23 Feb
2009
23 Feb
'09
7:33 p.m.
Hello,
I have thought for quite some time to the idea of building a
community-based openSUSE testing team, and this seems to be the right
time to discuss of it.
The main idea is to create a group of stable testers to deeply test
openSUSE functionalities on their machines, in order to catch annoying
bugs earlier in the development stages, allowing the fixes to be done
and tested again in a more timely and less rushed manner.
It won't be easy, we need motivated volunteers and we have a lot to
learn to do it the right way, but I think it is worth the effort, if we
want to keep faith to the guiding principles, which states openSUSE aims
to be "the most usable Linux distribution" (and not the most cutting
edge one!).
I summed up the motivations, a short problem analysis about the current
status quo, and some proposal of solution in the attached slides so you
can comment them (thanks suseROCKs for the slide template).
All suggestions (and volunteers) are more than welcome, as well as some
help from Novell people currently involved in testing/quality assurance.
As I said we need to learn. ;-)
With kind regards,
Alberto
24 Feb
24 Feb
5:55 p.m.
Mandag 23 februar 2009 19:33:42 skrev Alberto Passalacqua:
I have thought for quite some time to the idea of
building a
community-based openSUSE testing team
I'm not sure an organized team is necessary. But after the 11.1 fiasco, I plan
to apply more of a systematic and methodic approach to testing personally.
Previously I would basically just test that installation and hardware
support/detection worked on my machines - and not much more than that, taking
for granted that basic everyday stuff would work and be tested by someone
else.
But now I've started to compile a list of things I consider critical and my
intention is to test everything in that list everytime. Basic things like cd-
burning, kbluetooth, 1-click installation, updater applet, printing, home
bank, wireless, multimedia, docx-documents etc.
Hopefully the recent steps taken to improve the factory experience will mean
more and earlier testing. And hopefully for non-SLE-base releases there'll be
less post-feature-freeze experimentation and feature development, than was the
case for 11.1.
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6:36 p.m.
Thanks for your reply Martin, which is for now the only one. ;-)
Basically what you want to do is what each member of the "team" would
have to do in my opinion.
The other task for this group should be to collect information on HOW to
do testing and reporting bugs correctly, which necessarily has to
involve some Novell people at the beginning, so we can learn what they
need and write it down in a non-technical form that can be understood by
more users.
Feel free to share your list ;-)
Regards,
A.
Il giorno mar, 24/02/2009 alle 17.55 +0100, Martin Schlander ha scritto:
Mandag 23 februar 2009 19:33:42 skrev Alberto
Passalacqua:
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I have thought for quite some time to the idea of
building a
community-based openSUSE testing team
I'm not sure an organized team is necessary. But after the 11.1 fiasco, I plan
to apply more of a systematic and methodic approach to testing personally.
Previously I would basically just test that installation and hardware
support/detection worked on my machines - and not much more than that, taking
for granted that basic everyday stuff would work and be tested by someone
else.
But now I've started to compile a list of things I consider critical and my
intention is to test everything in that list everytime. Basic things like cd-
burning, kbluetooth, 1-click installation, updater applet, printing, home
bank, wireless, multimedia, docx-documents etc.
Hopefully the recent steps taken to improve the factory experience will mean
more and earlier testing. And hopefully for non-SLE-base releases there'll be
less post-feature-freeze experimentation and feature development, than was the
case for 11.1. 
25 Feb
25 Feb
1:31 a.m.
Hello,
On Tuesday 24 February 2009 18:36:44 A. Passalacqua wrote (shortened):
The other task for this group should be to collect
information on HOW to
do testing and reporting bugs correctly, which necessarily has to
involve some Novell people at the beginning, so we can learn what they
need and write it down in a non-technical form that can be understood by
more users.
Guys ... Holgi did a great job during the 11.1 testing phase and if you missed
it ... no problem! For the next release we will be more visible!
Holgi and Martin also created a IRC channel to help you with the tasks but
only a few joined! Since this channel has been created I have been there and
I still keep it alive.
So if you want to learn something about QA or testing software then join:
#opensuse-testing
Greetings,
daemon
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26 Feb
26 Feb
11:15 a.m.
On Wednesday 25 February 2009 01:31:20 Marco Michna wrote:
Hello,
On Tuesday 24 February 2009 18:36:44 A. Passalacqua wrote (shortened):
The other task for this group should be to
collect information on HOW to
do testing and reporting bugs correctly, which necessarily has to
involve some Novell people at the beginning, so we can learn what they
need and write it down in a non-technical form that can be understood by
more users.
Guys ... Holgi did a great job during the 11.1 testing phase and if you
missed it ... no problem! For the next release we will be more visible! Holgi and Martin also created a IRC channel to help
you with the tasks but
only a few joined! Since this channel has been created I have been there
and I still keep it alive.
So if you want to learn something about QA or testing software then join:
#opensuse-testing
And we have an opensuse-testing mailing list - but it only saw very little
feedback.
So, I applaud this effort, we need to work together to create some team of
testers that coordinates testing - in such a way that we now in the end what
has been tested and what not. That will allow us to say that areas are stable
- or not,
Andreas
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24 Feb
24 Feb
6:54 p.m.
Martin Schlander a écrit :
I'm not sure an organized team is necessary. But
after the 11.1 fiasco, I plan
to apply more of a systematic and methodic approach to testing personally.
mediawiki uses the last dev version on the main wikipedia web site.
Sure, Mediawiki is not as complex as openSUSE, but this is a direction
to use.
Could it be possible to have asap a working distro (no blocking bugs
for the test team computers) to use on a dayly basis? most bugs are
unexpected ones :-).
It should be possible to keep testing say, beta 2 even if factory is
still going on, it's not possible to do the same tests again and again
(if not automatized)
jdd
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25 Feb
25 Feb
1:30 a.m.
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009, jdd wrote:
Could it be possible to have asap a working distro (no
blocking bugs
for the test team computers) to use on a dayly basis? most bugs are
unexpected ones :-).
What prevents you from using FACTORY?
(Serious question. If there is anything, we should address it.)
Gerald
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7:03 a.m.
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Gerald Pfeifer <gp(a)novell.com> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009, jdd wrote:
Yes, agreed.It needs to be easier. Easier to download. Easier to
update to. Easier to do updates, and those updates need to be more
reliable (in terms, of actually downloading). Then the system should
never be completely broken, and nor packages that aren't READY for
*testing* be pushed. (put them in their own repo, until it's deemed
that they're fine, and the maintainers are looking for *testing*).
In short, try run factory as your main distro for a month -- and the
problems testers have should be pretty obvious =)
Could it be possible to have asap a working
distro (no blocking bugs
for the test team computers) to use on a dayly basis? most bugs are
unexpected ones :-).
What prevents you from using FACTORY?
(Serious question. If there is anything, we should address it.)
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11:29 a.m.
Am Mittwoch 25 Februar 2009 schrieb Eric Springer:
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Gerald Pfeifer
<gp(a)novell.com> wrote:
The system
is never completely broken. And if there is a bug affecting many,
it's our highest priority to push a fixed factory.
But e.g. a new kernel always bears a risk, same for new libzypp. We have a
test suite and it succeeeds. This is of course no guarantee that it won't
crash left and right ;(
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009, jdd wrote:
Yes, agreed.It needs to be easier. Easier to download. Easier to
update to. Easier to do updates, and those updates need to be more
reliable (in terms, of actually downloading). Then the system should
never be completely broken, and nor packages that aren't READY for
*testing* be pushed. (put them in their own repo, until it's deemed
that they're fine, and the maintainers are looking for *testing*). Could it be possible to have asap a working
distro (no blocking bugs
for the test team computers) to use on a dayly basis? most bugs are
unexpected ones :-).
What prevents you from using FACTORY?
(Serious question. If there is anything, we should address it.)
Gerald
In short, try run factory as your main distro for a month -- and the
problems testers have should be pretty obvious =)
I do. Since 10.3
Greetings, Stephan
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4:52 p.m.
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 04:03:57PM +1000, Eric Springer wrote:
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Gerald Pfeifer
<gp(a)novell.com> wrote:
We are about to see significant improvement here; with changes
implemented during the last weeks, and just hitting Factory now, Factory
should be improved in several regards:
* smaller deltas = less to download, due to "buildcompare" mechanism
(comparing built packages with previous versions for actual changes)
http://news.opensuse.org/2009/02/05/more-efficient-factory-development/
* http://download.opensuse.org/factory/ keeps the previous package
version available for a grace period. This gives ongoing
updates/downloads a chance to complete successfully, even though
Factory is being republished
E.g. in http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/oss/suse/i586/
you'll note the resulting package duplication
* new, radically improved download backend in zypper/YaST,
http://en.opensuse.org/Libzypp/Failover
http://duncan.mac-vicar.com/blog/archives/507
using aria2c and metalinks, which offers several helpful features:
- without user interaction, it deals with mirrors that are
incomplete, halfway updated or broken in some way, by simply
switching to another one
- it can download faster, using parallel connections to
multiple mirrors and maximizing bandwidth utilization
No more worries about the "best mirror"
- error checking of downloads is already while in transit; not
after downloading everything and then trying to use it.
* mirror selection with stronger exploitation network locality
If a client is in the same network as a mirror, it will automatically
be assigned to that one mirror (not just looking on country level):
http://mirrorbrain.org/news_items/2.6_network_topological_mirror_selection
A further, planned, change is to increase world-wide availability of
Factory by tighter integrating it publishing and its mirror syncing.
This altogether should make Factory tracking a pleasant experience.
At least the downloading part, which is the first step to using it ;)
What prevents you from using FACTORY?
(Serious question. If there is anything, we should address it.)
Gerald
Yes, agreed.It needs to be easier. Easier to download. Easier to
update to. Easier to do updates, and those updates need to be more
reliable (in terms, of actually downloading). [...] Then the system should
never be completely broken, and nor packages that aren't READY for
*testing* be pushed. (put them in their own repo, until it's deemed
that they're fine, and the maintainers are looking for *testing*).
In short, try run factory as your main distro for a month -- and the
problems testers have should be pretty obvious =)
Amen.
Peter
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5 p.m.
Le mercredi 25 février 2009, à 16:52 +0100, Peter Poeml a écrit :
We are about to see significant improvement here; with
changes
implemented during the last weeks, and just hitting Factory now, Factory
should be improved in several regards:
Just wondering out loud: there was also some discussion around using
deltarpm by default, I believe. Any progress there?
Vincent
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5:25 p.m.
by the way, searching to dl the factory, I found only:
Download openSUSE 11.1-RC1
so I will have to tweak to install factory?
jdd
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5:28 p.m.
jdd a écrit :
by the way, searching to dl the factory, I found
only:
Download openSUSE 11.1-RC1
so I will have to tweak to install factory?
jdd
hope it's this one:
http://download.opensuse.org/factory/iso/
warning: I don't write this to have help (I don't really need it :-),
but to show the community based test system is broken
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5:33 p.m.
jdd a écrit :
by the way, searching to dl the factory, I found
only:
Download openSUSE 11.1-RC1
so I will have to tweak to install factory?
jdd
and, by the way, the factory list is well hidden deep into the wiki.
If I remember, some month ago, it was very easy to go to testing from
the wiki main page. No more.
the faster link seems to be at the end of
http://en.opensuse.org/Factory_Distribution, under the "bug report"
section.
jdd
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5 Mar
5 Mar
2:23 p.m.
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 05:33:38PM +0100, jdd wrote:
jdd a écrit :
Yea, there are way to many "download pages" in the wiki. Some
consolidation is needed.
Anyway, the http://software.opensuse.org/developer page has been fixed
recently, and no longer points to an old RC, it correctly sends to the
factory iso directory on the download server now.
Thanks,
Peter
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by the way, searching to dl the factory, I found
only:
Download openSUSE 11.1-RC1
so I will have to tweak to install factory?
jdd
and, by the way, the factory list is well hidden deep into the wiki.
If I remember, some month ago, it was very easy to go to testing from
the wiki main page. No more.
the faster link seems to be at the end of
http://en.opensuse.org/Factory_Distribution, under the "bug report"
section.
25 Feb
25 Feb
5:43 p.m.
trying to go ahead, don't you think the Virtualbox install should be
rocksolid? this one anybody can test it and use it (may be it is
already, but this was not the case in the past)
jdd
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9:35 p.m.
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009, Eric Springer wrote:
In short, try run factory as your main distro for a
month -- and the
problems testers have should be pretty obvious =)
I've been doing this for half of last year :-), including full
distribution upgrades in hotel rooms overnight, and in general I
found this surprisingly stable.
For the last few weeks things have been somewhat, hmm, rough,
though. That's something we need to get under control, I agree.
As for your comments, I wonder whether we can make this somewhat
more concrete, actionable?
Easier to download.
What is difficult on this front with current FACTORY? Any suggestions
what you'd like to see changed? We now got smaller FACTORY updates,
which is really, really nice.
Easier to update to. Easier to do updates
Personally, I'm finding "zypper up" and to a somewhat less degree
"zypper dup" pretty easy. What are you looking for? A nicer GUI
than we currently offer?
and those updates need to be more reliable (in terms,
of actually
downloading). Then the system should never be completely broken,
and nor packages that aren't READY for *testing* be pushed.
That is a key item, absolutely. :-)
Gerald
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10:22 p.m.
Gerald Pfeifer a écrit :
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009, Eric Springer wrote:
is that possible right now? I failed to install factory from network
with the factory mini cd right now (on virtualbox)
jdd
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In short, try run factory as your main distro for
a month -- and the
problems testers have should be pretty obvious =)
I've been doing this for half of last year :-), including full
distribution upgrades in hotel rooms overnight, and in general I
found this surprisingly stable. 
26 Feb
26 Feb
12:07 a.m.
On Wednesday 25 February 2009 22:22:18 jdd wrote:
Gerald Pfeifer a écrit :
I think this is exactly the difference between the two attempts of installing.
As far as I understand Gerald (and this is exactly what I'm doing), we are
running factory all the time. Which means in detail: we installed at some
point in time (for example the machine I'm writing this on saw the last install
somewhen around the 11.0 release) and since then I usually run either "zypper
up"
or "zypper dup" roughly twice a week to keep up. If this fails, or the result
sounds
too scary (like zypper dup trying to change the architecture of 100+ packages),
I call up "yast2 sw_single" select the repositories, a package, context menu
"all in this list" and then "update if newer version available" and
look at the problems.
This is a completely different issue than trying to install a system or image from
scratch.
Any severe bug in either the instsys or any critical yast2 configuration module can block
the latter case, while you would not even see it in the former case.
One is testing the system as such (my most frequented apps still run, my desktop still
starts up during login, and so on) versus tesing the installation workflow and getting a
running
system. Both methods are very valuable, but substantially different and I can easily see
the "install from scratch" method being broken much more frequently.
For example if a kernel is updated and some out-of-tree module used on my machine does
not build any longer, then the "update-the-system" variant will most likely end
up not updating
the kernel at all and keep that for the next time when that package (the foo-kmp) has been
fixed.
The "install-from-scratch" variant would end up with some hardware not working
at all.
The same is probably true for other subtrees of packages where one library was updated
with a set of packages failing to build because of that and still requiring the old
library name.
(not trying to excuse any failure, just trying to explain here ...)
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On Wed, 25 Feb 2009, Eric Springer wrote:
is that possible right now? I failed to install factory from network
with the factory mini cd right now (on virtualbox) In short, try run factory as your main distro for
a month -- and the
problems testers have should be pretty obvious =)
I've been doing this for half of last year :-), including full
distribution upgrades in hotel rooms overnight, and in general I
found this surprisingly stable.
8:54 a.m.
Ruediger Oertel a écrit :
first: is it here (project) the place to have this discussion or is it
better in factory?
having an installable factory well documented in the wiki seems the
mandatory thing to have. I don't understand why the install don't work
on vortualbox (afaik anybody have the same hardware, there). This
should be the bare minimum, no??
jdd
NB: I installed via the 11.1 mini cd the minimal 11.1, modify the
source to factory and zypper up. all is well, but I don't have yet
tried ti boot :-( - I install kde4 before. is there any packman factory??
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is that
possible right now? I failed to install factory from network
with the factory mini cd right now (on virtualbox)
I think this is exactly the difference between the two attempts of installing.
As far as I understand Gerald (and this is exactly what I'm doing), we are
running factory all the time. 
27 Feb
27 Feb
7:16 p.m.
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Hash: SHA1
jdd wrote:
[...]
is there any packman factory??
No, at Packman we don't build against Factory.
We believe that it changes too often for that (which might be wrong, I
don't think that any of us follows Factory that closely), and we don't
have unlimited bandwidth nor enough build power to rebuild large parts
of our repository every few days. It would also be very tricky to handle
as we don't use OBS but trigger rebuilds manually instead (which is a
feature when you have a single build server instead of a farm).
cheers
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_\_v FOSDEM::7+8 Feb 2009, Brussels, http://fosdem.org
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11:01 p.m.
Pascal Bleser a écrit :
jdd wrote:
[...]
I asked this because testing need day to day use and that pacman is
nearly mandatory for any uses :-) (thanks for that :-)
But given the kind of apps pacman have, is this build necessary, or
wil the ordinary 11.1 work (mostly) with factory tree??
thanks
jdd
NB: essentially libdvdcss and lame mp3?
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is there any packman factory??
No, at Packman we don't build against Factory.
2 Mar
2 Mar
2:19 a.m.
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jdd wrote:
Pascal Bleser a écrit :
I don't know. For me, factory is _not_ for daily use, it's for testing.
I really don't see how we (packman) could keep up with the frequent
changes in factory.
jdd wrote:
[...]
I asked this because testing need day to day use and that pacman is
nearly mandatory for any uses :-) (thanks for that :-) is there any packman factory??
No, at
Packman we don't build against Factory. But given the kind of apps pacman have, is this build
necessary, or
will the ordinary 11.1 work (mostly) with factory tree??
I have no idea. Could work. Depends on the versions of packages in
factory I guess.
NB: essentially libdvdcss and lame mp3?
Mind you, we don't and we won't provide libdvdcss.
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26 Feb
26 Feb
10:08 a.m.
Am Mittwoch 25 Februar 2009 schrieb jdd:
Gerald Pfeifer a écrit :
Do read my mails - factory isos are broken. A new kernel always changes things
;(
Greetings, Stephan
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On Wed, 25 Feb 2009, Eric Springer wrote:
is that possible right now? I failed to install factory from network
with the factory mini cd right now (on virtualbox) In short, try run factory as your main distro for
a month -- and the
problems testers have should be pretty obvious =)
I've been doing this for half of last year :-), including full
distribution upgrades in hotel rooms overnight, and in general I
found this surprisingly stable.
10:40 a.m.
Stephan Kulow a écrit :
Do read my mails - factory isos are broken. A new
kernel always changes things
why have one then?? I don't understand
jdd
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25 Feb
25 Feb
8:25 a.m.
Gerald Pfeifer a écrit :
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009, jdd wrote:
the problem is that factory is always changing, adding new bugs in the
time it remove old ones, so it's not possible to have the same
platform for all the test team. How can one validate a bug?
and any people can't even install, and the system is unusable for day
to day use.
only day to day use can show most of the bugs.
I think there are two kinds of bug:
* the hardware bugs, related to the hardware can only be found with a
very large community. For this it should be enough to have some sort
of live cd with minimal install system
* the day to day working bugs (that may also be related to hardware)
that can only be found by real work. These are less distro related
(they are often related to new apps, like mozilla and flash, kdenlive
bugs... many others). For these we should have a static platform with
only security updates if any (probably better with no updates), with
the core apps, but this platform must be really installable
jdd
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Could it be possible to have asap a working
distro (no blocking bugs
for the test team computers) to use on a dayly basis? most bugs are
unexpected ones :-).
What prevents you from using FACTORY?
(Serious question. If there is anything, we should address it.) 
9:16 a.m.
On Streda 25 Február 2009 08:25:07 jdd wrote:
Gerald Pfeifer a écrit :
One thing I was trying to figure out is how to keep those bugs against Factory
valid for longer time. I want to avoid situation where a bug against Factory
is closed because nobody is able to reproduce it anymore, or even have no idea
how to reproduce it.
One suggestion I have is to use libzypp information. Do you know that if you
do 'zypper dup', libzypp will always store a testcase for this run? (I hope to
get it to keep more than one in future, but this is a start). Plus we have the
history now.
Testcase contains a snapshot of the repositories as well as the system
package-wise. So, it also contains information which packages were used when
the bug was triggered.
What we miss is an easy way how to dig that data and possibly to recreate the
situation.
Stano
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On Tue, 24 Feb 2009, jdd wrote:
the problem is that factory is always changing, adding new bugs in the
time it remove old ones, so it's not possible to have the same
platform for all the test team. How can one validate a bug? Could it be possible to have asap a working
distro (no blocking bugs
for the test team computers) to use on a dayly basis? most bugs are
unexpected ones :-).
What prevents you from using FACTORY?
(Serious question. If there is anything, we should address it.)
26 Feb
26 Feb
11:18 p.m.
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
Testcase contains a snapshot of the repositories as
well as the system
package-wise. So, it also contains information which packages were used
when the bug was triggered.
What we miss is an easy way how to dig that data and possibly to
recreate the situation.
It also would be nice to make those testcases easier to handle for
users reporting an issue. Right now one has to upload four different
files. Any chance this gets consolidated into one?
Gerald
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27 Feb
27 Feb
9:14 a.m.
Am Thursday 26 February 2009 23:18:24 schrieb Gerald Pfeifer:
It also would be nice to make those testcases easier to handle for
users reporting an issue. Right now one has to upload four different
files. Any chance this gets consolidated into one?
man 1 tar ?
Greetings, Stephan
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11:17 a.m.
On Fri, 27 Feb 2009, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Not a problem for me :-), but it would be good to have a consistent
approach to this, and why not have the tool do this to begin with?
Gerald
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It also would
be nice to make those testcases easier to handle for
users reporting an issue. Right now one has to upload four different
files. Any chance this gets consolidated into one?
man 1 tar ?
25 Feb
25 Feb
11:41 a.m.
Am Dienstag 24 Februar 2009 schrieb Martin Schlander:
Mandag 23 februar 2009 19:33:42 skrev Alberto
Passalacqua:
I would think you need a "team", so that people know where to head if
they
want to help in testing more than installation. Not everyone likes jumping on
IRC.
Greetings, Stephan
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I have thought for quite some time to the idea of
building a
community-based openSUSE testing team
I'm not sure an organized team is necessary. But after the 11.1 fiasco, I
plan to apply more of a systematic and methodic approach to testing
personally.
4:55 p.m.
Hi Coolo,
There is opensuse-testing(a)opensuse.org as a good starting point to
coordinate such a testing effort.
Best wishes,
Holgi
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[...]
I would think you need a "team", so that people know where to head if
they
want to help in testing more than installation. Not everyone likes jumping on
IRC. 
7:33 p.m.
On Wednesday 25 February 2009 09:55:26 am Holger Sickenberg wrote:
Hi Coolo,
There is opensuse-testing(a)opensuse.org as a good starting point to
coordinate such a testing effort.
Also:
http://en.opensuse.org/Testing_Team
can be good place to report on duty ;-)
Do we need introduction of interests, skills and needs?
IMHO, yes, and good place would be:
http://en.opensuse.org/Testing_Team/<user_nick>
linked from Testing Team page.
Current jobs, as I can see, would be:
Testing features.
Testing factory.
Testing updates.
Notifying people of changes on communication media [1].
Asking for help with testing.
Scanning lists for reports that need developers attention.
(or I'm on a BugBuster side already?)
[1] media:
mail lists: opensuse, opensuse-factory, opensuse-kde, opensuse-gnome,
forums: forums.opensuse.org
news: ?
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[...]
I would think you need a "team", so that people know where to head if
they want to help in testing more than installation. Not everyone likes
jumping on IRC.
26 Feb
26 Feb
10:06 a.m.
Am Mittwoch 25 Februar 2009 schrieb Holger Sickenberg:
Hi Coolo,
There is opensuse-testing(a)opensuse.org as a good starting point to
coordinate such a testing effort.
I know and you know. Many others need to know - and writing it in the beta
announcement doesn't help ;(
Greetings, Stephan
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[...]
I would think you need a "team", so that people know where to head if
they want to help in testing more than installation. Not everyone likes
jumping on IRC.
10:39 a.m.
Stephan Kulow a écrit :
frankly, there are too many mailing lists with similar scope. This
should be cleared on the wiki
jdd
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There is
opensuse-testing(a)opensuse.org as a good starting point to
coordinate such a testing effort.
I know and you know. Many others need to know - and writing it in the beta
announcement doesn't help ;(
10:41 a.m.
Am Donnerstag 26 Februar 2009 schrieb jdd:
Stephan Kulow a écrit :
frankly, there are too many mailing lists with similar scope. This
should be cleared on the wiki
No idea what this has to do with the current topic though: factory development
and status of factory is clearly belonging to opensuse-factory
Greetings, Stephan
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There is
opensuse-testing(a)opensuse.org as a good starting point to
coordinate such a testing effort.
I know and you know. Many others need to know - and writing it in the
beta announcement doesn't help ;(
11:39 a.m.
Stephan Kulow a écrit :
Am Donnerstag 26 Februar 2009 schrieb jdd:
is not the current topic about development?
The wiki is, right now, a mess about testing, factory and so on.
I see now at least three lists about development: testing, factory,
project. what is the good one?
is factory list only for programmers or also for testers? why did this
discussion start on project and was not directed to testing? do
testers need also to subscribe project and factory and opensuse and
wiki and... whatever?
could we be practical? why test openSUSE should be so complicated?
jdd
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Stephan Kulow a écrit :
frankly, there are too many mailing lists
with similar scope. This
should be cleared on the wiki
No idea what this has to do with the current topic though: factory development
and status of factory is clearly belonging to opensuse-factory There is
opensuse-testing(a)opensuse.org as a good starting point to
coordinate such a testing effort.
I know and you know. Many others need to know -
and writing it in the
beta announcement doesn't help ;( 
1:24 p.m.
Moin,
On Thursday 26 February 2009, jdd wrote:
Stephan Kulow a écrit :
Let's come back to the topic.
Alberto made a very good proposal at least imo. And the discussion
showed that different people made differenct experience - good and
not so good ones. It shows again that we're very good in offering
everything - you just need to know where or even better know an
omniscient person who knows it.
Am Donnerstag 26 Februar 2009 schrieb jdd:
is not the current topic about development? Stephan Kulow a écrit :
No idea what this has to do with the current topic though:
factory development and status of factory is clearly belonging to
opensuse-factory > There is opensuse-testing(a)opensuse.org as a
good starting
> point to coordinate such a testing effort.
I know and you know. Many others need to know - and writing it
in the beta announcement doesn't help ;(
frankly, there are too many mailing lists with similar scope.
This should be cleared on the wiki
The wiki is, right now, a mess about testing, factory and so on.
And exactly here
there is THE starting point. We need to sort the
stuff and make it easy to reach (or even intuitive) and then of
course explain testing and give guidance. And of course gather
feedback to improve testing.
Alberto perhaps Holgi and Deamon are a good starting point for the
creation of a testing team.
Best
M
I see now at least three lists about development: testing, factory,
project. what is the good one?
is factory list only for programmers or also for testers? why did
this discussion start on project and was not directed to testing?
do testers need also to subscribe project and factory and opensuse
and wiki and... whatever?
could we be practical? why test openSUSE should be so complicated?
jdd
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3:28 p.m.
is not the current topic about development?
Actually the topic is "testing", not "development". They are related,
but not exactly the same ;-)
The wiki is, right now, a mess about testing, factory
and so on.
I see now at least three lists about development: testing, factory,
project. what is the good one?
-project -> is not about development. It is about the whole openSUSE
project, its organization, initiatives, and so on.
-factory -> is about development, distribution status, new stuff.
-testing -> is to discuss about testing
why did this
discussion start on project and was not directed to testing?
For two reasons: a) I didn't know of -testing b) because it is a "new"
initiative for the project.
do
testers need also to subscribe project and factory and opensuse and
wiki and... whatever?
could we be practical? why test openSUSE should be so complicated?
Well, I often say there are too many communication media, but in this
specific case, I find the separation useful and practical to keep things
in order. Factory has a high number of posts, and also -project. The
information about testing would be lost among a lot of other messages,
so the -testing ML has a perfect reason to exist for me.
Regards,
A.
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24 Feb
24 Feb
8:09 p.m.
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Alberto Passalacqua
<alberto.passalacqua(a)tin.it> wrote:
Hello,
I have thought for quite some time to the idea of building a
community-based openSUSE testing team, and this seems to be the right
time to discuss of it.
The main idea is to create a group of stable testers to deeply test
openSUSE functionalities on their machines, in order to catch annoying
bugs earlier in the development stages, allowing the fixes to be done
and tested again in a more timely and less rushed manner.
It won't be easy, we need motivated volunteers and we have a lot to
learn to do it the right way, but I think it is worth the effort, if we
want to keep faith to the guiding principles, which states openSUSE aims
to be "the most usable Linux distribution" (and not the most cutting
edge one!).
I summed up the motivations, a short problem analysis about the current
status quo, and some proposal of solution in the attached slides so you
can comment them (thanks suseROCKs for the slide template).
All suggestions (and volunteers) are more than welcome, as well as some
help from Novell people currently involved in testing/quality assurance.
As I said we need to learn. ;-)
With kind regards,
Alberto
I have tried testing factory and also official beta/alpha releases,
but huh... they were barely installable not to mention usable. And
that's in a virtual machine where we are talking basic hardware setup
and not something new and fancy. I see you have this issue pointed out
in the presentation.
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10:48 p.m.
Ivan N. Zlatev a écrit :
I have tried testing factory and also official
beta/alpha releases,
but huh... they were barely installable not to mention usable. And
that's in a virtual machine where we are talking basic hardware setup
and not something new and fancy. I see you have this issue pointed out
in the presentation.
could it be possible to define a virtualbox image to test?
that is a preconfigured system. So we could test the working, not the
install, and use it in dayly work (most modern computers can work with
a virtual box)
jdd
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26 Feb
26 Feb
5:34 p.m.
Hi Alberto,
I have thought for quite some time to the idea of
building a
community-based openSUSE testing team, and this seems to be the right
time to discuss of it.
The main idea is to create a group of stable testers to deeply test
openSUSE functionalities on their machines, in order to catch annoying
bugs earlier in the development stages, allowing the fixes to be done
and tested again in a more timely and less rushed manner.
It won't be easy, we need motivated volunteers and we have a lot to
learn to do it the right way, but I think it is worth the effort, if we
want to keep faith to the guiding principles, which states openSUSE aims
to be "the most usable Linux distribution" (and not the most cutting
edge one!).
I summed up the motivations, a short problem analysis about the current
status quo, and some proposal of solution in the attached slides so you
can comment them (thanks suseROCKs for the slide template).
[...]
All suggestions (and volunteers) are more than welcome, as well as some
help from Novell people currently involved in testing/quality assurance.
As I said we need to learn. ;-)
Thanks a lot for bringing up this topic. I think you are right - a
Community testing team would help the openSUSE project a lot.
I'm responsible for openSUSE testing in Novell and - as some other
mentioned before - we already spent some efforts to make testing more
easier for the Community:
- http://en.opensuse.org/Testing
It's the entrance point for testing of openSUSE and includes a
"openSUSE 11.1 Feature Test Plan".
- opensuse-testing(a)opensuse.org
The mailing list to discuss and coordinate testing efforts.
- FreeNode #opensuse-testing
An IRC channel to directly get in touch with other testers.
- openSUSE 11.1 Feature Testing Day on Thursday November, 5th 2008
So you can see there are already some activities in the testing area.
Nevertheless there could be much more and I'm willing to help you and
all other Community members that are also willing to help. So feel free
to get in touch with me either directly or on own of the mailing lists.
Best wishes,
Holgi
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4338
days inactive
4348
days old
41 comments
17 participants
participants (17)
-
Alberto Passalacqua -
Andreas Jaeger -
Eric Springer -
Gerald Pfeifer -
Holger Sickenberg -
Ivan N. Zlatev -
jdd -
Marco Michna -
Martin Schlander -
Michael Loeffler -
Pascal Bleser -
Peter Poeml -
Rajko M. -
Ruediger Oertel -
Stanislav Visnovsky -
Stephan Kulow -
Vincent Untz