[opensuse-project] Common troubleshooting during an Install Fest
Dear All, I am moving this from to the project list from marketing list as Bryen suggested Since a lot of people have done openSUSE install fests over here on the list, what were the most common problems faced during installation as this can prepare anyone for an upcoming install fest. -- Regards MANU Here are the replies which I got on that list. I would like more people to add their views 1. buggy dvd!!! I remember 10.1 (or 0?) demo dvd (official) 2 about 3 where buggy, and made the demo fault. Written dvd are also often faulty :-( jdd 2. HI Manu, I have myself organised the install fest and would like to tell you some of the problems we faced: Firstly If you are planning to use a projector make sure that you configure the projector settings well in advance since it usually causes trouble. Secondly,try to distribute some video tutorials for those willing to install on their desktops back home. Also try to cover more than one linux distros.Make sure you do not get into troubles with OS issues with laptops of some vendors . BTW Good luck and do ask for any other help. 3. My experiences are humble on this field. This is the way I've done it: 1. Manpower > provided by PLUG (Portuguese Linux Users Group). 2. Merchandising > is cool to have, can be a pain if it is in low numbers due to demand. Having at least a token for everyone who shows up is good. 3. Place > depending on your audience targets, this is nice. In my case I've hired a public space with very good conditions, Aveiro's Cultural and Congress Center. Which also offered proper conditions (power plugs, ethernet infra-structure, acceses, car parking, localization, etc). 4. Sponsorship > in my case the greatest sponsor was actually SuSE GmbH (2 crates of merchandise), Sun Microsystems provided around 1K of StarOffice 5.1 CD's, Red Hat Inc provided some stickers. Most of this contacts were made using connections with people which worked for us, except for SuSE which I handled personaly because I was SuSE user. Sun Microsystems and Red Hat were contacts made through people we know on those companies which were our clients. 5. Showcase > if you can get a hardware sponsorship which can lend you some equipment for displaying stuff, this is great. Logistics will probably be your great problem. So be prepared to commit at all levels on logistics. That was the strongest barrier we had to endure. This was a nation wide event by the way, and we had from 400 to 500 visitors during the 2 days of the event, and people from all over the place came. nelson. 4.
From my experience:
- Wireless not working (IOW, dont know how to connect to a secured enterprise wireless network) - Fingerprint reader not working - There is no "Refresh" menu on right-click on Desktop (yeah they say that) - Where can I download anti-virus software ? - How can I play DVD (Best solution: Install VLC) - There is no Microsoft Word ? Sankar http://psankar.blogspot.com 5. Excellent initiative to be asking this question. I commend you. My guess is that most of the troubleshooting problems will be related to hardware, with prime examples being video and wireless. But many of these problems are resolvable through various solutions, depending on the specific hardware. It would be a good idea if you could gather up as much as you can and have a cd or USB of these drivers, etc. ready on hand to pop into machines at install fests. Also, I recommend that we use the power of community experience here. While the event is something of a marketing event, the questions you are asking are more technical-oriented. Therefore, you will get the best bang for your buck if you ask the community at large to offer up their experiences, via -project mailing list. Especially since not everyone on marketing teams are technical. Good luck and keep us posted on what you learned! Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Marketing Team lead GNOME-A11y Outreach lead 6. Also, use IRC if you have Internet, to help users with questions, and to show how it works :) (but warn ahead of time people in channel that other watching conversation :) -- Regards Rajko, - Show quoted text - 7. InstallFests are not common in europe anymore since maybe 10years. We all here have good access to the internet here and Linux can be installed much easier as 13-15 years ago. The only event here that make a thing thats nearby are the Chemnitzer Linux-Tage. http://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2008/live/praxis/ They call it Praxis Doctor Tux its a kind of help station for problems. I worked many years there and last I was responsible for this station. So maybe I can give u some advise. *First and important point is set information before installation. Dont force them to use a specific distro because u like this distro. Let them choose self be only a indepentant adviser *tell the guests always what u doing and why, involve them in decissions *there was a point here in that discussion "medias are sometimes not readable" thats mostly not the media mostly is the drive guilty. The lenses are smoothy and have problems to read burned medias. If u have one there exists cleaning sets for that problem. But with original medias ur on the better side, Another solution for that problem and not for that problem only is to use network install from an server in the internal network. Thats my first choice because u avoid not only the reading problem its much faster. *remember after fresh installations there exists always updates. Two possibilitys run a server (can be the same tftp from the net install) or run a proxy so that not all packages have to delivered from a far server in the net. *u see I talk about updates, installation means not to give away a fresh installed system it means give away a system with them ur guest can work. So install multimedia codecs and other stuff he needs to! *problems with exotic hardware. Thats true there are some problems with WLAN drivers, graphic card drivers and in the last years that fingerprint reader stuff, as Sankar said. The problem changes every year so that u can not really prepared for it. The only helpful thing here is to offer a registration with the promise that they would be handeled first. So that u know who comes with what devices and u can do researches before the InstallFest so hope that points are helpful br gnokii -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 20:45:36 +0530 Manu Gupta <manugupt1@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear All,
I am moving this from to the project list from marketing list as Bryen suggested
Since a lot of people have done openSUSE install fests over here on the list, what were the most common problems faced during installation as this can prepare anyone for an upcoming install fest.
-- Regards MANU
- How can I play DVD (Best solution: Install VLC) Hi To be honest I don't mind spending a few dollars on software, but have also purchased the fluendo products, two rpms to install and I'm done for all my multimedia requirements.
The other item I use is handbrake to ummm backup my dvds.... ;) I see they have a complete media bundle now which may be an alternative for some. Maybe approaching Fluendo and see if they will sponsor a give-away to a lucky user at an install fest? -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 11 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.32.12-0.7-default up 1 day 23:06, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.03, 0.00 GPU GeForce 8600 GTS Silent - Driver Version: 256.35 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Domingo, 27 de Junio de 2010 10:15:36 Manu Gupta escribió:
Dear All,
I am moving this from to the project list from marketing list as Bryen suggested
Since a lot of people have done openSUSE install fests over here on the list, what were the most common problems faced during installation as this can prepare anyone for an upcoming install fest.
-- Regards MANU
Here are the replies which I got on that list. I would like more people to add their views
1.
buggy dvd!!!
I remember 10.1 (or 0?) demo dvd (official) 2 about 3 where buggy, and made the demo fault. Written dvd are also often faulty :-(
jdd
2.
HI Manu, I have myself organised the install fest and would like to tell you some of the problems we faced: Firstly If you are planning to use a projector make sure that you configure the projector settings well in advance since it usually causes trouble. Secondly,try to distribute some video tutorials for those willing to install on their desktops back home. Also try to cover more than one linux distros.Make sure you do not get into troubles with OS issues with laptops of some vendors . BTW Good luck and do ask for any other help.
3.
My experiences are humble on this field. This is the way I've done it:
1. Manpower > provided by PLUG (Portuguese Linux Users Group). 2. Merchandising > is cool to have, can be a pain if it is in low numbers due to demand. Having at least a token for everyone who shows up is good. 3. Place > depending on your audience targets, this is nice. In my case I've hired a public space with very good conditions, Aveiro's Cultural and Congress Center. Which also offered proper conditions (power plugs, ethernet infra-structure, acceses, car parking, localization, etc). 4. Sponsorship > in my case the greatest sponsor was actually SuSE GmbH (2 crates of merchandise), Sun Microsystems provided around 1K of StarOffice 5.1 CD's, Red Hat Inc provided some stickers. Most of this contacts were made using connections with people which worked for us, except for SuSE which I handled personaly because I was SuSE user. Sun Microsystems and Red Hat were contacts made through people we know on those companies which were our clients. 5. Showcase > if you can get a hardware sponsorship which can lend you some equipment for displaying stuff, this is great.
Logistics will probably be your great problem. So be prepared to commit at all levels on logistics. That was the strongest barrier we had to endure.
This was a nation wide event by the way, and we had from 400 to 500 visitors during the 2 days of the event, and people from all over the place came.
nelson.
4.
From my experience:
- Wireless not working (IOW, dont know how to connect to a secured enterprise wireless network) - Fingerprint reader not working - There is no "Refresh" menu on right-click on Desktop (yeah they say that) - Where can I download anti-virus software ? - How can I play DVD (Best solution: Install VLC) - There is no Microsoft Word ?
Sankar http://psankar.blogspot.com
5.
Excellent initiative to be asking this question. I commend you.
My guess is that most of the troubleshooting problems will be related to hardware, with prime examples being video and wireless. But many of these problems are resolvable through various solutions, depending on the specific hardware. It would be a good idea if you could gather up as much as you can and have a cd or USB of these drivers, etc. ready on hand to pop into machines at install fests.
Also, I recommend that we use the power of community experience here. While the event is something of a marketing event, the questions you are asking are more technical-oriented. Therefore, you will get the best bang for your buck if you ask the community at large to offer up their experiences, via -project mailing list. Especially since not everyone on marketing teams are technical.
Good luck and keep us posted on what you learned!
Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Marketing Team lead GNOME-A11y Outreach lead
6.
Also, use IRC if you have Internet, to help users with questions, and to show how it works :)
(but warn ahead of time people in channel that other watching conversation :)
-- Regards Rajko, - Show quoted text -
7.
InstallFests are not common in europe anymore since maybe 10years. We all here have good access to the internet here and Linux can be installed much easier as 13-15 years ago.
The only event here that make a thing thats nearby are the Chemnitzer Linux-Tage.
http://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2008/live/praxis/
They call it Praxis Doctor Tux its a kind of help station for problems. I worked many years there and last I was responsible for this station. So maybe I can give u some advise.
*First and important point is set information before installation. Dont force them to use a specific distro because u like this distro. Let them choose self be only a indepentant adviser
*tell the guests always what u doing and why, involve them in decissions
*there was a point here in that discussion "medias are sometimes not readable" thats mostly not the media mostly is the drive guilty. The lenses are smoothy and have problems to read burned medias. If u have one there exists cleaning sets for that problem. But with original medias ur on the better side, Another solution for that problem and not for that problem only is to use network install from an server in the internal network. Thats my first choice because u avoid not only the reading problem its much faster.
*remember after fresh installations there exists always updates. Two possibilitys run a server (can be the same tftp from the net install) or run a proxy so that not all packages have to delivered from a far server in the net.
*u see I talk about updates, installation means not to give away a fresh installed system it means give away a system with them ur guest can work. So install multimedia codecs and other stuff he needs to!
*problems with exotic hardware. Thats true there are some problems with WLAN drivers, graphic card drivers and in the last years that fingerprint reader stuff, as Sankar said. The problem changes every year so that u can not really prepared for it. The only helpful thing here is to offer a registration with the promise that they would be handeled first. So that u know who comes with what devices and u can do researches before the InstallFest
so hope that points are helpful
br gnokii
8. Hi Manu, This is a great thread ! These some issues experienced at Panama. a. WLAN Card Adapters. Wireless issues are common specially connectivity drops. I do suggest you start with wire connection before to go wireless. Get another distros Live CDs available to make some tests and isolate issues. b. Bandwidth. Slow Internet or low bandwidth to download updates post install. If you have several computers installing or updating packages could have a no so efficient session. So as Bryan suggested running a server to catch updates on LAN instead a far server from the Internet. c. Graphic Card Adapters. Graphic Cards are another common issues. Some old cards or new cards have exotic configurations. Besides pre-Registration to the event (listing Hardware Specifications beforehand) I use to book for a troubleshooting session post install. It give time to look for the best troubleshoot options available for their hardware and keep future contact with our potential customer or Linux fans. d. Desktops. Keep several Desktop (Gnome, KDE, Xfce, LXDE) options available. Despite I love KDE some people love Gnome and other have no options because computers resources limitations. e. Media. Keep several media available and protected from scratches. At the rush time media get some scratches moving from place to another place. Some buggy media is an omnipresent possibility. d. Encryption and Security issues. Some security hardware as fingerprint readers, TPM, have been giving us a hard time to set them up. LVM does not use the whole Hard Disk Drive available. Hard Disk Drive encryption is a little tricky. e. Power. Unstable power source like brownouts, sag, noises are drawbacks for an install fest. Good UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) with AVR can help with these issues. f. Fanatics inside and outside. Some people think FOSS users are software crackers, "free" economy menace other people think everything will be for free (no costs). Education for both sides and press releases to get some good press attitude and attention. Best for all of you, -- Ricardo Chung a.k.a. amonthoth openSUSE Ambassador for Panama http://en.opensuse.org/User:Amonthoth http://es.opensuse.org/Usuario:Amonthoth http://twitter.com/amon0thoth1 http://www.opensuse.org/en/ http://es.opensuse.org/Grupos_Locales_de_Usuarios -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Moin, On Sunday 27 June 2010 17:15:36 Manu Gupta wrote:
Dear All,
I am moving this from to the project list from marketing list as Bryen suggested
Since a lot of people have done openSUSE install fests over here on the list, what were the most common problems faced during installation as this can prepare anyone for an upcoming install fest.
-- Regards MANU
Here are the replies which I got on that list. I would like more people to add their views It would be good to add the experience to the wiki so its not "buried" in the ml archive but accessible via a related topic in the wiki. Maybe here: http://en.opensuse.org/Marketing/Resources#Launch_Party_HOWTO
Best M
1.
buggy dvd!!!
I remember 10.1 (or 0?) demo dvd (official) 2 about 3 where buggy, and made the demo fault. Written dvd are also often faulty :-(
jdd
2.
HI Manu, I have myself organised the install fest and would like to tell you some of the problems we faced: Firstly If you are planning to use a projector make sure that you configure the projector settings well in advance since it usually causes trouble. Secondly,try to distribute some video tutorials for those willing to install on their desktops back home. Also try to cover more than one linux distros.Make sure you do not get into troubles with OS issues with laptops of some vendors . BTW Good luck and do ask for any other help.
3.
My experiences are humble on this field. This is the way I've done it:
1. Manpower > provided by PLUG (Portuguese Linux Users Group). 2. Merchandising > is cool to have, can be a pain if it is in low numbers due to demand. Having at least a token for everyone who shows up is good. 3. Place > depending on your audience targets, this is nice. In my case I've hired a public space with very good conditions, Aveiro's Cultural and Congress Center. Which also offered proper conditions (power plugs, ethernet infra-structure, acceses, car parking, localization, etc). 4. Sponsorship > in my case the greatest sponsor was actually SuSE GmbH (2 crates of merchandise), Sun Microsystems provided around 1K of StarOffice 5.1 CD's, Red Hat Inc provided some stickers. Most of this contacts were made using connections with people which worked for us, except for SuSE which I handled personaly because I was SuSE user. Sun Microsystems and Red Hat were contacts made through people we know on those companies which were our clients. 5. Showcase > if you can get a hardware sponsorship which can lend you some equipment for displaying stuff, this is great.
Logistics will probably be your great problem. So be prepared to commit at all levels on logistics. That was the strongest barrier we had to endure.
This was a nation wide event by the way, and we had from 400 to 500 visitors during the 2 days of the event, and people from all over the place came.
nelson.
4.
From my experience:
- Wireless not working (IOW, dont know how to connect to a secured enterprise wireless network) - Fingerprint reader not working - There is no "Refresh" menu on right-click on Desktop (yeah they say that) - Where can I download anti-virus software ? - How can I play DVD (Best solution: Install VLC) - There is no Microsoft Word ?
Sankar http://psankar.blogspot.com
5.
Excellent initiative to be asking this question. I commend you.
My guess is that most of the troubleshooting problems will be related to hardware, with prime examples being video and wireless. But many of these problems are resolvable through various solutions, depending on the specific hardware. It would be a good idea if you could gather up as much as you can and have a cd or USB of these drivers, etc. ready on hand to pop into machines at install fests.
Also, I recommend that we use the power of community experience here. While the event is something of a marketing event, the questions you are asking are more technical-oriented. Therefore, you will get the best bang for your buck if you ask the community at large to offer up their experiences, via -project mailing list. Especially since not everyone on marketing teams are technical.
Good luck and keep us posted on what you learned!
Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Marketing Team lead GNOME-A11y Outreach lead
6.
Also, use IRC if you have Internet, to help users with questions, and to show how it works :)
(but warn ahead of time people in channel that other watching conversation :)
-- Regards Rajko, - Show quoted text -
7.
InstallFests are not common in europe anymore since maybe 10years. We all here have good access to the internet here and Linux can be installed much easier as 13-15 years ago.
The only event here that make a thing thats nearby are the Chemnitzer Linux-Tage.
http://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2008/live/praxis/
They call it Praxis Doctor Tux its a kind of help station for problems. I worked many years there and last I was responsible for this station. So maybe I can give u some advise.
*First and important point is set information before installation. Dont force them to use a specific distro because u like this distro. Let them choose self be only a indepentant adviser
*tell the guests always what u doing and why, involve them in decissions
*there was a point here in that discussion "medias are sometimes not readable" thats mostly not the media mostly is the drive guilty. The lenses are smoothy and have problems to read burned medias. If u have one there exists cleaning sets for that problem. But with original medias ur on the better side, Another solution for that problem and not for that problem only is to use network install from an server in the internal network. Thats my first choice because u avoid not only the reading problem its much faster.
*remember after fresh installations there exists always updates. Two possibilitys run a server (can be the same tftp from the net install) or run a proxy so that not all packages have to delivered from a far server in the net.
*u see I talk about updates, installation means not to give away a fresh installed system it means give away a system with them ur guest can work. So install multimedia codecs and other stuff he needs to!
*problems with exotic hardware. Thats true there are some problems with WLAN drivers, graphic card drivers and in the last years that fingerprint reader stuff, as Sankar said. The problem changes every year so that u can not really prepared for it. The only helpful thing here is to offer a registration with the promise that they would be handeled first. So that u know who comes with what devices and u can do researches before the InstallFest
so hope that points are helpful
br gnokii
-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Sure I will do that by tomorow On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Michael Loeffler <michl@novell.com> wrote:
Moin, On Sunday 27 June 2010 17:15:36 Manu Gupta wrote:
Dear All,
I am moving this from to the project list from marketing list as Bryen suggested
Since a lot of people have done openSUSE install fests over here on the list, what were the most common problems faced during installation as this can prepare anyone for an upcoming install fest.
-- Regards MANU
Here are the replies which I got on that list. I would like more people to add their views It would be good to add the experience to the wiki so its not "buried" in the ml archive but accessible via a related topic in the wiki. Maybe here: http://en.opensuse.org/Marketing/Resources#Launch_Party_HOWTO
Best M
1.
buggy dvd!!!
I remember 10.1 (or 0?) demo dvd (official) 2 about 3 where buggy, and made the demo fault. Written dvd are also often faulty :-(
jdd
2.
HI Manu, I have myself organised the install fest and would like to tell you some of the problems we faced: Firstly If you are planning to use a projector make sure that you configure the projector settings well in advance since it usually causes trouble. Secondly,try to distribute some video tutorials for those willing to install on their desktops back home. Also try to cover more than one linux distros.Make sure you do not get into troubles with OS issues with laptops of some vendors . BTW Good luck and do ask for any other help.
3.
My experiences are humble on this field. This is the way I've done it:
1. Manpower > provided by PLUG (Portuguese Linux Users Group). 2. Merchandising > is cool to have, can be a pain if it is in low numbers due to demand. Having at least a token for everyone who shows up is good. 3. Place > depending on your audience targets, this is nice. In my case I've hired a public space with very good conditions, Aveiro's Cultural and Congress Center. Which also offered proper conditions (power plugs, ethernet infra-structure, acceses, car parking, localization, etc). 4. Sponsorship > in my case the greatest sponsor was actually SuSE GmbH (2 crates of merchandise), Sun Microsystems provided around 1K of StarOffice 5.1 CD's, Red Hat Inc provided some stickers. Most of this contacts were made using connections with people which worked for us, except for SuSE which I handled personaly because I was SuSE user. Sun Microsystems and Red Hat were contacts made through people we know on those companies which were our clients. 5. Showcase > if you can get a hardware sponsorship which can lend you some equipment for displaying stuff, this is great.
Logistics will probably be your great problem. So be prepared to commit at all levels on logistics. That was the strongest barrier we had to endure.
This was a nation wide event by the way, and we had from 400 to 500 visitors during the 2 days of the event, and people from all over the place came.
nelson.
4.
From my experience:
- Wireless not working (IOW, dont know how to connect to a secured enterprise wireless network) - Fingerprint reader not working - There is no "Refresh" menu on right-click on Desktop (yeah they say that) - Where can I download anti-virus software ? - How can I play DVD (Best solution: Install VLC) - There is no Microsoft Word ?
Sankar http://psankar.blogspot.com
5.
Excellent initiative to be asking this question. I commend you.
My guess is that most of the troubleshooting problems will be related to hardware, with prime examples being video and wireless. But many of these problems are resolvable through various solutions, depending on the specific hardware. It would be a good idea if you could gather up as much as you can and have a cd or USB of these drivers, etc. ready on hand to pop into machines at install fests.
Also, I recommend that we use the power of community experience here. While the event is something of a marketing event, the questions you are asking are more technical-oriented. Therefore, you will get the best bang for your buck if you ask the community at large to offer up their experiences, via -project mailing list. Especially since not everyone on marketing teams are technical.
Good luck and keep us posted on what you learned!
Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Marketing Team lead GNOME-A11y Outreach lead
6.
Also, use IRC if you have Internet, to help users with questions, and to show how it works :)
(but warn ahead of time people in channel that other watching conversation :)
-- Regards Rajko, - Show quoted text -
7.
InstallFests are not common in europe anymore since maybe 10years. We all here have good access to the internet here and Linux can be installed much easier as 13-15 years ago.
The only event here that make a thing thats nearby are the Chemnitzer Linux-Tage.
http://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2008/live/praxis/
They call it Praxis Doctor Tux its a kind of help station for problems. I worked many years there and last I was responsible for this station. So maybe I can give u some advise.
*First and important point is set information before installation. Dont force them to use a specific distro because u like this distro. Let them choose self be only a indepentant adviser
*tell the guests always what u doing and why, involve them in decissions
*there was a point here in that discussion "medias are sometimes not readable" thats mostly not the media mostly is the drive guilty. The lenses are smoothy and have problems to read burned medias. If u have one there exists cleaning sets for that problem. But with original medias ur on the better side, Another solution for that problem and not for that problem only is to use network install from an server in the internal network. Thats my first choice because u avoid not only the reading problem its much faster.
*remember after fresh installations there exists always updates. Two possibilitys run a server (can be the same tftp from the net install) or run a proxy so that not all packages have to delivered from a far server in the net.
*u see I talk about updates, installation means not to give away a fresh installed system it means give away a system with them ur guest can work. So install multimedia codecs and other stuff he needs to!
*problems with exotic hardware. Thats true there are some problems with WLAN drivers, graphic card drivers and in the last years that fingerprint reader stuff, as Sankar said. The problem changes every year so that u can not really prepared for it. The only helpful thing here is to offer a registration with the promise that they would be handeled first. So that u know who comes with what devices and u can do researches before the InstallFest
so hope that points are helpful
br gnokii
-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-- Regards MANU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
participants (4)
-
Malcolm -
Manu Gupta -
Michael Loeffler -
Ricardo Chung