On Tuesday 08 June 2010 14:28:27 Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

[...] As for independence: do we want / need this? Just look at all the services provided by Novell for the project: - openSUSE BuildService -> How many servers can 'we' as community afford without a partner, who is going to host it? Who is taking care of the energy bill? - Bugzilla: Why splitting it off? What's the real gain (other than having a different branded stylesheet?) (maybe having a CNAME from bugzilla.opensuse.org would be nice though; one that brings me to bugzilla, and not to en.opensuse.org/Submit_a_Bug )

No problem do change the CNAME. We discussed this in bugzilla and thought this way might be the better way.

- Bandwidth for mirror syncs: How much bandwidth can we afford without a strong parter to our side?

Nothing against the idea of appearing as a strong project and putting a point to it: but consider everything when shouting loud out for 'let's get independent from Novell'.

And I think that's the discussion we should have: Are we a strong project? And if not, how can we become one? How will you make this happen? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

...

...

On 06/08/2010 at 2:35 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote: And I think that's the discussion we should have: Are we a strong project? And if not, how can we become one? How will you make this happen?

I agree: the discussion of becoming a strong project is important and is (hopefully) in line of what the strategy discussion / draft will bring up. But I doubt that splitting off from the main sponsor (maybe not so much in man-power anymore, but a lot of resources in infrastructure!) is a good start in gaining strength. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 08/06/10 22:32, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

On Tuesday 08 June 2010 14:21:05 Trifle Menot wrote:

...

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 10:05:40 +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

openSUSE has evolved from SUSE Linux which was a distribution developed behind the firewall to a project with open mailing lists, bugzilla and wiki now to a real open source project. It's not anymore only Novell/SUSE employees that can do things - everybody in the community can get involved. That includes filing bug reports - like Richard does -, software translation, writing documentation, marketing the project and development. There might need to be some attitude adjustement for Novell developers for many of whom openSUSE is not the first priority and I'm happy to help with that when it gets pointed out to me. The question remains how to grow the openSUSE contributor community so that Richard doesn't need to learn C++ to get a bug fixed ;)

If you like to continue this thread, please followup on the opensuse-project mailing list with a different subject

I hear rumors Novell is for sale. Will opensuse get its own bugzilla independent from Novell? And what else needs to be done for opensuse to gain full independence?

Novell is a public traded company and it received an unfriendly offer for buy- out that was rejected. Let's not speculate what will or could happen but instead look where we want openSUSE to go.

Well you now have 3 rumours to contend with: that Novell is looking for someone to take it out it of its misery, that Google is thinking of buying Novell, and that the rival Linux distro Red Hat is also "in the race". Haven't heard any denials from Novell about this. Good luck. BC -- Attorney: All your responses MUST be oral, OK? What school did you go to? Witness: Oral. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 15:28, Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:

And you won't hear any denials nor confirmations of this from Novell. Novell can't comment on such speculations until there is an actual agreement in place to purchase Novell.

Speculating about a possible sale or lack of a sale is (as Bryen said) a waste of effort. no one will be able to confirm or deny.. not because they don't want to say anything, but so that if there is a sale negotiation in process, they don't jeopardize that sale.... that plus the tight legal restrictions in place also prevent anyone from saying anything.

That would be premature and frankly, quite immature to do so.  Even if Novell were bought out today, it would still have to undergo regulatory approval process by government agencies and thus would take a long time (possibly up to a year) before any transition became formalized.

Look at how long it's taken for Oracle and Sun to conclude their deal. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Bottom line: If you seek more independence, then just do it (as Henne says.) Each and every one of us brings something unique to the table. If there's something you can do and want to do, do it. And if you encounter obstacles, raise your voice loudly and challenge us (the community) to remove those obstacles to make your work more productive. Our ability to be more independent and have more control over the project has nothing to do with who owns Novell currently or tomorrow. It is us having the wherewithal and resolve to do so. As for sponsorship from other organizations, again this is speculation. We have not done anything yet to actively seek out sponsorships. This is one goal of the Foundation to begin an active process of sponsorship. But until we actively do so, any assumption why we don't have sponsors now besides the primary Novell sponsorship is pure speculation. Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Trifle Menot schreef:

On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 08:53:31 -0500, "Bryen M. Yunashko" wrote:

It's not speculation, it's self evident: Novell/Microsoft is repulsive to other corporate players. Accept it, and recognize that gaining full independence is essential for overcoming it.

This, unfortunately, is true... It was MS way of getting rid of serious competition, and Novells to get some hardneeded bucks.... Full independence means to have resources and fundings to complete an OS that is taken serious. Even so unfortunate is the fact that life costs money, and because of some 'sharks' who want to own all the money, life is becoming more expensive every day. Best option was finding a biljonair who wants to 'own' his own software company, loves to pay all the bills, and who gives all that software away for free, without stressing up all the employees, who work for free, because they are 'involved', and don't know what they should do with their time, except creating the 'newest' software. In what way is this realistic? Nothing in the real world is for free, because everybody is brainwashed to believe and act that way. So, how to change this 'knowledge' into a 'working' solution? The community could buy 'shares', and thus provide an amount of money, gaining influence, feeling more 'responsible', and keep oS 'floating'. (But as many people, as many opinions, so probably this idea will be torpedood, as all the others, and nothing will change... ) This would need a lot of planning, but would eventualy attract more people who want to be involved as soon as 'the word' went out of oS's independence, and bold struggle for survival. It would be possible to show the world, there is something else than working for mere material profit: The 'legacy', and best operating system the world has ever seen. But, it would be nessesary to sell the product, and that has always been the difficult part. Should the choices than be to get commercial? I think not in the way other companies do, but making the difference... Strategies should be developed to restrict 'the plans' from the world as long as possible. If the majority of the shares is in 'good' hands, bad decisions can be opposed. (a possibility to discuss, at least) -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Gerald Pfeifer schreef:

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Oddball wrote:

...

Best option was finding a biljonair who wants to 'own' his own software company, loves to pay all the bills, and who gives all that software away for free, without stressing up all the employees, who work for free, because they are 'involved', and don't know what they should do with their time, except creating the 'newest' software.

In what way is this realistic?

No, it's not.

And I fail to see how that would bring us (openSUSE) independence, which is what this thread is about.

Gerald

Maybe you should read the entire post? -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

El 08/06/10 09:44, Trifle Menot escribió:

To get significant sponsorship from other corporate players, opensuse needs independence from Novell. The Novell/Microsoft relationship is repulsive to other players.

Did you know that other big players, are in one way or another associated with MS anyway ? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2010-06-08 at 13:20 +0000, Trifle Menot wrote:

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 14:32:32 +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Novell is a public traded company and it received an unfriendly offer for buy- out that was rejected. Let's not speculate what will or could happen but instead look where we want openSUSE to go.

* Own bugzilla: Does it make sense to have a separate bugzilla that we need to administrate as part of the project? For me right now the benefits of using the Novell bugzilla outweight the limitations we have. My main concerns with moving bugzillas are: - engineers will hate to have to look into another bugzilla. So, Novell engineers will look first for enterprise bugs into the Novell ones and then later into the openSUSE one.

Yes that's a downside. But having opensuse bugzilla relying on Novell's login infrastructure is an impediment to independence. When Novell "goes away" you have a new problem to cope with. I think that's only a matter of time.

You're assuming that when Novell gets bought, its present state will go away. We have no idea of this as we don't even know who will buy Novell. This is just pure wild speculation and the last thing we need right now.

...

What do you understand with full independence?

Like debian. They rely on corporate donations to provide their mirror and download infrastructure.

...

IMO "independend from Novell" is the wrong question. I'd like to see Novell as main sponsor (it hosts lots more than bugzilla in our datacenter, nearly the whole opensuse.org infrastructure) and treated as such - but not as dictator that everybody bows in front of and gets scared by it.

It does not worry me that corporate might act like a dictator. But I believe it's only a matter of time before Novell "goes away" and morphs into something else. Best to plan for that now and anticipate how to keep opensuse alive.

I've heard the "goes away" line so many times in the last 10 years that I've learned to just phase it out of my mind.

Under the present arrangement, opensuse is like a fetus. If the mother dies, the baby dies with it. opensuse needs to be born and get its own life.

Where have you been lately? The Community already has significant influence on the Project as it stands. It was the community that requested an extension of KDE 3.5 and got it. It was the community that took over the leads on various projects within the openSUSE Community. Novell has invested heavily in building community independence with its Booster team. KDE and GNOME are now largely packaged by community members. The openSUSE Board is an elected body of the Community, and has added an additional seat to reduce Novell's power on the board. Teams are being led by openSUSE community members. When I work, I often remind myself of what fellow board member Henne Vogelsang mentioned at last year's openSUSE Conference. "Novell wants the community to claim openSUSE." And Henne constantly reminds the community that if you want something done, JUST DO IT! We can go on and on and on about independence and Novell's powerful hold (which I don't believe is true), but the most important question remains: If Novell and openSUSE broke off ties today, what would we do? Have we done enough to step up as a Community to manage and influence openSUSE? Are we prepared for the kind of independence you're advocating? You say its time for openSUSE to not be a fetus and be born. I say its time for us to move into adolescence. We were already born a few years ago. Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member

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On Tuesday 08 June 2010 15:52:22 Trifle Menot wrote:

On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 08:41:18 -0500, "Bryen M. Yunashko"

wrote:

...

You say its time for openSUSE to not be a fetus and be born. I say its time for us to move into adolescence. We were already born a few years ago.

If Novell pulls the power plug, your project infrastructure immediately collapses. The "community" is not strong enough to step in and turn the power back on. As long as that's true, you're still a fetus.

Trifle, Novell will not pull the power plug immediately at all. So, let's concentrate on what makes sense *today* and care about other scenarios if they arise. And if they arise we need a strong community to continue. So, let's get back to the point I made: Are we a strong community? If not, what will we do to become one? Where will you get involved?

To attract other corporate players, opensuse needs a life, independent from Novell.

We do have already other corporate sponsors and a foundation will enable us to get more. I think that's the right focus in this area, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Le 08/06/2010 16:17, Trifle Menot a écrit :

I won't, until opensuse is fully independent from Novell.

are *you* fully independant of anything like your employer, your governent, including Microsoft? (like anybody else, nothing personal) and for sponsors, looks at the bottom of the page http://www.opensuse.org/en/ jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2010-06-08 at 15:12 +0000, Trifle Menot wrote:

...

and for sponsors, looks at the bottom of the page

...

http://www.opensuse.org/en/

AMD and a few Germans. Greater independence would attract more.

As you have obviously studied this matter quite closely, we welcome your efforts to solicit sponsors to our Project. We look forward to hearing the feedback reports directly from the potential sponsors on their reasons for/against sponsorship. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/8 Trifle Menot :

I won't, until opensuse is fully independent from Novell.

Well, this means that your contribution won't come anytime soon. But how do you think to actually influence the future of openSUSE? Sitting and waiting?

...

We do have already other corporate sponsors

I was not aware of that. Who are they?

This indicates you never carefully took the openSUSE wiki, because the sponsors logos are clearly shown there. Best, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 21:22:54 +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

On Tuesday 08 June 2010 16:17:05 Trifle Menot wrote:

...

I won't, until opensuse is fully independent from Novell.

Ok, then it does not make sense for me to engage in a discussion with you and I wonder what you want on this mailing list besides trolling.

Plonk

Like I told Bryen, you need to listen to opinions that originate outside your clique. And if your narrow minded thinking represents the project, a paid clique is all it will ever be. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/8 Per Jessen :

Well AJ, I still don't know which place you occupy in the organigramm (if any) but that "Plonk" didn't earn you a lot of credits.

This has to be a joke, I hope, really. It doesn't take a lot to understand AJ's role at Novell, just use Google. This said, what should AJ do? Should he accept the non-constructive criticism of someone that comes saying we should be absolutely independent from Novell just because: - He does not like Novell - Novell signed a deal with Microsoft (seems to be the reason of the end of the world...) - One day, maybe, Novell could not support the project anymore (the same thing could be said of all the projects backed by companies: fedora, ubuntu, mandriva, openoffice, mysql, ...) ? The last point might be valuable, but the way he puts things makes his point invalid. He suggested to completely change the nature of the project, in a manner that is not realistic and probably not even interesting for the openSUSE community. The need for more independence has been clear for a while, and both Novell and the openSUSE board have been working to that trying to set up the openSUSE foundation. What is not clear is the request of being completely independent from Novell, as if Novell were the absolute evil. Until today, if you are using openSUSE, you can say thank you to Novell, which surely made mistakes as all of us, but also took almost all the effort and the risk of developing openSUSE. I honestly did not see an army of volunteers when the community was looking for them, and it is a bit childish to claim "it's due to the deal", because if a contributor is really motivated to do something, he tries to understand before judging, as we did. About credit, I don't think AJ's merits are under discussion here, and in a moderated environment this discussion would have ended long before this. Who loses credit is who talks about the project without even knowing the basics, without having an idea of things that have been under his eyes for years (see sponsorship, to cite a simple example), and then suggests changes that he might like, but would simply risk to compromise the project much more than the potential risks he is talking about. Best, A -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 08 June 2010 22:06:28 Per Jessen wrote:

Well AJ, I still don't know which place you occupy in the organigramm (if any) but that "Plonk" didn't earn you a lot of credits.

It did with me, I laughed, out loud. I see a 20 mail thread with nothing but trolling after his first one or two posts. I wonder if I would always be so reserved to simply plonk people. Discussion is one thing, repeating your troll position over and over and over is quite something else. And the original poster in my opinion definitely falls under the something else category. There's a reason that the well known phrase "don't feed the trolls" exists. If you don't give him the attention he seems to be craving, he will go away. Cheers the noo, Graham -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/8 Trifle Menot :

If Novell pulls the power plug, your project infrastructure immediately collapses.  The "community" is not strong enough to step in and turn the power back on.  As long as that's true, you're still a fetus.

Why should Novell "pull the power plug"? If you read the last financial reports of Novell, SUSE Linux is one of their strong points, and it's not that SUSE Linux Enterprise comes out from nowhere thanks to some magic. It is based on openSUSE, and I feel free to believe openSUSE has a nice role in making SLE better, with a wider and free testing base. With all the criticism I had for Novell, and sometime I still have about some aspect, I have to say they tried hard to make openSUSE more open, sometime it worked, sometime it did not, but the effort was more on their side than on the community side. Novell, in spite of all the noise and the attacks, continued supporting open source project more than many others who talks with a loud voice and judge all the time. I'm clearly not going to say everything has been perfect, but Novell surely deserves a bit more respect, instead of being considered only the company that "could unplug the power cord", because until now it has been the company who has kept that power cord plugged in, while facing a lot of hostility from many parts. You say the community is not strong enough. True or not, Novell has a limited role in changing this, and surely is a significant part of the community with its contributions. The community can become stronger if external people contributes and keeps contributing. P.S. We had so many discussions about the Novell/Microsoft deal that ended up nowhere already. It is a fact that the deal was not the disaster someone was foreseeing. Let's move on and talk of the topics of actual interest for openSUSE. Thanks. :-) Best, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

As long as opensuse is a child of Novell, the politics of the deal will impede the growth of opensuse. Independence is necessary for attaining maturity.

This clearly shows you didn't understand the deal itself, what came out of it and quite some other things. I still remember big statements about the deal and its consequence (a big and famous Linux-only company said it would have meant the end of Novell in one year, to cite one example). The reality is that all the negative predictions about the deal were, considering today's reality, wrong. There are many open source projects that are not independent from other companies. Fedora depends on Red Hat, Ubuntu depends on Canonical, and so on. Depending on Novell, or on other companies is exactly the same. It's not the deal to make any difference. Other companies signed similar deals, maybe better masked, but substantially similar, and the fact there is a lot of noise only around Novell should make you think a bit more about the reasons of why this happened. If you know someone with the financial resources Novell is investing in Linux and openSUSE, and with a lot of desire to sponsor openSUSE, feel free to tell us however ;-) Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/8 Trifle Menot :

...

If you know someone with the financial resources Novell is investing in Linux and openSUSE, and with a lot of desire to sponsor openSUSE, feel free to tell us however ;-)

What I'm telling you is that no one ever will, as long as Novell pays for the power.

You have been proven wrong already. The only reason I can see why sponsors do not contribute is fiscal, since Novell is a company, and the contribution would not be subject to special fiscal treatments. This hopefully will be fixed once the foundation is in place, being it a non-profit organization. This reason is however very far from having Novell involved or from the existence of the Novell/Microsoft deal, which clearly is a point you are misusing to support your ideas.

Debian exists without a primary sponsor. Maybe that leap is too big for opensuse to make. But ask yourselves why.

I don't think openSUSE aims to be as Debian. The goals of the project are different, as well as the target. These differences are part of the reason why I use openSUSE and not Debian. I see a distribution backed by a company with a strong expertise in the field as an advantage, not as a problem. It has direct consequences on the quality, the usability, the possibility of obtaining commercial support, and, in the end, of sustainability of the project itself. Best, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hi Cristian :) Whoever uses the deal as an explanation for something should first look at what happened with come criticism. The deal in itself is a very standard form of cooperation between companies with similar interests. The noise was not caused by Novell and by Microsoft, but by the Linux community itself. The same Linux community that, on one hand claims to be open minded, but on the other hand is unable to accept this kind of cooperation. They might like MS or not, but they should judge on what the deal lead to, and not on opinions and potential risks. I think It did not happen, in part because many did not understand the terms of the deal, and in part because someone in the community used it as to support his own ideas and goals. If there is any damage caused by the deal to Linux, and I still have to see where this damage is, I would start looking for the responsible in the community, beginning with those that made a lot to disparage who is actually trying to work and do something to improve Linux for its users. Just my two cents, of course :) Best, A. 2010/6/8 Cristian Rodríguez :

El 08/06/10 14:06, Alberto Passalacqua escribió:

...

Which clearly is a point you are misusing to support your ideas.

got the point Alberto, it is a a "fallacy of irrelevance". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-- Alberto Passalacqua -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/8 Malcolm :

Second please remove the commercial spam from your signature.

It might be added by his provider automatically. So please be patient :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 8 June 2010 21:00, Trifle Menot wrote:

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 13:17:22 -0500, Malcolm wrote:

...

I have to ask do you actually use openSUSE or linux derivatives? Second please remove the commercial spam from your signature.

If you read all my messages you would know the answer.  Why should the sig trouble anyone.  You're whining about a one line sig that mentions a free email service?  What is your problem?

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Because I like to be optimistic... I think that this thread is really interesting. At least, our community is really living its own life. And that's prettynice :-) Greetings, Agemen. -- OrbisGIS developer. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:15:15 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

If you want to have openSUSE "independent", then the first step is to actually contribute so that openSUSE can live without Novell resources. I understand that you don't want to contribute until it's independent, but I hope you realize that it's a chicken and egg problem, in that case.

You want me to donate. But I don't have any money, and you won't pay me. Since Novell has the money, let them grow the chicken. I want to see a full grown chicken first.

The Foundation the board is working on would hopefully help people see that this is something that is getting worked on, and that we (openSUSE community) care about.

That's nice, but what goals are defined? I gather from this thread they are somewhat vague. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 16:45:23 -0500, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

2010/6/8 Trifle Menot :

...

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:15:15 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

You want me to donate.  But I don't have any money, and you won't pay me.  Since Novell has the money, let them grow the chicken.  I want to see a full grown chicken first.

It's not that Debian, your project taken as reference, was created with this approach. There are many ways to sponsor a project, without donating a cent. If you just want to sponsor openSUSE, you can take part to the community, and help here and there, according to your knowledge and time, and in the meanwhile you also know new people and have fun. If there are enough external contributors, the project is automatically more independent. This clearly does not solve the problem at the infrastructure level, but it is a step.

However, I guess it's time to stop taking part to this thread. It is quite clear nothing will come out of it.

Then why did you reply? "Listen up, I'm saying the last word now ..." -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:52:55 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

It's not about the money. It's about time. You're taking the Debian example, and I'll point out that nearly none of the more than 1000 Debian Developers are paid to work on Debian.

That's not strictly true. Some of them are paid to work on Ubuntu, and that work filters back to Debian. So indirectly, some of them are paid.

Now, if you're asking what are the goals of the openSUSE project, then that's what the Strategy team is working on right now. They should have something ready soon :-)

Of course, if you have other ideas of goals, please share them.

Some people think trolls are anyone who says anything they don't like. There may be a clinical term for that. If I can't argue without being called a troll, then it's not a community, it's a clique. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 00:13:06 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

...

Of course, if you have other ideas of goals, please share them.

Some people think trolls are anyone who says anything they don't like. There may be a clinical term for that. If I can't argue without being called a troll, then it's not a community, it's a clique.

I never implied you were trolling in the text you're quoting (nor in my replies to you). I'd appreciate if you could avoid putting words in my mouth.

Vincent, I wasn't talking about you. The accusation was made by others, who seem to feel they represent the "community." I mentioned it because you invited me to share my ideas of goals. Which I already did, and got accused of trolling for it. A troll doesn't know when to stop. I do. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 09/06/2010 11:12, Oddball a écrit :

This is a fact, not to be denied...

how ridiculous... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Oddball schreef:

jdd schreef:

...

Le 09/06/2010 11:12, Oddball a écrit :

...

This is a fact, not to be denied...

how ridiculous...

jdd

You think so? And that is why you don't react on the questions asked?

It is also a fact that the Dutch were slavetraders...which cannot be denied. You would find that rediculous too? What i am trying to say is that the facts have to be accepted, before being able to change the consequences... Same as with elections, if many people choose a certain party, that party will grow. If people decide to give their vote to another party, the previous one will shrink... That is what i mean by 'the curse' and its consequences, not to be denied, to be able to crawl from underneath its consequences... Fact is that oS has been able to stand, in reduced form, against collapsing opinion. So, it has managed to regain selfconsiousness, and being aware of the qualities and nessesity to exist. Eneveteble will be, as allready is in progress, a selfsustaining basis to keep the legacy safe: The Foundation. Because developing software is more than making bucks (and bugs), and can be a benefit to us all. Choices are offcourse free to buy 'dictated' software, so the hardware can be sold. But now hardware has to become more 'open' also, else it won't be sold. People will buy whatever is useble, if they can afford it, in a changing market. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Bryen M. Yunashko schreef:

On Wed, 2010-06-09 at 11:12 +0200, Oddball wrote:

...

Being independent does not mean Novell cannot sponsor oS, or lets it use the infrastructure...

In fact, that's where we are, as AJ pointed out. Novell has moved from being a "controller" of openSUSE to being a partner/sponsor of openSUSE. But apparently, some people just can't see past that.

...

What of becoming a parter from Novell? If Novell is for sale, can the community buy it?

Sure. Last time I checked, the Novell price tag was around $2.5 Billion. Pocket change for us in the community! :-)

Lol... How about shares, not sold on the open market, representing certain 'value'? Meaning shares that can be bought if 'part of the community'?

...

What is it oS needs, besides the infrastructure and a lot of money?

Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.

Wher can i become aware of these 'various tasks'?

...

Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member

-- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Administrator schreef:

...

...

Being independent does not mean Novell cannot sponsor oS,

or lets it

...

use the infrastructure...

In fact, that's where we are, as AJ pointed out. Novell has moved from being a "controller" of openSUSE to being a partner/sponsor of openSUSE. But apparently, some people just can't see past that.

There's no such thing as independence, just diferent varietes of dependence. We can choose on whom we are dependent, and for what, and how closely "bound" we are. We can't choose to not be dependent on anybody unless we choose to go live in the woods, and grow / kill our own food (dependent on the continuing natural environment and a legal system to prevent our murder) and make all our own clothes and tools (dependent upon our forebears for education).

Sure, you are right about that. In the universe all things and not things, are dependable upon one another, being aware of that fact or not.... I think however, to define independent in this case as 'unit', container, like the Foundation, which will be the legal person openSUSE. To be seen for everybody as an 'Independant Body'.. In this foundation, all the members can and cannot do is written, as offcourse the Aim, and how to achieve this. The means choosen to be appropriet to achieve the goal(s). Protecting the goals from personal failures. This is the best decision i heard of lately, and deserves the utmost care, to get the realy nessesary words exactly on paper the way they should, as they become 'law'. (put as less restrictions to acting as possible here..)

Many would balk at dependence upon Microsoft, and I agree with that. I see no sign that either oS or Novell are dependent upon Microsoft, although there are direct and indirect relationships. oS is dependent upon Novell for the resources which have been described. This could be changed although no-one seems to have sufficient interest in finding an alternate onto whom we could switch our dependence. Why do so when there are other more important and interesting things to work on?

The more important and interesting things should be done from the right basis: The Foundation.

...

...

What is it oS needs, besides the infrastructure and a lot of money?

Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.

i.e. resources in different forms.

exactly, they can be attracted as soon as oS has become a legal Body. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 09, 2010 at 03:20:07PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:

...

Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.

Is there an "open positions" notice somewhere?

Not necessary, you are already accepted. Just login to: build.opensuse.org, features.opensuse.org, bugzilla.novell.com, forums.opensuse.org.... Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

On Wednesday 09 June 2010 15:23:31 Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

On Wed, Jun 09, 2010 at 03:20:07PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:

...

Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.

Is there an "open positions" notice somewhere?

Not necessary, you are already accepted.

Just login to:

build.opensuse.org, features.opensuse.org, bugzilla.novell.com, forums.opensuse.org....

Yeah that one as well - Per can help wherever he wants and ask for help here if needed.

I just think that list of bugs is too large for anybody as a start and agree with Per we should explain more what kind of involved is possible, e.g. regarding bugzilla: * screening of bugs * fixing bugs * cleaning up the queues

A while ago I subscribed to the 'community-screening' list (thinking it was bugzilla related), but I have not yet seen any traffic. Still, I think many would appreciate an explanation of what kind of involvement is possible and how it is done/organised/etc. (not just wrt bugzilla, but in general). /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

Check the ML opensuse-testing. They do regular testing for new milestones.

So do I and I am also subscribed to opensuse-testing - afaict, that list is primarily for announcements. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner wrote:

On Wed, Jun 09, 2010 at 03:20:07PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:

...

Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.

Is there an "open positions" notice somewhere?

Not necessary, you are already accepted.

Just login to:

build.opensuse.org, features.opensuse.org, bugzilla.novell.com, forums.opensuse.org....

Haha, good one! (although I'm not quite sure how to take the lead on bugzilla.novell.com :-) ) /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

Per,

There would be plenty of things you can do on Bugzilla, which would not even require coding, or anything. Like: confirm bugs, look if you have all the information in a bug to be able to reproduce it.

Hi Dominique that's what I do for the stuff I report, and when I come across bugs I also recognize. If I can reproduce, I always provide the info. Are you also talking about others peoples bugs here?

Very often this is the lengthiest process for the person that want to fix a bug: chasing all the information to be able to reproduce the problem (which very often is a first step to the idea for the solution).

Or often a bug remains open during Factory development. As packages get updated, the bugs get 'outdated' and fix themselves. Work together with the reporters and self-testing to check if bugs are still an issue in latest snapshots.

Isn't that the normal approach? /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le mercredi 09 juin 2010, à 15:20 +0200, Per Jessen a écrit :

Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:

...

Contributions! Contributions! Contributions! Doesn't really matter if we have money and infrastructure if we don't have people stepping up to take the lead on various tasks.

Is there an "open positions" notice somewhere?

FWIW, some teams regularly post requests for help on their mailing list. I know it's happening for GNOME, at least :-) Also, if there's an area you're interested in, a good first step is to contact the people already working on this to see if there's anything you can help with. (and yes, we should document that better -- but it's also information that gets out-of-date quickly, so it's a lot of work) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010, Oddball wrote:

The only player on the market, capable to defeat M$, was bought and sold... Foundations of open source shaken.... If you cann't beat them, buy them....

Novell still is an independent corporation, its stock being publicly traded as others have pointed out). And you'll have to ask Steve Ballmer, but I would be rather surprised if Novell or openSUSE are on his top three list of concerns or have ever been.

And i donot know, if Windows 7 is born out of that deal, but it is the best OS build by MS until now.

This is completely unfounded. In fact, it is outright silly.

What of becoming a parter from Novell?

I'd appreciate openSUSE growing into such a rule, the keyword being "growing".

If Novell is for sale, can the community buy it?

The community just needs Some two, three million €. Stock ticker is NOVL.

What is it oS needs, besides the infrastructure and a lot of money?

Contributors. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer gp@novell.com | SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management | HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances | GF Markus Rex

Am Dienstag, 8. Juni 2010, 15:52:22 schrieb Trifle Menot:

On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 08:41:18 -0500, "Bryen M. Yunashko"

wrote:

...

You say its time for openSUSE to not be a fetus and be born. I say its time for us to move into adolescence. We were already born a few years ago.

If Novell pulls the power plug, your project infrastructure immediately collapses. The "community" is not strong enough to step in and turn the power back on. As long as that's true, you're still a fetus.

To attract other corporate players, opensuse needs a life, independent from Novell.

It's not like openSUSE is the only community project heavyly dependent on a big sponsor... But whatever happens to Novell, the SUSE branch afaik is profitable and openSUSE certainly is part of that success, so it's highly unlikely that all sponsorship will be lost in a day like a pulled power plug. Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

I am pretty

...sure Novell won't be able to just take the investment we currently put into technical openSUSE infrastructure, convert it into currency, and transfer it to the donation. (Plus, taxes, markups and such, it likely would not even be sufficient, either.) Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer gp@novell.com | SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management | HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances | GF Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 19:31:10 +0100 (BST), Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Trifle Menot wrote:

...

If Novell pulls the power plug, your project infrastructure immediately collapses. The "community" is not strong enough to step in and turn the power back on. As long as that's true, you're still a fetus.

Is this different for Fedora or Ubuntu? I am not saying this cannot or should not be changed, the question is, what is the priority (and who is going to bear the cost)?

Depends on your point of view. Novell developers earning nice salaries are in a comfort zone where risk poses a threat to their paycheck. But outsiders with little or nothing to lose, may have different ideas about goals. You can't beat the market leader by working in a comfort zone. You must take bold risks to grow grassroots support of opensuse. You need a much larger population of opensuse users. And that won't happen until Novell devs shed their clique mentality and reach outside their comfort zone. On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 21:23:58 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:

Tirsdag den 8. juni 2010 14:21:05 skrev Trifle Menot:

...

I hear rumors Novell is for sale. Will opensuse get its own bugzilla independent from Novell? And what else needs to be done for opensuse to gain full independence?

Of course it would be desirable to have some form of "guarantee" that openSUSE won't just go away. For Ubuntu this sense of security was achieved by Mark Shuttleworth putting 20 million USD in a foundation. Maybe it would be worth it for Novell to consider doing something similar when/if an openSUSE foundation is formed.

Yes but Mark doesn't need board approval, he has his own money to spend. It's different for a corporation, whose prime directive is profit. How can they justify it to shareholders?

There has been some mention of the other sponsors, but open-slx wasn't mentioned. Personally I find what open-slx are doing extremely interesting - since they are actually trying to monetize openSUSE. Something Novell never wanted to do, since Novell is greatly (and mistakenly so) underestimating the relevance of the consumer market. Open-slx have been hiring some people, and hopefully they'll be succesful and grow more influential - and hopefully other companies will copy this model and try to monetize openSUSE too.

Regarding the MS deal. There can be no doubt that it was extremely damaging to openSUSE in terms of PR - and to some extent continues to be so even now, and probably will be for years to come. That is true regardless of whether the deal itself was "evil" or not - and is just something we have to live with. I'm not sure openSUSE being formally independent would stop Novell actions from affecting the way people perceive openSUSE.

Novell gave opensuse a bad reputation. A new corporate name may help change market perceptions. It seems likely that will happen soon. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 09/06/10 16:11, Trifle Menot escribió:

...

Depends on your point of view. Novell developers earning nice salaries are in a comfort zone

LOL, change that from confort zone to the battlefield ;)

...

Yes but Mark doesn't need board approval, he has his own money to spend. It's different for a corporation, whose prime directive is profit. How can they justify it to shareholders?

Do you sincerely believe that Canonical does it to gain nothing ? a millonarie putting USD $20M to gain absolutely nothing ?

Certainly. He also paid USD20million for a ride on the Soyuz - just for the experience. You have to inform yourself better. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

2010/6/9 Per Jessen :

...

...

Do you sincerely believe that Canonical does it to gain nothing ? a millonarie putting USD $20M to gain absolutely nothing ?

Certainly.  He also paid USD20million for a ride on the Soyuz - just for the experience.  You have to inform yourself better.

Who should read more and be better informed is you,

Alberto, there is no need to be so condescending, it doesn't suit you. Besides, I was only quoting Cristian Rodríguez, maybe you missed that subtlety.

especially since you have been involved in this community for long time (at least I've seen your name around for a while).

Yep, I've been around for a while. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 16:22:35 -0400, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 09/06/10 16:11, Trifle Menot escribió:

...

Novell gave opensuse a bad reputation.

the talibans of free software (no offense to Osama :D) are responsible of making such a big scandal about it. Nothing of their conspirancy theories resulted to be true.

The Novell copyright battle against SCO has helped to improve public opinion of Novell. But that may become moot when the business changes hands, especially if the new owner drops the Novell name. I would. It will be interesting to see who bids the highest to get Novell and their copyrights. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 16:53:27 -0400, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 09/06/10 16:41, Trifle Menot escribió:

...

It will be interesting to see who bids the highest to get Novell and their copyrights.

what has "Novell Copyrights" (?) to do with openSUSE in your opinion ?

Legally, very little. But the public does not understand that. The battle for public opinion and market share involves myth, rumor, and propaganda. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez schreef:

El 09/06/10 16:11, Trifle Menot escribió:

...

Depends on your point of view. Novell developers earning nice salaries are in a comfort zone

LOL, change that from confort zone to the battlefield ;)

lol.

...

Yes but Mark doesn't need board approval, he has his own money to spend. It's different for a corporation, whose prime directive is profit. How can they justify it to shareholders?

Do you sincerely believe that Canonical does it to gain nothing ? a millonarie putting USD $20M to gain absolutely nothing ?

eventualy, is the key word here..

...

Novell gave opensuse a bad reputation.

No, the talibans of free software (no offense to Osama :D) are responsible of making such a big scandal about it.

Nothing of their conspirancy theories resulted to be true.

If that was not the case, the situation would not be as it is now, correct. The hatred against M$ must have been bigger than assumed at the time.. But to turn all people that went away towards oS again is another point... -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd schreef:

Le 10/06/2010 09:27, Oddball a écrit :

...

But to turn all people that went away towards oS again is another point...

who knows howmany?? and do we want us again?

jdd

I don't know the guy/gal that knows how many exactly, but ubuntu sure took profit of it.. Personaly i think oS was, and can be the best distro on the market.. Personaly i think, i would want everybody back, and more, no, all of them, that have still not tasted oS... ;-) I was able to take a closer look at 11.3M7 on eeepc901 with 64GBSSD, and was amazed by the boot speed! If kernell can handle all X out here, oS realy makes a difference. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 15:42:22 -0500, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

2010/6/9 Trifle Menot :

...

You can't beat the market leader by working in a comfort zone. You must take bold risks to grow grassroots support of opensuse. You need a much larger population of opensuse users.  And that won't happen until Novell devs shed their clique mentality and reach outside their comfort zone.

That's in part true that you have to go out of the comfort zone, but I don't see how this is related to developers being well paid. Being well paid to do something you like seems to me the perfect deal, and I really prefer to see well paid developers, than developers that have to deal with economic difficulties and be split between open source contributions and their work. Novell allowed SUSE developers to do this, with some compromise of course, but that's clearly something acceptable in the big picture. Remember one thing that you are forgetting: openSUSE would not exist without Novell. It is Novell that opened the project, and made all what we are talking about possible.

...

Yes but Mark doesn't need board approval, he has his own money to spend. It's different for a corporation, whose prime directive is profit.  How can they justify it to shareholders?

Mark wants profit too. He says that clearly. He just invested waiting to have a return, and he also fixed a date for that.

...

Novell gave opensuse a bad reputation.  A new corporate name may help change market perceptions.  It seems likely that will happen soon.

Clearly we have different point of views. I think Novell made openSUSE possible, more open and accessible. Look at the facts for one minute instead than to the politics. Novell opened the whole SUSE, made YaST open source (it wasn't in SuSE), they offered the openSUSE buildservice to the community, opening it to all major distributions. They support, sometime alone, many open projects, and openSUSE has one of the best KDE and GNOME implementations of the Linux arena.

The bad reputation is not that bad. It is often due to what people reads on certain press, but when they know the community and try the distribution, they often change their mind, even in comparison to other more popular distributions (read ubuntu). I see that happen quite often.

What would be useful, is to stop considering Novell as a problem, and start looking at it as an advantage, because that's what it is. They surely made a lot of mistakes, especially at the beginning, but they also fixed many of them during these years. If you look at openSUSE today, you see a well built distribution, with a good user experience, a good hardware support, a cool look, and a friendly approach to Linux. I'm not saying it's perfect, and there surely is a lot of work to do, but it depends more on us (community) than on Novell.

To conclude, I think it is really unfair to look at Novell as a problem. There were communication problems at the beginning, there are different needs and perspectives, but it is clear things changed. Maybe the first required change in the community is to honestly acknowledge their merits, and then poke them when there is what we consider a problem.

I don't look at Novell as a problem. I think you are mistaking my arguments for an attack. I want Novell (and its successor) to grow and thrive. I want devs to earn nice salaries, so they can support their families while doing work they enjoy. But the reality is, if you're not growing, you're dying. You must take risks to compete with market leaders. If you don't, you will fall so far behind in terms of market share, that you can never catch up. And that will mean the eventual death of opensuse. Fully separating the opensuse infrastructure from the main sponsor is a risk. But I think it's the best way to attract new opensuse users and grow grassroots support of opensuse. If it works, the corporate sponsor will reap the rewards of improved public opinion and increasing market share. I think you must do it or die trying; if you don't try, you will surely die. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 01:47:04 +0200, Stephan Kleine wrote:

On Wednesday June 9 2010 22:56:55 Trifle Menot wrote:

...

I don't look at Novell as a problem. I think you are mistaking my arguments for an attack. I want Novell (and its successor) to grow and thrive. I want devs to earn nice salaries, so they can support their families while doing work they enjoy.

With all due respect but: 1. You said you wont contribute in any way as long as openSUSE "depends" on Novell in any way.

No, I said I want to see independent opensuse project infrastructure, like bugzilla. I don't care that paid Novell devs can influence the project with their opinions and work. I want Novell to show good faith by separating the project infrastructure. I think that's an important step.

2. You are arguing over and over that the patent deal between Novell and "M$" drives others aways.

That's not my focus. You're twisting my words.

So I guess it is fair to say that you see Novell as a problem.

No, but some people here are too sensitive, and take offense at the least thing.

...

But the reality is, if you're not growing, you're dying. You must take risks to compete with market leaders. If you don't, you will fall so far behind in terms of market share, that you can never catch up. And that will mean the eventual death of opensuse.

Well, how do you define "market leader"? In an enterprise field clearly Red Hat and Novell _are_ the "market leaders".

Ubuntu and Red Hat look like leaders to me.

...

Fully separating the opensuse infrastructure from the main sponsor is a risk. But I think it's the best way to attract new opensuse users and grow grassroots support of opensuse. If it works, the corporate sponsor will reap the rewards of improved public opinion and increasing market share.

Before you raise claims like that please answer some questions:

1. Who will pay the core devs working on it since the current "community" isn't able to do so?

Novell, or its buyer.

2. Who will pay for the basic infrastructure like OBS (since that will be the most costly) so development can go on as it does currently?

Novell, or its buyer. You are jumping to wrong conclusions about my intent.

Well, while the number of people assigned to work merely on openSUSE might be ridiculously small compared to the whole number of employees (11 if I'm not mistaken) openSUSE still profits from the others working on SLE (which certainly are quite some more).

Point being, me personally, I contribute to it because I consider it the best KDE distro available and it - now - gives me the tools to contribute by

1. Trolling IRC a bit. 2. Packaging stuff I find missing and updating others I find outdated (yes, I love OBS) 3. Testing it since that will be what I have to use.

Also I honestly don't see a reason why other corporations should be driven away from contributing by said "M$" Novell deal. IOW your whole rant against "get independent of Novell" is as ridiculous as if you would visit the Fedora

Again, you are jumping to wrong conclusions. I'm talking about opensuse project infrastructure. I'm not asking Novell people to go away.

mailing list and tell them to get independent of Red Hat. It is just a community distro that is the base for a corporate one. You have all the possibilities to enhance it or change its direction _if_ you contribute and have valid arguments but some silly rant while refusing to do anything "cause it is reigned by some evil overlord" is simply ridiculous.

Point being, until 1. You can come up with some reasonable idea how to pay core devs to work on it. 2. You tell us how to pay for the necessary infrastructure (e.g OBS). 3. _You_ start contributing instead of telling others what they should do. 4. You enlighten us how the relationship between Fedora and RHEL is different to openSUSE and SLE. 5. You provide some _proof_ of someone that got driven away by that "M$" deal - and no, some random joe sitting in his cellar doesn't count but we are talking about "corporate" sponsors who would be willing to invest more than just some 3-5 digits sum.

So, either surprise me or please simply cut it since that thread has run its course quite some time ago.

For sure you had valid arguments about the independence of Novell in case they were sold but that ongoing rant about some evil "M$" plots leads nowhere - or at least makes you look like something you prolly wont want.

I am not ranting about MS/Novell. Again you are twisting my words. You're not paying attention to what I say, you're listening to your own imagination. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Torsdag den 10. juni 2010 03:23:35 skrev Graham Anderson:

Ubuntu have quite a major sway on the newbie linux desktop market. Ubuntu on the server is not really a serious proposition for enterprise computing; for the same reason that Debian is not a serious proposition for enterprise computing.

I think Novell "strategists" feel the same way, but I believe it's a mistake. The enormous mindshare and hype that Ubuntu is getting in the home user market (virtually unopposed), will let them grow and over time gain larger inroads in the more profitable enterprise market too, and become a real competitor for Novell - despite having an inferior product. And while this is happening Novell are obsessing about Red Hat and resting on their laurels. Instead of managing openSUSE like a real product, they're treating it like a Fedora. The idea seems to be that techies, sysadmins and enthusiasts don't really care about polish, ease of use and stability. But that's wrong. My take has always been that with 5% more end user friendlyness, openSUSE would be 100% more successful in the home user market - and this would have a very positive spill-over effect on SLE sales - because sysadmins and IT-buyers are consumers too when they go home. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

C schreef:

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 10:39, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

My take has always been that with 5% more end user friendlyness, openSUSE would be 100% more successful in the home user market - and this would have a very positive spill-over effect on SLE sales - because sysadmins and IT-buyers are consumers too when they go home.

I agree 100%. All too often though people familiar with Linux and its inner workings fail to see that "just open a terminal and type (string of obscure text commands) to do X" is the wrong answer. I see this all the time on the various mailing lists. Heck, take a look at the documented "procedure" for making a bootable USB stick from the openSUSE DVD ISO, and compare it to the Ubuntu process (it's a menu entry choice). We constantly seem recoil from the user "friendlyness" in favor of "the way we've always done it".

That said, there are parts about openSUSE that shine in terms of user friendlyness... YaST for example. It has its warts, but overall it's a great tool.

C.

Both posts, points well seen.. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Torsdag den 10. juni 2010 11:07:12 skrev Anshul Jain:

I had standardized my test platforms for manufacturing long time ago on Mandriva 2008.1 and openSUSE 11.0/11.1. Now to my dismay, I find the futures of Mandriva and Novell murky and unclear at best.

Well. Don't get too desperate because of some random rumours. It's still doubtful that anything will happen - and _if_ something does happen, it's most likely that Mandriva and openSUSE would continue more or less in their present forms, with more or less the same people - even if there were different owners. There have been rumours about RH takeovers before too. Maybe I should go plant some rumours about Hedgefunds wanting to buy Canonical - but I guess noone would believe it ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 10 June 2010 04:29:55 Martin Schlander wrote:

Maybe I should go plant some rumours about Hedgefunds wanting to buy Canonical - but I guess noone would believe it ;-)

Hedgefund idea is already used. Be original, like there are rumors that some big computer builder is considering to have own Linux :) -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 10:39:50 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:

The enormous mindshare and hype that Ubuntu is getting in the home user market (virtually unopposed), will let them grow and over time gain larger inroads in the more profitable enterprise market too, and become a real competitor for Novell - despite having an inferior product.

Publicity. Exactly.

And while this is happening Novell are obsessing about Red Hat and resting on their laurels. Instead of managing openSUSE like a real product, they're treating it like a Fedora.

The idea seems to be that techies, sysadmins and enthusiasts don't really care about polish, ease of use and stability. But that's wrong.

My take has always been that with 5% more end user friendlyness, openSUSE would be 100% more successful in the home user market - and this would have a very positive spill-over effect on SLE sales - because sysadmins and IT-buyers are consumers too when they go home.

They also need more polish before release. They treat opensuse as a preview of SLE, and the users of opensuse as lab rats. That attitude produces sloppy releases with too many annoying bugs. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Oddball schreef:

Trifle Menot schreef:

...

They also need more polish before release. They treat opensuse as a preview of SLE, and the users of opensuse as lab rats. That attitude produces sloppy releases with too many annoying bugs.

You mean the tight schedule every release is kept on? Only the most important bugs get squashed that way? So oS would never be able to earn a nickle herself? And would be dependable upon 'N' for all eternity? Just packed in nice words, so nobody notices? Keep the pressure on the kettle so nobody has time to complain? Pay the main programmers so they keep their mouth shut? oS under the evil spell of 'N'?

Is it that obvious? Sure at least it is very stupid to 'handle' intelligent people that way..... Because that way you put the horse behind the wagon....

Or you are hired by the competition?...lol. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Trifle Menot schreef:

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:58:00 +0200, Oddball wrote:

...

Trifle Menot schreef:

...

They also need more polish before release. They treat opensuse as a preview of SLE, and the users of opensuse as lab rats. That attitude produces sloppy releases with too many annoying bugs.

...

You mean the tight schedule every release is kept on?

A schedule does not guarantee a good release. They push it out the door on schedule, sloppy or not.

They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out. They need to rethink the process, and improve it.

Absolutely, many 'contributors' said the same, but until now it has lead only to a system without X, broken on all sides, instead of taken serious.. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander schreef:

Torsdag den 10. juni 2010 14:13:03 skrev Trifle Menot:

...

They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out. They need to rethink the process, and improve it.

So you do want openSUSE to become Debian? ;-)

Cuz Fedora and Ubuntu certainly are not reluctant to adopt new experimental technologies.

Well, there is something as 'overclocking', but this should be done best when stable... Too many major changes at once are very difficult to control. What causes what exactly? On the other hand, which goals are set: only test and try-out, or create a release that is usefull? -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:35:53 +0000, Trifle Menot wrote:

But some of us, hoping to use opensuse on servers, are frustrated by too many bugs.

And that reminds me of my original question about "novell" bugzilla. The OBS had the lofty, universal goal of building other distros besides opensuse. IOW, a build service for the "world." I admire big thinking, even if the goals are not fully met. So why not have a bug tracker for the world too. Then SLE can track their own bugs as a subproject within the independent, opensuse "world." Think big! -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 10:15:55 -0400, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 10/06/10 08:48, Trifle Menot escribió:

...

So why not have a bug tracker for the world too. Then SLE can track their own bugs as a subproject within the independent, opensuse "world."

Problem is that bugs are shared between the two worlds, because *surprise* SLE is based in openSUSE.

Well then, I guess you need a better bug tracking system. One that share bugs between subprojects. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 10 June 2010 08:13:03 Trifle Menot wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:58:00 +0200, Oddball wrote:

...

Trifle Menot schreef:

...

They also need more polish before release. They treat opensuse as a preview of SLE, and the users of opensuse as lab rats. That attitude produces sloppy releases with too many annoying bugs.

You mean the tight schedule every release is kept on?

A schedule does not guarantee a good release. They push it out the door on schedule, sloppy or not.

They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out. They need to rethink the process, and improve it.

I have tried to refrain from joining this bru-ha-ha but this is the first thing I've really read from you that actually seems to belong in the discussion about PROJECTs and related to strategy that can be effected by the community. To wit: "They need to rethink the process and improve it." To some degree, you are correct in your observation that "They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out." I'm not sure what the biggest problem is: Too many changes, or the bug handling procedures (Bugzilla, et al). I do think this is a valid area of discussion, albeit, not in *THIS* thread, but I do think it should be a PRIMARY point of discussion as strategy for the future is developed. Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 20:18:42 +0530, Anshul Jain wrote:

I'm sure some of these suggestions will be flamed...but I'd appreciate if this not be taken as criticism, but as suggestions to greater improve the distro that we all like.

Good suggestions. Some people hold back, for fear of being flamed, or worse, called a "troll." Mommy, he called me a TROLL! Heh. Let it rip. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

I think your problems might drown in this thread, it's too unspecific and widespread, maybe think about adressing these seperatly, as most have been already discussed at one point or another I'll try to give an overview. Also please don't create general multiple issues threads, it's hard to track the different points, especially when it touches vastly different topics Am Donnerstag, 10. Juni 2010, 16:48:42 schrieb Anshul Jain:

Couple of my observations on how we as a community can make openSUSE better:- (Disclaimer: This is for the normal user and not the expert)

1. Simplify zypper: The whole upgrading procedure where patches and packages are treated separately have to be streamlined. It is a tad confusing for the normal user. Mandriva provides a very elegant and neat way to upgrade the system through their mdkonline applet. Something we should look at as well

I don't even know this patches system, but the zypper guys are very responsive, so please ping them on either factory or even better their lst

2. Package Management through YaST: The Qt version rocks, but the GNOME version simply is sucks.

Came up often, the gtk and qt guys have different ideas about a good interface, just judging one as bad and the other as good won't improve either, maybe suggest making it easy to choose (don't know if that's possible)

3. Better bootsplash experience by using Plymouth

Discussed and mainly discarded by coolo, we try booting as fast as possible, even if opensuse isn't really fast here, but work goes into that topic

4. Simplify the repository structure. There are too many confusing ones, Factory, STABLE, UNSTABLE etc...the KDE guys are working on simplifying it...I guess. GNOME needs simplification.

This is where opensuse lacks imho, mighty obs but the regular user keeps butchering his repo list, kde team often tried getting it right and it's the next round currently, if you want to start a general initiative feel free to do so, but you better be prepared ;-) btw, I am speaking out of a kde point of view, I'd be interested in this topic in general how the other teams are doing here that also track different releases concurrently

Many mistake Ubuntu to have the best user experience distro....but that tag actually belongs to Mandriva, which still has managed to keep itself alive (I don't know how longer though). Some of their tools are very good like msec (Mandriva Security), menu layout for GNOME and KDE which is unique and very consistent. We could take some cues from there and add the requisite polish on top of it.

I think oS has the best user experience ;-) But I have a lot of respect for the polish Mandriva puts in that and I think Mandriva and openSUSE are catering for the same user base here.

I'm sure some of these suggestions will be flamed...but I'd appreciate if this not be taken as criticism, but as suggestions to greater improve the distro that we all like.

Why should you, I dare to say even Trifle Menot didn't get flamed for his not very specific topics.

-Anshul

Cheers! Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Anshul Jain wrote:

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Richard Creighton wrote:

...

On Thursday 10 June 2010 08:13:03 Trifle Menot wrote:

...

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:58:00 +0200, Oddball wrote:

...

Trifle Menot schreef:

...

They also need more polish before release.  They treat opensuse as a preview of SLE, and the users of opensuse as lab rats.  That attitude produces sloppy releases with too many annoying bugs.

You mean the tight schedule every release is kept on?

A schedule does not guarantee a good release.  They push it out the door on schedule, sloppy or not.

They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out.  They need to rethink the process, and improve it.

I have tried to refrain from joining this bru-ha-ha but this is the first thing I've really read from you that actually seems to belong in the discussion about PROJECTs and related to strategy that can be effected by the community.

To wit:  "They need to rethink the process and improve it."

To some degree, you are correct in your observation that "They cram in so many changes between releases, they don't have enough time to sort things out."

I'm not sure what the biggest problem is:  Too many changes, or the bug handling procedures (Bugzilla, et al).  I do think this is a valid area of discussion, albeit, not in *THIS* thread, but I do think it should be a PRIMARY point of discussion as strategy for the future is developed.

Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Couple of my observations on how we as a community can make openSUSE better:- (Disclaimer: This is for the normal user and not the expert)

1. Simplify zypper: The whole upgrading procedure where patches and packages are treated separately have to be streamlined. It is a tad confusing for the normal user. Mandriva provides a very elegant and neat way to upgrade the system through their mdkonline applet. Something we should look at as well

If you're only talking about distribution upgrade, have you looked at wagon? (The gui tool to do a "zypper dup".) http://en.opensuse.org/Wagon (I wrote most of that by that page, so extra detail / updates appreciated. I for one think there are still too many preliminary steps in those instructions before calling wagon, but as far as I know they are all still required. I would like to see a lot of the prelim steps sucked into Wagon and Wagon become the standard end-user distribution upgrade tool.) It was usable for 11.1 => 11.2 upgrades, but I haven't kept up with changes to it in the last year or so. I hate to say I haven't tried it for 11.2 => factory. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/10 Trifle Menot :

Some people seem to misunderstand my intentions.  I'm not advocating against Novell, or paid devs.  The more the merrier.  But Novell can't afford to hire them, unless they grow their market share.  And that's where Novell is failing: market share.

Did you read the last financial reports of Novell regarding the growth of their Linux business? For the chronicles, in 2008 they had 29.8% (http://www.novell.com/company/blogs/cmo/?p=207) of market share (about half of RH). It's hard to say that with about 30% of the market share you are "failing" at it. Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hi, 2010/6/10 Trifle Menot :

Enterprise market is one thing, total market is another.  Without strong grassroots support, their enterprise market share will shrink.

Linux has 1% of the marketshare on the desktop. It is not an interesting amount for a company honestly.

Why do you think they put Novell on the auction block?  If executive management was optimistic about Novell's potential to gain significant market share, why would they do that?

Because they want more money. It has nothing to do with technology, software or plans. It's just business, and if they find the buyer who pays as much as they want, they'll sell. I would invite you in not reading too much in that: we simply do not have any element to judge at the moment. The rest is pure speculation, and it is not going to help in any way. A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/10 Trifle Menot :

Investors and speculators spend the whole day gathering information, often by talking.  That's what they do.  That's their job.

Yes, but they invest money. You just talk, you don't want to help, you are not an investor (or you didn't identify yourself as one). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday June 10 2010 02:44:14 Trifle Menot wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 01:47:04 +0200, Stephan Kleine

wrote:

...

On Wednesday June 9 2010 22:56:55 Trifle Menot wrote:

...

I don't look at Novell as a problem. I think you are mistaking my arguments for an attack. I want Novell (and its successor) to grow and thrive. I want devs to earn nice salaries, so they can support their families while doing work they enjoy.

With all due respect but: 1. You said you wont contribute in any way as long as openSUSE "depends" on Novell in any way.

No, I said I want to see independent opensuse project infrastructure, like bugzilla. I don't care that paid Novell devs can influence the project with their opinions and work. I want Novell to show good faith by separating the project infrastructure. I think that's an important step.

Well, what would that be good for if we had an "independent" Bugzilla where it were exactly the same thing as it were now? I certainly wont start to argue with you about the goods and bads of bugzilla since those are well known. My point simply is that having an independent bug tracker totally doesn't matter since the core of the distro depends on OBS and you simply don't have the financial reserves to replace that. Surely you aren't the first to say that bugzilla sucks and it should be replaced with $superior_solution but all others like e.g. JIRA aren't that better either. So I somehow fail to see your point besides "we have to get an independent one" just for the sake of it (besides you prolly wont notice if bugs.opensuse.org leads to some Novell hosted site). So ....

...

2. You are arguing over and over that the patent deal between Novell and "M$" drives others aways.

That's not my focus. You're twisting my words.

...

So I guess it is fair to say that you see Novell as a problem.

No, but some people here are too sensitive, and take offense at the least thing.

Well, that is the impression you give here, not only to me.

...

...

But the reality is, if you're not growing, you're dying. You must take risks to compete with market leaders. If you don't, you will fall so far behind in terms of market share, that you can never catch up. And that will mean the eventual death of opensuse.

Well, how do you define "market leader"? In an enterprise field clearly Red Hat and Novell _are_ the "market leaders".

Ubuntu and Red Hat look like leaders to me.

Right, Ubuntu being a leader in the _enterprise_ market? Now you really have to be kidding .... Sorry, but that simply can't be taken seriously. (and before you got on some rant that Ubuntu has the biggest market share please note that I am talking about the _enterprise_ market and not about home users since no one figured out yet how to earn money from them.)

...

...

Fully separating the opensuse infrastructure from the main sponsor is a risk. But I think it's the best way to attract new opensuse users and grow grassroots support of opensuse. If it works, the corporate sponsor will reap the rewards of improved public opinion and increasing market share.

Before you raise claims like that please answer some questions:

1. Who will pay the core devs working on it since the current "community" isn't able to do so?

Novell, or its buyer.

So nothing changes?

...

2. Who will pay for the basic infrastructure like OBS (since that will be the most costly) so development can go on as it does currently?

Novell, or its buyer.

So nothing changes?

You are jumping to wrong conclusions about my intent.

I honestly doubt so albeight you make it pretty hard since you didn't answer any question asked.

...

Well, while the number of people assigned to work merely on openSUSE might be ridiculously small compared to the whole number of employees (11 if I'm not mistaken) openSUSE still profits from the others working on SLE (which certainly are quite some more).

Point being, me personally, I contribute to it because I consider it the best KDE distro available and it - now - gives me the tools to contribute by

1. Trolling IRC a bit. 2. Packaging stuff I find missing and updating others I find outdated (yes, I love OBS) 3. Testing it since that will be what I have to use.

Also I honestly don't see a reason why other corporations should be driven away from contributing by said "M$" Novell deal. IOW your whole rant against "get independent of Novell" is as ridiculous as if you would visit the Fedora

Again, you are jumping to wrong conclusions. I'm talking about opensuse project infrastructure. I'm not asking Novell people to go away.

Well, please provide me with one reason why $mighty_sponsor should sponsor this why said sponsor is unwilling to sponsor anything currently cause bad Novell has a deal with the devil aka "M$". IOW: why should they invest the money to create some independent infrastructure just to rebuild what we have now? To me this sounds like some waste of resources.

...

mailing list and tell them to get independent of Red Hat. It is just a community distro that is the base for a corporate one. You have all the possibilities to enhance it or change its direction _if_ you contribute and have valid arguments but some silly rant while refusing to do anything "cause it is reigned by some evil overlord" is simply ridiculous.

Point being, until 1. You can come up with some reasonable idea how to pay core devs to work on it. 2. You tell us how to pay for the necessary infrastructure (e.g OBS). 3. _You_ start contributing instead of telling others what they should do. 4. You enlighten us how the relationship between Fedora and RHEL is different to openSUSE and SLE. 5. You provide some _proof_ of someone that got driven away by that "M$" deal - and no, some random joe sitting in his cellar doesn't count but we are talking about "corporate" sponsors who would be willing to invest more than just some 3-5 digits sum.

So, either surprise me or please simply cut it since that thread has run its course quite some time ago.

For sure you had valid arguments about the independence of Novell in case they were sold but that ongoing rant about some evil "M$" plots leads nowhere - or at least makes you look like something you prolly wont want.

I am not ranting about MS/Novell. Again you are twisting my words. You're not paying attention to what I say, you're listening to your own imagination.

I'm not twisting anything but I'm seriously looking forward to get an answer to the question I asked you. So, since you apparently refuse to answer most of them lets just boil it down once more: How is openSUSE vs. SLE different to Fedora vs. RHEL? As in both are community distributions that are the base for respective corporate efforts. And I dare to say neither of them is able to survive without backing of their main sponsors (Novell or Red Hat). Did you already try to ask the Fedora folks on their mailing list to get rid of Red Hat? If so, please provide the URL of that thread so we can all have a laugh. Before you go on arguing please be so kind to answer the two questions stated in the last two paragraphs. Just so you don't miss them let me repeat it for you: 1. How is openSUSE vs. SLE different to Fedora vs. RHEL? 2. Did you already try to ask the Fedora folks to get rid of Red Hat? I'm looking forward to your answers. regards, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua schreef:

2010/6/9 Trifle Menot :

...

You can't beat the market leader by working in a comfort zone. You must take bold risks to grow grassroots support of opensuse. You need a much larger population of opensuse users. And that won't happen until Novell devs shed their clique mentality and reach outside their comfort zone.

That's in part true that you have to go out of the comfort zone, but I don't see how this is related to developers being well paid. Being well paid to do something you like seems to me the perfect deal, and I really prefer to see well paid developers, than developers that have to deal with economic difficulties and be split between open source contributions and their work. Novell allowed SUSE developers to do this, with some compromise of course, but that's clearly something acceptable in the big picture. Remember one thing that you are forgetting: openSUSE would not exist without Novell. It is Novell that opened the project, and made all what we are talking about possible.

...

Yes but Mark doesn't need board approval, he has his own money to spend. It's different for a corporation, whose prime directive is profit. How can they justify it to shareholders?

Mark wants profit too. He says that clearly. He just invested waiting to have a return, and he also fixed a date for that.

...

Novell gave opensuse a bad reputation. A new corporate name may help change market perceptions. It seems likely that will happen soon.

Clearly we have different point of views. I think Novell made openSUSE possible, more open and accessible. Look at the facts for one minute instead than to the politics. Novell opened the whole SUSE, made YaST open source (it wasn't in SuSE), they offered the openSUSE buildservice to the community, opening it to all major distributions. They support, sometime alone, many open projects, and openSUSE has one of the best KDE and GNOME implementations of the Linux arena.

The bad reputation is not that bad. It is often due to what people reads on certain press, but when they know the community and try the distribution, they often change their mind, even in comparison to other more popular distributions (read ubuntu). I see that happen quite often.

What would be useful, is to stop considering Novell as a problem, and start looking at it as an advantage, because that's what it is. They surely made a lot of mistakes, especially at the beginning, but they also fixed many of them during these years. If you look at openSUSE today, you see a well built distribution, with a good user experience, a good hardware support, a cool look, and a friendly approach to Linux. I'm not saying it's perfect, and there surely is a lot of work to do, but it depends more on us (community) than on Novell.

To conclude, I think it is really unfair to look at Novell as a problem. There were communication problems at the beginning, there are different needs and perspectives, but it is clear things changed. Maybe the first required change in the community is to honestly acknowledge their merits, and then poke them when there is what we consider a problem.

Best, A.

I think this point of vieuw is correct. The deal brought money, and the vision that SUSE is realy something that matters... It is easier to invest when there is money to do that... Somtimes things that look for the worst, are for the best. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/10 Carlos E. R. :

On the other hand, I have seen old time users, even contributors, go away to some other distro just because the support time went down from two years to 18 months.

Yes, that was something that made some user upset. But 18 months is also the standard support time for many other distributions (I know there is Ubuntu LTS). Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 10. Juni 2010, 11:23:26 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

[Sent later]

On 2010-06-09 21:23, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

There has been some mention of the other sponsors, but open-slx wasn't mentioned. Personally I find what open-slx are doing extremely interesting - since they are actually trying to monetize openSUSE. Something Novell never wanted to do, since Novell is greatly (and mistakenly so) underestimating the relevance of the consumer market. Open-slx have been hiring some people, and hopefully they'll be succesful and grow more influential - and hopefully other companies will copy this model and try to monetize openSUSE too.

I wasn't aware of this, so I googled a bit and found the site. Unfortunately, it is in German only, so I don't understand a word.

They took over the production, marketing and selling of the boxed edition and in return want to improve documentation and work on other parts of the distribution/upstream projects. For me this looks like a sound project, Novell itself isn't interested in doing the 90 day support etc for a project they don't expect a direct revenue stream from. And for us this means this goes to people we know that care directly about openSUSE, free from any Novell control. Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/10 Carlos E. R. :

I understand that, but the web page should not be German language only.

Ask some of the translators to translate it. I'm sure they'll be happy to help :-) Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Torsdag den 10. juni 2010 22:18:32 skrev Carlos E. R.:

On 2010-06-10 21:17, Karsten König wrote:

...

Am Donnerstag, 10. Juni 2010, 11:23:26 schrieb Carlos E. R.: [open-slx]

...

...

I wasn't aware of this, so I googled a bit and found the site. Unfortunately, it is in German only, so I don't understand a word.

They took over the production, marketing and selling of the boxed edition and in return want to improve documentation and work on other parts of the distribution/upstream projects. For me this looks like a sound project, Novell itself isn't interested in doing the 90 day support etc for a project they don't expect a direct revenue stream from. And for us this means this goes to people we know that care directly about openSUSE, free from any Novell control.

I understand that, but the web page should not be German language only.

This page is English for me: http://www.open-slx.com/ Also see: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2010-04/msg00003.html and: http://vizzzion.org/blog/2010/05/new-challenges/ And previously it has been announced that open-slx sponsored work done on the wiki. So we should support open-slx. And maybe they deserve to be listed among the sponsors, to give them added visibility. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org