Re: [opensuse-project] Cross-posting - why not?
Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org> wrote:
* Rajko <rmatov101@charter.net> [12-07-12 19:38]:
On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 15:01:23 +0100 Henne Vogelsang <hvogel@opensuse.org> wrote:
Only the user to user support lists are closed. So opensuse and opensuse-$LANG. Everything else is open.
Thank you for prompt answer Henne.
Then we have to adjust cross posting section in netiquette to reflect this.
Ah, adjust cross posting? For what reason? So far I have seen one for cross-posting, one on the fence and several voices against, if memory serves.
Now that I'm paying attention, I've seen 2 cross-posted threads in the last couple days. The -project/-artwork cross-post and a -packaging/-buildservice cross-post. The second one even started with a intro sentence saying it was a cross-post. So I assume both of those posters agree with me. For the proposal as it stands (ie. bifurcated netiquette for open / closed lists), only Patrick, Basil, and Carlos have been against. But I argue that cross-posting on the specialty lists has been happening for years and that for at least the last 3 years the netiquette has not addressed it. I think the netiquette as I updated it in my first post actually captures the status qua and no one has been complaining until the last week or two when someone had the nerve to cross-post to the sacred opensuse@opensuse.org list. Apparently that list is sacrosanct with traditions established before man discovered fire and is not open to change. The netiquette as I posted it preserves its centuries long traditions, but allows the specialists lists to continue as they've been doing the last few years. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Head of EDD Tape Extraction and Processing team Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer CNN/TruTV Aired Forensic Imaging Demo - http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/23/how-computer-evidence-gets-retriev... The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
* Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer@gmail.com> [12-08-12 09:27]: ...
Now that I'm paying attention, I've seen 2 cross-posted threads in the last couple days. The -project/-artwork cross-post and a -packaging/-buildservice cross-post.
The second one even started with a intro sentence saying it was a cross-post.
So I assume both of those posters agree with me.
False assumption, posters may or may not have been aware of the netiquette.
For the proposal as it stands (ie. bifurcated netiquette for open / closed lists), only Patrick, Basil, and Carlos have been against.
So far vocal stands are still one for, one fence and three against.
But I argue that cross-posting on the specialty lists has been happening for years and that for at least the last 3 years the netiquette has not addressed it.
You know for a fact that the cross-posting statement was removed > 3 years ago? I cannot find history of the change.
I think the netiquette as I updated it in my first post actually captures the status qua and no one has been complaining until the last week or two when someone had the nerve to cross-post to the sacred opensuse@opensuse.org list.
Apparently that list is sacrosanct with traditions established before man discovered fire and is not open to change. The netiquette as I posted it preserves its centuries long traditions, but allows the specialists lists to continue as they've been doing the last few years.
The last two paragraphs are quite sanctimonious and not in your *usual* character, perhaps you would prefer to rephrase. Or not. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org> wrote:
* Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer@gmail.com> [12-08-12 09:27]: ...
Now that I'm paying attention, I've seen 2 cross-posted threads in the last couple days. The -project/-artwork cross-post and a -packaging/-buildservice cross-post.
The second one even started with a intro sentence saying it was a cross-post.
So I assume both of those posters agree with me.
False assumption, posters may or may not have been aware of the netiquette.
For the proposal as it stands (ie. bifurcated netiquette for open / closed lists), only Patrick, Basil, and Carlos have been against.
So far vocal stands are still one for, one fence and three against.
But I argue that cross-posting on the specialty lists has been happening for years and that for at least the last 3 years the netiquette has not addressed it.
You know for a fact that the cross-posting statement was removed > 3 years ago? I cannot find history of the change.
The "new" wiki only goes back to 2010. The history is here: <http://en.opensuse.org/index.php?title=openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette&action=history> The oldest netiquette entry on it is from April 2010. It doesn't discuss cross-posting.
I think the netiquette as I updated it in my first post actually captures the status qua and no one has been complaining until the last week or two when someone had the nerve to cross-post to the sacred opensuse@opensuse.org list.
Apparently that list is sacrosanct with traditions established before man discovered fire and is not open to change. The netiquette as I posted it preserves its centuries long traditions, but allows the specialists lists to continue as they've been doing the last few years.
The last two paragraphs are quite sanctimonious and not in your *usual* character, perhaps you would prefer to rephrase. Or not.
I get frustrated with the rules of opensuse@opensuse.org. I participate on numerous lists and it is the one where I see netiquette discussed the most. Sure it's nice to have guidelines, but the ones for opensuse@opensuse.org seem to exist because they were established in the last century and can't be changed. fyi: I do like the no top-posting rule, and it is used on most of the linux lists I'm on. It is not used on the computer forensics specialty lists I'm on and I wish it was. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 8 Dec 2012 09:25:13 -0500, Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer@gmail.com> wrote:
only Patrick, Basil, and Carlos have been against.
OK, count me in that group too. In the two decades I have been using email I have rarely seen real use for cross-posting. I do see use when wanting to discuss something where you want input from different groups. But that only makes sense when these are really different groups *and* the subject is appropriate for all groups/lists you post to. If, like in the case of Linda Walsh's post about initrd, that is not the case, it is a nuisance. So the differentiation between closed and open lists isn't precise enough. It should be added that whoever cross-posts should really think about the destinations of his mail.
week or two when someone had the nerve to cross-post to the sacred opensuse@opensuse.org list.
That's wrong on more than one account. Cross posting has always annoyed me, specially so whenever I was part of more than one of the receiving groups. And the opensuse list isn't sacred, it's just that it's a high volume list and any stuff that (perceivably) unnecessarily adds to the volume is frowned upon.
Apparently that list is sacrosanct with traditions established before man discovered fire and is not open to change.
Oh cut out the sarcasm as it doesn't help one bit here. Otherwise someone could start arguing to allow html mail just because so many use it nowadys. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 09:25:13 -0500, Greg Freemyer wrote:
So I assume both of those posters agree with me. For the proposal as it stands (ie. bifurcated netiquette for open / closed lists), only Patrick, Basil, and Carlos have been against.
That's not a reasonable assumption, Greg. I assume many people haven't "weighed in" because (a) there's no need for a change, and (b) this subject comes up about every 18 months regardless of what the settings are and we're tired of relitigating these same old issues over and over again. Whatever happens, count on it coming up for a heated discussion again in about two years. Everyone will have /excellent/ reasons for their positions, and it will change again or not. And the cycle will continue to repeat ad infinitum. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Jim Henderson <hendersj@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 09:25:13 -0500, Greg Freemyer wrote:
So I assume both of those posters agree with me. For the proposal as it stands (ie. bifurcated netiquette for open / closed lists), only Patrick, Basil, and Carlos have been against.
That's not a reasonable assumption, Greg. I assume many people haven't "weighed in" because (a) there's no need for a change, and (b) this subject comes up about every 18 months regardless of what the settings are and we're tired of relitigating these same old issues over and over again.
Jim, I've got a pretty good memory and I've been on the opensuse@opensuse.org list for close to 10 years. Much less so for -project or wherever a discussion like this might take place. I'm sure there has been the occasional post pro or con cross-posting over the years come my way, but I don't recall a "litigation" of cross posting prior to this one. (fyi: my day job is litigation support, so I like your choice of word.) Further, I know the idea of opening up a lot of the opensuse lists was discussed summer of 2010. (I participated in those discussions, as may you?). Prior to that most were not open. Here's what I think is my first post where I asked if the the opensuse lists could be more open: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2010-06/msg00628.html So, without the follow thru of that "litigation" eventually leading to today where we have primarily open lists, this litigation would have ended early on because of the not every one can post to both lists argument. So I agree netiquette gets litigated in some way every year or two, but I don't think cross-posting has been litigated in a lot of years and the most powerful old argument no longer applies. Greg (IANAL) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 16:32:18 -0500, Greg Freemyer wrote:
Jim, I've got a pretty good memory and I've been on the opensuse@opensuse.org list for close to 10 years. Much less so for -project or wherever a discussion like this might take place.
I'm sure there has been the occasional post pro or con cross-posting over the years come my way, but I don't recall a "litigation" of cross posting prior to this one. (fyi: my day job is litigation support, so I like your choice of word.)
:) Perhaps I should clarify - the topic of "how the lists are run" comes up in one way or another every year or two. I've only participated since 2003, but I recall rather heated debates about many aspects of list management over the years, however I tend to tune them out when people start bikeshedding about whether it should be "open" or "closed" or "allow crossposting" or "allow top posting" or "allow HTML" or "add more lists" or "remove inactive lists" or whatever other debate comes up that someone gets passionate about needing to be changed. So perhaps it isn't specifically cross-posting that comes up regularly, but there are frequent battles fought over list management. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
participants (4)
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Greg Freemyer -
Jim Henderson -
Patrick Shanahan -
Philipp Thomas