On 6/1/23 03:21, Emily Gonyer wrote:
Simon Lees wrote:
Simon Lees wrote: On 5/30/23 18:51, Natasha Ament wrote: Op di 30 mei 2023 om 10:22 schreef Wouter Onebekend wouter.onebekend@proton.me: Hello, On Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 8:00 AM, Natasha Ament stacheldrahtje@gmail.com wrote: Just like everyone on the right is a 'bigot' or 'literally Hitler'? Like most people on my side, I just want to be left alone. This is not possible in a world increasingly controlled by radical leftists who want to have a controlling interest in where I live, what car I drive (or whether I drive a car at all), how I raise my kids, how I heat my home, whether I get to eat meat, or even what words I am no longer allowed to use when writing code. This is why I speak out against them from time to time. Under a pseudonym because they would absolutely come for me in various ways were they to learn my real name. For the one thing they cannot tolerate is somebody openly disagreeing with them. If that happens too often, the climate of fear they have managed to establish to dominate discourse in most places will get cracks. Truth be told, I do not think I am going to get much of anywhere with my ranting and raving. But it still beats only preaching to a small choir of fellow far right dissidents in hushed tones. Most of them learned the hard way exactly how intolerant the "tolerant" left is and do not need convincing. Those who - perhaps even unwittingly - play along with that game of iron intolerance against the "intolerant" I may be able to convince or at least sow a few seeds of doubt in. You want to be left alone but you do insist on telling others what they should or should not do. That does not make much sense. As a closing remark I would like to note that free speech is by no means unlimited. Insults, Slander and Libel are examples of limitations of free speech. Private Organizations as openSUSE can deviate from that even without a code of conduct. Welcome to the world of free enterprise. The code of conduct is to give some insight in how the organisation expects participants to behave. IMNSHO This beats the hell out of the situation without the Code of Conduct. If you feel this is not the place for you then please make sure the door doesn't hit you on the way out ;-) Id like to think that rather then encouraging people to leave because they disagree with something the more tolerant approach would be to encourage people to agree to disagree and continue to contribute to the project in there preferred manner. The problem with that Simon, is that 'An Anonymous Techie' is insistent that their non-tolerance of tolerance be the default, status quo. And not just here, in openSUSE, but indeed in the world at large. That we go back to the 'wild west' as it were, of not having a 'Code of Conduct', where anything and everything goes. Where you could say or do anything you like. Where if you wanted to insult people, under the guise of 'free speech', then that was OK. Where making 'off color' insults and jokes - towards women, gays, people of color, or anyone else, wasn't just tolerated, but expected. And if you were in the room, or vicinity, you were expected to smile, laugh, and generally 'go along to get along'. If you were the one to stop, and say 'hey, asshole, that's not funny' - well then, you were uncool. And quite likely to be fired unceremoniously shortly thereafter. Not for making an uncool, racist, or sexist joke, but for daring to call one out. Not for being an asshole, but for daring to call an asshole out. THAT is what 'An Anonymous Techie' want's to go back to. 'Agreeing to disagree' isn't OK. We can't all just sit back and smile and nod and 'go along to get along'. That's how you get an unsafe community. That's how you end up with a community full of people who all look, sound, and act the same. And all, as a result, have pretty much the same ideas. If that's what you, and the rest of openSUSE really want, then by all means, get rid of the Code of Conduct. If it's not, then please, stop asking people to 'agree to disagree'. 'Tolerance of intolerance' isn't a thing. I really think this depends on how we "agree to disagree", which always involves some level of compromise and often more so on one side then the other. For example in this case it might look like "An Anonymous Techie" is free to express there opinions in the correct forum, using civil language which to this point they have done. But at the same time agreeing to disagree might mean that they understand that a majority of our current active community supports the code of conduct and therefore
On 5/31/23 03:20, Emily Gonyer wrote: they will continue to follow it when contributing to the parts of the community that interest them. At the same time for others who strongly agree with having a code of conduct it may look much more like not bullying, harassing, hindering someones work or telling them to leave because they've stated they don't like the code of conduct when none of there actions or contributions to the project fall outside the code of conduct.
Again. You're equating insisting that simply *having* a code of conduct is a good thing, with bullying. While pretending that others' use of language insinuating that minorities of all stripes - whether they're gay, people of color, women, or otherwise, should simply be quiet. That's not OK.
No I am most certainly not, please don't put words in my mouth. To clarify I am simply saying if someone is willing to be pleasant, enter into discussions in good faith and most importantly follow our code of conduct while arguing against having it. Then I personally believe we shouldn't as a community be actively asking them to leave or even suggesting they leave and give up there valuable contributions elsewhere in the project because they disagree with the code of conduct while still being willing to follow it.
You're asking people to sit down, and be quiet. To not stand up for themselves, to speak out on their own behalf, when people are asking them to not exist.
No again I am saying exactly the opposite. To start with I haven't heard anyone in this thread actively or passively asking any person or group of people not to exist. If I had I would have expected that the email get rejected. This list is the correct place to discuss project wide issues such as the code of conduct and whether it could / should be modified or even removed. I can certainly see a time and date where we as a project decide it needs changes and this is the correct place to rather then being quiet raise those issues. It may be that its clear the majority of the community doesn't agree with the proposed changes or maybe on the other hand there isn't a clear consensus and we need a vote of the membership. Either way this list isn't a place where people should need to keep quiet if they are passionate about a certain topic provided they are willing to follow the list rules which includes following the code of conduct. At the same time just because someone has disagreed with someone else about a topic raised on this list it doesn't mean that they can't then go work on other parts of the project that interest them and nor should it. I strongly agree that people taking the time and effort to post suggestions to this list are doing so because they desire to make openSUSE a better place and are willing to put in the time and effort to make a change. At the same time just because someone posts an idea that they personally believe will make the project a better place it doesn't mean that the community has to accept follow and endorse that idea. They of course are more then welcome to raise there voice and respectfully disagree as many on this list have.
But, it's not a world in which at least I for one want to live in. It's not a world that, I would like to think most of us in openSUSE would like to live. And that's why we have the Code of Conduct.
This I also agree with.
It's why we wrote it a year+ ago - to ensure that we don't. So that I, and no-one else, has to sit down and be quiet. So that when people like 'An Anonymous Techie' come around, and tell me to be quiet, I can speak up and say "No". So that when they ask us to stop speaking out on behalf of Everyone, we, as a community, can say "No".
That is the whole point of this conversation. That our Code of Conduct, protects ALL of us, as a community. It's a safety mechanism. If 'An Anonymous Techie' doesn't like it, that's on them. Not me. Not you. That's on THEM. But this nonsense of trying to pretend like simply having a 'Code of Conduct' is a problem? That right there is a problem. No-one is harassing them. We're simply defending the CoC, while they attempt to bully the entire community into removing it. The CoC isn't going anywhere.
This whole part of the thread started because someone told "Anonymous Techie" "If you feel this is not the place for you then please make sure the door doesn't hit you on the way out" And I spoke up because I'd like to hope that we as a community can do better and be more tolerant when disagreeing with each other. While at the same time personally I was trying to avoid singling this comment out too much because there have certainly been many many worse things said on these lists in the past but at the same time history has shown that all it takes is a comment like this from one side to encourage the other side to start down the path towards personal attacks so I was trying my best to encourage the conversation to stay civil and I am glad that in this thread so far it has. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B