources" and then *creating* fear about what would happen to the community if everything folded up the day after a sale went through. That's what's causing the reaction you're getting here. It seems to me the sensible thing to do is to stay aware of the situation with Novell and *if* something happens to the company, react to that announcement *when it happens* because the odds of the entire infrastructure just being powered off the instant an announcement is made are really quite small. In the incredibly unlikely event that situation were to happen, a core group (the board) would already know how to contact each other and start work to get an infrastructure up, domain names transferred and so on, and get the systems back online as soon as possible. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Jim Henderson wrote:
It seems to me the sensible thing to do is to stay aware of the situation with Novell and *if* something happens to the company, react to that announcement *when it happens*
thank you for your experienced opinion.. DenverD -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
<snip lots of stuff I agree with>
It seems to me the sensible thing to do is to stay aware of the situation with Novell and *if* something happens to the company, react to that announcement *when it happens* because the odds of the entire infrastructure just being powered off the instant an announcement is made are really quite small. In the incredibly unlikely event that situation were to happen, a core group (the board) would already know how to contact each other and start work to get an infrastructure up, domain names transferred and so on, and get the systems back online as soon as possible.
Here I disagree. There is the possibility that at some time (sooner or later) OS will need an alternative supplier of infrastructure. It is sensible for any organisation to prepare plans (but not enact them) against such a major and likely eventuality. Maybe the board is already doing so. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:07:44 +0100, Administrator wrote:
<snip lots of stuff I agree with>
It seems to me the sensible thing to do is to stay aware of the situation with Novell and *if* something happens to the company, react to that announcement *when it happens* because the odds of the entire infrastructure just being powered off the instant an announcement is made are really quite small. In the incredibly unlikely event that situation were to happen, a core group (the board) would already know how to contact each other and start work to get an infrastructure up, domain names transferred and so on, and get the systems back online as soon as possible.
Here I disagree. There is the possibility that at some time (sooner or later) OS will need an alternative supplier of infrastructure. It is sensible for any organisation to prepare plans (but not enact them) against such a major and likely eventuality. Maybe the board is already doing so.
Perhaps they are - though as Jos pointed out, the infrastructure donation Novell has made is rather valuable, having something that costly "on standby" is likely to be fairly expensive as well. Hot site backups don't come cheap. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
It seems to me the sensible thing to do is to stay aware of the situation with Novell and *if* something happens to the company, react to that announcement *when it happens* because the odds of the entire infrastructure just being powered off the instant an announcement is made are really quite small. In the incredibly unlikely event that situation were to happen, a core group (the board) would already know how to contact each other and start work to get an infrastructure up, domain names transferred and so on, and get the systems back online as soon as possible.
Here I disagree. There is the possibility that at some time (sooner or later) OS will need an alternative supplier of infrastructure. It is sensible for any organisation to prepare plans (but not enact them) against such a major and likely eventuality. Maybe the board is already doing so.
Perhaps they are - though as Jos pointed out, the infrastructure donation Novell has made is rather valuable, having something that costly "on standby" is likely to be fairly expensive as well. Hot site backups don't come cheap.
It's not so much having a hot standby, but having a plan of what you would do, and having had "what if" discussions with potential supporters / suppliers. It's fairly standard in for any business-critical service for the customer to have informal and confidential discussions with the current supplier's competitors to see what options there are. I would suggest that some such is needed here. Obviously a difficult thing for the Novell board members to be party to, or indeed for the competitors to supply any serious information knowing the Novell board members would see it. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 10:27:48 +0100, Administrator wrote:
Perhaps they are - though as Jos pointed out, the infrastructure donation Novell has made is rather valuable, having something that costly "on standby" is likely to be fairly expensive as well. Hot site backups don't come cheap.
It's not so much having a hot standby, but having a plan of what you would do, and having had "what if" discussions with potential supporters / suppliers. It's fairly standard in for any business-critical service for the customer to have informal and confidential discussions with the current supplier's competitors to see what options there are. I would suggest that some such is needed here.
True, and I certainly can't/wouldn't dispute that a contingency plan is a good thing to have. But part of such a plan would have to include how to pay for it if it had to be put in place. Perhaps such discussions are underway.
Obviously a difficult thing for the Novell board members to be party to, or indeed for the competitors to supply any serious information knowing the Novell board members would see it.
Well, I could see it being difficult from the standpoint of steering clear of any discussion/speculation about Novell's future, but in terms of planning, I don't see that there should be any difficulty. As an employee myself, I know the difficulty all of us "on the inside" are faced with when it comes to this type of speculation (because we're expressly barred from discussing any potential scenarios for legal reasons), but in terms of service continuation? I personally don't see that there should be any problem in discussing it. The thing that ultimately needs to be done is a contingency plan, but without the "the sky is falling" feeling based on speculation based on rumours in some of the press or based on the idea that if the sponsor were to be acquired or broken up that services would stop *immediately* when an announcement were made. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
participants (20)
-
Administrator -
Bryen M. Yunashko -
C -
Carlos E. R. -
Charles Wight -
Cristian Rodríguez -
DenverD -
Guido Berhoerster -
Henne Vogelsang -
jdd -
Jim Henderson -
John Kelly -
Jos Poortvliet -
Karsten König -
Martin Schröder -
Nikanth Karthikesan -
Per Jessen -
Rajko M. -
Stephan Kulow -
Stephen Shaw