[opensuse-project] Mailing Lists Migration 10. Nov
Hi, After a few months of preparation we will be switching mailing lists over to Mailman on 10. November. The current plan is as follows: 1. 9. Nov 10:00 CET E-Mail sent out to all of the current subscribers of all of our mailing lists to notify them of downtime the following day 2. 10. Nov 10:00 CET Mailing Lists are frozen and LCP runs all of the migration scripts ;) 3. When the mailing lists are back up, an E-Mail is sent out to all of the migrated subscribers notifying them of the migration being finished and begging them to report any bugs I expect the mailing lists to be down only for a couple of hours, but in case everything goes wrong, the mailing lists might only come back the next day There is a wiki page link to which will be included with both E-Mails explaining the differences between mlmmj and mailman3: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_Lists_Migration We have already migrated: * opensuse-test <test@lists.opensuse.org> * heroes <heroes@lists.opensuse.org> * uyuni-announce <announce@lists.uyuni-project.org> * uyuni-devel <devel@lists.uyuni-project.org> * uyuni-users <users@lists.uyuni-project.org> * uyuni-translate <translate@lists.uyuni-project.org> Feel free to play around with opensuse-test mailing list to test how it works as well ;) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat 2020-11-07, Stasiek Michalski wrote:
After a few months of preparation we will be switching mailing lists over to Mailman on 10. November. The current plan is as follows:
Yeah!
There is a wiki page link to which will be included with both E-Mails explaining the differences between mlmmj and mailman3: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_Lists_Migration
This is a Wiki, so please chime in an help improve. (If you do not have access, drop me a note with your suggestions and I'll give it a try - as long as I understand the matter well enough. ;-) Gerald -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 07/11/2020 à 18:55, Gerald Pfeifer a écrit :
On Sat 2020-11-07, Stasiek Michalski wrote:
After a few months of preparation we will be switching mailing lists over to Mailman on 10. November. The current plan is as follows:
Yeah!
There is a wiki page link to which will be included with both E-Mails explaining the differences between mlmmj and mailman3: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_Lists_Migration
This is a Wiki, so please chime in an help improve. (If you do not have access, drop me a note with your suggestions and I'll give it a try - as long as I understand the matter well enough. ;-)
Gerald
I trust the techs for the work, but I had to do a similar thing recently (on a much more confidential network), and I simply duplicated the lists config for some hours, thinking it's better to have posts twice than none :-) jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hey, On 07.11.20 15:39, Stasiek Michalski wrote:
There is a wiki page link to which will be included with both E-Mails explaining the differences between mlmmj and mailman3: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_Lists_Migration
Phew, what's the rationale to not support your subscribers in *any* way during this? With compatible lists addresses or at least compatible headers? There are over 700.000(!) individual subscribers on the lists. Nearly 10.000(!) of them have more than one subscription. I bet you, subscribers who have more than 5 subscriptions number in the hundreds. Out of those you will find dozens that have complicated mail filtering going on. You want to render this incompatible with 3 days of notice. Have you thought about the amount of work you are going to cause? Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 11:07 AM Henne Vogelsang <hvogel@opensuse.org> wrote:
Hey,
On 07.11.20 15:39, Stasiek Michalski wrote:
There is a wiki page link to which will be included with both E-Mails explaining the differences between mlmmj and mailman3: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_Lists_Migration
Phew, what's the rationale to not support your subscribers in *any* way during this? With compatible lists addresses or at least compatible headers?
There are over 700.000(!) individual subscribers on the lists. Nearly 10.000(!) of them have more than one subscription. I bet you, subscribers who have more than 5 subscriptions number in the hundreds. Out of those you will find dozens that have complicated mail filtering going on.
You want to render this incompatible with 3 days of notice. Have you thought about the amount of work you are going to cause?
Of course we did. This was discussed two months ago[1]. The reason we're pulling the trigger now is that suse.com is switching on a DMARC policy that will break sending any emails to openSUSE mailing lists. Mailman offered a reasonable path for those emails, so we're doing the transition now with "short notice". You'd still have to deal with this even if we could wait a bit longer, but you cannot say you didn't know this was coming. [1]: https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2020-08/msg00038.html -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2020-11-08 at 11:13 -0500, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 11:07 AM Henne Vogelsang <hvogel@opensuse.org> wrote:
Hey,
On 07.11.20 15:39, Stasiek Michalski wrote:
There is a wiki page link to which will be included with both E- Mails explaining the differences between mlmmj and mailman3: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_Lists_Migration
Phew, what's the rationale to not support your subscribers in *any* way during this? With compatible lists addresses or at least compatible headers?
There are over 700.000(!) individual subscribers on the lists. Nearly 10.000(!) of them have more than one subscription. I bet you, subscribers who have more than 5 subscriptions number in the hundreds. Out of those you will find dozens that have complicated mail filtering going on.
You want to render this incompatible with 3 days of notice. Have you thought about the amount of work you are going to cause?
Of course we did. This was discussed two months ago[1]. The reason we're pulling the trigger now is that suse.com is switching on a DMARC policy that will break sending any emails to openSUSE mailing lists. Mailman offered a reasonable path for those emails, so we're doing the transition now with "short notice". You'd still have to deal with this even if we could wait a bit longer, but you cannot say you didn't know this was coming.
the way this is described it sounds to me that SUSE pulled the trigger on implimenting DMARC without fully considering the impact on the openSUSE community, a quite substantial impact as Henne points out. Can someone please confirm that the Board (and it's Chair) did communicate the severe impact on the community to SUSE, and explain why it was decided to go ahead regardless of that impact? Regards, -- Richard Brown Linux Distribution Engineer - Future Technology Team Phone +4991174053-361 SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Richard Brown wrote:
On Sun, 2020-11-08 at 11:13 -0500, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 11:07 AM Henne Vogelsang <hvogel@opensuse.org> wrote:
Hey,
On 07.11.20 15:39, Stasiek Michalski wrote:
There is a wiki page link to which will be included with both E- Mails explaining the differences between mlmmj and mailman3: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_Lists_Migration
Phew, what's the rationale to not support your subscribers in *any* way during this? With compatible lists addresses or at least compatible headers?
There are over 700.000(!) individual subscribers on the lists. Nearly 10.000(!) of them have more than one subscription. I bet you, subscribers who have more than 5 subscriptions number in the hundreds. Out of those you will find dozens that have complicated mail filtering going on.
You want to render this incompatible with 3 days of notice. Have you thought about the amount of work you are going to cause?
Of course we did. This was discussed two months ago[1]. The reason we're pulling the trigger now is that suse.com is switching on a DMARC policy that will break sending any emails to openSUSE mailing lists. Mailman offered a reasonable path for those emails, so we're doing the transition now with "short notice". You'd still have to deal with this even if we could wait a bit longer, but you cannot say you didn't know this was coming.
the way this is described it sounds to me that SUSE pulled the trigger on implimenting DMARC without fully considering the impact on the openSUSE community, a quite substantial impact as Henne points out.
Can someone please confirm that the Board (and it's Chair) did communicate the severe impact on the community to SUSE, and explain why it was decided to go ahead regardless of that impact?
We have been in contact with the board and SUSE IT for about a month, yes. The problem is the changes made to postings when they are distributed by the mailing list manager. We change the Subject header and prepend the listname (in square brackets) and we append a friendly footer to every posting, explaining to the recipient how to unsubscribe and contact the owner. Those changes invalidate the DKIM signature added by anyone posting to an openSUSE list. The DMARC policy would have meant "suse.com" begin rejected or quarantined by mailservers implementing DMARC. To ensure postings to openSUSE lists from suse.com addresses would continue to be accepted by all mailservers, we had two options - a) remove the listname prefix and the footer texts from all lists, thereby maintaining a valid DKIM signature, b) step up the migration to mailman which had already been in the works for quite some time. As Neal wrote, mailman offers som functionality help mitigate some unwanted effects of DMARC. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.7°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon 2020-11-09, Per Jessen wrote:
We have been in contact with the board and SUSE IT for about a month, yes.
https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/72133 is the original ticket. SUSE IT has deferred enabling DMARC to give openSUSE more time. The switch is now happening six weeks after they first reached out.
To ensure postings to openSUSE lists from suse.com addresses would continue to be accepted by all mailservers, we had two options -
a) remove the listname prefix and the footer texts from all lists, thereby maintaining a valid DKIM signature, b) step up the migration to mailman which had already been in the works for quite some time. As Neal wrote, mailman offers som functionality help mitigate some unwanted effects of DMARC.
I hope b) doesn't mean faking From: headers? Neal prefers that from what I remember. I believe that's the wrong tradeoff. Been there, done that, still hate it (and now understand why gcc.gnu.org/sourceware.org do that -- redhat.com uses Mimecast, too.) Gerald -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 7:54 AM Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com> wrote:
On Mon 2020-11-09, Per Jessen wrote:
We have been in contact with the board and SUSE IT for about a month, yes.
https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/72133 is the original ticket.
SUSE IT has deferred enabling DMARC to give openSUSE more time. The switch is now happening six weeks after they first reached out.
To ensure postings to openSUSE lists from suse.com addresses would continue to be accepted by all mailservers, we had two options -
a) remove the listname prefix and the footer texts from all lists, thereby maintaining a valid DKIM signature, b) step up the migration to mailman which had already been in the works for quite some time. As Neal wrote, mailman offers som functionality help mitigate some unwanted effects of DMARC.
I hope b) doesn't mean faking From: headers?
Neal prefers that from what I remember. I believe that's the wrong tradeoff. Been there, done that, still hate it (and now understand why gcc.gnu.org/sourceware.org do that -- redhat.com uses Mimecast, too.)
Yes, I would prefer that, but unfortunately we're doing the opposite. Mailman 3 supports selectively sending the mails pristine too, to pass DMARC tests, so we're doing that for domains that do DMARC reject/quarantine. The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed globally, but footer will only not be appended for emails from domains with the DMARC reject/quarantine policy. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/11/2020 13.59, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 7:54 AM Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com> wrote:
On Mon 2020-11-09, Per Jessen wrote:
We have been in contact with the board and SUSE IT for about a month, yes. https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/72133 is the original ticket.
SUSE IT has deferred enabling DMARC to give openSUSE more time. The switch is now happening six weeks after they first reached out.
To ensure postings to openSUSE lists from suse.com addresses would continue to be accepted by all mailservers, we had two options -
a) remove the listname prefix and the footer texts from all lists, thereby maintaining a valid DKIM signature, b) step up the migration to mailman which had already been in the works for quite some time. As Neal wrote, mailman offers som functionality help mitigate some unwanted effects of DMARC. I hope b) doesn't mean faking From: headers?
Neal prefers that from what I remember. I believe that's the wrong tradeoff. Been there, done that, still hate it (and now understand why gcc.gnu.org/sourceware.org do that -- redhat.com uses Mimecast, too.)
Yes, I would prefer that, but unfortunately we're doing the opposite.
Mailman 3 supports selectively sending the mails pristine too, to pass DMARC tests, so we're doing that for domains that do DMARC reject/quarantine.
The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed globally,
Notice that this breaks filtering for many people. -- Cheers -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:21 AM Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
On 09/11/2020 13.59, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 7:54 AM Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com> wrote:
On Mon 2020-11-09, Per Jessen wrote:
We have been in contact with the board and SUSE IT for about a month, yes. https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/72133 is the original ticket.
SUSE IT has deferred enabling DMARC to give openSUSE more time. The switch is now happening six weeks after they first reached out.
To ensure postings to openSUSE lists from suse.com addresses would continue to be accepted by all mailservers, we had two options -
a) remove the listname prefix and the footer texts from all lists, thereby maintaining a valid DKIM signature, b) step up the migration to mailman which had already been in the works for quite some time. As Neal wrote, mailman offers som functionality help mitigate some unwanted effects of DMARC. I hope b) doesn't mean faking From: headers?
Neal prefers that from what I remember. I believe that's the wrong tradeoff. Been there, done that, still hate it (and now understand why gcc.gnu.org/sourceware.org do that -- redhat.com uses Mimecast, too.)
Yes, I would prefer that, but unfortunately we're doing the opposite.
Mailman 3 supports selectively sending the mails pristine too, to pass DMARC tests, so we're doing that for domains that do DMARC reject/quarantine.
The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed globally,
Notice that this breaks filtering for many people.
That was already accepted as a consequence of this migration. However, as one commenter said in the original thread[1], one change in over 15 years isn't that bad. The best we can do here is document the differences and let people know what they need to do to adapt, which we have. [1]: https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2020-08/msg00058.html -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/11/2020 14.24, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:21 AM Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
On 09/11/2020 13.59, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 7:54 AM Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com> wrote:
On Mon 2020-11-09, Per Jessen wrote:
We have been in contact with the board and SUSE IT for about a month, yes. https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/72133 is the original ticket.
SUSE IT has deferred enabling DMARC to give openSUSE more time. The switch is now happening six weeks after they first reached out.
To ensure postings to openSUSE lists from suse.com addresses would continue to be accepted by all mailservers, we had two options -
a) remove the listname prefix and the footer texts from all lists, thereby maintaining a valid DKIM signature, b) step up the migration to mailman which had already been in the works for quite some time. As Neal wrote, mailman offers som functionality help mitigate some unwanted effects of DMARC. I hope b) doesn't mean faking From: headers?
Neal prefers that from what I remember. I believe that's the wrong tradeoff. Been there, done that, still hate it (and now understand why gcc.gnu.org/sourceware.org do that -- redhat.com uses Mimecast, too.)
Yes, I would prefer that, but unfortunately we're doing the opposite.
Mailman 3 supports selectively sending the mails pristine too, to pass DMARC tests, so we're doing that for domains that do DMARC reject/quarantine.
The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed globally,
Notice that this breaks filtering for many people.
That was already accepted
Accepted by whom? Was there a vote?
as a consequence of this migration. However, as one commenter said in the original thread[1], one change in over 15 years isn't that bad.
The best we can do here is document the differences and let people know what they need to do to adapt, which we have.
[1]: https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2020-08/msg00058.html
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:28 AM Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
On 09/11/2020 14.24, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:21 AM Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
On 09/11/2020 13.59, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 7:54 AM Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com> wrote:
On Mon 2020-11-09, Per Jessen wrote:
We have been in contact with the board and SUSE IT for about a month, yes. https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/72133 is the original ticket.
SUSE IT has deferred enabling DMARC to give openSUSE more time. The switch is now happening six weeks after they first reached out.
To ensure postings to openSUSE lists from suse.com addresses would continue to be accepted by all mailservers, we had two options -
a) remove the listname prefix and the footer texts from all lists, thereby maintaining a valid DKIM signature, b) step up the migration to mailman which had already been in the works for quite some time. As Neal wrote, mailman offers som functionality help mitigate some unwanted effects of DMARC. I hope b) doesn't mean faking From: headers?
Neal prefers that from what I remember. I believe that's the wrong tradeoff. Been there, done that, still hate it (and now understand why gcc.gnu.org/sourceware.org do that -- redhat.com uses Mimecast, too.)
Yes, I would prefer that, but unfortunately we're doing the opposite.
Mailman 3 supports selectively sending the mails pristine too, to pass DMARC tests, so we're doing that for domains that do DMARC reject/quarantine.
The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed globally,
Notice that this breaks filtering for many people.
That was already accepted
Accepted by whom? Was there a vote?
By the Heroes team doing the work (Stasiek, Per, and myself). -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Neal Gompa wrote:
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:28 AM Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed globally,
Notice that this breaks filtering for many people.
That was already accepted
Accepted by whom? Was there a vote?
By the Heroes team doing the work (Stasiek, Per, and myself).
I second that :-) Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.7°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/11/2020 16.55, Per Jessen wrote:
Neal Gompa wrote:
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:28 AM Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed globally,
Notice that this breaks filtering for many people.
That was already accepted
Accepted by whom? Was there a vote?
By the Heroes team doing the work (Stasiek, Per, and myself).
I second that :-)
Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.
Not visually when one gets a few hundred mail lists in a single mailbox. I can sort into different folders easily, but I can not tell on the inbox what list is each thread. It breaks my workflow completely. It is worse for those using webmail. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 1:47 PM Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 09/11/2020 16.55, Per Jessen wrote:
Neal Gompa wrote:
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:28 AM Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
> The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed > globally,
Notice that this breaks filtering for many people.
That was already accepted
Accepted by whom? Was there a vote?
By the Heroes team doing the work (Stasiek, Per, and myself).
I second that :-)
Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.
Not visually when one gets a few hundred mail lists in a single mailbox. I can sort into different folders easily, but I can not tell on the inbox what list is each thread. It breaks my workflow completely.
It is worse for those using webmail.
I work *exclusively* through Gmail web UI, so I've long ago sorted and filtered per-list as needed. I know what you're talking about and I'm pretty sure what we're guaranteeing for filtering purposes will work for what you need, but yes unless you filter each list into its own subfolder, you're not going to easily tell visually. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/11/2020 20.18, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 1:47 PM Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 09/11/2020 16.55, Per Jessen wrote:
Neal Gompa wrote:
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:28 AM Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
>> The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed >> globally, > > Notice that this breaks filtering for many people. >
That was already accepted
Accepted by whom? Was there a vote?
By the Heroes team doing the work (Stasiek, Per, and myself).
I second that :-)
Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.
Not visually when one gets a few hundred mail lists in a single mailbox. I can sort into different folders easily, but I can not tell on the inbox what list is each thread. It breaks my workflow completely.
It is worse for those using webmail.
I work *exclusively* through Gmail web UI, so I've long ago sorted and filtered per-list as needed. I know what you're talking about and I'm pretty sure what we're guaranteeing for filtering purposes will work for what you need, but yes unless you filter each list into its own subfolder, you're not going to easily tell visually.
I can not do automatic filtering into folders at the ISP. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [11-09-20 13:49]:
On 09/11/2020 16.55, Per Jessen wrote:
Neal Gompa wrote:
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:28 AM Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
> The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed > globally,
Notice that this breaks filtering for many people.
That was already accepted
Accepted by whom? Was there a vote?
By the Heroes team doing the work (Stasiek, Per, and myself).
I second that :-)
Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.
Not visually when one gets a few hundred mail lists in a single mailbox. I can sort into different folders easily, but I can not tell on the inbox what list is each thread. It breaks my workflow completely.
you can use procmail to update subject's with visual indicators based on *any* unique headers. and after creating the first, the rest only amount to cut&paste and revise the "indicator". -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/11/2020 21.56, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [11-09-20 13:49]:
On 09/11/2020 16.55, Per Jessen wrote:
Neal Gompa wrote:
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:28 AM Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
>> The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed >> globally, > > Notice that this breaks filtering for many people. >
That was already accepted
Accepted by whom? Was there a vote?
By the Heroes team doing the work (Stasiek, Per, and myself).
I second that :-)
Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.
Not visually when one gets a few hundred mail lists in a single mailbox. I can sort into different folders easily, but I can not tell on the inbox what list is each thread. It breaks my workflow completely.
you can use procmail to update subject's with visual indicators based on *any* unique headers. and after creating the first, the rest only amount to cut&paste and revise the "indicator".
Not at my ISP IMAP server. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 09/11/2020 21.56, Patrick Shanahan wrote: [snip]
Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.
Not visually when one gets a few hundred mail lists in a single mailbox. I can sort into different folders easily, but I can not tell on the inbox what list is each thread. It breaks my workflow completely.
you can use procmail to update subject's with visual indicators based on *any* unique headers. and after creating the first, the rest only amount to cut&paste and revise the "indicator".
Not at my ISP IMAP server.
Maybe try "imapfilter", I think that might do what you need. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (6.9°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/11/2020 08.53, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 09/11/2020 21.56, Patrick Shanahan wrote: [snip]
Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.
Not visually when one gets a few hundred mail lists in a single mailbox. I can sort into different folders easily, but I can not tell on the inbox what list is each thread. It breaks my workflow completely.
you can use procmail to update subject's with visual indicators based on *any* unique headers. and after creating the first, the rest only amount to cut&paste and revise the "indicator".
Not at my ISP IMAP server.
Maybe try "imapfilter", I think that might do what you need.
I'm intrigued. Thanks. I have installed it. It is a complex thing. There are some examples mentioned in the documentation, but not included, have to look upstream: <https://github.com/lefcha/imapfilter/tree/master/samples> However, I do not see the capability to edit the subject line (or anything) at the server. Yes, I could sort them in folders, but that would create havoc to my workflow in many manners. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 10/11/2020 08.53, Per Jessen wrote:
Maybe try "imapfilter", I think that might do what you need.
I'm intrigued. Thanks.
I have installed it. It is a complex thing. There are some examples mentioned in the documentation, but not included, have to look upstream:
<https://github.com/lefcha/imapfilter/tree/master/samples>
However, I do not see the capability to edit the subject line (or anything) at the server. Yes, I could sort them in folders, but that would create havoc to my workflow in many manners.
Well, judging by the current (i.e. post migration) setup, we still have a listname prefix in the Subject line - possibly only for mails from senders with no DMARC policy, dunno. Stasiek ? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (6.9°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
Am Di, 10. Nov, 2020 um 6:04 P. M. schrieb Per Jessen <per@opensuse.org>:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 10/11/2020 08.53, Per Jessen wrote:
Maybe try "imapfilter", I think that might do what you need.
I'm intrigued. Thanks.
I have installed it. It is a complex thing. There are some examples mentioned in the documentation, but not included, have to look upstream:
<https://github.com/lefcha/imapfilter/tree/master/samples>
However, I do not see the capability to edit the subject line (or anything) at the server. Yes, I could sort them in folders, but that would create havoc to my workflow in many manners.
Well, judging by the current (i.e. post migration) setup, we still have a listname prefix in the Subject line - possibly only for mails from senders with no DMARC policy, dunno. Stasiek ?
Correct, and I will remove them one day for everyone, it's just a lot of manual work to do so. LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world
On 2020/11/10 02:49, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 10/11/2020 08.53, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 09/11/2020 21.56, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
[snip]
Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header
you can use procmail to update subject's with visual indicators based on *any* unique headers.
Maybe try "imapfilter", I think that might do what you need.
I'm intrigued. Thanks.
--- This is one area where a custom script is hard to beat. Admittedly I wrote it for perl4 when I worked for Sun and I chose it over procmail as procmail had some growing pains back then. However, unless one knows a good scripting language, pretty well, it is a bit daunting to add to an existing flow. It's also a major reason I'm picky about my system's perl setup as it does effectively does sorting for over 100 email addrs. Runs it through SpamAssassin as well and it does email-related service monitoring and kills fetchmail if it doesn't detect the right ones running. At times, I had it sorting over 100-150/day into about 85+ folders.
I have installed it. It is a complex thing.
Almost anything that gives you the flexibility to filter anything is going to be complex.
However, I do not see the capability to edit the subject line (or anything) at the server. Yes, I could sort them in folders, but that would create havoc to my workflow in many manners.
---- Yeah, I understand that -- you get one that works for you, and change can result in painful productivity problems. My script filters out that [listname] stuff on many, but I have to choose to remove it since I was very cautious about changing emails.
On 10/11/2020 08.53, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 09/11/2020 21.56, Patrick Shanahan wrote: [snip]
Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.
Not visually when one gets a few hundred mail lists in a single mailbox. I can sort into different folders easily, but I can not tell on the inbox what list is each thread. It breaks my workflow completely.
you can use procmail to update subject's with visual indicators based on *any* unique headers. and after creating the first, the rest only amount to cut&paste and revise the "indicator".
Not at my ISP IMAP server.
Maybe try "imapfilter", I think that might do what you need.
I'm intrigued. Thanks. I have installed it. It is a complex thing. There are some examples mentioned in the documentation, but not included, have to look upstream: <https://github.com/lefcha/imapfilter/tree/master/samples> However, I do not see the capability to edit the subject line (or anything) at the server. Yes, I could sort them in folders, but that would create havoc to my workflow in many manners. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) _______________________________________________ openSUSE Project mailing list -- project@lists.opensuse.org To unsubscribe, email project-leave@lists.opensuse.org List Netiquette: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette List Archives: https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/project@lists.opensuse.org
Are we sure the migration worked? I haven't gotten anything on any of the lists since this morning... cheers MH
Le 10/11/2020 à 15:02, Mathias Homann a écrit :
Are we sure the migration worked? I haven't gotten anything on any of the lists since this morning...
my mails have the old [opensuse-project] but reply to is to the new list jdd -- http://dodin.org
Am Dienstag, 10. November 2020, 15:02:49 CET schrieb Mathias Homann:
Are we sure the migration worked? I haven't gotten anything on any of the lists since this morning...
Looks like that went pretty smooth! Thanks a lot to the migration team - well done! Axel
Are we sure the migration worked? I haven't gotten anything on any of the lists since this morning... cheers MH
вівторок, 10 листопада 2020 р. 16:06:30 EET Mathias Homann написано:
Are we sure the migration worked? I haven't gotten anything on any of the lists since this morning...
cheers MH
Hi, Well, I've got this mail, nothing more from old or new mail list. -- Kind regards, Mykola Krachkovsky -- Найкращі побажання, Микола Крачковський
On Mon 2020-11-09, Per Jessen wrote:
Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.
Which header is (or which are) what you would recommend for filtering? It would be good to document that on the Wiki (and I'll be happy to give that a shot). Gerald -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:13 PM Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com> wrote:
On Mon 2020-11-09, Per Jessen wrote:
Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.
Which header is (or which are) what you would recommend for filtering?
It would be good to document that on the Wiki (and I'll be happy to give that a shot).
The new headers are documented on the wiki page already: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_Lists_Migration#Differences_in_head... The List-Id header is the recommended header to filter on. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon 2020-11-09, Neal Gompa wrote:
The new headers are documented on the wiki page already: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_Lists_Migration#Differences_in_head...
I know - most edits on that page are mine. ;-)
The List-Id header is the recommended header to filter on.
Thanks, I updated that section and added that (among the other changes). Gerald -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/11/2020 20.13, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Mon 2020-11-09, Per Jessen wrote:
Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.
Which header is (or which are) what you would recommend for filtering?
It would be good to document that on the Wiki (and I'll be happy to give that a shot).
List-Id: Testing the mailing lists <test.lists.opensuse.org> This is a problem: how will gmail people do the filtering? I will explain the problem. 1) User A replies to a post, using "reply to all" a) To: opensuse-test@opensuse.org b) CC: someone@gmail.com 2) Now, gmail server will first receive (b), because it has a shorter route. Some seconds or minutes later, it will receive (a). However, as it has the same "Message-ID" and Gmail will delete (a) (known but undocumented gmail policy). 3) User at gmail doesn't get the mail from the list, so he doesn't see the "List-Id" header, and doesn't see the "[opensuse-test] test" type of subject line either. Question: How can gmail users do a reliable sort of list email? Using the "To:" field? Can that be done? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 2:25 PM Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
On 09/11/2020 20.13, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Mon 2020-11-09, Per Jessen wrote:
Yes, that listname prefix in the Subject header is not the only thing that can be used for filtering. I think Stasiek described the new headers on the wiki page.
Which header is (or which are) what you would recommend for filtering?
It would be good to document that on the Wiki (and I'll be happy to give that a shot).
List-Id: Testing the mailing lists <test.lists.opensuse.org>
The filter term is "list:(test.lists.opensuse.org)" in that case.
This is a problem: how will gmail people do the filtering? I will explain the problem.
1) User A replies to a post, using "reply to all"
a) To: opensuse-test@opensuse.org b) CC: someone@gmail.com
2) Now, gmail server will first receive (b), because it has a shorter route. Some seconds or minutes later, it will receive (a). However, as it has the same "Message-ID" and Gmail will delete (a) (known but undocumented gmail policy).
3) User at gmail doesn't get the mail from the list, so he doesn't see the "List-Id" header, and doesn't see the "[opensuse-test] test" type of subject line either.
Question: How can gmail users do a reliable sort of list email? Using the "To:" field? Can that be done?
At least in my case, despite deleting the duplicate message, it still attaches the label. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/11/2020 13.59, Neal Gompa wrote:
The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed globally,
It isn't being removed globally, just conditionally Am Mo, 9. Nov, 2020 um 2:21 P. M. schrieb Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org>:
Notice that this breaks filtering for many people.
There is not much we can do with dmarc/dkim mitigations anyway, some emails cannot have anything changed about them LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:28 AM Stasiek Michalski <hellcp@opensuse.org> wrote:
On 09/11/2020 13.59, Neal Gompa wrote:
The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed globally,
It isn't being removed globally, just conditionally
I'm pretty sure we'd want to remove it globally, since not doing so would make Gmail and other "conversation-oriented" clients unnecessarily split threads based on subject header heuristics. They'd still be part of the same thread, but the client won't represent it that way. Given that a third of all emails come from suse.com addresses (and that's a conservative estimate), that would be way too much pain for no gain. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/11/2020 14.27, Stasiek Michalski wrote:
On 09/11/2020 13.59, Neal Gompa wrote:
The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed globally,
It isn't being removed globally, just conditionally
Ok, that's better. I assume that if the sender domain doesn't force DMARC, the "[subject]" is included?
Am Mo, 9. Nov, 2020 um 2:21 P. M. schrieb Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org>:
Notice that this breaks filtering for many people.
There is not much we can do with dmarc/dkim mitigations anyway, some emails cannot have anything changed about them
You could send changing the "from" to be from the mail list instead, as some maillists do. Example: Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 09:09:28 +0200 From: Someguy via lazarus <lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org> To: lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org Cc: Someguy <Someguy with DMARC> Subject: Re: [Lazarus] Feature Request: Override/Implement methods -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 8:35 AM Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 09/11/2020 14.27, Stasiek Michalski wrote:
On 09/11/2020 13.59, Neal Gompa wrote:
The listname prefix in the subject header is being removed globally,
It isn't being removed globally, just conditionally
Ok, that's better. I assume that if the sender domain doesn't force DMARC, the "[subject]" is included?
Am Mo, 9. Nov, 2020 um 2:21 P. M. schrieb Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org>:
Notice that this breaks filtering for many people.
There is not much we can do with dmarc/dkim mitigations anyway, some emails cannot have anything changed about them
You could send changing the "from" to be from the mail list instead, as some maillists do. Example:
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 09:09:28 +0200 From: Someguy via lazarus <lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org> To: lazarus@lists.lazarus-ide.org Cc: Someguy <Someguy with DMARC> Subject: Re: [Lazarus] Feature Request: Override/Implement methods
I wanted to, but nobody else liked it so we're not doing that. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon 2020-11-09, Neal Gompa wrote:
Mailman 3 supports selectively sending the mails pristine too, to pass DMARC tests, so we're doing that for domains that do DMARC reject/quarantine.
Wow, that indeed is feature rich. Would you mind adding a bit on that to the Wiki? I tried to note what I could, yet think it'd be better for those of you deeper into the matter to cover those aspects. By the way, kudos to whoever thought of sending that mail I got with the list of lists I am subscribed to! (Some of those I am only subscribed as -nomail, to be able to post to them. I assume that will be considered during the migration? That might be a good point to reaffirm on the Wiki, too. If you confirm, I'll give that a try.) Gerald -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
By the way, kudos to whoever thought of sending that mail I got with the list of lists I am subscribed to!
Stasiek gets all the credit for that.
(Some of those I am only subscribed as -nomail, to be able to post to them. I assume that will be considered during the migration? That might be a good point to reaffirm on the Wiki, too. If you confirm, I'll give that a try.)
I am pretty certain the migration scripts (also Stasiek) have taken that one into account. I brought up the same issue right at the beginning. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (7.3°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le lundi 09 novembre 2020 à 20:10 +0100, Gerald Pfeifer a écrit :
By the way, kudos to whoever thought of sending that mail I got with the list of lists I am subscribed to!
(Some of those I am only subscribed as -nomail, to be able to post to them. I assume that will be considered during the migration? That might be a good point to reaffirm on the Wiki, too. If you confirm, I'll give that a try.)
As a side-note, there's a bug in the script that generated that mail as it contained some mailing lists I'm not subscribed to anymore. Happy to provide details off-list if it's useful. I don't know if that means that I'll get subscribed to them again in mailman... It's no big deal for me as I'll quickly check my subscriptions, but I can imagine that some people may be surprised by that. Cheers, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am Mo, 9. Nov, 2020 um 8:10 P. M. schrieb Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com>:
By the way, kudos to whoever thought of sending that mail I got with the list of lists I am subscribed to!
That part of the script was faulty since it grepped in a way that included lists if the grepped address was a part of another address as well. Not a big deal, but it would probably be good to fix that
(Some of those I am only subscribed as -nomail, to be able to post to them. I assume that will be considered during the migration? That might be a good point to reaffirm on the Wiki, too. If you confirm, I'll give that a try.)
That is correct, the addresses are split into two files per list (subscribers and nomail; actually four for owners an moderators too, but that's irrelevant here I guess) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am Mon, 09 Nov 2020 11:25:33 +0100 schrieb Per Jessen <per@opensuse.org>:
We change the Subject header and prepend the listname (in square brackets) and we append a friendly footer to every posting, explaining to the recipient how to unsubscribe and contact the owner.
Those changes invalidate the DKIM signature
Then just stop doing such nonsense? It adds zero value for the target audience, and it is technically wrong. Olaf
Olaf Hering composed on 2020-11-10 18:50 (UTC+0100):
Am Mon, 09 Nov 2020 11:25:33 +0100 schrieb Per Jessen:
We change the Subject header and prepend the listname (in square brackets) and we append a friendly footer to every posting, explaining to the recipient how to unsubscribe and contact the owner.
Those changes invalidate the DKIM signature
Then just stop doing such nonsense It's not nonsense. Mailing lists have been prepending listnames for decades because...
It adds zero value for the target audience ...they do serve a useful purpose for their target audiences.
and it is technically wrong That doesn't matter if the majority of actual users decide otherwise, and the admins agree. Rules made by those in no position to be affected by those rules have no business being imposed upon masses who are. Any such "rules" should constitute no more than recommendations. -- Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion, is based on faith, not on science.
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
participants (17)
-
Axel Braun -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Felix Miata -
Gerald Pfeifer -
Henne Vogelsang -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Linda Walsh -
Mathias Homann -
Mykola Krachkovsky -
Neal Gompa -
Olaf Hering -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Richard Brown -
Stasiek Michalski -
Vincent Untz