On Tuesday 19 May 2009 13:07:02 Vincent Untz wrote:

Hrm, nobody is telling you how you should think. The checkbox just means "yes, I agree with this", not "yes, I will think like this"

Sure it does. If I read it loud, I read what I am supposed to think and how I have to behave to be a part of the openSUSE community. BTW, it says "Do you want to support the Guiding Principles?", which is a bit more than just agreeing, IMHO. It's not like just realizing what the project stands for, it is more like giving a promise. Uwe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 19 May 2009, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

Il giorno mar, 19/05/2009 alle 14.02 +0200, Uwe Buckesfeld ha scritto:

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On Tuesday 19 May 2009 13:07:02 Vincent Untz wrote:

BTW, it says "Do you want to support the Guiding Principles?", which is a bit more than just agreeing, IMHO. It's not like just realizing what the project stands for, it is more like giving a promise.

Exactly. Similar reasons led me to remove the check from the box.

Btw, you don't have to share all those principles, or accept them formally to be part of openSUSE IMHO. So I would not worry too much about that.

Short question: is the number of subscribers to the principles very close to the number of community members? ;-) No its not, 293 members compared to 2,840 supporters of the GP's. M Bye

-- Michael Löffler, Product Management Email: michl@suse.de Phone: +49 911 74053-376 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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On 5/19/2009 at 14:02, Uwe Buckesfeld wrote: BTW, it says "Do you want to support the Guiding Principles?", which is a bit more than just agreeing, IMHO. It's not like just realizing what the project

Which part of the Guiding principles is so bad that it can't be accepted (granted, for most people most things should just be considered as 'normal'). I might have forgotten the worst thing I signed there. But when I read all this back in times I did not feel like I'd have to change my entire live or style in order to comply to hose Guiding Principles. On the other hand, for this discussion, just pointing out the real paragraphs that caused you to shiver might be of interest to all of us. We might have overlooked it, it might be mis-worded and as such could be re-phrased. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 17:11 +0200, Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

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On 5/19/2009 at 14:02, Uwe Buckesfeld wrote: BTW, it says "Do you want to support the Guiding Principles?", which is a bit more than just agreeing, IMHO. It's not like just realizing what the project

Which part of the Guiding principles is so bad that it can't be accepted (granted, for most people most things should just be considered as 'normal'). I might have forgotten the worst thing I signed there. But when I read all this back in times I did not feel like I'd have to change my entire live or style in order to comply to hose Guiding Principles.

On the other hand, for this discussion, just pointing out the real paragraphs that caused you to shiver might be of interest to all of us. We might have overlooked it, it might be mis-worded and as such could be re-phrased.

Dominique

Personally, I think this is an interesting discussion, not for its content but for how it has gone down a rather negative path. I think Stephen Binner points out aptly that most likely, people are not signing the guiding principles because the path to it is not so obvious. I think it is impossible to discuss reasons why people might *choose* to sign or not sign without first answering that very point that Stephen brings up. Taking advantage of a thread to immediately espouse one's negative reasonings why a large body of people may or may not have signed it cannot be addressed without first proving or disproving whether they were able to notice the Guiding Principles easily in the first place. While a topic like this is clearly within the purview of the responsibilities of the Board and something that we should address as a regular course of business, it would be entirely irresponsible for us to re-address the content of the Guiding Principles without first verifying accessibility to the Guiding Principles, since we have not heard widespread complaint from the 2000+ people out there who didn't sign it in the first place. -- Bryen Yunashko openSUSE Board Member openSUSE-GNOME Team Member GNOME-A11y Team Member www.bryen.com (Personal Blog) www.planet-a11y.net (Feed aggregator of the Accessibility Community) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 17:43 +0200, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

Bryen schrieb:

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Personally, I think this is an interesting discussion, not for its content but for how it has gone down a rather negative path. I think Stephen Binner points out aptly that most likely, people are not signing the guiding principles because the path to it is not so obvious.

That is one thing. The other is: Why would people sign the principles at all? What's the advantage for the user? "Signing" something which is probably not even well understood (it's english only, isn't it) without getting anything back is not what I usually do lightheaded.

Wolfgang

Wolfgang, I think that's also an excellent point and adds to the discussion of accessibility to the Guiding Principles. Not the question of whether people know how to get to it, but once they get there, do they understand what's being presented to them? Maybe there should be a translation in as many languages as possible on that page? Sort of like when we see a welcome page in multiple languages across a screen. It makes you feel welcome and says "We hear and welcome you in all languages." -- Bryen Yunashko openSUSE Board Member openSUSE-GNOME Team Member GNOME-A11y Team Member www.bryen.com (Personal Blog) www.planet-a11y.net (Feed aggregator of the Accessibility Community) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 19 May 2009 17:43:55 Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

The other is: Why would people sign the principles at all? What's the advantage for the user?

You cannot become an openSUSE member when you didn't sign them :-) Uwe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 19 May 2009 19:03:12 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:

I believe Uwe was objecting to the concept of having to "sign" and not necessarily the principles themselves.

Exactly. Uwe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua a écrit :

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If active openSUSE members (or volunteers) don't agree on basic principles, these principles have a great problem

Not necessarily. If I have to agree to a list of principles and sign it, it means I share all of them, in detail.

we have to share a minimal amount of things if not we are not a community jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Il giorno mar, 19/05/2009 alle 23.13 +0200, jdd ha scritto:

we have to share a minimal amount of things if not we are not a community

I think we would not be here to talk about that if we were not a community, and to be a good one it is not necessary to share all the guiding principles as a faith. For example, I don't consider openness and free software a principle nor a required condition, but an added value, because I don't usually evaluate a software on the base of it being free or open, but on the basis of what it does for me. Once it does that, I think "it's open? great!". I am sure a lot of people will disagree with me on this point, so take it as an example and not as an attempt to start an endless discussion. :-) About "sharing something", the openSUSE community is a good example of how people with different goals, ideas, background, preparation and expectations work together. I would say they take part to the community for very different reasons, and they did that long before the guiding principles. Most of the active contributors are actually friends more than simple members, so in the end they share something more than the principles. That's what builds the community, not a list. ;-) Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Reading this thread, I think this issue has two points and each point can be broken down into sub-points. * Many people might not be aware of that they *can* sign the Guiding Principles. - Is the GP accessible for everyone ? - Is the procedure to sign th GP easy to understand ? - Is users.o.o right place to put the checkbox for signing ? Do users know actually the purpose of users.o.o ? I think these can be determined or analyzed and can be improved if needed. * Some people feel no need to sign the Guiding Principles. - What does 'sign' or 'supprt' mean ? Is it clear for everyone ? - What kind of advantages or benefits can users get if they sign the GP ? - Why is the GP needed to be signed ? - Are there any points that people don't want to agree with ? I myself wish as many users/contributers as possible will sign and support the GP. I know we have many users and contributers in our community and they have their own minds. We have to respect each other's thoughts and faith. However, we need to have some principles to be a community, like all democratic countries have their own constitutions. Without such principles, how can we solve problems and make decisions in our community ? The GP is, IMHO, the point of origin where we have to go back if we are not sure which road to take, and that's why it is needed to be signed and supported by as many users/contributers in our community as possible. People who are interested only in 'products', usually don't mind backgrounds of the products, how and by whom the products is made. Their interests might be: 'Is this OS better than other OSs for me ?' and 'Is this free of charge ?' And if they find that openSUSE is a good - or better - choice for them, they would use openSUSE. Creating and distributing such an OS is one of our goal, but this is not one and only. We have to remember that by reading the GP again and again. Bryen wrote:

I think that's also an excellent point and adds to the discussion of accessibility to the Guiding Principles. Not the question of whether people know how to get to it, but once they get there, do they understand what's being presented to them? Maybe there should be a translation in as many languages as possible on that page?

I've translated the GP into Japanese[1] already and AFAIK, there's a German translation[2] on the Wiki. [1] http://ja.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles [2] http://de.opensuse.org/Leitlinien But, you know, the GP page on en.o.o is one of the protected pages and we cannnot add inter wiki link - pull down language selector - to the page by ourselves. Best, -- _/_/ Satoru Matsumoto - openSUSE Member - Japan _/_/ _/_/ Marketing/Weekly News/openFATE Screening Team _/_/ _/_/ mail: helios_reds_at_gmx.net / irc: HeliosReds _/_/ _/_/ http://blog.geeko.jp/author/heliosreds _/_/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Dienstag 19 Mai 2009 18:39:27 Uwe Buckesfeld wrote:

On Tuesday 19 May 2009 17:11:12 Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

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Which part of the Guiding principles is so bad that it can't be accepted (granted, for most people most things should just be considered as 'normal'). Well, yes. We all hope this. We all know that this is not the case, however.

As I said, most of the things written go without saying (Be nice to others, help others, spread the word, yaddayadda...) Good.

It's the tone. It sounds all oh so important. I have token oaths before, most of which deal with protecting freedom, courage, justice. Important stuff. But this here is just a freaking operating system. I see where you coming from. Let me congratulate, you have the most exciting and wonderful part of the so called free software world still in front of you. That is discovering that community really is more than some "only" freaking software.

Put the guiding principles somewhere, no problem, but give me a chance to ignore them <G> Yes, no prob. There are always people who are stating openly what the values are and others who do not.

regards, Klaas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le mardi 19 mai 2009, à 18:39 +0200, Uwe Buckesfeld a écrit :

this here is just a freaking operating system. Put the guiding principles somewhere, no problem, but give me a chance to ignore them <G>

It's perfectly fine to have people not 100% agree with the principles, and not sign them. And of course the community won't close its doors tp these people when this happen: contributions are always welcome :-) That being said, the guiding principles help explain the identity of the project, and of the community behind the project. That's why they are important, imho, and having people support them will strenghten our identity. Just to explain to you why some people think this kind of things is important (while for you, it's not that important): quite some contributors feel that they're helping making the world a better place by contributing to free software. It's not just an OS for those people. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 20 May 2009 11:25:46 Vincent Untz wrote:

That being said, the guiding principles help explain the identity of the project, and of the community behind the project. That's why they are important, imho, and having people support them will strenghten our identity.

Just to explain to you why some people think this kind of things is important (while for you, it's not that important): quite some contributors feel that they're helping making the world a better place by contributing to free software. It's not just an OS for those people.

I know. It's exactly this religious, or better missionary aspect of FOSS I don't share. It's a tad like Jehova's witnesses ringing your door bell: You are perfectly fine with the cosmos, and suddenly there are these friendly people who cannot understand why you are happy <G> You'll probably never convince me we are talking about more than software. Nevertheless I consider myself part of the community, and I do what I think is good for the project. Okay, I think we wasted enough time on the question why *I* don't sign the guiding principles. Back to the question why 6000 others don't :-) Uwe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 20 May 2009 05:05:28 Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

For example, I don't consider openness and free software a principle nor a required condition, but an added value, because I don't usually evaluate a software on the base of it being free or open, but on the basis of what it does for me. Once it does that, I think "it's open? great!".

Now I don't feel that alone any more. If we find a third one thinking like that, we could have a group hug. ;-) SCNR Uwe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hi, i agree with the fact that people do not need to agree entirely with all the GP , which is their freedom of choice. But if the % of people not ok is too important we also need to make sure it's not because of too restrictive rules , or it's not impeding some to have access to things they could have access to if GP were 100% agreed (this due to a minor item in the GP for example) -- Fabrice -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Uwe Buckesfeld wrote:

Wouldn't it be possible to just send out a mail to all openSUSE members and plain ask why they didn't sign? Seems to the most efficient way to get some more anwers to the question.

By definition, all members have signed. A survey might be a good idea, if we feel that there's a serious deficiency that X number of users haven't signed the guiding principles. I'm not sure this is the most pressing issue before the project at the moment, though. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Uwe Buckesfeld wrote:

On Tuesday 19 May 2009 17:11:12 Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

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Which part of the Guiding principles is so bad that it can't be accepted (granted, for most people most things should just be considered as 'normal').

As I said, most of the things written go without saying (Be nice to others, help others, spread the word, yaddayadda...)

It's the tone. It sounds all oh so important. I have token oaths before, most of which deal with protecting freedom, courage, justice. Important stuff. But this here is just a freaking operating system. Put the guiding principles somewhere, no problem, but give me a chance to ignore them <G>

Uwe, I read your posting a little late, but it's well written - you've got a point. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org