Re: [opensuse-project] Re: openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
On Monday 03 August 2009 18:34:58 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Jim Henderson<hendersj@gmail.com> wrote:
If the KDE "camp" will commit to not pushing to remove the option for GNOME (or lower its prominence in the selection screen by moving it to "other" or doing anything other than presenting it alongside the KDE options - heck, go ahead and list KDE first if it's that important to them) down the road, then fine. As an individual GNOME user, give me the option and support it equally and I'm a happy camper.
KDE folks?
Quoting the important bit of Jim's mail:
So, from my point of view, go ahead, make KDE the default selection if it'll make the KDE users feel loved.
That's all 306967 suggests - and "openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME" - so this +1 from me should be redundant. The rest has been said already. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Will Stephenson<wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
That's all 306967 suggests - and "openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME" - so this +1 from me should be redundant. The rest has been said already.
Given some of the comments, I don't think it is redundant - particularly the other half of the suggestion: "commit to not pushing to remove the option for GNOME." In other words - make part of the suggestion that this is the *end of the GNOME/KDE discussions and commit to leaving both in the selection, and I think that's an option most people can live with. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Mandag den 3. august 2009 19:33:00 skrev Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier:
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Will Stephenson<wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
That's all 306967 suggests - and "openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME" - so this +1 from me should be redundant. The rest has been said already.
Given some of the comments, I don't think it is redundant - particularly the other half of the suggestion: "commit to not pushing to remove the option for GNOME."
In other words - make part of the suggestion that this is the *end of the GNOME/KDE discussions and commit to leaving both in the selection, and I think that's an option most people can live with.
Can't imagine anyone could have a problem with committing to this. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Really? It seems someone have a problem with a lot more neutral decision. The fact GNOME people won't complain because it is not the case does not make this a good choice anyway. Bye, A. Il giorno lun, 03/08/2009 alle 19.43 +0200, Martin Schlander ha scritto:
Can't imagine anyone could have a problem with committing to this.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 03 August 2009 19:33:00 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Will Stephenson<wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
That's all 306967 suggests - and "openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME" - so this +1 from me should be redundant. The rest has been said already.
Given some of the comments, I don't think it is redundant - particularly the other half of the suggestion: "commit to not pushing to remove the option for GNOME."
In other words - make part of the suggestion that this is the *end of the GNOME/KDE discussions and commit to leaving both in the selection, and I think that's an option most people can live with.
Right, I had not appreciated the amount of uncertainty about the future 306967 would create according to some of the GNOME people who have posted here So here's a suggestion 1) Keep the current selection page 2) KDE first and preselected followed by GNOME and others 3) KDE will not push at a later date for removing the option for GNOME or any other environment Work for you? Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 8/3/2009 at 02:14 PM, Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de> wrote: So here's a suggestion
1) Keep the current selection page
2) KDE first and preselected followed by GNOME and others
3) KDE will not push at a later date for removing the option for GNOME or any other environment
Work for you?
Personally I don't have an issue with KDE being listed first but I do have an issue with KDE being selected by default. Why not just leave it to the user to select one or the other. I think if you have either selected by default you run into the KDE vs GNOME wars. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 3 Aug 2009, Joe Harmon wrote:
On 8/3/2009 at 02:14 PM, Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de> wrote: So here's a suggestion
1) Keep the current selection page
2) KDE first and preselected followed by GNOME and others
3) KDE will not push at a later date for removing the option for GNOME or any other environment
Work for you?
Personally I don't have an issue with KDE being listed first but I do have an issue with KDE being selected by default. Why not just leave it to the user to select one or the other. I think if you have either selected by default you run into the KDE vs GNOME wars.
+1. The only problem is this does not address the new linux user that only wants to click next. Some of the points about new users may need to be addressed. Those of us already using the desktops already have made a choice and that is why I think we prefer nothing selected. So to some things up... Things I think people agree on. 1. OK to have KDE listed first. 2. There is an issue with new users and the next ... next on the DVD. 3. Not a good idea to stop creating/using DVD. It has those of use that do many installs and where some of the sites lack internet access. DVD is a must for these. Issuse. 1. Do we need new wording on the selection screen? 2. Do we need a selected choice for new user? 3. If we do need a selection, how to do it to advance the ideals/guiding principles and avoid the political mess? (So we do not go through this again and again! -- Boyd Gerber <gerberb@zenez.com> 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Sent from Kevin Yeaux's mobile device. On Aug 3, 2009, at 4:29 PM, Boyd Lynn Gerber <gerberb@zenez.com> wrote:
1. Do we need new wording on the selection screen?
Probably, but as I've been saying in the past few emails I've sent, the best solution would probably be a tour of each desktop done by their selective teams. I was planning on introducing something like that in the launch of 11.2, as that would help new users decide by getting a look at each desktop. We could also help by incorporating this into the install (though it would have to be done pretty early in the dev cycle and not until 11.3 at the earliest, if we want it in the install.) -- Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy openSUSE Project Member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 8:46 PM, Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy<kevin.dupuy@opensuse.org> wrote:
Sent from Kevin Yeaux's mobile device.
On Aug 3, 2009, at 4:29 PM, Boyd Lynn Gerber <gerberb@zenez.com> wrote:
1. Do we need new wording on the selection screen?
Probably, but as I've been saying in the past few emails I've sent, the best solution would probably be a tour of each desktop done by their selective teams. I was planning on introducing something like that in the launch of 11.2, as that would help new users decide by getting a look at each desktop. We could also help by incorporating this into the install (though it would have to be done pretty early in the dev cycle and not until 11.3 at the earliest, if we want it in the install.) -- Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy openSUSE Project Member --
As a user, not a developer. And as a user of both Gnome and KDE (avidly KDE until a couple of months ago when I could not get a stable desktop on 4, and hopefully soon to go back), I'd like to make a couple of comments. I've seen arguments about a default selection being needed, because new users just want to click next. I've seen arguments about a default KDE selection being needed, because its the more often used desktop, and would likely have a larger base of installed users to get support from. I've seen arguments about a default KDE selection, to help in repairing a damaged relationship openSuse has with KDE developers. First, new users come in roughly three categories I would say. First, users who have no idea what they want or are doing and just are installing this to try something new. They have very little background in linux, if any, and really probably have not researched anything to any degree. These users are likely not going to understand or follow any real discussion of what a desktop environment is. Technical questions may in fact scare them, at the least its something they don't want to think about. To satisfy these users, you would actually want a group of non-technical questions that let you make technical assumptions. Like: "Do you do a lot of photo editing?" or "What do you want to do with this computer?" So that maybe instead of picking a DE they get a DE based on what the questions have revealed. (Obviously this is far more complex and related to asking the RIGHT questions, but really its the way many non-technical people want to interact with a computer, at least my wife says so ;) ) The question I think that needs answering is, how big a group of people is this for openSuse. Second, you have users who may have done some research, they picked openSuse for a reason. They may not know what DE they want, but they are willing to see screen shots or read some to get an idea. These people will click a link to get more information and WILL understand if its explained that the user base for openSuse is 70% KDE. And they will make an educated guess on what they would like to try from those descriptions. Would a default "help" them, maybe, but probably not much more so than a mini-tour or description. If they've bothered to pick openSuse for a reason, they will take a look at more information to make an educated choice here. Third, you have users that are coming from another distribution. They already know what they want to do and what they want to try. It doesn't really matter what you say here, they know what they want to do and will choose it. They may read the descriptions for the various DEs, but odds are they are going to do what they wanted to do in the first place. So IMHO, unless you are really trying to solve the first case of user, a default selection is not going to really solve a serious problem. Instead its the idea of reparations for damaged feelings. But to me, this feels like something to make one segment of people feel better, while making another feel worse. Directly or indirectly. If thats the case, there should be a way of fixing that relationship without damaging another. Michael -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Sent from Kevin Yeaux's mobile device. On Aug 4, 2009, at 7:31 AM, Michael Letourneau <michaell-suse@theletourneaus.net
wrote: As a user, not a developer. And as a user of both Gnome and KDE (avidly KDE until a couple of months ago when I could not get a stable desktop on 4, and hopefully soon to go back), I'd like to make a couple of comments.
I've seen arguments about a default selection being needed, because new users just want to click next.
I've seen arguments about a default KDE selection being needed, because its the more often used desktop, and would likely have a larger base of installed users to get support from.
I've seen arguments about a default KDE selection, to help in repairing a damaged relationship openSuse has with KDE developers.
First, new users come in roughly three categories I would say. First, users who have no idea what they want or are doing and just are installing this to try something new. They have very little background in linux, if any, and really probably have not researched anything to any degree. These users are likely not going to understand or follow any real discussion of what a desktop environment is. Technical questions may in fact scare them, at the least its something they don't want to think about. To satisfy these users, you would actually want a group of non-technical questions that let you make technical assumptions. Like: "Do you do a lot of photo editing?" or "What do you want to do with this computer?" So that maybe instead of picking a DE they get a DE based on what the questions have revealed. (Obviously this is far more complex and related to asking the RIGHT questions, but really its the way many non-technical people want to interact with a computer, at least my wife says so ;) ) The question I think that needs answering is, how big a group of people is this for openSuse.
Second, you have users who may have done some research, they picked openSuse for a reason. They may not know what DE they want, but they are willing to see screen shots or read some to get an idea. These people will click a link to get more information and WILL understand if its explained that the user base for openSuse is 70% KDE. And they will make an educated guess on what they would like to try from those descriptions. Would a default "help" them, maybe, but probably not much more so than a mini-tour or description. If they've bothered to pick openSuse for a reason, they will take a look at more information to make an educated choice here.
Third, you have users that are coming from another distribution. They already know what they want to do and what they want to try. It doesn't really matter what you say here, they know what they want to do and will choose it. They may read the descriptions for the various DEs, but odds are they are going to do what they wanted to do in the first place.
So IMHO, unless you are really trying to solve the first case of user, a default selection is not going to really solve a serious problem. Instead its the idea of reparations for damaged feelings. But to me, this feels like something to make one segment of people feel better, while making another feel worse. Directly or indirectly. If thats the case, there should be a way of fixing that relationship without damaging another.
Michael
Yeah, the Desktop Tour is sounding like a better idea every day. Unfortunately, I can't do anything with it until next week when I get back hone, but I really think this quick, graphical tour is the best idea for helping new users decide on a desktop. -- Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy openSUSE Project Member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Sent from Kevin Yeaux's mobile device. On Aug 3, 2009, at 3:14 PM, Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:
So here's a suggestion
1) Keep the current selection page
Sounds good...
2) KDE first and preselected followed by GNOME and others
...except for this. KDE can be first, I don't care about that. Personally, I'd rather they be side by side with helpful text and a quick graphical tour of each desktop (which is something I'm actually gonna start working on), which would end the 'oh no the other desktop is on top!' nonsense. But preselecting a desktop makes it seem as though openSUSE is pre- selecting a desktop, in which case if we're gonna do that, we might as well just say that KDE's the default and hide GNOME, as they do in SLED (just in reverse). Note: I'm NOT advocating that AT ALL, just pointing this out. The best solution is to provide more helpful info to help new users make a decision, which leads into another project I was going to start after I got back from my trip (which is why I'm using my phone to write these, this whole discussion started after I left for a vacation to Florida).
3) KDE will not push at a later date for removing the option for GNOME or any other environment
Well this is good, though you'd think we wouldn't have to worry about the KDE team pushing for something like that, as that decision would be made by the project as a whole... -- Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy Sending email from a phone with sand in it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
participants (8)
-
Alberto Passalacqua -
Boyd Lynn Gerber -
Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier -
Joe Harmon -
Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy -
Martin Schlander -
Michael Letourneau -
Will Stephenson