On 11/06/15 20:45, Per Jessen wrote:

Françoise Wybrecht wrote:

...

Slow & slow, most ppl go back to their priorities and shut up.

I agree that this mail needed more explanations on some points ... (I did many shortcuts) Since 2011 for just 1 example, I've known ppl who decided to leave openSUSE without saying a word, even goodbye ... For me, it's a pity.

We have a distinct lack of leadership. Anarchy is not great for communication & being welcoming.

thank you Per I appreciate both in their differences (bazar & cathedral), and for sure bazar has too much char. I just think that anarchy (as you said) can include communication & welcoming, could include ... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 12/06/2015 11:49, Françoise Wybrecht a écrit :

On 12/06/15 09:10, Françoise Wybrecht wrote:

...

for sure bazar has too much char.

missing :

too much charm to change.

there is much to say on the subject, but I think it's not necessary to add this to the discussion jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 13/06/2015 09:35, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger a écrit :

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Freight_Train

oh... and who is the freight train team?

As you stated above the community must own the whole thing: don't suggest that SUSE would sponsor this role.

speaking of the project, being in full control mean we have all the money controlled by the project members, as should be the infrastructure. clearly this is not the case now. Franckly, I don't think it's the moment to discuss this. Search archives for "foundation", there was even a special mailing-list for that (http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-foundation/). I was not glad of the conclusion, yet I would like better if you (you=the readers of this post) want to discuss the subject, that we try to find some democratic structure around the *project*. Would it be of some use to have the board get more power? How must we build the membership team (I'm part of it but don't really know why me and not an other), a "moderation team"? the freight train eam? by vote? designated by the board? but right now we work under the umbrella of a "benevolent dictator" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictatorship), that is "SUSE", and I guess in last resort, the decision is made by the suse people that is president of the board... jdd NB: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:OpenSUSE_and_other_distributions is not really clear at that -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Top Posting because I want to broadly address all of the topics spread across Francoise's recent 6 mailings to this mailinglist. However, before I start, I want to give very brief history lesson from my perspective which should hopefully give some context from where I am coming from. I've been involved in the Project since it started in 2005. At that time 'SUSE' (and therefore openSUSE) were owned and operated as a part of Novell. Our project was born as a continuation of the 'SUSE Linux' boxed sets, which were being de-emphasised by Novell while focus was being given to the 'SUSE Linux Enterprise' product line. When this Project started it therefore inherited a fair bit from it's past life as a corporate product. There were Novell employees who were effectively 'imposed' on the Project, for example we had a 'Program Manager' and there were roles within the Project which could ONLY be carried out by Novell employees. This general 'Novell are in charge' feeling was a source of constant pain, and even though the Project made huge strides towards improved Governance, such as when we started having a Board in 2007, the friction continued to grow. In 2011 I witnessed firsthand, both in these lists, and in person at oSC 11, this friction coming to a head, with a strong clear message from the Project that it wanted more independence and the ability to set it's own direction. It's co-incidental that at exactly this time Novell were purchased by the Attachmate Group, but I saw how this change of Corporate Leadership gave formerly-Novell, now SUSE-the-business-unit-within-Attachmate an opportunity to address those issues. This trend has continued with the recent merge of the Attachmate Group with the Microfocus Group, which has expended significant effort to respect, protect, and improve the relationship between SUSE-the-corporate sponsor and the openSUSE Project This was done without much funfair or announcements, but to be honest, I think this was a good thing as it's allowed a gradual evolution over the last 4 years. Small, incremental changes over time, which when combined add up to a dramatic difference from how things were back then. However, this recent barrage of threads show there are a number of misconceptions lurking around so here's my efforts to address them. --- So, addressing SUSE's "Dictatorship" of openSUSE, the Community Manager role, and 'just do it'. openSUSE is an independent project, run by it's community. This projects leadership body is the Board, which consists of 6 people, 5 of which are voted on by the community, with the Chairman (me) appointed by SUSE. In order to protect against any organisation having absolute control of the openSUSE Project, no organisation is allowed to have more than 2 elected Board members, meaning that even at a 'worst case' SUSE can only employ 50% of the openSUSE Projects Board Members. The current Board only has two SUSE employees (30%), me and Robert. Since joining the openSUSE Board in 2013, I cannot recall a situation where I saw any evidence that SUSE exerted any pressure on any Board member - We *all* act first as openSUSE contributors who in good faith are trying to do their best for the openSUSE Project. There is no longer an openSUSE Program Manager hired by Novell/SUSE with responsibilities to manage the openSUSE Project/Program There is no longer an openSUSE Community Manager hired by Novell/SUSE with responsibilities to manage the openSUSE Community There is no longer an openSUSE Team/Boosters hired by Novell/SUSE to provide core engineering for the openSUSE Distribution This Chairman position is the *only* position in the openSUSE Project where SUSE 'impose' a paid employee with a specific role & responsibility on the Project which cannot be shared by anyone else. And in that role, my first responsibility is to act in the best interest of the openSUSE Project as part of the openSUSE Board. In addition to that, the Chairman is meant to act bi-direction conduit, communicating the Projects needs to SUSE and visa versa. I am not a Dictator, I can think of no example where I've ordered anyone to do anything. And I would expect people to stare at me funny and tell me 'no', if I tried. I also think it's worth considering that as I was a community member without a @suse.com email address for many years, and a Board member elected by this community in 2013. I believe Management at SUSE considered that when choosing me for the role of Chairman, and I think goes a way to show the nature of the relationship they wish to have with openSUSE. openSUSE is in charge of openSUSE Every position/role in the community is open for anyone who's willing and able to do the work. (with the single exception of Chairman) In order to take a role in the openSUSE community, you need to step up and do the work. We don't vote, the Board doesn't appoint people to positions. People need to step up and say "I'm doing this, who's with me?" and then get to work doing it. SUSE contribute to openSUSE in that same way, as peers, as equals with no automatic privilege, power, or control because of their status as SUSE employees. This is how they want to operate ("Open Source is in our Genes" is not just an empty marketing slogan for the company) and in 'real terms' there are probably more SUSE employees contributing to openSUSE right now than there ever has been. But we're discussing the roles and 'nature' of their contribution to the openSUSE Project, not the number of contributors who share the same employer. If we (the openSUSE community) feel there are things lacking in our community, roles missing, jobs not getting done, it's our responsibility, not SUSE's, to find people to do them, and then actually do them. --- --- Regarding the 'Freight Train' I think the actual 'members of the Freight Train team' is not important What is important, is that the 'Freight Train' concept is a promise from SUSE is that they will take very seriously any reports that suggest SUSE is failing to "contribute to openSUSE as peers". For example, there have been 'Freight Train'-style escalations which were ultimately handled by me and the highest levels of senior management at SUSE. That's we the community need to know, SUSE (as an organisation) want to ensure it's contributes to openSUSE do not unduly impact the contributions of others to the openSUSE Project, and if there is every a conflict, it will be dealt with. --- --- Regarding Money SUSE is currently the primary financial sponsor of the openSUSE Project. In that role, they administrate the 'openSUSE Projects' money, I think they act in good faith on behalf of our Project. They do a lot of work for us which is both very boring and also very taxing (both in terms of work, and probably also actual TAX). Since 2011, they have demonstrated their ability to work with the community to give the community more involvement with how the openSUSE Project spends the money provided by SUSE, such as the TSP. Since joining the Board in 2013, I cannot think of a single example where the openSUSE Project has been prevented from spending money where we needed it (see Booth Boxes, openSUSE Asia, Hackathons, TSP as examples all originated by suggestions from the community). If there are concerns about how SUSE sponsors the openSUSE Project, I'd like to hear them and I promise to relay them to SUSE, but I don't think a major restructuring in this area would be beneficial (and who the heck would be willing to do it anyway?) --- --- Regarding TSP reimbursements (80% vs 100%) When the TSP was formed, the decision was made by the TSP Team to reimburse 80% of the travel/hotel costs. This was to preserve the concept that openSUSE contributors are making personal sacrifice to do openSUSE stuff (both in terms of time & money) and that the TSP exists to *help* those people when they need it The TSP is not a reward system for openSUSE contributions. It's not intended to remove the need for openSUSE contributors to spend money while contributing to openSUSE. The TSP exists to help make it a little easier, and requiring contributors to still spend 20% of their own money when attending events representing openSUSE, we're able to sponsor more people, which is also a good thing. The Board regularly reviews and discusses the TSP, and makes recommendations regarding its operating practices and procedures. In our last review at the beginning of this year, we recommended the reimbursement level stays at 80%, and therefore I do not expect that practice to be changed any time soon. --- --- Final Thought While I think it's a 'good thing' to have conversations like this from time to time, I think we as a Project really need to move on from the old 'us vs them' mentality. Yes, like I accept when discussing the history at the beginning of this post, I understand where some of these concerns come from, but I ask everyone to take a fresh look at actually where openSUSE is *today* and work on fixing *those* problems. And I think many of those issues we do face today are best addressed by hard work and action, and less by long discussion threads. I'd like to see more email threads proposing possible solutions to the problems people feel the Project has, rather than threads which start by asking open-ended questions about those problems. Otherwise I fear we'll just find ourselves running in circles, and that's neither fun, not productive. Regards, Richard Brown openSUSE Board Chairman On 13 June 2015 at 11:17, Françoise Wybrecht <fwybrecht@ioda-net.ch> wrote:

On 13/06/15 10:01, jdd wrote:

...

Le 13/06/2015 09:35, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger a écrit :

...

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Freight_Train

oh... and who is the freight train team?

yes +1 to who is in the team ?

thanks

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Le 13/06/2015 14:12, Richard Brown a écrit :

Top Posting because I want to broadly address all of the topics spread across Francoise's recent 6 mailings to this mailinglist.

thanks for your important clarification. May be it was something that lacked previously. the "benevolent dictator" word is not from me but from a suse people much time ago and is a practice largely spread in open source world. And I must say I know for sure that many @suse people do work also for the project on they free time (thanks to them :-). I seams anyway than the board work evolved from the origin - and I think in the right direction. jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-06-13 14:12, Richard Brown wrote: ... Thanks for the explanations :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlV8lrMACgkQja8UbcUWM1wjQAD/exsxNuUIOJ0zUhPBkEeoU4ru plfCJ80jjcwik9c57K8A/jA6tdFsNVt/ybGvMC7Lww18NSHIt0Etl7wsec53ADRW =KcnU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

I really didn't want encourage this threads continuation with more responses, but there's a few statements you throw out here which require futher comment. On 14 June 2015 at 08:33, Françoise Wybrecht <fwybrecht@ioda-net.ch> wrote:

thanks for the global answer about community organisation, (even if most of it were already clear, for me I mean).

If most of what I said was already clear for you, then I find it very strange you felt the need to simultaneously start 6 email threads on the topics I had to address in that mail.

as for example you and Robert, you don't have to answer to this list after your daywork in the middle of the night, or wait the week-end or hollidays to read some mails.

Sorry, this is nonsense. And just to make sure my opinion is clear despite my native use of English You are wrong That is incorrect No Negative I disagree I'm writing this email on a Sunday. My last response to this thread was yesterday, on a Saturday. Since being hired by SUSE I spend no less time in the evenings and weekends dealing with openSUSE stuff than I did before, and I know that you can find examples of almost every SUSE employee active on these mailinglists sending stuff outside of office hours. So please, end your misconception that all SUSE employees who contribute to openSUSE have all the time in the world to deal with long email threads. We don't As my previous email should have made clear, there are no SUSE employees with roles or responsibilities like a 'Community Manager', so theres no one being paid to deal with the mailinglists. They do it, because they want to, just like you. In many, most, if not all cases, they're making as much of a personal commitment to openSUSE as those contributors without a @suse.com email address and so this perception of 'us and them' *must* *stop* -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 14/06/15 10:26, Richard Brown wrote:

I really didn't want encourage this threads continuation with more responses, but there's a few statements you throw out here which require futher comment.

+1 Could you please stop reading things I did not write ? I said many times that I have NO problem with SUSE or "not SUSE" It's very great to have such a sponsor !! of course !!!! Did you read that : On 11/06/15 17:59, Françoise Wybrecht wrote:

"Thanks to SUSE to help openSUSE contributors AND thanks to contributors/geekos who give time and energy to do booth everywhere since 2009."

"Thanks to SUSE to help openSUSE contributors (do I have to use bold style?) On 13/06/15 14:12, Richard Brown wrote:

SUSE contribute to openSUSE in that same way, as peers, as equals with no automatic privilege, power, or control because of their status as SUSE employees.

On 14/06/15 11:24, Françoise Wybrecht wrote:

I suggested to USE the word "different" instead of equals.

Not equal but different !! That's it ! We value... ... choice. We accept and respect that there are different ways to work, different preferences for applications, environments, tools or interfaces and different goals of users and contributors. We value diversity and pluralism as a way of addressing the needs of a broad variety of people. (guiding openSUSE principle - Thanks to those who have written that so great ! we have just to remember & apply that ... or try to do our best ...) And PS about JUST DO IT (as you answered to this in the same mail) : of course it's important to DO, to DO, and to DO, but success include a balance of dreaming (imagine), thinking(analyse), feeling (or leaving it for a while), acting => résults => retrofit... OK I bring a few "usual memo-technic guide words", as from time to time, it's great to ask questions ... on strategic ways to go to a nice future. regards ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-06-14 23:52, PatrickD Garvey wrote:

Is there a curation of these Announcements/Request for help somewhere? I'm new here and I'd hate to think I need to read the complete openSUSE-project mailing list archive before I knew what was actively occurring.

Perhaps: https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Contributing https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:How_to_participate - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlV9+aIACgkQja8UbcUWM1yoHAD+NC086w+cLbRa+NgW5XusJYrS 49/B8bXqgvQiaP8FwWkA/2iQUTUtBEw/Ziu4kOcMmP+m5endBwKLQAQqZSvEMa8o =25hO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 15/06/2015 00:23, PatrickD Garvey a écrit :

I had previously discovered Portal:How_to_participate and read it. That is why I am regularly reading openSUSE-project and saw http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-05/msg00474.html and http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-05/msg00476.html

ad what is your question? jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 15/06/2015 00:35, PatrickD Garvey a écrit :

On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 3:30 PM, jdd <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:

...

Le 15/06/2015 00:23, PatrickD Garvey a écrit :

...

I had previously discovered Portal:How_to_participate and read it. That is why I am regularly reading openSUSE-project and saw http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-05/msg00474.html and http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-05/msg00476.html

ad what is your question?

I didn't have any questions about your postings, jdd. I was just using them to illustrate that I had seen some requests for help.

ok, good. Feel free to ask for anything :-) - ome discussion sometime may seems obscure for newcommers :-) jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 10:46 AM, Robert Schweikert <rjschwei@suse.com> wrote:

On 06/14/2015 06:01 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2015-06-14 23:52, PatrickD Garvey wrote:

...

Is there a curation of these Announcements/Request for help somewhere? I'm new here and I'd hate to think I need to read the complete openSUSE-project mailing list archive before I knew what was actively occurring.

Perhaps:

https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Contributing https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:How_to_participate

Sometimes there are "Calls for help" on the -project list when something specific needs doing. For example towards the end of this year yo will see a "call for help" to form the election committee for the next openSUSE Board election. Then there are announcements on - -factor and/or -packaging if maintainers decide to drop certain packages, i.e these are packages that might need a maintainer going forward.

I would think there is a benefit to cross-post those "Calls for help" and announcements on the -announce list. That is, I don't have time to monitor all the lists and the forums and the ... If your looking for help find the place everyone has agreed to watch for such requests.

However, it also very much depends on what your interests are. There is need to build a mentor program. wiki needs general tidying up, marketing is in desperate need, event organization, ..... I could go on for a while. Thus, if you are interested in helping out and know where within the project you want to contribute, but have issues finding the right people let me know off list and I will be more than happy to point you in the "right" direction ;)

Thank you, that is the most supportive response I've seen since I decided to look at this distribution after attending the mini-summit at SCaLE 13x last February. The Open Build System sounded like someone finally was applying computer automation to the challenge of operating system distribution. And OpenQA seems a logical extension. I intend to religiously read -project seeking understanding about how the project actually gets done. The discussions here have been slowly informative. I also subscribe to -doc which has few postings. I follow that in hopes of understanding the purpose and use of ActiveDoc. I'm not informed enough to ask intelligent questions about that, yet. I intend to see what the -doc archive can tell me. Ultimately, I'd like to build by own Software Defined Radio for Amateur Radio contacts around the world. For that I feel a need for a computer and operating system I can understand deeply. I don't have the time to create my own operating system for that purpose, but FLOSS seems like it solves that part of the problem.

Later, Robert

Than you, PatrickD -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 2:30 PM, PatrickD Garvey <patrickdgarveyt@gmail.com> wrote:

Ultimately, I'd like to build by own Software Defined Radio for Amateur Radio contacts around the world. For that I feel a need for a computer and operating system I can understand deeply. I don't have the time to create my own operating system for that purpose, but FLOSS seems like it solves that part of the problem.

Patrick, If you aren't aware of susestudio, you need to be. https://susestudio.com/ It is a great solution which is tightly interconnected to OBS. It is ideal for what you describe in my opinion. You can start with a openSUSE 13.2 "gold master" distro, then add or replace packages (including the kernel) by pulling new/different ones from OBS. Greg -- Greg Freemyer www.IntelligentAvatar.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 4:54 AM, Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 2:30 PM, PatrickD Garvey <patrickdgarveyt@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Ultimately, I'd like to build by own Software Defined Radio for Amateur Radio contacts around the world. For that I feel a need for a computer and operating system I can understand deeply. I don't have the time to create my own operating system for that purpose, but FLOSS seems like it solves that part of the problem.

Patrick,

If you aren't aware of susestudio, you need to be.

https://susestudio.com/

It is a great solution which is tightly interconnected to OBS. It is ideal for what you describe in my opinion.

You can start with a openSUSE 13.2 "gold master" distro, then add or replace packages (including the kernel) by pulling new/different ones from OBS.

Greg

Thank you, Greg. I was aware of SUSE Studio. I had a feeling it might be what I want to use, but I've just begun my exploration of the openSUSE ecosystem. On the SUSE Studio home page, they say "Sign in or create an account.", but don't provide a link to the usual "Terms and Conditions". Is this a for-profit offering? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/22/2015 12:49 PM, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

PatrickD Garvey - 12:06 21.06.15 wrote:

...

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 4:54 AM, Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 2:30 PM, PatrickD Garvey <patrickdgarveyt@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Ultimately, I'd like to build by own Software Defined Radio for Amateur Radio contacts around the world. For that I feel a need for a computer and operating system I can understand deeply. I don't have the time to create my own operating system for that purpose, but FLOSS seems like it solves that part of the problem. Patrick,

If you aren't aware of susestudio, you need to be.

https://susestudio.com/

It is a great solution which is tightly interconnected to OBS. It is ideal for what you describe in my opinion.

You can start with a openSUSE 13.2 "gold master" distro, then add or replace packages (including the kernel) by pulling new/different ones from OBS.

Greg Thank you, Greg. I was aware of SUSE Studio. I had a feeling it might be what I want to use, but I've just begun my exploration of the openSUSE ecosystem.

On the SUSE Studio home page, they say "Sign in or create an account.", but don't provide a link to the usual "Terms and Conditions". Is this a for-profit offering?

Not sure where terms are, but you can use same account as in bugzilla. And it is available for free.

Yes, SUSE Studio Online is for free. You can see the Terms of Use here: https://susestudio.com/user/terms_of_use When you create an account we will show the terms of use explicitly to you and you need to accept it! Christian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On June 21, 2015 12:06:19 PM PDT, PatrickD Garvey <patrickdgarveyt@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 4:54 AM, Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 2:30 PM, PatrickD Garvey <patrickdgarveyt@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Ultimately, I'd like to build by own Software Defined Radio for Amateur Radio contacts around the world. For that I feel a need for a computer and operating system I can understand deeply. I don't have the time to create my own operating system for that purpose, but FLOSS seems like it solves that part of the problem.

Patrick,

If you aren't aware of susestudio, you need to be.

https://susestudio.com/

It is a great solution which is tightly interconnected to OBS. It is ideal for what you describe in my opinion.

You can start with a openSUSE 13.2 "gold master" distro, then add or replace packages (including the kernel) by pulling new/different ones from OBS.

Greg

Thank you, Greg. I was aware of SUSE Studio. I had a feeling it might be what I want to use, but I've just begun my exploration of the openSUSE ecosystem.

On the SUSE Studio home page, they say "Sign in or create an account.", but don't provide a link to the usual "Terms and Conditions". Is this a for-profit offering?

Going from memory: if you're happy to use the opensuse logo on boot up and pull exclusively for obs (or manually uploaded open-source software), then susestudio.com is free to use.. Alternatively you can license ($$) susestudio and use it with less restrictions. Greg -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen wrote:

Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

...

On Thu, 2015-06-11 at 20:45 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Françoise Wybrecht wrote:

...

Sharing and communicating on a mailing list ... is a non-sense when we do nothing else then giving different points of vue.

Slow & slow, most ppl go back to their priorities and shut up.

I cannot change that ...and I honnestly don't know who can or could.

As said ... when we just go on talking and in fact, nothing change, everybody will logically just contribuate to the distribution, and forget the community (project). Yes, it was the fun ...

To maintain a living, thriving community, the community has to be in charge, completely. The community has to have complete ownership of their "baby". In my opinion, that is not situation at openSUSE. I am deliberately not judging whether that is good or bad, I am just observing.

Sorry about my late response, on the weekend my priorities are different :-)

...

In which parts is this not the case?

All the adminfor instance. Is anyone in the community running bugzilla for instance?

Please ignore that - I think the community _could_ help out and admin _would_ attract contributors, but I'm mostly happy for SUSE to run the admin.

YasT also appears to be in the hands of SUSE. The xen stuff also seem to be mostly handled by SUSE staff.

Add to that bugzilla triage. Kernel stuff. The recent push of version 43. systemd. I usually spend my time on internals stuff, which is where I see SUSE staff. I should go check by bugzilla list and see how many issues have solutions provided by people without a @suse.{com,de,cz} address. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.1°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On 06/14/2015 03:35 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

On 14 June 2015 at 21:20, Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:

...

Per Jessen wrote:

...

YasT also appears to be in the hands of SUSE. The xen stuff also seem to be mostly handled by SUSE staff.

Add to that bugzilla triage. Kernel stuff. The recent push of version 43. systemd. I usually spend my time on internals stuff, which is where I see SUSE staff. I should go check by bugzilla list and see how many issues have solutions provided by people without a @suse.{com,de,cz} address.

We're talking about 'control' here..are SUSE 'in charge'? Does SUSE hinder 'the ability for the community to do stuff'.

You are listing a number of examples where SUSE are doing a great deal of work, yes, but you're misrepresenting the situation if you are implying that just because SUSE are doing it, then ONLY SUSE are the ones who are allowed or able to do it.

Taking for example Yast

YaST has it's own website, with its own guide on how to contribute: http://yast.github.io/

The source is in Github

The entire team use #yast in Freenode as their day-to-day communication medium and do NOT use any internal SUSE IRC server

They could not be _more_ open If people want to contribute to YaST, they can, they just need to!

Bugzilla triage - likewise, nothing is preventing non-SUSE people from contributing. Bugzilla is there, the openSUSE bugs are listed, they can be triaged. There's no barriers, policies, or ACL's in the way.

openSUSE:42 - the whole discussion so far, whichever side of the debate you're on, ultimately boils down to an invitation to *anyone* to either work on the new way of doing regular releases, or to pickup the work on the old way of doing regular releases (because the people who used to do it are announcing their intention to work on the new idea)

I am not certain I would call it an "invitation" but in principal that is the way its is. The release manager that we have and that happens to get paid by SUSE is now going to build a distribution around SLES sources. As a contributor he has every right, just like everyone else, to work on what ever is interesting to him or whatever his employer feels like he should be working on. Why is it that we in the openSUSE community would expect this stuff should work differently for us than it does in any other open source project? How many contributions are there in the kernel from @intel.com e-mail addresses that fix issues on ARM? I bet very few if any. SUSE thinks that there is benefit to have a release based around the SLES sources. Lengthy and reasonable arguments have been made that this also happens to be a benefit to the openSUSE project. I agree there is benefit. Yes, you can look up every response I wrote in those threads and in case it is not obvious I think this is not a good idea. Well, the concept of :42 has it's target audience, and in and of itself is a good idea. But from my perspective we are vacating the middle of the spectrum by not having the current release model continue and I do not like it! However, I stated my case, the decision has been made and I cannot and do not expect that anyone else will do my bidding. It is now time to put up or shut up. If a yearly Factory snapshot based release is so important to me, and others, I/we can learn what it takes to build a release in OBS and do the work, or I can decide to get over it and use :42, or I can choose to use something else entirely. No one is being forced to do anything they don't want to just because the release manager decided that he would rather spend his time building something new. Equal rights for all contributors no matter who their employer is. Do the work and decide. Personally at this point I will contribute the packages that handle guest initialization in the cloud to :42 that I maintain and will contribute to building cloud guest images and getting them published. I don't think I will contribute the command line tool packages to :42. Anyone else is of course free to do so. :42 will certainly be enabled as a build target in all project where I have sufficient standing to do so. It is each maintainers choice what and how much they are willing to contribute to :42. There is no one standing on a podium shouting "do it or else". Neither will there be anyone that says "You cannot do it" if a team does form to produce a yearly release based on Factory snapshots.

systemd - There are contributors like Jan Englehart working on it in addition to the SUSE employed maintainers

Yes, and I would say that systemd has actually turned into a perfect example about how things can/should work. People were not happy about sitting on an old upstream version with tons of patches applied. Thus, they went and did something about it. Now we have a recent upstream tarball in Factory and fewer patches. It took a while, as those that were getting involved had a learning curve to go through but there was no one from SUSE or other that said, "no you cannot do that"

Kernel - even our kenel package has changelogs from this year from non @suse.com email addresses

So, please, stop perpetuating the myth that SUSE are somehow in control and preventing the community from doing stuff as part of the openSUSE Project. It's wrong, and it's not helpful.

Agreed. One thing that interests me in this direction is however, why people, even people that have been involved in openSUSE for a long time, still have the perception/feeling that if they do something they have to compete/fight with people that have @suse.com e-mail addresses? Why is it so hard to ignore who signs people's paycheck? Yes, as Richard outlined, in the early goings of the project it was very important, but have the actions over the past 10 years, the opening of the project, the reduction of barriers to entry,.... not shown that openSUSE is an open project where all contributions are welcome and appreciated? At some point we have to let the stuff that happened 6,7,8, years ago be water under the bridge and focus on the state of the project now. The state is that our guiding principles are very much the way we can and should be working together and that there is no over-lord that is going to make absolute decisions. Later, Robert - -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVfwVkAAoJEE4FgL32d2UkXAYH/2pu32XXafrzIGUMzNFcBPMS vvnfOULCC61bnjLk65lTfWnC296THL9xwLoc8uuhhWb9bfm5p/VINmPMxT/HLPer v3NC7V0c/A79V5Do/SDymdDFXn0eD+SdJGc20lMNaSB861Y9I2Yr7z4FwpZMjm1u K0U7UcHTjY0y6EEs2zl6fwX+wlIHwO1WZXgxom0Arz75uSaaLmw3kPn5P4UexFNN rqoXuYjcVt954C8YYipVnoewvIHCwOfT1ymmhi/JW5/SRhK3EXWRg16d1mpAN5ds BaVO/mtss78JLUMANGonQTL9SpOlIPvzdBbSFBaZCFzS4gcKu8m7Y5tOn2pUOBY= =KWGN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/15/2015 01:42 PM, jdd wrote:

Le 15/06/2015 19:03, Robert Schweikert a écrit :

...

At some point we have to let the stuff that happened 6,7,8, years ago be water under the bridge and focus on the state of the project now.

may be.

but developing is not all what have to be done,

Correct! However the same applies. Take the recent membership discussion as an example where I pleaded 4 or more times for someone to "just do it", i.e. change the page that was offensive enough to start a lengthy debate. No one stepped up. When I was sufficiently annoyed to make changes and presented those no one actually commented on the changes. People continued to discuss about whatever.... Certainly I was surprised that I had permissions to change the page, but hey I tried and it worked. I am not saying that the discussion that happened was pointless or unnecessary. The discussion brought the most important concerns to the fore and then it needed acting upon. That's where things fall down, too many people yacking and not enough people doing stuff.

and if the wiki team an marketing team are vanishing, may be it's because they feel a bit ignored?

Maybe, then those that are active in that area and recognize the problem should be doing something about it rather than waiting for others to do something about it. Later, Robert - -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVfxQOAAoJEE4FgL32d2UkqywH/iH6DLxRF26ZroBZFUqGCmBA d+QmM1W7NmVTISnbsCi/rubTTITztuJE1sNfECZYp+v6eaoTluDfPc1Oys4QNiR6 scPblihAbJtil9qh8WEYMVqUdkhdW62QcDjbj4DlIJWKRkvHuuIH8ZIE03wXLqwJ 9N93PQHbTCZP+K4Ho8Z0o0AGUucREowmxazpC9NJmChZCNr6D4zVnziD+9TQ+16X kR8z/ywGEOOilvGBhCgAyFlBejJe6N58VEsTuVXqw0HQicShCdbEdR6AxAh83k9z txWA8xVvAsW5X3xeFymH/vGCAl7GTPnJIJcBmZ9hvE6BIo7UX/Ns7nLSiUodjEI= =40Cv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hi On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 2:06 PM, Robert Schweikert <rjschwei@suse.com> wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 06/15/2015 01:42 PM, jdd wrote:

...

Le 15/06/2015 19:03, Robert Schweikert a écrit :

...

At some point we have to let the stuff that happened 6,7,8, years ago be water under the bridge and focus on the state of the project now.

may be.

but developing is not all what have to be done,

Correct! However the same applies.

Take the recent membership discussion as an example where I pleaded 4 or more times for someone to "just do it", i.e. change the page that was offensive enough to start a lengthy debate. No one stepped up. When I was sufficiently annoyed to make changes and presented those no one actually commented on the changes. People continued to discuss about whatever....

Certainly I was surprised that I had permissions to change the page, but hey I tried and it worked.

I am not saying that the discussion that happened was pointless or unnecessary. The discussion brought the most important concerns to the fore and then it needed acting upon. That's where things fall down, too many people yacking and not enough people doing stuff.

...

and if the wiki team an marketing team are vanishing, may be it's because they feel a bit ignored?

Very well said!!! This is actually like slow poisoning and a vicious circle that we are trapped into. Everyone has recognized that if called for help, the marketing will probably not help, partly because everyone is in their own world. Some have just carved out their own space and figured out areas that they are comfortable at. A quick look at the mailing lists show that : opensuse-artwork has not been active since April opensuse-wiki is well almost dead.

Maybe, then those that are active in that area and recognize the problem should be doing something about it rather than waiting for others to do something about it.

No one knows who is active anymore. Have you thought about why these teams are not working? 1. For marketing, there is no action plan, Out of the blue people are told, ok this is what is the new requirement. With every change in reschedule, the marketing list is not informed, nor is the project list where we have the non-developers too. (For example, openSUSE 42). I am not debating if it was the right decision or not, but what I am saying is we as a community are certainly not inclusive. 2. The project meeting was changed to call basis and there was no announcement at all. Not everyone follows the wiki. The people who made this decision to inform it publicly at least. 3. "Just do it!!" does not work always, I am sorry. "Just do it!!" sometimes comes off as more aggressive than it is intended to be. A better paraphrase maybe "If you are willing to do it, I can help you in getting the proper resources". I was glad that I met Bryen, who helped me around openSUSE that I helped a lot with Marketing. 4. Decision making, we bank on meritocracy right. So people who develop have a say in whatever they do. Perfectly fine, awesome, agreed. However, we are not a traditional open source project like Linux. While we have a lot of development stuff around, we need to focus heavily on : 1. Marketing 2. Artwork 3. Documentation 4. Forums and so on. If you ask the people contributing over these areas to fix a bug, the community is actually pushing these very people away. Further, involving these people only in the elections does not empower them automatically as the Board is not involved in any decision making process. However, involving them in project related changes makes them feel part of the community.

Later, Robert

- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2

iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVfxQOAAoJEE4FgL32d2UkqywH/iH6DLxRF26ZroBZFUqGCmBA d+QmM1W7NmVTISnbsCi/rubTTITztuJE1sNfECZYp+v6eaoTluDfPc1Oys4QNiR6 scPblihAbJtil9qh8WEYMVqUdkhdW62QcDjbj4DlIJWKRkvHuuIH8ZIE03wXLqwJ 9N93PQHbTCZP+K4Ho8Z0o0AGUucREowmxazpC9NJmChZCNr6D4zVnziD+9TQ+16X kR8z/ywGEOOilvGBhCgAyFlBejJe6N58VEsTuVXqw0HQicShCdbEdR6AxAh83k9z txWA8xVvAsW5X3xeFymH/vGCAl7GTPnJIJcBmZ9hvE6BIo7UX/Ns7nLSiUodjEI= =40Cv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-- Regards Manu Gupta -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/06/15 08:02, Françoise Wybrecht wrote:

PS : I am not saying that YOU Robert should do that, or even not boardmembers ... but let's accept that there is a whole (as you said) ...

it's a good start

a whole ... and a hole lol (sorry) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-06-16 15:33, Ish Sookun wrote:

I hop around from time to time on the Facebook page & read the comments to only find that people are being requested to ask the question on the forums. While on the forums, answers do not come instantly. So, I would understand those who want something quick would just toss it on Facebook.

I never read nor write on facebook. Nor on linkedlin. I don't see the purpose in multiplying communication avenues, we get spread thinner. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlWAJooACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XaCQCeLL1fhERbzeDdC0PIMD1iPFpU hLkAn0k2dNTNhR5WInBDzLPwIlrD2Uem =KCDe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 6/16/15 5:37 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I never read nor write on facebook. Nor on linkedlin. I don't see the purpose in multiplying communication avenues, we get spread thinner.

Still there are a number of people, let's call them 'new users' that are scattered on social networks. Some are also not very comfy in writing emails but simply putting a one-line comment :P It is unlikely to find 'new users' who directly subscribe to a mail list these days. Regards, -- ​Ish Sookun - Geek by birth, Linux by choice. - I blog at HACKLOG.in. https://twitter.com/IshSookun ^^ Do you tweet? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 6/16/15 6:18 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

So, they go to the forums instead. There are many users there!

Forums do not beat the social networks in terms of quick response to queries. Hmm, but it does beat in terms of quality. You would usually find a link to forums while someone replies to a facebook comment. The other way is unlikely to happen ;-)

I find those social media too intrusive, sorry. I will not contribute there my time.

I respect your opinion & your privacy. I hangout on both mailing lists & social networks, maybe not that much on forums these days. Regards, -- ​Ish Sookun - Geek by birth, Linux by choice. - I blog at HACKLOG.in. https://twitter.com/IshSookun ^^ Do you tweet? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 16/06/2015 16:18, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

you have to login into facebook,

Of course not, most of these pages are public jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 16/06/2015 16:50, Ish Sookun a écrit :

On 6/16/15 6:39 PM, jdd wrote:

...

Of course not, most of these pages are public

openSUSE pages[1][2] do not require login, but the group[3] does require. In case of the pages, you would still require an account to be able to comment ;-)

I was speaking of entreprise pages jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 16 Jun 2015 15:37:16 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I never read nor write on facebook. Nor on linkedlin. I don't see the purpose in multiplying communication avenues, we get spread thinner.

True, but you also have to - to some extent - go where the users are in order to get their attention. I'm one of the admins on the Facebook group - and for a long time, we discouraged people asking support questions in the group; Facebook just isn't well set up to be a support venue. The membership pushed back - one user even said that he felt *unwelcome* because he couldn't ask questions in the group, so he created his own openSUSE support group. So now we permit questions in the official group. If the question is going to be complex, we refer to the forums, and we strongly encourage users to search before asking simple questions. There isn't the same level of expertise in the Facebook group as on the forums. That said, if the expertise that's there meets the need, then that's OK. It sucks that that knowledge is lost, but the questions are generally pretty basic anyways - and in that regard, it's not very different from IRC in terms of the usefullness of an archive (ie, not very). The same holds true for LinkedIn - if people are asking about openSUSE there, it causes more damage to the openSUSE brand to say "no, don't ask your questions here, go to the forums or mailing lists" than it does to let some 'local' expertise answer questions and either help people or redirect the question to a better venue if there is one. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-06-16 19:43, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2015-06-16 18:44, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Tue, 16 Jun 2015 15:37:16 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I never read nor write on facebook. Nor on linkedlin. I don't see the purpose in multiplying communication avenues, we get spread thinner.

True, but you also have to - to some extent - go where the users are in order to get their attention.

...

I see, and understand. Yes, it has its usefulness. I doubt that I would personally participate there, but I see the point. Thanks.

Just had a look there. Had a look at some of the posts, then I saw a video of a cat having the fright of his life and jumping - probably the funniest video I have seen this year. :-D - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlWAZuoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WJLwCdHkvWXtpskzWwvgKpqZ0SMjfm 0CIAnjzKUj4g+NBioJdVVKERfb5Gk63C =5gRm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/16/2015 12:07 AM, Manu Gupta wrote:

Hi

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 2:06 PM, Robert Schweikert <rjschwei@suse.com> wrote:

...

On 06/15/2015 01:42 PM, jdd wrote:

...

...

...

Le 15/06/2015 19:03, Robert Schweikert a écrit :

...

At some point we have to let the stuff that happened 6,7,8, years ago be water under the bridge and focus on the state of the project now.

may be.

but developing is not all what have to be done,

Correct! However the same applies.

Take the recent membership discussion as an example where I pleaded 4 or more times for someone to "just do it", i.e. change the page that was offensive enough to start a lengthy debate. No one stepped up. When I was sufficiently annoyed to make changes and presented those no one actually commented on the changes. People continued to discuss about whatever....

Certainly I was surprised that I had permissions to change the page, but hey I tried and it worked.

I am not saying that the discussion that happened was pointless or unnecessary. The discussion brought the most important concerns to the fore and then it needed acting upon. That's where things fall down, too many people yacking and not enough people doing stuff.

...

...

...

and if the wiki team an marketing team are vanishing, may be it's because they feel a bit ignored?

...

Very well said!!! This is actually like slow poisoning and a vicious circle that we are trapped into. Everyone has recognized that if called for help, the marketing will probably not help, partly because everyone is in their own world. Some have just carved out their own space and figured out areas that they are comfortable at.

...

A quick look at the mailing lists show that : opensuse-artwork has not been active since April opensuse-wiki is well almost dead.

Maybe, then those that are active in that area and recognize the problem should be doing something about it rather than waiting for others to do something about it.

...

No one knows who is active anymore. Have you thought about why these teams are not working?

...

1. For marketing, there is no action plan, Out of the blue people are told, ok this is what is the new requirement. With every change in reschedule, the marketing list is not informed, nor is the project list where we have the non-developers too. (For example, openSUSE 42). I am not debating if it was the right decision or not, but what I am saying is we as a community are certainly not inclusive. 2. The project meeting was changed to call basis and there was no announcement at all. Not everyone follows the wiki. The people who made this decision to inform it publicly at least. 3. "Just do it!!" does not work always, I am sorry. "Just do it!!" sometimes comes off as more aggressive than it is intended to be. A better paraphrase maybe "If you are willing to do it, I can help you in getting the proper resources". I was glad that I met Bryen, who helped me around openSUSE that I helped a lot with Marketing. 4. Decision making, we bank on meritocracy right. So people who develop have a say in whatever they do. Perfectly fine, awesome, agreed. However, we are not a traditional open source project like Linux. While we have a lot of development stuff around, we need to focus heavily on : 1. Marketing 2. Artwork 3. Documentation 4. Forums and so on.

Yes, we have these different areas, no question. But why is there the strong urge to apply different principles? - - If there is a bug in the code someone has to find the energy, go investigate the problem and fix the code, it has to get done. - - If we need a marketing campaign someone, or a team, has to find the energy and put everything together. I fail to see the difference, it all boils down to a person or a group of people doing something. The impression that I get is that those that happen to contribute on the technical side of the project find the energy to go fix something while those that are interested in contributing in not so technical areas debate and try to figure out how to contribute and what "do it" actually means. Let me suggest this. All those that are interested in marketing start sending ideas about how to build marketing around "The builders choice" tag line to the marketing ML starting tomorrow. Have an idea, send it to the marketing ML, lets see if a.) we have people interested and b.) those that are interested can focus on creating something for the project. If collectively the energy spent on debating what "just do it" means would have been spend on "How do we create marketing around The builders choice?" the basic concept would probably be worked out already . Later, Robert - -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVgEr5AAoJEE4FgL32d2UkwOYH/R1MZTRz1DmEjHhAFcze1esF 4z0kwepn5XhzvrEm/Y0NOYwDMtGxEwrjUV0v9G6tgUsH4NHTCNOPMaXnu8cWCl4o SbY4qjnDqXX4h1cvyugdiH459J0ze9Y/iIgR5IziizWe9VHtUlEw8ZvCKki4azud 28HDfDIU9p2w4gZZU+aJXtnnL5PmXbcmAPzsOK25qZ4uaYYUsuwkzagH+E+jTAU3 1JJ89dN9/0oGXJDJCPyl1vlTKEWW6ETFjV9+Nf1/wAEX8WA9spjtPQGnFG3kC8Xy cYTB7f7/WUPj2caGtXjvwjP6kS8hCW/uf1ESNmRqSuZbVhfqowvt5pWC/+Hs9ao= =dDWe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 16/06/2015 18:12, Robert Schweikert a écrit :

I fail to see the difference, it all boils down to a person or a group of people doing something.

most of the time, the difference is information. most of information on new products (and this is what the marketing team have to speak) come on factory, but following factory for somebody that is not a developer is pretty hard, even with technical knowledge. I have to write release notes, it's *very* hard but I don't have more answer to solve this. However, Jos did a tremendously good job as a bridge between teams, shame he is no more here (and not replaced). jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-06-15 19:42, jdd wrote:

Le 15/06/2015 19:03, Robert Schweikert a écrit :

...

At some point we have to let the stuff that happened 6,7,8, years ago be water under the bridge and focus on the state of the project now.

may be.

but developing is not all what have to be done, and if the wiki team an marketing team are vanishing, may be it's because they feel a bit ignored?

Some of the translation teams may also disappear. Translation of Tumbleweed is not happening, it doesn't seem feasible. For years we only translated the stable release. With the sources coming from SLES, as some languages already translated at SLES, those teams may have nothing left to do. On the other hand, translations done on the 42, will probably not be applied to Tumbleweed. With time, TW will not be translated at all. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlV/U3QACgkQja8UbcUWM1wH6gD+LbAo79cAVAY/X8e9kAxjm/Pa 3XzI1BW79mpfuDNO8c4A/0nZ3BLRTH0/7hi0+91tuviBG7yy9PsNkd3E/X819Vid =Yz7K -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/15/2015 02:35 PM, Angelos Tzotsos wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

I am not certain I would call it an "invitation" but in principal that is the way its is. The release manager that we have and that happens to get paid by SUSE is now going to build a distribution around SLES sources. As a contributor he has every right, just like everyone else, to work on what ever is interesting to him or whatever his employer feels like he should be working on.

Why is it that we in the openSUSE community would expect this stuff should work differently for us than it does in any other open source project? How many contributions are there in the kernel from @intel.com e-mail addresses that fix issues on ARM? I bet very few if any. SUSE thinks that there is benefit to have a release based around the SLES sources. Lengthy and reasonable arguments have been made that this also happens to be a benefit to the openSUSE project. I agree there is benefit. Yes, you can look up every response I wrote in those threads and in case it is not obvious I think this is not a good idea. Well, the concept of :42 has it's target audience, and in and of itself is a good idea. But from my perspective we are vacating the middle of the spectrum by not having the current release model continue and I do not like it! However, I stated my case, the decision has been made and I cannot and do not expect that anyone else will do my bidding. It is now time to put up or shut up. If a yearly Factory snapshot based release is so important to me, and others, I/we can learn what it takes to build a release in OBS and do the work, or I can decide to get over it and use :42, or I can choose to use something else entirely. No one is being forced to do anything they don't want to just because the release manager decided that he would rather spend his time building something new. What if there was a team of people from the community wanting to continue the previous release model? We would have openSUSE 42.1 and openSUSE 13.3? My point is: who gives the power to one group of

On 06/15/2015 08:03 PM, Robert Schweikert wrote: people to use the openSUSE name for their new distribution without a vote from the members or at least a board decision through an open process?

The process is open and Stephan tried to start the name discussion [1]. However it quickly drifted away and focused on something else.

It could be named openSLES or something...

I guess it would be fair to start a discussion about the name with a message that only focuses on the name and nothing else. Later, Robert [1] http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-06/msg00203.html - -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVfx9IAAoJEE4FgL32d2Ukmi4H/2Z2KXILbJF8290IUiOhyRK4 qtZFGnq2Wo88AULLfDfSDL/19o6SPQ/itY6lrX307sj/fTMviwwwDArcoCW6kpeB /InazQOOAwIVKIaQlD08GMBm8elYs7o2XmbnPpU5ONzDedzxlUWXlAzdTry+3x0G dQwPy9iqdeDrMYTKkJd+mafHJC9eG9OHoTNflnyW6TwawKz902TsMvmXMCc8Q1sh 3FFlmVKp0Qf222ivoHSuZfezMz+//XV+P9xsjB8lCp2J6EgW5wATkdd48mMSy92i SKsS/gYQwJFDDlDA+rjZKG3jCuOVas9iuy9efi6s9ZjJcpnQ+WA1R6oejJ2j4U8= =rllK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hi! After Angelos Tzotsos suggested "openSLES" as the name for the new release, Robert Schweikert wrote "I guess it would be fair to start a discussion about the name with a message that only focuses on the name and nothing else." So how about Oak? It's a solid tree, it fits with the green theme and it will give us: * openSUSE Tumbleweed * openSUSE Oak -- Rolf -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-06-16 08:15, Rolf Riis Bjørnsen wrote:

Hi!

After Angelos Tzotsos suggested "openSLES" as the name for the new release, Robert Schweikert wrote "I guess it would be fair to start a discussion about the name with a message that only focuses on the name and nothing else."

Fine, but do it as a new thread, not as branch of a previous thread. Things will be very difficult to follow as a branch. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlWABqkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UtLQCfeYCBcyumNSPUwh6t7Fx2JVPM EpcAmQFpQrh4PzEc+76kgXrGPLrLDKRG =FwCu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/15/2015 09:54 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

On 15 June 2015 at 20:35, Angelos Tzotsos <gcpp.kalxas@gmail.com> wrote:

...

What if there was a team of people from the community wanting to continue the previous release model? We would have openSUSE 42.1 and openSUSE 13.3? My point is: who gives the power to one group of people to use the openSUSE name for their new distribution without a vote from the members or at least a board decision through an open process? We're really talking about theoreticals here aren't we? Is it worth expending too many neurons on possible problems?

Yes it is theoretical. I am asking this because I feel it should be clear how decisions are made, so to protect the project, obviously not from Stephan, but from having a precedent that could cause a project split/fork in the future.

But, to humour your question and use the theoretical example and an illustrative for openSUSE should work, it's actually simple.

Those involved in actually doing the work should be the ones who, collaboratively, come up with a solution, among themselves.

"Those who do, decide"

All members do (or have done in the past), we already discussed that on another thread ;)

If we end up with three distributions (Tumbleweed, openSUSE:42, and openSUSE 13.3) then, obviously the naming for 42 and 13.3 becomes a big issue. I'd expect the parties involved with openSUSE:42 and openSUSE 13.3 to figure it out between them, they're smart people, they don't want there to be confusion about the names for the things they're working on. I see no need to burden or complicate the situation by imposing either a large process (a member vote) or a small process (the openSUSE Board) into the decision making?

Actually I would expect the Board to step in to protect the openSUSE name in such occasion.

Only *IF* such a collaboration, for whatever reason, proves impossible, should the Board get involved..that's our job..

and if the Board is unable to mediate/encourage or otherwise resolve the situation between those two theoretical parties in this theoretical example, would an option like a Membership vote make sense as a possible solution to the issue.

ok, agreed.

...

It could be named openSLES or something... No, it couldn't, SLES is a registered trademark :)

ok, it was just an example :) Best, Angelos -- Angelos Tzotsos Remote Sensing Laboratory National Technical University of Athens http://users.ntua.gr/tzotsos -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-06-15 20:54, Richard Brown wrote:

On 15 June 2015 at 20:35, Angelos Tzotsos <> wrote:

...

It could be named openSLES or something...

No, it couldn't, SLES is a registered trademark :)

So is openSUSE... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlV/QrwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W2NQCeMftkByYbbGSOadmdne5/A2Tu 8OwAnioyJMov3Tk0jgM1hr6ZIigpMNOz =lIFN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/14/2015 02:41 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

...

On Thu, 2015-06-11 at 20:45 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Françoise Wybrecht wrote:

...

Sharing and communicating on a mailing list ... is a non-sense when we do nothing else then giving different points of vue.

Slow & slow, most ppl go back to their priorities and shut up.

I cannot change that ...and I honnestly don't know who can or could.

As said ... when we just go on talking and in fact, nothing change, everybody will logically just contribuate to the distribution, and forget the community (project). Yes, it was the fun ...

To maintain a living, thriving community, the community has to be in charge, completely. The community has to have complete ownership of their "baby". In my opinion, that is not situation at openSUSE. I am deliberately not judging whether that is good or bad, I am just observing.

Sorry about my late response, on the weekend my priorities are different :-)

...

In which parts is this not the case?

All the admin for instance. Is anyone in the community running bugzilla for instance?

No, does anyone care to? Now I wish I had not deleted the response I had written up to jdd's message that went in the same direction over the weekend. Thus, I get to type it again, and I will send it this time ;) Maintaining infrastructure does not only cost money for the hardware, it also takes people to maintain it. If you find a sponsor that is willing to host all the machines and hand over the keys to the data center I doubt there would be a big revolt at SUSE. SUSE as the primary sponsor is not willing to hand over the keys to the data center and that is their prerogative. OBS is reasonably easy to move, it could also run in AWS, or GCE, all it takes is to find someone who is willing to pay the bill. However, consider that we do not have enough people to maintain core packages, be release managers, administer the few infrastructure pieces that we do have, openSUSE Planet, openSUSE Connect.... including stuff that was turned off and no one complained about it being gone ;) There is not a board meeting I can remember where we have not talked about turning off things that are not maintained at the administration level. There are guidelines where anyone can run stuff for opensuse.org and get root access to a VM. Lars has given talks about this at oSC over the last couple of years. Yet, no one has stepped up to actually do the work. Despite this we get people complaining about "we don't control bugzilla", "we don't control the infrastructure", blah blah blah. The fact is that we as the community do not have enough fingers on the keyboard to do all the things that it would actually take to keep the ship afloat. Take a look at the wiki.... I know what I am saying is not going to be very popular, but those are the facts. Thus, rather than complain we should every now and then say THANK YOU for all the services that our primary sponsor provides, that are not measured in dollar signs, rather then complain about the work that is being done that we do not have anyone in the community to do in the first place.

YasT also appears to be in the hands of SUSE.

How so? https://github.com/yast/yast-yast2 Anyone can contribute. SUSE reserve the right to decide what goes into the Enterprise distribution, of course, just as SUSE reserves the right to decide whether to ship code from project A or B in the enterprise distribution. There was a concerted effort by the YaST team over the last couple of years to eliminate the barriers to entry. YCP was pretty much, or by now completely, eliminated. Much of the core pars were re-written to decouple the code and make it more modular all in an effort to make it possible for people to contribute more easily and lower the burden of entry. If SUSE would have wanted to "hold on" to YaST non of these efforts would have been necessary. Just keeping YCP around would have been enough to scare anyone off. It would be nice to get rid off these misconceptions somehow. YaST is just like every other open source project, of course in order to contribute you have to get your pull requests past the committers, but how is that different than for glibc, gcc, any given Perl, Python you name it module?

The xen stuff also seem to be mostly handled by SUSE staff.

I am certain that the people working on Xen and maintaining the openSUSE Xen stuff will not complain if someone with a non @suse.com e-mail address steps in and helps out or does it all for that matter. There is a concerted effort to push all the SUSE patches we carry for Xen upstream. Jump right in and I bet you the people that are working on this will not scream bloody murder. Some of the patches we carry have actually been taken by people in the upstream Xen community modified and pushed upstream. Low and behold there was no yelling or complaining from anyone with an@suse.com address about this.

...

The only SUSE appointed role is the chairman of the board. Everything else is up for take by any volunteer and in case of conflicting views, where 'non-suse' feels 'suse' is pushing beyond reason, we have the freight train https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Freight_Train

...

...

And for sure, openSUSE project have many forces and quality, but not communication & welcoming. That's it.

We have a distinct lack of leadership. Anarchy is not great for communication & being welcoming.

As above you state the community has to be in control: do you want to assume the role?

No, I don't want to own the project as a whole, but I'd be happy to assume ownership and dedicate my time to those bits where I feel qualified.

Great, step right in, there are plenty of holes to fill if you need help finding the holes let me know and I'll be happy to help you identify them. Later, Robert - -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVftt1AAoJEE4FgL32d2UkkfAIAJr4ipMqGzY1tIMQfNmb8Uvj tvZ06657Mr8cmtytyGxXN1KemSjFjRTi7J6wFTa6wWXNR25IJLhR5JxYlisNGpCD ntuCVIIPg46RLvNMEMmmlQRczoyPOsY714lzqG33F5zxEo1Nm9l/OlQhKC4aezoD Dlk9LOh/jUgkNBHjhQp75cbc1KkAJ+LC2ByA5jObvlaOvDkrXi/ObiVqV796pn/Q 1Zl2fz+hFuLG3oHg5YOf8tRlL69lcZuEDHHzELczvMKtneF5AlpvYN+mnXO+FmwW AZH0b9r3KVX+FrH3mY0/VMaJsBFacj20Ga3fcLoBVyeiml391M5gzU6ts8h14zE= =tQ16 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/15/2015 10:52 AM, Efstathios Iosifidis wrote:

Hello,

2015-06-15 17:04 GMT+03:00 Robert Schweikert <rjschwei@suse.com>:

...

There are guidelines where anyone can run stuff for opensuse.org and get root access to a VM. Lars has given talks about this at oSC over the last couple of years. Yet, no one has stepped up to actually do the work. Despite this we get people complaining about "we don't control bugzilla", "we don't control the infrastructure", blah blah blah. The fact is that we as the community do not have enough fingers on the keyboard to do all the things that it would actually take to keep the ship afloat. Take a look at the wiki....

Regarding that, a friend who became openSUSE member stepped up to help admins to maintain various things but they didn't let him help. Not sure what exactly they replied to him but it was something like "if you're not SUSE employee, you cannot help us". He can verify that himself (when he sees this mail).

Yes, there are certain things where no one can/is allowed to help. As I wrote, SUSE is not going to hand over the keys to the data center". However there are plenty of admin things that can be done. Later, Robert - -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVfwYPAAoJEE4FgL32d2Ukl+gH/1d8v/8YOGZL5RB2xl0JvViR /RL8lW0yCNNR+SUEJ26rY9aTcy03xxiLohwzIfMNyIMQZrZzgfD1M9caYNRNcxav ey8QxySNW7lABpc3fXRXlm7yKrngC3+MgsnBTS2y63CrEVkM2u2HLElY9PdQtBD6 xNv/4j7Sd4K9gkoXWhnUNT2yNqAi95t4akjoIbTLNVfCXy9vqFwUO/N1Z3ifJWTb kwxvH1e71OM0pMJvepNrE76NtGB1rRLyYBYUsspd65mxQgSvNpqEYHHtJgyWjXiS LjAXL5Z9BvlvUuezRJ0PrpCueewHiIhknDWcUvqoqrVLwg1fsh/uurxFZuy4K+g= =S462 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/16/2015 03:12 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Robert Schweikert wrote:

...

Yes, there are certain things where no one can/is allowed to help. As I wrote, SUSE is not going to hand over the keys to the data center". However there are plenty of admin things that can be done.

Please post a link to the todo list. I am well-versed in postfix, dovecot, apache, iscsi, lvm, nfs, bind, spamassassin, ssl, lvs, pxe, snmp, xen, php, mysql, networking, firewalls. I write C and assembler code (x86, s390, z80) and occasionally some php+javascript.

I have sent introductory e-mails to Lars and some of his team, with you in CC of course. Lars has a much better overview of where helping hands are needed. I am not certain the work is organized in to do lists, what I do know is that the team uses progress to track requests and issues. I expect that you will hear from them in the next couple of days. Later, Robert - -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVgH//AAoJEE4FgL32d2UkYUYIAKRhO4VknndAUYWdMEWGQYqt BfQGssvV9ZY9s5GrHODNwT8LEPrDYEW4MyMrrJGsC4D1xZVhnt0IYN8SVDeOjmhU 279RI6BjQlpMZDvl4bixraWY1Y4kjv0XDycMKQAkIeGpliY71ceOoLZTVj6+EnrT qrdtAeX63NY99F0QzpkuoDnE5i7DWYBHGtLE1RzMOgjoUfeRqWoovjtprmSm92xl cC+DY9iJkMCEJTqWkeTnumP6ZkNC1arU6u/Ym8nzrf+jAkhXIVLOrCnoK230DcEn CTlZLXwqhILu10Url2VtqHLaRaiK5QmqOaYF1GwZUDcVadoBHQJfAMflQ7xo7J4= =qdfb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/15/2015 10:59 AM, jdd wrote:

Le 15/06/2015 16:04, Robert Schweikert a écrit :

...

Great, step right in, there are plenty of holes to fill if you need help finding the holes let me know and I'll be happy to help you identify them.

IMHO you are not covering the subject.

All what you describe is exact, and it have a measurable cost for SUSE. As our main sponsor, SUSE could give to the community the corresponding money, in place of doing the job.

Why? What would the benefit to the company be? Everything is a two way street. While there is cost to SUSE to do what is being done there is also a benefit or there would be no money, no help, no .... The same will be true for any other sponsor one might find. Lets look at The Linux Foundation (LF) as an example. LF is funded by hundreds of member companies (the pay to show you care membership model) and those funds pay the salaries of Linus and Greg as the most prominent kernel hackers. Do you think these companies spend the money to be an LF member out of the "goodness of their heart"? They do not. They spend the money because they believe there is a benefit and a return to being a member of the LF. There is a benefit to SUSE and there are personal attachments to the project for many people inside of SUSE.

so the community could manage the money and do the same job, may be differently.

*do not think I ask for this*. It would be a hard move, full of dangers, and not to be done - if done at all - without extreme caution, but the fact is SUSE likes better to work like it works now.

Sorry, and I can certainly not claim to be the authority on this but, this is simply a blatantly over reaching assumption and nothing else. It works the way it does because this is the way it works for SUSE, NOT because this is the way it has to be. Anyone is welcome to show up with a sponsor, or be a personal sponsor, that is willing to host part of or all of the infrastructure. The few sponsors we have that give us hardware are generally quiet happy to ship the machine(s) to Nuremberg and then forget about it and let someone else have the maintenance cost. If anyone is willing to host the machines at their house I am certain that arrangements can be made to get the machines shipped there. And by the way, please be prepared to explain to everyone that contributes to the openSUSE project why you will not give them a key to your house. Although it may appear that this is of utmost importance to the success of the project.

What we see now is that SUSE acts in very open way, probably more open than anybody in the project expected it to be. Thanks SUSE.

Still having only one real big sponsor is a difficult situation,

Yes, I bet you will find no one that will disagree with this. There is also nothing in the way of someone else stepping in as a sponsor, and we do have a few. Some of those do not show up as a sponsor as they do not wish to be mentioned.

specially when this sponsor is sold every year to a new owner, but life is made like this.

Well MicroFocus is a bigger public company that has in previous years successfully fought off private equity take over attempts. Thus, there is hope that the current arrangement will be stable for a while.

trying to go back to usefull stuff :-)->

I would like to have the membership official "search for infos" menus added to the "opensuse members"

https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/groups/111/opensuse-members/

and "geekos"

https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/groups/112/geekos/

groups

I don't know if I'm clear :-(. I would like to have for each of the said grups a page like this one:

https://connect.opensuse.org/mod/groups/membershipreq.php?group_guid=1

11

(this page is restricted access, but I hope the board can read it)

no emergency...

I don't get it, you are part of the membership team, go do it! Check with the rest of the group and get it done. If you need technical help I am certain Michal will help. I think he is left holding the stick on the connect development side. Do it, don't ask others to do it for you. Later, Robert - -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVfwzjAAoJEE4FgL32d2Ukz/YH/32WhLt59scArfXJEO2B0stM 9OgaFb0A2mZAwGZzoM5jz6wwnUygMA+JALwj9xOR4urdsP8xCCvr9OQLr/4bEmb+ 19UIMMxrP/mKnRRwI/+Zhk0XpPom9qkgiB9rlriWArId1xYOky0bffuYyEH3GIQg lG6qwvFszVfxhZrCdse4dAkpxBsRsKzRLDQ/OA51mBLhBKIfnScVWC9aB7vuwxH3 Pmrqpv+5fGXg9B55H67g4+XqFppmxOp2DPlpuoNummN+MvJCPgN4IV8QMRnxctuH XEiQiScRy9EfGrLKz6mWndz/pRINIw1/fWGZeQIxZ4HuWuo0AH5nvl5uEvK3XgM= =68oa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/15/2015 01:50 PM, jdd wrote:

Le 15/06/2015 19:35, Robert Schweikert a écrit :

...

I don't get it, you are part of the membership team, go do it! Check with the rest of the group and get it done. If you need technical help I am certain Michal will help. I think he is left holding the stick on the connect development side.

Do it, don't ask others to do it for you.

I have no admin right on connect to do such thing, nor I know who have them.

There is a universal answer to this. Send an e-mail to admin at o.o

lack of communication, again.

and I need to know if other people want also this to be done. Not so obvious .

Well, but the other people would primarily be the membership team and not everyone that is on -project.

I will summarize on this after my vacations, end of july.

but ask you a question: do the way you answer make people contribute to openSUSE or go away to an other distro...

I don't know. The tone of my answers is directly related to my annoyance factor. The more people yack and the less that is being done the more annoyed I will get and thus the tone of my replies will deteriorate. Sorry. However, since I am apparently expected to deal with, and tolerate a never ending flood of e-mails about every topic around the project without anything being done about it, I guess I think it is fair of me to expect that other people deal with the deteriorating tone of my messages. Later, Robert - -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVfxYZAAoJEE4FgL32d2UktT8IAKM49jJbqm+XTx/vzyydVyxh KKz2H/nTGFfdRKzw5jakN6D1lUv1GOEACSASccoLTsz9PWcLTMx1caQ4u/Qu9z2l kmgQC83QoBxl930Jjojbarr+QWac1RMtqoYSN1u9uzJs2QlZHo2cJJEXJTQcSiAi 0iVc7grB4lnt5aeo8zosidn9hjVT+gpBdVSBm4edAKYqBOStmYMxuwTxdm/0HKZ6 J6x9fZUr+34yysYu4fPQ7ODs6ja0aLPQumdMFwyENbOCv4bEqGuitFbevNSk/8nm suDAmMa+4RrM4+kJTnVTtZ19PONIQsWgseIZ1VA0Q8ekrs5LarSCyUqVHLepzyQ= =FRUM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

jdd - 20:20 15.06.15 wrote:

...

never ending flood of e-mails about every topic around the project without anything being done about it, I guess I think it is fair of me

I think we do not see "doing" as the same thing. Writing here *is* doing something. Writing in the wiki without discussion is not.

Writing to wiki *is* doing. And it's wiki! It's not carved in stone, anybody can change it back again. Off course, some common sense applies, like not writing that you are ultimate king of openSUSE and every user has to buy you a beer, but in general regarding outdated information, howtos and similar, anybody can and should change it and fix it. And discussing what would we do if we would won lottery and got billion bucks might be interesting, but I don't consider it doing. And looks like we have some of those recently - like there is nobody doing what I want to be done, there is no other company putting effort in openSUSE, there are same old people employed by SUSE doing important stuff for me but I want somebody new to take care of me... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 16.06.2015 08:53, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

jdd - 19:50 15.06.15 wrote:

...

Le 15/06/2015 19:35, Robert Schweikert a écrit :

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Connect

Yep, contacting boosters team is outdated, rest should somehow be applicable.

Fixed that quickly. Klaas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 15/06/2015 17:24, Jim Henderson a écrit :

affairs (how many times do we have to point out that Micro Focus is the new owner of SUSE and that, no, the Micro Focus login is /not/ someone trying to steal your information?).

where do you see Micro-Focus login?? I just log in the forum and didn't see it, but SUSE one. and in fact having SUSE there is a progress - I remember Novell having at first work copyied Novell everywhere... why can't we have an openSUSE logo/login, whatever will be the real system under the hood? and I really find having companies buying SUSE/openSUSE every while pretty disturbing, each time we have to figure out what will happen to openSUSE and it is not easy, as the info do not spread that well. that said It seems the owners do really appreciate SUSE/openSUSE, and at each buy seems to appreciate it better, I hope I'm right :-) But I don't see it different than what the @suse people live, I guess it would be them the first victims if victims they should be :-( jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 08:52:19PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Jim Henderson wrote:

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Our sponsor provides us with a secure infrastructure. I don't hear anyone saying they're willing to step up and take on the challenges of managing the infrastructure

I'm very happy to do that. Where do I sign up?

Join us on #opensuse-admin on Freenode. Theo

Theo Chatzimichos wrote:

On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 08:52:19PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

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Jim Henderson wrote:

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Our sponsor provides us with a secure infrastructure. I don't hear anyone saying they're willing to step up and take on the challenges of managing the infrastructure

I'm very happy to do that. Where do I sign up?

Join us on #opensuse-admin on Freenode.

Theo

Hi Theo is there a mailing list too? I hardly ever use IRC. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.9°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Robert Schweikert wrote:

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On 06/14/2015 02:41 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

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Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

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On Thu, 2015-06-11 at 20:45 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

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Françoise Wybrecht wrote:

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Sharing and communicating on a mailing list ... is a non-sense when we do nothing else then giving different points of vue.

Slow & slow, most ppl go back to their priorities and shut up.

I cannot change that ...and I honnestly don't know who can or could.

As said ... when we just go on talking and in fact, nothing change, everybody will logically just contribuate to the distribution, and forget the community (project). Yes, it was the fun ...

To maintain a living, thriving community, the community has to be in charge, completely. The community has to have complete ownership of their "baby". In my opinion, that is not situation at openSUSE. I am deliberately not judging whether that is good or bad, I am just observing.

Sorry about my late response, on the weekend my priorities are different :-)

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In which parts is this not the case?

All the admin for instance. Is anyone in the community running bugzilla for instance?

No, does anyone care to?

Over the years, I am pretty certain I have offered to do admin a number at least twice. Not bugzilla specifically, anything really. I have also proposed donating hardware to e.g. OBS, but that's not acceptable either unless it comes delivered by truck or in the form of a cheque.

Maintaining infrastructure does not only cost money for the hardware, it also takes people to maintain it. If you find a sponsor that is willing to host all the machines and hand over the keys to the data center I doubt there would be a big revolt at SUSE.

We know "it also takes people to maintain it", yet volunteers from the community are not accepted.

There is not a board meeting I can remember where we have not talked about turning off things that are not maintained at the administration level.

TBH, I don't recall seeing that in the minutes ever. My mistake, I'll have to reread them.

There are guidelines where anyone can run stuff for opensuse.org and get root access to a VM. Lars has given talks about this at oSC over the last couple of years. Yet, no one has stepped up to actually do the work.

Where is the todo-list where one can sign up? As I said, I am pretty certain I have offered my help more than once.

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YasT also appears to be in the hands of SUSE.

How so?

Robert, I responded with a couple of examples where the community is clearly not "in complete ownership of their "baby"". That's all. I totally appreciate that e.g. yast and xen are open to contributors, but that's a far cry from complete community ownership. If you can point us to non-SUSE contributors to YaST, I agree that YasT is not entirely in the hands of SUSE. I did in fact once offer to maintain the LILO section of the bootloader module, but then LILO was deprecated, well .... the same thing happened for JFS fileystem support in the partitioner. There was never any call for help, btw.

It would be nice to get rid off these misconceptions somehow.

More openness and transparency would be probably help a lot, but that's a broken record if I've ever heard one.

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No, I don't want to own the project as a whole, but I'd be happy to assume ownership and dedicate my time to those bits where I feel qualified.

Great, step right in, there are plenty of holes to fill if you need help finding the holes let me know and I'll be happy to help you identify them.

Just point me to the todo list. I asked about that one about a month ago - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-05/msg00164.html When I subsequently asked how to join the release team, there were no answers: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-05/msg00425.html -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.3°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Robert Schweikert wrote:

On 06/16/2015 02:51 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

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Robert Schweikert wrote:

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On 06/14/2015 02:41 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

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Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

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On Thu, 2015-06-11 at 20:45 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

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To maintain a living, thriving community, the community has to be in charge, completely. The community has to have complete ownership of their "baby". In my opinion, that is not situation at openSUSE. I am deliberately not judging whether that is good or bad, I am just observing.

Sorry about my late response, on the weekend my priorities are different :-)

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In which parts is this not the case?

All the admin for instance. Is anyone in the community running bugzilla for instance?

No, does anyone care to?

Over the years, I am pretty certain I have offered to do admin a number at least twice. Not bugzilla specifically, anything really. I have also proposed donating hardware to e.g. OBS, but that's not acceptable either unless it comes delivered by truck or in the form of a cheque.

Yes, a "drop it off" arrangement would be difficult, but I am pretty certain we could cover the shipping cost with "local reimbursement" money, then the hardware would get delivered with a truck ;)

I understand that the "local reimbursement" program was suspended for a while, but it is back and it should be used for things that benefit the project.

AFAIR, it's been quite a while since I made that proposal. I think my main initial intention/suggestion was to donate cycles, but when that wasn't possible/accepted, I suggested donating some physical servers that were being decommissioned. The cost in commercially shipping 500kg of 2nd hand computer hardware across an EU/non-EU border just didn't make it feasible at the time. I think the suggested alternative was "buy us some new servers instead" :-)

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Maintaining infrastructure does not only cost money for the hardware, it also takes people to maintain it. If you find a sponsor that is willing to host all the machines and hand over the keys to the data center I doubt there would be a big revolt at SUSE.

We know "it also takes people to maintain it", yet volunteers from the community are not accepted.

Yes, for certain levels this is correct. Again, no one should expect that SUSE will hand over the keys to the data center.

Completely appreciated and understood. Now, how about the other levels?

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There is not a board meeting I can remember where we have not talked about turning off things that are not maintained at the administration level.

TBH, I don't recall seeing that in the minutes ever. My mistake, I'll have to reread them.

- From the meeting minutes of the board face to face meeting last year:

"""" 6. Meeting with Lars

I have to comment - I see those minutes were posted to https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_meeting, but I don't see them posted to the opensuse-project mailing list where project meeting minutes usually go. Maybe my mistake, but I honestly can't be bothered to go polling miscellaneous websites to find stuff to do. Just as I don't go looking for opensuse "announcements" on people's personal blogs. --> openSUSE communication issue. [snip - totally relevant]

+ It is perceived by Lars that one problem of the lack of infrastructure maintainership is the lack of experience/knowledge

Plus a complete lack of call for help.

Lars and his team are available to mentor people that are interested in maintaining an openSUSE infrastructure service """""

Sorry the cut and past is ugly, I did try to make it little more readabl e.

No worries. I detest web design/work, but a part from that, I could probably have helped with some of those issues. Quite honestly, it sounds like a classic example of inept openSUSE communication. No calls for help, no request for a new maintainer, minutes only posted to a website. --> openSUSE communication issue.

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There are guidelines where anyone can run stuff for opensuse.org and get root access to a VM. Lars has given talks about this at oSC over the last couple of years. Yet, no one has stepped up to actually do the work.

Where is the todo-list where one can sign up? As I said, I am pretty certain I have offered my help more than once.

I'll hook you up with Lars and team in a separate e-mail. Thank you.

I'm looking forward to that, we'll see if there's anything I can do.

Things have changed, as I said, we need to let water under the bridge be exactly that.

You're probably right, but a few "no thanks" are, well, difficult to just shake off.

We cannot conjure up non SUSE contributors to YaST. All the YaST team/SUSE can do is lower the barriers to entry. I would claim this has been done, very successfully from my point of view.

I agree completely. Unfortunately, I don't speak ruby. Had ycp been converted to C instead, you would quite likely have seen a few patches (instead of bugreports) from me.

There have also been numerous announcements on the YaST list, sorry for not digging those up right now, about modules that will no longer be maintained by the YaST team and that need new owners, similar to the "packages for sale" announcements that happen on -packages from time to time.

Yes, I have seen those - I remember ISDN/ADSL/PPPoe support going for instance. 5-6-7 years ago I would have been happy to work those, but both technologies are being phased out. I moved off ADSL 3 years ago, ISDN is scheduled for decommissioning end of 2017. I have the hardware, both ADSL and ISDN interface cards available if anyone is interested.

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It would be nice to get rid off these misconceptions somehow.

More openness and transparency would be probably help a lot, but that's a broken record if I've ever heard one.

Agreed it is a broken record, but apparently what ever is being done, that is perceived by some to provide more transparency and openness is not helping, and not received as such. Or the information is not being made available in a timely sufficiently loud messaging campaign. Thus, my suggestion would be to provide concrete examples and not just say "more transparency", rather say, "it would be nice if we could get more information about why YaST is SUSE owned as far as commits and maintenance is concerned". Someone can respond to that question with detailed answers and hopefully provide the transparency needed.

It's getting to be a bit late in the day here, I'd like to get back to that one tomorrow. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (16.9°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Robert Schweikert wrote:

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I have to comment - I see those minutes were posted to https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_meeting, but I don't see them posted to the opensuse-project mailing list where project meeting minutes usually go.

A link to those minutes was posted to -project at the time. Project meeting minutes are not posted either, only the links to the IRC logs, Thus we did not really do anything out of the ordinary.

I thought project meeting minutes were always published, such as here: http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse-project/2014-07/msg00070.html http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse-project/2014-07/msg00021.html I admit I don't always read them, recently only rarely.

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Maybe my mistake, but I honestly can't be bothered to go polling miscellaneous websites to find stuff to do. Just as I don't go looking for opensuse "announcements" on people's personal blogs.

In this case you were not expected to poll other websites, the message showed up on -project

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2014-02/msg00049.html

Sorry for being pedantic about this,

No problem, I have been wrong before, ask my wife :-) I don't specifically remember reading that posting, and definitely not the complete minutes. Mea culpa, I suppose. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (17.8°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 17 June 2015 at 08:07, Ish Sookun <ish@hacklog.in> wrote:

On 6/16/15 11:34 PM, Robert Schweikert wrote:

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We do not have sufficient maintainers for our infrastructure, examples - - Planet.o.o is unmaintained

I can jump on the ferry here. Who are the current maintainers? Should I ask directly on the 'admin' mail list?

This is maintained via github https://github.com/openSUSE/planet.opensuse.org Emailing admin@opensuse.org should be able to arrange for you to get commit access, otherwise you can already suggest changes as a Pull Request

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- - Lizards is "unmaintained" and basically duplicates Planet

Same as above. I could help if I get to learn more about the infrastructure from current maintainers.

Also github - https://github.com/openSUSE/lizards :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen - 20:51 16.06.15 wrote:

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YasT also appears to be in the hands of SUSE.

How so?

Robert, I responded with a couple of examples where the community is clearly not "in complete ownership of their "baby"". That's all. I totally appreciate that e.g. yast and xen are open to contributors, but that's a far cry from complete community ownership. If you can point us to non-SUSE contributors to YaST, I agree that YasT is not entirely in the hands of SUSE. I did in fact once offer to maintain the LILO section of the bootloader module, but then LILO was deprecated, well .... the same thing happened for JFS fileystem support in the partitioner. There was never any call for help, btw.

Well, unless people complaining that there is no non-SUSE guy sending patches to YaST start actually sending some patches, there is a little somebody else can do. And no call for help? No invitation to participate? Closed? Really? https://news.opensuse.org/2015/02/25/openness-brings-fresh-air-to-yast/ http://kobliha-suse.blogspot.cz/2013/08/yast-modules-summer-sale.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2013-08/msg00239.html http://kobliha-suse.blogspot.cz/2013/09/yastteamfreenode.html -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen - 10:15 17.06.15 wrote:

Michal Hrusecky wrote:

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Per Jessen - 20:51 16.06.15 wrote:

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...

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YasT also appears to be in the hands of SUSE.

How so?

Robert, I responded with a couple of examples where the community is clearly not "in complete ownership of their "baby"". That's all. I totally appreciate that e.g. yast and xen are open to contributors, but that's a far cry from complete community ownership. If you can point us to non-SUSE contributors to YaST, I agree that YasT is not entirely in the hands of SUSE. I did in fact once offer to maintain the LILO section of the bootloader module, but then LILO was deprecated, well .... the same thing happened for JFS fileystem support in the partitioner. There was never any call for help, btw.

Well, unless people complaining that there is no non-SUSE guy sending patches to YaST start actually sending some patches, there is a little somebody else can do.

And no call for help? No invitation to participate? Closed? Really?

https://news.opensuse.org/2015/02/25/openness-brings-fresh-air-to-yast/ http://kobliha-suse.blogspot.cz/2013/08/yast-modules-summer-sale.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2013-08/msg00239.html http://kobliha-suse.blogspot.cz/2013/09/yastteamfreenode.html

I'm sorry, but blogspots and news-sites are just not the right places, Michal. In my opinion. However, I did in fact see the YaST summer sale, but none of those modules were of any interest to me (nor do I speak ruby). You're right though, that was a call for help.

One of those links is also link to factory mailing list, blogposts are AFAIK aggregated on planet and probably (for sure for news) spread around social media. And there were several talks on conferences. I think there is hard to be more verbose about that. So it looks like there is nobody who knows ruby (or is willing to learn to it) and who wants to contribute to YaST. So hard to complain that SUSE it taking care of it and not letting it rot if there is nobody who wants to be involved.... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 17 June 2015 at 12:25, Ish Sookun <ish@hacklog.in> wrote:

Hello Michal,

On 6/17/15 1:55 PM, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

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So it looks like there is nobody who knows ruby (or is willing to learn to it) and who wants to contribute to YaST. So hard to complain that SUSE it taking care of it and not letting it rot if there is nobody who wants to be involved....

I code in Perl. Would be willing to experiment Ruby :-) Is there a definite place where to start?

http://yast.github.io/contributing.html -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

El Miércoles, 17 de junio de 2015 13:26:37 Imobach González Sosa escribió:

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http://yast.github.io/contributing.html

FYI, in the coming days we'll publish some information about how the bugs are handled by the YaST team and sure you could find some space for contribution.

We have published some information about how the bugs are handled in the YaST team[1]. If you're willing to contribute, please take a look at this document. At this time, we haven't assign any bug to yast-community, but it is just a matter of time. Thank you! Regards, Imobach [1] http://yastgithubio.readthedocs.org/en/latest/bug-tracking/ -- Imobach González Sosa YaST Team at SUSE LINUX GmbH

El Martes, 23 de junio de 2015 09:48:55 Ish Sookun escribió:

Hello Imobach,

Hello Ish,

On 6/22/15 4:47 PM, Imobach González Sosa wrote:

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We have published some information about how the bugs are handled in the YaST team[1]. If you're willing to contribute, please take a look at this document. At this time, we haven't assign any bug to yast-community, but it is just a matter of time.

Thank you :-)

You're welcome :)

I'm reading as much as I can to understand openSUSE/YaST development. Yes, I am eager to contribute & I'm just trying to adjust with some learning curve.

Good. Feel free to drop an e-mail in yast-devel[1] if you have any doubt or just contact us in the IRC channel. Regards, Imobach [1] http://lists.opensuse.org/yast-devel/ -- Imobach González Sosa YaST Team at SUSE LINUX GmbH

On Thursday 2015-06-11 21:08, Per Jessen wrote:

Andrew Wafaa wrote:

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Francoise,

I'm sorry but this is the most pointless email out of the barrage of emails you sent. I have no idea on what it is you are trying to say. I don't understand what the perceived problem is.

I appreciate that english may not be your native language, if that is the case then please think carefully about what it is you're trying to say and keep it as brief as possible. What is the problem that you see and how do you suggest it gets fixed?

Andrew, assuming your native language is English, you have the advantage, there you need to make an effort to try to understand what Françoise wrote.

Challenge accepted: Let the original poster reprovide the text in their native language instead, so as to shift who has the "advantage". And I'll bet that it won't change the situation that the text is not able to express itself. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org