Le 07/11/2020 à 18:55, Gerald Pfeifer a écrit :

On Sat 2020-11-07, Stasiek Michalski wrote:

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After a few months of preparation we will be switching mailing lists over to Mailman on 10. November. The current plan is as follows:

Yeah!

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There is a wiki page link to which will be included with both E-Mails explaining the differences between mlmmj and mailman3: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_Lists_Migration

This is a Wiki, so please chime in an help improve. (If you do not have access, drop me a note with your suggestions and I'll give it a try - as long as I understand the matter well enough. ;-)

Gerald

I trust the techs for the work, but I had to do a similar thing recently (on a much more confidential network), and I simply duplicated the lists config for some hours, thinking it's better to have posts twice than none :-) jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 11:07 AM Henne Vogelsang wrote:

Hey,

On 07.11.20 15:39, Stasiek Michalski wrote:

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There is a wiki page link to which will be included with both E-Mails explaining the differences between mlmmj and mailman3: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_Lists_Migration

Phew, what's the rationale to not support your subscribers in *any* way during this? With compatible lists addresses or at least compatible headers?

There are over 700.000(!) individual subscribers on the lists. Nearly 10.000(!) of them have more than one subscription. I bet you, subscribers who have more than 5 subscriptions number in the hundreds. Out of those you will find dozens that have complicated mail filtering going on.

You want to render this incompatible with 3 days of notice. Have you thought about the amount of work you are going to cause?

Of course we did. This was discussed two months ago[1]. The reason we're pulling the trigger now is that suse.com is switching on a DMARC policy that will break sending any emails to openSUSE mailing lists. Mailman offered a reasonable path for those emails, so we're doing the transition now with "short notice". You'd still have to deal with this even if we could wait a bit longer, but you cannot say you didn't know this was coming. [1]: https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2020-08/msg00038.html -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown wrote:

On Sun, 2020-11-08 at 11:13 -0500, Neal Gompa wrote:

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On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 11:07 AM Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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Hey,

On 07.11.20 15:39, Stasiek Michalski wrote:

...

There is a wiki page link to which will be included with both E- Mails explaining the differences between mlmmj and mailman3: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_Lists_Migration

Phew, what's the rationale to not support your subscribers in *any* way during this? With compatible lists addresses or at least compatible headers?

There are over 700.000(!) individual subscribers on the lists. Nearly 10.000(!) of them have more than one subscription. I bet you, subscribers who have more than 5 subscriptions number in the hundreds. Out of those you will find dozens that have complicated mail filtering going on.

You want to render this incompatible with 3 days of notice. Have you thought about the amount of work you are going to cause?

Of course we did. This was discussed two months ago[1]. The reason we're pulling the trigger now is that suse.com is switching on a DMARC policy that will break sending any emails to openSUSE mailing lists. Mailman offered a reasonable path for those emails, so we're doing the transition now with "short notice". You'd still have to deal with this even if we could wait a bit longer, but you cannot say you didn't know this was coming.

the way this is described it sounds to me that SUSE pulled the trigger on implimenting DMARC without fully considering the impact on the openSUSE community, a quite substantial impact as Henne points out.

Can someone please confirm that the Board (and it's Chair) did communicate the severe impact on the community to SUSE, and explain why it was decided to go ahead regardless of that impact?

We have been in contact with the board and SUSE IT for about a month, yes. The problem is the changes made to postings when they are distributed by the mailing list manager. We change the Subject header and prepend the listname (in square brackets) and we append a friendly footer to every posting, explaining to the recipient how to unsubscribe and contact the owner. Those changes invalidate the DKIM signature added by anyone posting to an openSUSE list. The DMARC policy would have meant "suse.com" begin rejected or quarantined by mailservers implementing DMARC. To ensure postings to openSUSE lists from suse.com addresses would continue to be accepted by all mailservers, we had two options - a) remove the listname prefix and the footer texts from all lists, thereby maintaining a valid DKIM signature, b) step up the migration to mailman which had already been in the works for quite some time. As Neal wrote, mailman offers som functionality help mitigate some unwanted effects of DMARC. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.7°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 7:54 AM Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Mon 2020-11-09, Per Jessen wrote:

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We have been in contact with the board and SUSE IT for about a month, yes.

https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/72133 is the original ticket.

SUSE IT has deferred enabling DMARC to give openSUSE more time. The switch is now happening six weeks after they first reached out.

...

To ensure postings to openSUSE lists from suse.com addresses would continue to be accepted by all mailservers, we had two options -

a) remove the listname prefix and the footer texts from all lists, thereby maintaining a valid DKIM signature, b) step up the migration to mailman which had already been in the works for quite some time. As Neal wrote, mailman offers som functionality help mitigate some unwanted effects of DMARC.

I hope b) doesn't mean faking From: headers?

Neal prefers that from what I remember. I believe that's the wrong tradeoff. Been there, done that, still hate it (and now understand why gcc.gnu.org/sourceware.org do that -- redhat.com uses Mimecast, too.)

Yes, I would prefer that, but unfortunately we're doing the opposite. Mailman 3 supports selectively sending the mails pristine too, to pass DMARC tests, so we're doing that for domains that do DMARC reject/quarantine. The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed globally, but footer will only not be appended for emails from domains with the DMARC reject/quarantine policy. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:21 AM Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 09/11/2020 13.59, Neal Gompa wrote:

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On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 7:54 AM Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

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On Mon 2020-11-09, Per Jessen wrote:

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We have been in contact with the board and SUSE IT for about a month, yes. https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/72133 is the original ticket.

SUSE IT has deferred enabling DMARC to give openSUSE more time. The switch is now happening six weeks after they first reached out.

...

To ensure postings to openSUSE lists from suse.com addresses would continue to be accepted by all mailservers, we had two options -

a) remove the listname prefix and the footer texts from all lists, thereby maintaining a valid DKIM signature, b) step up the migration to mailman which had already been in the works for quite some time. As Neal wrote, mailman offers som functionality help mitigate some unwanted effects of DMARC. I hope b) doesn't mean faking From: headers?

Neal prefers that from what I remember. I believe that's the wrong tradeoff. Been there, done that, still hate it (and now understand why gcc.gnu.org/sourceware.org do that -- redhat.com uses Mimecast, too.)

Yes, I would prefer that, but unfortunately we're doing the opposite.

Mailman 3 supports selectively sending the mails pristine too, to pass DMARC tests, so we're doing that for domains that do DMARC reject/quarantine.

The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed globally,

Notice that this breaks filtering for many people.

That was already accepted as a consequence of this migration. However, as one commenter said in the original thread[1], one change in over 15 years isn't that bad. The best we can do here is document the differences and let people know what they need to do to adapt, which we have. [1]: https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2020-08/msg00058.html -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:28 AM Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 09/11/2020 14.24, Neal Gompa wrote:

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On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:21 AM Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

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On 09/11/2020 13.59, Neal Gompa wrote:

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On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 7:54 AM Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

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On Mon 2020-11-09, Per Jessen wrote:

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We have been in contact with the board and SUSE IT for about a month, yes. https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/72133 is the original ticket.

SUSE IT has deferred enabling DMARC to give openSUSE more time. The switch is now happening six weeks after they first reached out.

...

To ensure postings to openSUSE lists from suse.com addresses would continue to be accepted by all mailservers, we had two options -

a) remove the listname prefix and the footer texts from all lists, thereby maintaining a valid DKIM signature, b) step up the migration to mailman which had already been in the works for quite some time. As Neal wrote, mailman offers som functionality help mitigate some unwanted effects of DMARC. I hope b) doesn't mean faking From: headers?

Neal prefers that from what I remember. I believe that's the wrong tradeoff. Been there, done that, still hate it (and now understand why gcc.gnu.org/sourceware.org do that -- redhat.com uses Mimecast, too.)

Yes, I would prefer that, but unfortunately we're doing the opposite.

Mailman 3 supports selectively sending the mails pristine too, to pass DMARC tests, so we're doing that for domains that do DMARC reject/quarantine.

The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed globally,

Notice that this breaks filtering for many people.

That was already accepted

Accepted by whom? Was there a vote?

By the Heroes team doing the work (Stasiek, Per, and myself). -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/11/2020 16.55, Per Jessen wrote:

Neal Gompa wrote:

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On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:28 AM Carlos E. R. wrote:

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...

...

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The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed globally,

Notice that this breaks filtering for many people.

That was already accepted

Accepted by whom? Was there a vote?

By the Heroes team doing the work (Stasiek, Per, and myself).

I second that :-)

Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.

Not visually when one gets a few hundred mail lists in a single mailbox. I can sort into different folders easily, but I can not tell on the inbox what list is each thread. It breaks my workflow completely. It is worse for those using webmail. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 09/11/2020 20.18, Neal Gompa wrote:

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 1:47 PM Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 09/11/2020 16.55, Per Jessen wrote:

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Neal Gompa wrote:

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On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:28 AM Carlos E. R. wrote:

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>> The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed >> globally, > > Notice that this breaks filtering for many people. >

That was already accepted

Accepted by whom? Was there a vote?

By the Heroes team doing the work (Stasiek, Per, and myself).

I second that :-)

Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.

Not visually when one gets a few hundred mail lists in a single mailbox. I can sort into different folders easily, but I can not tell on the inbox what list is each thread. It breaks my workflow completely.

It is worse for those using webmail.

I work *exclusively* through Gmail web UI, so I've long ago sorted and filtered per-list as needed. I know what you're talking about and I'm pretty sure what we're guaranteeing for filtering purposes will work for what you need, but yes unless you filter each list into its own subfolder, you're not going to easily tell visually.

I can not do automatic filtering into folders at the ISP. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 09/11/2020 21.56, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Carlos E. R. [11-09-20 13:49]:

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On 09/11/2020 16.55, Per Jessen wrote:

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Neal Gompa wrote:

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On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:28 AM Carlos E. R. wrote:

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>> The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed >> globally, > > Notice that this breaks filtering for many people. >

That was already accepted

Accepted by whom? Was there a vote?

By the Heroes team doing the work (Stasiek, Per, and myself).

I second that :-)

Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.

Not visually when one gets a few hundred mail lists in a single mailbox. I can sort into different folders easily, but I can not tell on the inbox what list is each thread. It breaks my workflow completely.

you can use procmail to update subject's with visual indicators based on *any* unique headers. and after creating the first, the rest only amount to cut&paste and revise the "indicator".

Not at my ISP IMAP server. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 10/11/2020 08.53, Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 09/11/2020 21.56, Patrick Shanahan wrote: [snip]

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...

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Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.

Not visually when one gets a few hundred mail lists in a single mailbox. I can sort into different folders easily, but I can not tell on the inbox what list is each thread. It breaks my workflow completely.

you can use procmail to update subject's with visual indicators based on *any* unique headers. and after creating the first, the rest only amount to cut&paste and revise the "indicator".

Not at my ISP IMAP server.

Maybe try "imapfilter", I think that might do what you need.

I'm intrigued. Thanks. I have installed it. It is a complex thing. There are some examples mentioned in the documentation, but not included, have to look upstream: https://github.com/lefcha/imapfilter/tree/master/samples However, I do not see the capability to edit the subject line (or anything) at the server. Yes, I could sort them in folders, but that would create havoc to my workflow in many manners. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

Am Di, 10. Nov, 2020 um 6:04 P. M. schrieb Per Jessen :

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 10/11/2020 08.53, Per Jessen wrote:

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Maybe try "imapfilter", I think that might do what you need.

I'm intrigued. Thanks.

I have installed it. It is a complex thing. There are some examples mentioned in the documentation, but not included, have to look upstream:

https://github.com/lefcha/imapfilter/tree/master/samples

However, I do not see the capability to edit the subject line (or anything) at the server. Yes, I could sort them in folders, but that would create havoc to my workflow in many manners.

Well, judging by the current (i.e. post migration) setup, we still have a listname prefix in the Subject line - possibly only for mails from senders with no DMARC policy, dunno. Stasiek ?

Correct, and I will remove them one day for everyone, it's just a lot of manual work to do so. LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world

On 10/11/2020 08.53, Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 09/11/2020 21.56, Patrick Shanahan wrote: [snip]

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...

...

Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.

Not visually when one gets a few hundred mail lists in a single mailbox. I can sort into different folders easily, but I can not tell on the inbox what list is each thread. It breaks my workflow completely.

you can use procmail to update subject's with visual indicators based on *any* unique headers. and after creating the first, the rest only amount to cut&paste and revise the "indicator".

Not at my ISP IMAP server.

Maybe try "imapfilter", I think that might do what you need.

I'm intrigued. Thanks. I have installed it. It is a complex thing. There are some examples mentioned in the documentation, but not included, have to look upstream: https://github.com/lefcha/imapfilter/tree/master/samples However, I do not see the capability to edit the subject line (or anything) at the server. Yes, I could sort them in folders, but that would create havoc to my workflow in many manners. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) _______________________________________________ openSUSE Project mailing list -- project@lists.opensuse.org To unsubscribe, email project-leave@lists.opensuse.org List Netiquette: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette List Archives: https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/project@lists.opensuse.org

Le 10/11/2020 à 15:02, Mathias Homann a écrit :

Are we sure the migration worked? I haven't gotten anything on any of the lists since this morning...

my mails have the old [opensuse-project] but reply to is to the new list jdd -- http://dodin.org

Are we sure the migration worked? I haven't gotten anything on any of the lists since this morning... cheers MH

On Mon 2020-11-09, Per Jessen wrote:

Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.

Which header is (or which are) what you would recommend for filtering? It would be good to document that on the Wiki (and I'll be happy to give that a shot). Gerald -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon 2020-11-09, Neal Gompa wrote:

The new headers are documented on the wiki page already: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_Lists_Migration#Differences_in_head...

I know - most edits on that page are mine. ;-)

The List-Id header is the recommended header to filter on.

Thanks, I updated that section and added that (among the other changes). Gerald -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:25 PM Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 09/11/2020 20.13, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

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On Mon 2020-11-09, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.

Which header is (or which are) what you would recommend for filtering?

It would be good to document that on the Wiki (and I'll be happy to give that a shot).

List-Id: Testing the mailing lists

The filter term is "list:(test.lists.opensuse.org)" in that case.

This is a problem: how will gmail people do the filtering? I will explain the problem.

1) User A replies to a post, using "reply to all"

a) To: opensuse-test@opensuse.org b) CC: someone@gmail.com

2) Now, gmail server will first receive (b), because it has a shorter route. Some seconds or minutes later, it will receive (a). However, as it has the same "Message-ID" and Gmail will delete (a) (known but undocumented gmail policy).

3) User at gmail doesn't get the mail from the list, so he doesn't see the "List-Id" header, and doesn't see the "[opensuse-test] test" type of subject line either.

Question: How can gmail users do a reliable sort of list email? Using the "To:" field? Can that be done?

At least in my case, despite deleting the duplicate message, it still attaches the label. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:28 AM Stasiek Michalski wrote:

On 09/11/2020 13.59, Neal Gompa wrote:

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The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed globally,

It isn't being removed globally, just conditionally

I'm pretty sure we'd want to remove it globally, since not doing so would make Gmail and other "conversation-oriented" clients unnecessarily split threads based on subject header heuristics. They'd still be part of the same thread, but the client won't represent it that way. Given that a third of all emails come from suse.com addresses (and that's a conservative estimate), that would be way too much pain for no gain. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:35 AM Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 09/11/2020 14.27, Stasiek Michalski wrote:

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On 09/11/2020 13.59, Neal Gompa wrote:

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The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed globally,

It isn't being removed globally, just conditionally

Ok, that's better. I assume that if the sender domain doesn't force DMARC, the "[subject]" is included?

...

Am Mo, 9. Nov, 2020 um 2:21 P. M. schrieb Carlos E. R. :

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Notice that this breaks filtering for many people.

There is not much we can do with dmarc/dkim mitigations anyway, some emails cannot have anything changed about them

You could send changing the "from" to be from the mail list instead, as some maillists do. Example:

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 09:09:28 +0200 From: Someguy via lazarus To: lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org Cc: Someguy <Someguy with DMARC> Subject: Re: [Lazarus] Feature Request: Override/Implement methods

I wanted to, but nobody else liked it so we're not doing that. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

By the way, kudos to whoever thought of sending that mail I got with the list of lists I am subscribed to!

Stasiek gets all the credit for that.

(Some of those I am only subscribed as -nomail, to be able to post to them. I assume that will be considered during the migration? That might be a good point to reaffirm on the Wiki, too. If you confirm, I'll give that a try.)

I am pretty certain the migration scripts (also Stasiek) have taken that one into account. I brought up the same issue right at the beginning. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (7.3°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Am Mo, 9. Nov, 2020 um 8:10 P. M. schrieb Gerald Pfeifer :

By the way, kudos to whoever thought of sending that mail I got with the list of lists I am subscribed to!

That part of the script was faulty since it grepped in a way that included lists if the grepped address was a part of another address as well. Not a big deal, but it would probably be good to fix that

(Some of those I am only subscribed as -nomail, to be able to post to them. I assume that will be considered during the migration? That might be a good point to reaffirm on the Wiki, too. If you confirm, I'll give that a try.)

That is correct, the addresses are split into two files per list (subscribers and nomail; actually four for owners an moderators too, but that's irrelevant here I guess) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Olaf Hering composed on 2020-11-10 18:50 (UTC+0100):

Am Mon, 09 Nov 2020 11:25:33 +0100 schrieb Per Jessen:

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We change the Subject header and prepend the listname (in square brackets) and we append a friendly footer to every posting, explaining to the recipient how to unsubscribe and contact the owner.

...

Those changes invalidate the DKIM signature

Then just stop doing such nonsense It's not nonsense. Mailing lists have been prepending listnames for decades because...

It adds zero value for the target audience ...they do serve a useful purpose for their target audiences.

and it is technically wrong That doesn't matter if the majority of actual users decide otherwise, and the admins agree. Rules made by those in no position to be affected by those rules have no business being imposed upon masses who are. Any such "rules" should constitute no more than recommendations. -- Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion, is based on faith, not on science.

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/