[opensuse-project] Upcoming marketing brainstorm (This or early next week)
Hello team, I' would like to schedule a marketing brainstorm session for openSUSE Leap 15.2 prior to launch on the 2nd of July. It should be this or early next week. I'd like to ask you to pick up one or more time slots that work for you at https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/openSUSELeap152MarketingBrainstorm This document will also serve as a scratchpad and meeting minutes. Meeting itself will happen in a virtual form at https://meet.opensuse.org/Marketing The task to schedule this event is tracked here: https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/61344 We can absolutely do more than one round if necessary. ps. I did message the Telegram group openSUSE_Marketing. Thank you -- Best regards Luboš Kocman Release Manager openSUSE Leap SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director: Felix Imendörffer
On 6/19/20 11:09 AM, Lubos Kocman wrote:
Hello team,
I' would like to schedule a marketing brainstorm session for openSUSE Leap 15.2 prior to launch on the 2nd of July. It should be this or early next week.
I'd like to ask you to pick up one or more time slots that work for you at https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/openSUSELeap152MarketingBrainstorm
This document will also serve as a scratchpad and meeting minutes.
Meeting itself will happen in a virtual form at https://meet.opensuse.org/Marketing
The task to schedule this event is tracked here: https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/61344
We can absolutely do more than one round if necessary.
ps. I did message the Telegram group openSUSE_Marketing.
Thank you
The dates have been updated on the etherpad. June 19 - June 23. Times are Central European Time, which is two hours ahead of UTC. Right now it looks like either a Saturday night or Tuesday night. I would rather go for Tuesday night, but we will see what it looks like by the end of the day. v/r Doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Trying to squeeze this in before the migration of some services start. I think since there are some services being done this week on infrastructure that we should have our meeting on Tuesday at 20:00 CEST. v/r Doug On 6/19/20 12:38 PM, ddemaio wrote:
On 6/19/20 11:09 AM, Lubos Kocman wrote:
Hello team,
I' would like to schedule a marketing brainstorm session for openSUSE Leap 15.2 prior to launch on the 2nd of July. It should be this or early next week.
I'd like to ask you to pick up one or more time slots that work for you at https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/openSUSELeap152MarketingBrainstorm
This document will also serve as a scratchpad and meeting minutes.
Meeting itself will happen in a virtual form at https://meet.opensuse.org/Marketing
The task to schedule this event is tracked here: https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/61344
We can absolutely do more than one round if necessary.
ps. I did message the Telegram group openSUSE_Marketing.
Thank you
The dates have been updated on the etherpad. June 19 - June 23. Times are Central European Time, which is two hours ahead of UTC. Right now it looks like either a Saturday night or Tuesday night. I would rather go for Tuesday night, but we will see what it looks like by the end of the day. v/r Doug
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Hi all, Here is the follow up to the marketing brainstorm meeting we had yesterday. Here are a couple of things that the community can help do for the release. We have social posts that can be translated at https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Social_media_launch_plan For people running an openSUSE social media page who would like to post the content, please mark down the name for the person who will be responsible for posting the content on the wiki. Also, feel free to create some social media posts on https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/socialmediapostsWhile we celebrate the release of openSUSE Leap 15.2. we plan on doing a social media posting party as part of the launch parties taking place. Create a room or place to hang out on the https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Launch_parties wiki and start an area to meet using https://meet.opensuse.org, https://hubs.mozilla.com, Discord or something else. There are already two sites listed, but feel free to start you own. Especially if you want to do a party in a specific language. After the release, share a photo or screenshot (release party) of how you are celebrating the release of Leap 15.2 with the slogan "#openSUSE is for everyone" and publish it on social media. Make a video about "how I use openSUSE" or "why I use openSUSE" and send to ddemaio@suse.com, so the videos can be edited and shared online. 5 to 30 seconds are ideal. However, it people want to do examples, that can also be shared. You can find the overall minutes at https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/openSUSELeap152MarketingBrainstorm v/r Doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi all, Am Mittwoch, 24. Juni 2020, 12:39:22 CEST schrieb ddemaio: <snip>
You can find the overall minutes at https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/openSUSELeap152MarketingBrainstorm
In the minutes is a sentence that concerns me:
The openSUSE Board (Marina, Axel, Simon) wants to do the Marketing stuff for their own. They know that better than the Marketing Team.
I can confirm that this is fake news. None of us intends to do 'marketing stuff on our own'. We have a very capable marketing team, with which we are very happy. It it not the boards duty or objecive to churn in every pot. Can this false sentense please be removed? And maybe the person who states this steps up? Thanks Axel -- Dr. Axel Braun <docb@opensuse.org> Member of the openSUSE global project board -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. Juni 2020 um 21:10 Uhr Von: "Axel Braun" <axel.braun@gmx.de> An: opensuse-translation@opensuse.org, "marketing@opensuse.org" <marketing@opensuse.org>, "opensuse-project@opensuse.org" <opensuse-project@opensuse.org> Cc: "ddemaio" <ddemaio@suse.de> Betreff: Re: [opensuse-project] Marketing brainstorm meeting report
Hi all,
Am Mittwoch, 24. Juni 2020, 12:39:22 CEST schrieb ddemaio:
<snip>
You can find the overall minutes at https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/openSUSELeap152MarketingBrainstorm
In the minutes is a sentence that concerns me:
The openSUSE Board (Marina, Axel, Simon) wants to do the Marketing stuff for their own. They know that better than the Marketing Team.
I can confirm that this is fake news.
None of us intends to do 'marketing stuff on our own'. We have a very capable marketing team, with which we are very happy. It it not the boards duty or objecive to churn in every pot.
Can this false sentense please be removed? And maybe the person who states this steps up?
Wasn't that the Board opinion after the last election? There are no fake news! That is the reality and you have lost 2 Board Members because you are staying behind the discrimination of different groups of people in the community.
Thanks Axel
Best regards, Sarah
-- Dr. Axel Braun <docb@opensuse.org> Member of the openSUSE global project board
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On 6/25/20 5:53 AM, Sarah Julia Kriesch wrote:
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. Juni 2020 um 21:10 Uhr Von: "Axel Braun" <axel.braun@gmx.de> An: opensuse-translation@opensuse.org, "marketing@opensuse.org" <marketing@opensuse.org>, "opensuse-project@opensuse.org" <opensuse-project@opensuse.org> Cc: "ddemaio" <ddemaio@suse.de> Betreff: Re: [opensuse-project] Marketing brainstorm meeting report
Hi all,
Am Mittwoch, 24. Juni 2020, 12:39:22 CEST schrieb ddemaio:
<snip>
You can find the overall minutes at https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/openSUSELeap152MarketingBrainstorm
In the minutes is a sentence that concerns me:
The openSUSE Board (Marina, Axel, Simon) wants to do the Marketing stuff for their own. They know that better than the Marketing Team.
I can confirm that this is fake news.
None of us intends to do 'marketing stuff on our own'. We have a very capable marketing team, with which we are very happy. It it not the boards duty or objecive to churn in every pot.
Can this false sentense please be removed? And maybe the person who states this steps up?
Wasn't that the Board opinion after the last election?
No it most certainly was not, I have no idea how you could have come to that conclusion. Personally I have always made the choice not to be involved in marketing because I am already doing too many things and I believe the marketing team is already doing a good job. If I thought there was improvements that needed to happen within the marketing team, then i'd join the marketing team and suggest them rather then trying to make a whole new team from in the board :-) -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 22:23, Sarah Julia Kriesch <ada.lovelace@gmx.de> wrote:
Wasn't that the Board opinion after the last election? There are no fake news! That is the reality and you have lost 2 Board Members because you are staying behind the discrimination of different groups of people in the community.
I am very surprised and concerned by what emerged from the thread. I am truly concerned that someone felt the need to comment anonymously: this should never happen in a community that aims to be open and inclusive. I think it is necessary to ask why this has become necessary. As a proud community member part of the board, and I think I can speak for the other colleagues on the board as well, I ask everyone to speak freely, and to express directly. Being on the board also means listening to constructive criticisms and educated opinions. Another thing that worries me, and that personally offends me, is that someone may think that the board can implement any form of discrimination; During these years both I and the communities with which I have had the pleasure and the honor of collaborating, we have committed ourselves to actively fight any form of discrimination of any kind. For the sake of this community, I invite anyone with reasons to feel discriminated against to come forward without fear and to share their experience with us. I want to express maximum openness in this regard. At the same time, however, I am urged to suggest not to use the term "discrimination" for things that have nothing to do with it. This is a serious problem, and using this term improperly risks undermining the work of all those who are committed to actively fighting it. This does not mean that, in a difficult period like the one we are facing, something may have slipped out of sight; I invite anyone involved in this story to express their opinion (eg Marketing Team) so that we can provide clarifications and explanations on what has been done so far.I am of the opinion that a discussion, even hard, but open, is far more useful and productive than having hidden "snipers" ready to shoot in the back. Marina -- Marina Latini openSUSE Board: deneb_alpha -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hello Marina, thank you for these words! Am 25.06.20 um 10:18 schrieb Marina Latini:
For the sake of this community, I invite anyone with reasons to feel discriminated against to come forward without fear and to share their experience with us. I want to express maximum openness in this regard.
I wholeheartedly support that. And I hope we can resolve this issue soon! Regards, Christian Imhorst -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2020, 10:18:38 CEST schrieb Marina Latini:
Wasn't that the Board opinion after the last election? There are no fake news! That is the reality and you have lost 2 Board Members because you are staying behind the discrimination of different groups of people in the community. I am very surprised and concerned by what emerged from the thread. I am truly concerned that someone felt the need to comment anonymously: this should never happen in a community that aims to be open and inclusive. I think it is necessary to ask why this has become necessary. As a
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 22:23, Sarah Julia Kriesch wrote: proud community member part of the board, and I think I can speak for the other colleagues on the board as well, I ask everyone to speak freely, and to express directly. Being on the board also means listening to constructive criticisms and educated opinions. Another thing that worries me, and that personally offends me, is that someone may think that the board can implement any form of discrimination; During these years both I and the communities with which I have had the pleasure and the honor of collaborating, we have committed ourselves to actively fight any form of discrimination of any kind. For the sake of this community, I invite anyone with reasons to feel discriminated against to come forward without fear and to share their experience with us.
From all I know, that could indeed be the case, but that wouldn't make
That statement sounds good, but hearing it from you or the current board [0] is more than strange. The last person who felt discriminated and asked the board for support was shouted down and kicked out (including being shouted down and getting all arguments rejected when trying to explain why she felt discriminated), and the main reason quoted for kicking her out was based on a sidenote in that request for support. And now you write the above without feeling bad? Seriously? I hate to say that, but with the current board, I can't recommend to ask the board for support in such cases. Maybe the problem is limited to a specific "whitelisted" [1] person on the "other side"? things better. Quite the opposite.
I want to express maximum openness in this regard.
As you wish - I hope the above was open enough ;-) (while still not completely open to protect the involved) If not, I can offer more things, but given that they involve human beings and anonymization is very hard (fully anonym = no longer understandable), it's probably better for all involved people not to bring these things up in public.
At the same time, however, I am urged to suggest not to use the term "discrimination" for things that have nothing to do with it. This is a serious problem, and using this term improperly risks undermining the work of all those who are committed to actively fighting it.
To start with - can we please first have an as-exact-as-possible definition/description of what is or isn't discrimination? I'll start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination because that matches my understanding: Discrimination is the act of making distinctions between human beings based on the groups, classes, or other categories to which they are perceived to belong. People may discriminate on the basis of age, caste, [... long list ...] as well as other categories. There can be positive (not punishing someone who misbehaved) and negative discrimination (for example punishing someone who did nothing wrong) - since we are a mostly technical community, they are easily explained by the words "whitelisting" and "blocklisting" ([1] again). Can we agree on this definition? As a somewhat obscure (and admittedly not-too-serious) example: I like wine and don't like beer. And at many conferences I get discriminated for my drinking habits at the openSUSE booth because we only offer beer ;-) [2] While this is only a minor thing, IMHO it still technically qualifies as discrimination (I get discriminated for my wine preference) - and also shows that there are different levels of discrimination, starting from minor annoyances (no wine at the booth) up to serious issues. (Needless to say that I won't file a formal complaint because "no wine" is too minor compared to "serious" discrimination.) The things that end up with the board are much more serious, but are still far from the highest level - sadly some recent events in the USA redefined what worst-case discrimination can be. Regards, Christian Boltz [0] Vinz joined the board late enough to count as an exception [1] I know that the word "whitelisting" can be seen as discriminating (because of "white"), but so far I haven't heard an alternative that is better and still understandable for everybody. On the positive side, it's easy to replace "blacklist" with "blocklist" - and while I've seen people using "allowlist" instead of "whitelist", that (still?) sounds somewhat strange to me. [2] Just to make it clear: the outcome of that not-so-serious example should _not_ be that we don't offer beer anymore - it's a good way to get people to our booth. However, I won't complain if we also offer wine or other drinks - and I'm sure that would bring even more people to our booth. Post-Covid19 of course, virtual wine just isn't the same as real wine. -- * cboltz votes for the boring version - can't <sarnold> that's a bit informal for a mandatory security platform :) <sbeattie> ah, but you see, contractions are informal, and we can't, err can not, err cannot, err can ?not have that. [from #apparmor, while discussing bugzilla.novell.com/853661] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 22:30, Christian Boltz <opensuse@cboltz.de> wrote:
At the same time, however, I am urged to suggest not to use the term "discrimination" for things that have nothing to do with it. This is a serious problem, and using this term improperly risks undermining the work of all those who are committed to actively fighting it.
To start with - can we please first have an as-exact-as-possible definition/description of what is or isn't discrimination?
I'll start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination because that matches my understanding:
Discrimination is the act of making distinctions between human beings based on the groups, classes, or other categories to which they are perceived to belong. People may discriminate on the basis of age, caste, [... long list ...] as well as other categories.
There can be positive (not punishing someone who misbehaved) and negative discrimination (for example punishing someone who did nothing wrong) - since we are a mostly technical community, they are easily explained by the words "whitelisting" and "blocklisting" ([1] again).
Can we agree on this definition?
I don't really agree, since discrimination is based on who you are and not how you act, it would be really hard to explain acting on bad or good behaviour as a form of discrimination. I would in that case opt for a term "moderation" instead ;) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2020 um 22:46 Uhr Von: "Stasiek Michalski" <hellcp@opensuse.org> An: "Christian Boltz" <opensuse@cboltz.de> Cc: opensuse-project@opensuse.org, marketing@opensuse.org Betreff: Re: [opensuse-project] Marketing brainstorm meeting report
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 22:30, Christian Boltz <opensuse@cboltz.de> wrote:
At the same time, however, I am urged to suggest not to use the term "discrimination" for things that have nothing to do with it. This is a serious problem, and using this term improperly risks undermining the work of all those who are committed to actively fighting it.
To start with - can we please first have an as-exact-as-possible definition/description of what is or isn't discrimination?
I'll start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination because that matches my understanding:
Discrimination is the act of making distinctions between human beings based on the groups, classes, or other categories to which they are perceived to belong. People may discriminate on the basis of age, caste, [... long list ...] as well as other categories.
There can be positive (not punishing someone who misbehaved) and negative discrimination (for example punishing someone who did nothing wrong) - since we are a mostly technical community, they are easily explained by the words "whitelisting" and "blocklisting" ([1] again).
Can we agree on this definition?
I don't really agree, since discrimination is based on who you are and not how you act, it would be really hard to explain acting on bad or good behaviour as a form of discrimination. I would in that case opt for a term "moderation" instead ;)
LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world
How about following definition by a professional website[0]? The AGU defines discrimination as: unequal or unfair treatment in professional opportunities, education, benefits, evaluation, and employment (such as hiring, termination, promotion, compensation) as well as retaliation and various types of harassment. Discriminatory practices can be explicit or implicit, intentional, or unconscious. Best regards, Sarah [0] https://serc.carleton.edu/advancegeo/resources/definitions.html
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Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2020 um 22:46 Uhr Von: "Stasiek Michalski" <hellcp@opensuse.org> An: "Christian Boltz" <opensuse@cboltz.de> Cc: opensuse-project@opensuse.org, marketing@opensuse.org Betreff: Re: [opensuse-project] Marketing brainstorm meeting report
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 22:30, Christian Boltz <opensuse@cboltz.de> wrote:
At the same time, however, I am urged to suggest not to use the term "discrimination" for things that have nothing to do with it. This is a serious problem, and using this term improperly risks undermining the work of all those who are committed to actively fighting it.
To start with - can we please first have an as-exact-as-possible definition/description of what is or isn't discrimination?
I'll start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination because that matches my understanding:
Discrimination is the act of making distinctions between human beings based on the groups, classes, or other categories to which they are perceived to belong. People may discriminate on the basis of age, caste, [... long list ...] as well as other categories.
There can be positive (not punishing someone who misbehaved) and negative discrimination (for example punishing someone who did nothing wrong) - since we are a mostly technical community, they are easily explained by the words "whitelisting" and "blocklisting" ([1] again).
Can we agree on this definition?
I don't really agree, since discrimination is based on who you are and not how you act, it would be really hard to explain acting on bad or good behaviour as a form of discrimination. I would in that case opt for a term "moderation" instead ;)
LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world
How about following definition by a professional website[0]? The AGU defines discrimination as: unequal or unfair treatment in professional opportunities, education, benefits, evaluation, and employment (such as hiring, termination, promotion, compensation) as well as retaliation and various types of harassment. Discriminatory practices can be explicit or implicit, intentional, or unconscious.
Best regards, Sarah Only harrasment I see here comes from you and your entourage Sarah -
On Fri, 2020-06-26 at 07:57 +0200, Sarah Julia Kriesch wrote: plese stop with this toxic behavior. Regards Martin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Juni 2020 um 09:04 Uhr Von: "Martin Pluskal" <martin@pluskal.org> An: opensuse-project@opensuse.org Betreff: Re: [opensuse-project] Marketing brainstorm meeting report
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2020 um 22:46 Uhr Von: "Stasiek Michalski" <hellcp@opensuse.org> An: "Christian Boltz" <opensuse@cboltz.de> Cc: opensuse-project@opensuse.org, marketing@opensuse.org Betreff: Re: [opensuse-project] Marketing brainstorm meeting report
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 22:30, Christian Boltz <opensuse@cboltz.de> wrote:
At the same time, however, I am urged to suggest not to use the term "discrimination" for things that have nothing to do with it. This is a serious problem, and using this term improperly risks undermining the work of all those who are committed to actively fighting it.
To start with - can we please first have an as-exact-as-possible definition/description of what is or isn't discrimination?
I'll start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination because that matches my understanding:
Discrimination is the act of making distinctions between human beings based on the groups, classes, or other categories to which they are perceived to belong. People may discriminate on the basis of age, caste, [... long list ...] as well as other categories.
There can be positive (not punishing someone who misbehaved) and negative discrimination (for example punishing someone who did nothing wrong) - since we are a mostly technical community, they are easily explained by the words "whitelisting" and "blocklisting" ([1] again).
Can we agree on this definition?
I don't really agree, since discrimination is based on who you are and not how you act, it would be really hard to explain acting on bad or good behaviour as a form of discrimination. I would in that case opt for a term "moderation" instead ;)
LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world
How about following definition by a professional website[0]? The AGU defines discrimination as: unequal or unfair treatment in professional opportunities, education, benefits, evaluation, and employment (such as hiring, termination, promotion, compensation) as well as retaliation and various types of harassment. Discriminatory practices can be explicit or implicit, intentional, or unconscious.
Best regards, Sarah Only harrasment I see here comes from you and your entourage Sarah -
On Fri, 2020-06-26 at 07:57 +0200, Sarah Julia Kriesch wrote: plese stop with this toxic behavior.
Who has brought the toxic behavor to the mailing list? Who has represented agressivity here? They are only from the existing Board! There are facts, that they don't want to see any improvements in the Marketing Team, because they meant to do that better. There are other attestors in the community. Marina wants to have a list by affected Community Members and openess. She can have that: 1) Support of discrimination on maling lists and no interaction after a support email because of whitelisting 2) Admission of a negative impact on election results 3) I have brought the same suggestions for Marketing improvements as Vinz (difference is the brainstorming with existing facs marked by unhappy users). The Board does not want to have any improvements. My suggestions are bad. The list can be longer. That has happened in a really short time within the openSUSE Board. I was invided to the meeting of the Marketing Team. I had to include this topic because the existing Board is excluding a good Team work within the Marketing Team with their interactions. You can see the behavior within the Board how they are representing themselves. Look into my own (Localization) Team. Do you see unhappy Contributors there? Decisions by the Board are the problem here. Best regards, Sarah
Regards
Martin
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With all due respect, and I didn't want to point fingers yesterday, but it appears to me that the problem is your behaviour and tone, not anyone else's. I'd like to ask you to please stop escalating this matter. And your question about the Localization team - I've actually considering to join for a while now but I don't because I am not willing to put up with what seems to be the communication style. Regards Carsten It ghoes as far that I refrain to join the localisation teams as Am Freitag, den 26.06.2020, 11:06 +0200 schrieb Sarah Julia Kriesch:
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Juni 2020 um 09:04 Uhr Von: "Martin Pluskal" <martin@pluskal.org> An: opensuse-project@opensuse.org Betreff: Re: [opensuse-project] Marketing brainstorm meeting report
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2020 um 22:46 Uhr Von: "Stasiek Michalski" <hellcp@opensuse.org> An: "Christian Boltz" <opensuse@cboltz.de> Cc: opensuse-project@opensuse.org, marketing@opensuse.org Betreff: Re: [opensuse-project] Marketing brainstorm meeting report
On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 22:30, Christian Boltz < opensuse@cboltz.de> wrote:
At the same time, however, I am urged to suggest not to use the term "discrimination" for things that have nothing to do with it. This is a serious problem, and using this term improperly risks undermining the work of all those who are committed to actively fighting it.
To start with - can we please first have an as-exact-as- possible definition/description of what is or isn't discrimination?
I'll start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination because that matches my understanding:
Discrimination is the act of making distinctions between human beings based on the groups, classes, or other categories to which they are perceived to belong. People may discriminate on the basis of age, caste, [... long list ...] as well as other categories.
There can be positive (not punishing someone who misbehaved) and negative discrimination (for example punishing someone who did nothing wrong) - since we are a mostly technical community, they are easily explained by the words "whitelisting" and "blocklisting" ([1] again).
Can we agree on this definition?
I don't really agree, since discrimination is based on who you are and not how you act, it would be really hard to explain acting on bad or good behaviour as a form of discrimination. I would in that case opt for a term "moderation" instead ;)
LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world
How about following definition by a professional website[0]? The AGU defines discrimination as: unequal or unfair treatment in professional opportunities, education, benefits, evaluation, and employment (such as hiring, termination, promotion, compensation) as well as retaliation and various types of harassment. Discriminatory practices can be explicit or implicit, intentional, or unconscious.
Best regards, Sarah Only harrasment I see here comes from you and your entourage Sarah
On Fri, 2020-06-26 at 07:57 +0200, Sarah Julia Kriesch wrote: - plese stop with this toxic behavior.
Who has brought the toxic behavor to the mailing list? Who has represented agressivity here? They are only from the existing Board!
There are facts, that they don't want to see any improvements in the Marketing Team, because they meant to do that better. There are other attestors in the community.
Marina wants to have a list by affected Community Members and openess. She can have that: 1) Support of discrimination on maling lists and no interaction after a support email because of whitelisting 2) Admission of a negative impact on election results 3) I have brought the same suggestions for Marketing improvements as Vinz (difference is the brainstorming with existing facs marked by unhappy users). The Board does not want to have any improvements. My suggestions are bad.
The list can be longer. That has happened in a really short time within the openSUSE Board.
I was invided to the meeting of the Marketing Team. I had to include this topic because the existing Board is excluding a good Team work within the Marketing Team with their interactions. You can see the behavior within the Board how they are representing themselves. Look into my own (Localization) Team. Do you see unhappy Contributors there? Decisions by the Board are the problem here.
Best regards, Sarah
Regards
Martin
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Dear all I am an interested long-time user only following these lists to be close to the project and its machinery - as many others do. I may not tell you news but I just wish to share how these discussions are perceived by the many users on the sidelines like me: Starting with a good cause, to brainstorm the marketing effort for Leap 15.2, the whole discussion descended quickly into a largely irrelevant, rather unprofessional argument between former and current Board Members. Without knowing any details about the conflict, it feels there are some unsettled issues that are shoehorned into this marketing-related discussion by former Board Members without any need to do so. The community is OpenSUSE’s strength and I want by no means advocate to become totally corporate, but a little more professionalism would probably do more for OpenSUSE’s marketing effort than a few social media posts. Pushing your own agenda with wild public accusations is definitely not helpful at all. So if I, as a user, may wish for something - please focus on the common goal, please work together cooperatively. If not, you’re damaging the community, however great your contribution in the past may have been. Regards C. Hoyer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Carsten Hoyer <hoyer@mailbox.org> writes:
Dear all
I am an interested long-time user only following these lists to be close to the project and its machinery - as many others do. I may not tell you news but I just wish to share how these discussions are perceived by the many users on the sidelines like me:
Starting with a good cause, to brainstorm the marketing effort for Leap 15.2, the whole discussion descended quickly into a largely irrelevant, rather unprofessional argument between former and current Board Members. Without knowing any details about the conflict, it feels there are some unsettled issues that are shoehorned into this marketing-related discussion by former Board Members without any need to do so.
The community is OpenSUSE’s strength and I want by no means advocate to become totally corporate, but a little more professionalism would probably do more for OpenSUSE’s marketing effort than a few social media posts. Pushing your own agenda with wild public accusations is definitely not helpful at all.
So if I, as a user, may wish for something - please focus on the common goal, please work together cooperatively. If not, you’re damaging the community, however great your contribution in the past may have been.
I have not attended the meeting, but I can only wholeheartedly agree with the above statement: let's try to be excellent to each other. Otherwise petty conflicts will tear the community apart. Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director: Felix Imendörffer
Op donderdag 25 juni 2020 10:18:38 CEST schreef Marina Latini:
Wasn't that the Board opinion after the last election? There are no fake news! That is the reality and you have lost 2 Board Members because you are staying behind the discrimination of different groups of people in the community. I am very surprised and concerned by what emerged from the thread. I am truly concerned that someone felt the need to comment anonymously: this should never happen in a community that aims to be open and inclusive. I think it is necessary to ask why this has become necessary. As a
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 22:23, Sarah Julia Kriesch <ada.lovelace@gmx.de> wrote: proud community member part of the board, and I think I can speak for the other colleagues on the board as well, I ask everyone to speak freely, and to express directly. Being on the board also means listening to constructive criticisms and educated opinions. Another thing that worries me, and that personally offends me, is that someone may think that the board can implement any form of discrimination; During these years both I and the communities with which I have had the pleasure and the honor of collaborating, we have committed ourselves to actively fight any form of discrimination of any kind. For the sake of this community, I invite anyone with reasons to feel discriminated against to come forward without fear and to share their experience with us. I want to express maximum openness in this regard. At the same time, however, I am urged to suggest not to use the term "discrimination" for things that have nothing to do with it. This is a serious problem, and using this term improperly risks undermining the work of all those who are committed to actively fighting it. This does not mean that, in a difficult period like the one we are facing, something may have slipped out of sight; I invite anyone involved in this story to express their opinion (eg Marketing Team) so that we can provide clarifications and explanations on what has been done so far.I am of the opinion that a discussion, even hard, but open, is far more useful and productive than having hidden "snipers" ready to shoot in the back.
Marina Marina, thanks a lot for this post. I wholeheartedlty support every word of it. IMNSHO people who do not, should look for some other community, though I doubt that any community accepting the opposite would survive.
-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 6/24/20 1:23 PM, Sarah Julia Kriesch wrote:
Can this false sentense please be removed? And maybe the person who states this steps up?
Wasn't that the Board opinion after the last election? There are no fake news! That is the reality and you have lost 2 Board Members because you are staying behind the discrimination of different groups of people in the community.
Best regards, Sarah
--
This message started the acrimony. Please stop. Two people accused of being marketing renegades have stated specifically that they are not circumventing the Marketing Team. Thus the offending sentence entered anonymously is almost certainly incorrect/false, and should be removed as Axel requested. This mailing list and all the others where you cross-posted are not going to reach resolution on Board misbehavior. Please be realistic here. There is almost no likelihood of a beneficial outcome from your comments on the lists or in the community. Carl Symons -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi Carsten,
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Juni 2020 um 11:46 Uhr Von: "Carsten Hoyer" <hoyer@mailbox.org> An: "Sarah Julia Kriesch" <ada.lovelace@gmx.de>, "Martin Pluskal" <martin@pluskal.org> Cc: opensuse-project@opensuse.org Betreff: Re: [opensuse-project] Marketing brainstorm meeting report
With all due respect, and I didn't want to point fingers yesterday, but it appears to me that the problem is your behaviour and tone, not anyone else's.
I don't do that to damage openSUSE. I am doing that because we have got this statement/ decision by the openSUSE Board. I know German laws and there are attestors (see email by Christian Boltz) in the community. Additionally, I have received trainings about diversity, discrimination, bullying, ... (and how to interact then) besides my Bachelor Thesis. That has approved that my interactions have been correctly. I know what I am saying. That is based on facts.
I'd like to ask you to please stop escalating this matter.
I don't escalate any more. Sorry that one short information had such an impact to your contributions during the meeting. I was invited and I had the same feeling as you have it now. I wanted to keep that as short as possible that the rest of the meeting would not be affected. I want to have a positive atmosphere inside of the community, too. By default I start every meeting with a smalltalk and welcome new people on that way that they can receive a positive feeling. I have to forward information, if activities are affected by Board decisions (even if that is related "only" to me). That was the case. Sorry!
And your question about the Localization team - I've actually considering to join for a while now but I don't because I am not willing to put up with what seems to be the communication style.
The Localization Team is not affected by decisions of the existing Board. We are allowed to live freedom there. I keep "Bad news" as short and lowest as possible. We have to wait for the poll. After a reelection of the existing Board the Marketing Team can live freedom again. You can have a look on the archive of German translation mailing list. Then you see the fun there. :)
Regards
Carsten
Best regards, Sarah
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Sarah, Am Freitag, 26. Juni 2020, 21:29:20 CEST schrieb Sarah Julia Kriesch:
After a reelection of the existing Board the Marketing Team can live freedom again.
Working in the marketing team myself for more than two years now there never ever was any interfering from the current or any previous board. Or any other third party. Really I don't care why you're spreading false statements and in consequence doing massive harm to marketing team's efforts on gathering new contributors. Just stop it immediately. vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Op vrijdag 26 juni 2020 22:24:43 CEST schreef Vinzenz Vietzke:
Sarah,
Am Freitag, 26. Juni 2020, 21:29:20 CEST schrieb Sarah Julia Kriesch:
After a reelection of the existing Board the Marketing Team can live freedom again.
Working in the marketing team myself for more than two years now there never ever was any interfering from the current or any previous board. Or any other third party.
Really I don't care why you're spreading false statements and in consequence doing massive harm to marketing team's efforts on gathering new contributors. Just stop it immediately.
vinz. I second this call from Vinz. Please stop your attacks. Any more accusations of discrimations will no longer be accepted by me. I will no longer accept your behaviour on these lists.
-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Forums -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Samstag, 27. Juni 2020, 00:10:10 CEST schrieb Knurpht-openSUSE:
Op vrijdag 26 juni 2020 22:24:43 CEST schreef Vinzenz Vietzke:
Am Freitag, 26. Juni 2020, 21:29:20 schrieb Sarah Julia Kriesch:
After a reelection of the existing Board the Marketing Team can live freedom again.
Working in the marketing team myself for more than two years now there never ever was any interfering from the current or any previous board. Or any other third party.
Note that Sarah wrote I have to forward information, if activities are affected by Board decisions (even if that is related "only" to me). That does _not_ mean that those decisions were communicated to the marketing team - especiallly the "related only to me" part should make that clear. Therefore it's not surprising that the marketing team did not know about this before. (And this also means that it wasn't a "false statement".)
I second this call from Vinz. Please stop your attacks. Any more accusations of discrimations will no longer be accepted by me. I will no longer accept your behaviour on these lists.
Gertjan, that's your opinion, not necessarily "the truth"[tm] - and when you loudly rejected what Sarah wrote in her request for conflict resolution support, you didn't even give her a chance to explain her point of view - and now you ask her again to shut up. Nice[tm]. Oh, BTW: (at least) some of the things you said to or about Sarah in that meeting were plain wrong. For example, you misquoted one of my mails in the worst possible way, and I can only hope that your goal wasn't to break the friendship between Sarah and me. Please stop now, you've already caused more than enough damage :-( Speaking about accusations (and unrelated to this discussion) - what would you do with someone who writes And please stop stalking me $name. on a mailinglist while there isn't any indication of stalking or other misbehaviour? Regards, Christian Boltz --
Leider Gottes ist es so, daß wenn man einen Spammer zu Strecke gebracht hat, dafür drei neue auftauchen. Das ist wie bei den Fliegen. Schlägst Du eine Tot, kommen 40 zur Beerdigung. ;) [> Martin Mewes und Michael Raab in suse-linux]
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Hi, (I'm removing translations and marketing list to reduce the noise a bit.) Am Mittwoch, 24. Juni 2020, 21:10:01 CEST schrieb Axel Braun:
Can this false sentense please be removed?
It got removed today at 07:33 a.m.
And maybe the person who states this steps up?
Looking at the etherpad's history [1] starting from version 1451 one can see that the sentence got added by someone: - anonymous - not contributing anything else to the pad - during the meeting (23/06/2020 20:25:34) [1] https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/openSUSELeap152MarketingBrainstorm/ timeslider#1451 Hth, vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
participants (15)
-
Axel Braun -
Carl Symons -
Carsten Hoyer -
Christian Boltz -
Christian Imhorst -
Dan Čermák -
ddemaio -
Knurpht-openSUSE -
Lubos Kocman -
Marina Latini -
Martin Pluskal -
Sarah Julia Kriesch -
Simon Lees -
Stasiek Michalski -
Vinzenz Vietzke