[opensuse-project] three necessary steps?
Hello, this is partly related to the discussion about priorities, but I don't want to hijack this other thread. I just wanted to say that I noticed three important blocking steps in my geecko life. I don't ask you to solve *my* problem, but I thing the project in his whole could benefit if more people could pass these steps more easily. * use of bugzilla. I was part of the very first open office french gteam loooooooooooooong time ago, an,d I had to wait several *years* before being able to manage bugzilla. We need still something more progressive to guide new geeckos to make usefull bugzilla reports (I'm not even sure mine are good) * use of the wiki. I started the french wiki and was from the beginning in the opensuse adventure. But when the wiki was re-organised, I stopped completely using it. A wiki is *by nature* unorganised and anyway accessed mostly through google or other search engine. Having to find where to put my participation was relly too difficult. - there is at least a need of better explanation of where do what work. * right now, or better said one year ago I wanted to help a friend developer entering his software (EKD=EnKoderDemixer) in OBS. I was never able to do so. Not for OBS itself, but I don't understand hos to write a spec file. I don't even understand the vocabulary used in the help files.... I compile kernel since nearly 20 years now so I should be able to do OBS. I probably could achieve this if I had not other (family) problems at the same time, but this is anyway a blocking part. Better doc? as I still have this work to do, I may help :-) thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi jdd, Am 29.11.2013 17:55, schrieb jdd:
* use of bugzilla. I was part of the very first open office french gteam loooooooooooooong time ago, an,d I had to wait several *years* before being able to manage bugzilla. We need still something more progressive to guide new geeckos to make usefull bugzilla reports (I'm not even sure mine are good)
Bugzilla is so far "state of the art" the problem is that you need to know what you want. Bugzilla is just a huge powerful bug reporting tool. Nothing more nothing less. For sure there are other things around, like redmine which is really good in handling tasks.
* use of the wiki. I started the french wiki and was from the beginning in the opensuse adventure. But when the wiki was re-organised, I stopped completely using it. A wiki is *by nature* unorganised and anyway accessed mostly through google or other search engine. Having to find where to put my participation was relly too difficult. - there is at least a need of better explanation of where do what work.
Well, no. A wiki needs a structure. or at least a team which knows where to find the stuff. Theb structure should tell you where your writing needs to be placed. Therfor we need teams. Maybe thats the point, we should specialize the users which want to contribute. Contribution means (in my mind) to add something to something, so the point were you want to act is quite clear, it should be a page under the team you want to contribute to.
* right now, or better said one year ago I wanted to help a friend developer entering his software (EKD=EnKoderDemixer) in OBS. I was never able to do so. Not for OBS itself, but I don't understand hos to write a spec file. I don't even understand the vocabulary used in the help files.... I compile kernel since nearly 20 years now so I should be able to do OBS. I probably could achieve this if I had not other (family) problems at the same time, but this is anyway a blocking part. Better doc? as I still have this work to do, I may help :-)
Well, to be honest, i tried it to, and failed several times. I guess OBS is quite good if you already have experience in building RPMs. And thats the audiance where it is addressed to. OBS is for guys who have software, or write code and dont have the money to buy several machines where they can build there software for a several distributions. Thats what it is good for. But, talking more about contribution. It is always hard to find an entrance point. People come around and like what they see, than they want to contribute (or just use it) than they are looking for informations. Or maybe for an mentor which could help guide them through. This is something we dont have. We dont have a platform for all kinds of contribution, like others have. For example, we dont have a platform for system administrators, the stuff is mostly done by SUSE also the security team. But thats why we have a lot of coders and builders (by percentage). My 2 cents
thanks jdd
welcome johest -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 29/11/2013 19:05, Joerg Stephan a écrit :
through. This is something we dont have. We dont have a platform for all kinds of contribution, like others have.
do they? really? jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am 29.11.2013 19:49, schrieb jdd:
Le 29/11/2013 19:05, Joerg Stephan a écrit :
through. This is something we dont have. We dont have a platform for all kinds of contribution, like others have.
do they? really?
Well, regarding the most i am used to (like Mageia, fedora, Ubuntu) i really think so. Johest
jdd
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 29/11/2013 21:39, Joerg Stephan a écrit :
Am 29.11.2013 19:49, schrieb jdd:
Le 29/11/2013 19:05, Joerg Stephan a écrit :
through. This is something we dont have. We dont have a platform for all kinds of contribution, like others have.
do they? really?
Well, regarding the most i am used to (like Mageia, fedora, Ubuntu) i really think so.
should be interesting to list what they have and we don't :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am 29.11.2013 21:50, schrieb jdd:
should be interesting to list what they have and we don't :-)
Well okay than: http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Teams vs. https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Category:Teams https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams Maybe i am wrong, could be, but for me, and please keep in mind that i am an administrator and security guy, there is a lot room for participation in other distris. In former times (several years ago) i joined the admin team of fedora and helped a bit on there movement from nagios to zabbix, joining was quite easy and they had a great mentor ship. On our side, teams wich i would be interested in, are done by SUSE or (what i also was told) they have enough guys. My 3 cent
jdd
johest
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Joerg Stephan wrote:
Am 29.11.2013 21:50, schrieb jdd:
should be interesting to list what they have and we don't :-)
Well okay than:
http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Teams vs. https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Category:Teams https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams
Maybe i am wrong, could be, but for me, and please keep in mind that i am an administrator and security guy, there is a lot room for participation in other distris. In former times (several years ago) i joined the admin team of fedora and helped a bit on there movement from nagios to zabbix, joining was quite easy and they had a great mentor ship. On our side, teams wich i would be interested in, are done by SUSE or (what i also was told) they have enough guys.
You're talking about our infrastructure? Yes, to my knowledge that is not community-operated, that is all/mostly done internally by SUSE/openSUSE. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.8°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hey, On 30.11.2013 10:06, Per Jessen wrote:
You're talking about our infrastructure? Yes, to my knowledge that is not community-operated, that is all/mostly done internally by SUSE/openSUSE.
This isn't particularly true. 12 of the 13 services referenced in the bento bar (the black thing on top of all our sites) are maintained on github. The same percentage should be true for most of the stuff not referenced in the bento bar. The only thing that often isn't managed by us is the deployment. We use the SUSE datacenter as service provider and they handle the deployment for us. Most of the time automatically, less often (mostly for big complicated services) manually. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 30.11.2013 10:06, Per Jessen wrote:
You're talking about our infrastructure? Yes, to my knowledge that is not community-operated, that is all/mostly done internally by SUSE/openSUSE.
This isn't particularly true. 12 of the 13 services referenced in the bento bar (the black thing on top of all our sites) are maintained on github. The same percentage should be true for most of the stuff not referenced in the bento bar.
Apologies, I wasn't referring to the location/hoster of a service, but the people operating/maintaining it. I am including all of openSUSE infrastructure, obs, mailing lists, forums, websites, wikis, distribution. Is all of that really operated by the community and can anyone volunteer? I've offered to help out in the past, but the usual response has been that it is done internally, trouble with authentication, access etc. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.4°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 18:39:52 +0100 Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
... I've offered to help out in the past, but the usual response has been that it is done internally, trouble with authentication, access etc.
For instance https://github.com/openSUSE/wiki and few more in https://github.com/openSUSE . If you have no write access to some project you can fork it to your own and when you have changes you can send pull request. Handling is sometimes easy if github edit can help, for more there is "simplicity" of local git :) It is actually not complicated, but there is number of commands and it is easy to forget exact syntax when you don't use it for a while. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hey, On 04.12.2013 18:39, Per Jessen wrote:
Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 30.11.2013 10:06, Per Jessen wrote:
You're talking about our infrastructure? Yes, to my knowledge that is not community-operated, that is all/mostly done internally by SUSE/openSUSE.
This isn't particularly true. 12 of the 13 services referenced in the bento bar (the black thing on top of all our sites) are maintained on github. The same percentage should be true for most of the stuff not referenced in the bento bar.
Apologies, I wasn't referring to the location/hoster of a service, but the people operating/maintaining it. I am including all of openSUSE infrastructure, obs, mailing lists, forums, websites, wikis, distribution. Is all of that really operated by the community and can anyone volunteer?
Like I've said, the services are maintained in github repositories and are deployed from there. Let me give you and example: 1. You want to prepare conference.opensuse.org for oSC14 2. You fork or clone[1] https://github.com/openSUSE/conference.o.o 3. You change things 4. You submit or send a pull-request[1] 5. You send an email to admin@opensuse.org requesting a deploy. Some services automatically pull github repos 6. PROFIT!!!
I've offered to help out in the past, but the usual response has been that it is done internally, trouble with authentication, access etc.
If you mean helping to maintain the underlying OS of the services, this is currently what we have shored off to the "provider" SUSE yes. This is something SUSE has promised to make possible for a while but it's understandable that they are reluctant to give anyone root access without "assurances". Like any other provider... Henne [1] Depending on you being in the right group on github, which is a right that is earned by good commits :-) -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 05/12/2013 12:53, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
Hey,
On 04.12.2013 18:39, Per Jessen wrote:
Apologies, I wasn't referring to the location/hoster of a service, but the people operating/maintaining it. I am including all of openSUSE infrastructure, obs, mailing lists, forums, websites, wikis, distribution. Is all of that really operated by the community and can anyone volunteer?
Like I've said, the services are maintained in github repositories and are deployed from there. Let me give you and example:
I do see nothing in forums, wikis or mailing lists that can be maintain in github?? do forum moderators us github to moderate? jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hey, On 05.12.2013 13:28, jdd wrote:
Le 05/12/2013 12:53, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
On 04.12.2013 18:39, Per Jessen wrote:
Apologies, I wasn't referring to the location/hoster of a service, but the people operating/maintaining it. I am including all of openSUSE infrastructure, obs, mailing lists, forums, websites, wikis, distribution. Is all of that really operated by the community and can anyone volunteer?
Like I've said, the services are maintained in github repositories and are deployed from there. Let me give you and example:
I do see nothing in forums, wikis or mailing lists that can be maintain in github??
The wiki is maintained in github -> https://github.com/openSUSE/wiki The forum software isn't, I dunno where that source code is. Kim? The mailinglist software isn't because I don't find the time to push it there, but I should...
do forum moderators us github to moderate?
Huh? Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 05/12/2013 15:25, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
do forum moderators us github to moderate?
Huh?
I understand. You speak of maintaining the software, I thought of the content. there are at least two levels of administration: installation and security updates (mostly technical) and content management, like you are (if it's still true?) the mailing lists owner such info should probably be easily available, but it's hard to maintain such doc and hard to make it easily available for the less technical users thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2013-12-05 at 12:53 +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
If you mean helping to maintain the underlying OS of the services, this is currently what we have shored off to the "provider" SUSE yes. This is something SUSE has promised to make possible for a while but it's understandable that they are reluctant to give anyone root access without "assurances". Like any other provider...
However, if you want to donate a server to the openSUSE infrastructure, the inverse is true, the SUSE Systems Management team are willing to assist with the maintenance of the server and treat it as an 'equal citizen' to the servers provided by them as a SUSE The details of that policy are here: https://en.opensuse.org/Infrastructure_policy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
I wonder if one thing that lacks badly is not openSUSE weekly. it's nearly impossible to follox any openSUSE mailing list/forum, news, blog or planet are too noisy but a weekly newspage is readable. I discover many things I didn't know through this discussion, when I pretty well keep interest on openSUSE for years now discussing when not all is known by all is partly pointless thanks for doing the job jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 30/11/2013 09:26, Joerg Stephan a écrit :
Am 29.11.2013 21:50, schrieb jdd:
should be interesting to list what they have and we don't :-)
Well okay than:
http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Teams vs. https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Category:Teams https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams
fedora page is smart, mageia inexistent, ubuntu random, opensuse no so bad
Maybe i am wrong, could be, but for me, and please keep in mind that i am an administrator and security guy, there is a lot room for participation in other distris. In former times (several years ago) i joined the admin team of fedora and helped a bit on there movement from nagios to zabbix, joining was quite easy and they had a great mentor ship. On our side, teams wich i would be interested in, are done by SUSE or (what i also was told) they have enough guys.
this could be seen as Fedora is worst than we are :-), sysadmin or security wise. May be (or may be not) but I don't see, from these pages, a much better organisation than on our side. but of course wiki pages do not mean much. As documentation writer I was never said that I had no work left :-) I see two interesting things in the pages you quote: mentorship system on fedora part and personalization on ubuntu part (name of leaders) the first thing we may have to do from time to time is ask us if any (our) given team works well. thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
Le 30/11/2013 09:26, Joerg Stephan a écrit :
Am 29.11.2013 21:50, schrieb jdd:
should be interesting to list what they have and we don't :-)
Well okay than:
http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Teams vs. https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Category:Teams https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams
fedora page is smart, mageia inexistent, ubuntu random, opensuse no so bad
The openSUSE page is poor, imho. Poor spelling, poor language, uninviting. I've just made a few corrections, but when I first saw it this morning, my first reaction was confusion. As a newcomer, my first questions would be "where do I fit in" followed by "where do I go"? And the page doesn't answer those. In comparison, Fedora looks open and inviting. (just a first impression). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.7°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 30/11/2013 10:52, Per Jessen a écrit :
And the page doesn't answer those. In comparison, Fedora looks open and inviting. (just a first impression).
yes. The goal could be: * make the team page more friendly * make it moire visible (don't know how one can find it) * make it responsive (any query should have an answer) who is in charge of this page? (is there a team manager?) jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi again, Am 30.11.2013 11:02, schrieb jdd:
* make the team page more friendly * make it moire visible (don't know how one can find it) * make it responsive (any query should have an answer)
maybe we should: 1. review the teams, in my opinion there a lot of teams mentioned which are not really an opensuse team or should belong to an other team, like * openSUSE Board, Boosters or opensuse-community.org are not really a team, on the community team page are the most not really joinable * Art, Marketing, ambassadors should be bond * news, weekly-news * wiki, forum, documentation An entry point should be clear, and after the first decision we should more step into what the user want to do, like "i want to help others" and he should be pointed to Forum and Wiki and IRC, mailingslists, something like that. Got the idea?
who is in charge of this page? (is there a team manager?)
Good question
jdd
johest
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2013-11-29 at 17:55 +0100, jdd wrote:
* right now, or better said one year ago I wanted to help a friend developer entering his software (EKD=EnKoderDemixer) in OBS. I was never able to do so. Not for OBS itself, but I don't understand hos to write a spec file. I don't even understand the vocabulary used in the help files.... I compile kernel since nearly 20 years now so I should be able to do OBS. I probably could achieve this if I had not other (family) problems at the same time, but this is anyway a blocking part. Better doc? as I still have this work to do, I may help :-)
Did you try to follow blog posts targeting beginners on their journey to become packagers, like for example http://dominique.leuenberger.net/blog/2009/05/rpm-packaging-for-beginners/ ? Writing a .spec file is no black magic.. if you can install a program from source, then you have already half of the work done (you know the commands to install the beast). Dominique -- Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger <dimstar@opensuse.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday 29 November 2013 17:55:28 jdd wrote:
Hello,
this is partly related to the discussion about priorities, but I don't want to hijack this other thread.
I just wanted to say that I noticed three important blocking steps in my geecko life. I don't ask you to solve *my* problem, but I thing the project in his whole could benefit if more people could pass these steps more easily.
* use of bugzilla. I was part of the very first open office french gteam loooooooooooooong time ago, an,d I had to wait several *years* before being able to manage bugzilla. We need still something more progressive to guide new geeckos to make usefull bugzilla reports (I'm not even sure mine are good)
* use of the wiki. I started the french wiki and was from the beginning in the opensuse adventure. But when the wiki was re-organised, I stopped completely using it. A wiki is *by nature* unorganised and anyway accessed mostly through google or other search engine. Having to find where to put my participation was relly too difficult. - there is at least a need of better explanation of where do what work.
Both above are a pain, yes. Bugzilla Iwith don't know what to do with :( With regard to the wiki, however - the KDE community has this separation between 'techbase' and 'userbase': separate developer/contributor documentation/coordination and user help. We use the namespaces with SDB et, but for me at least it doesn't work as clean as having a different domain/wiki instance. Also, we have essentially three kind-of places you can get help: SDB (vetted, quality documentation), 'normal' wiki pages (?) and what is now activedoc. I know Activedoc is new and I think the team has the ambition to bring the SDB and other documentation in there (?). That would be a great step forward: user documentation/help is on activedoc. Our wiki would be purely for contributors/participants of openSUSE. Of course, our https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:How_to_participate page needs MUCH work. Once upon a time, this page was reasonably complete, then it was in a horrible state for a while, now it's simply short and incomplete but at least it doesn't look messy. Unfortunately it points to openFate which, as far as I can tell, is not used by developers. Or is it?
* right now, or better said one year ago I wanted to help a friend developer entering his software (EKD=EnKoderDemixer) in OBS. I was never able to do so. Not for OBS itself, but I don't understand hos to write a spec file. I don't even understand the vocabulary used in the help files.... I compile kernel since nearly 20 years now so I should be able to do OBS. I probably could achieve this if I had not other (family) problems at the same time, but this is anyway a blocking part. Better doc? as I still have this work to do, I may help :-)
As Dimstar and others have pointed out, there is plenty of documentation and walk-throughs and video's. It would be nice, however, if a freshly created OBS account would point the brand new user to some of this content, help to get them going... Those of you familiar with many modern webservices and mobile apps must have seen that approach in action.
thanks jdd
Hugs, J
participants (8)
-
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger -
Henne Vogelsang -
jdd -
Joerg Stephan -
Jos Poortvliet -
Per Jessen -
Rajko -
Richard Brown