Hey, On 15.07.24 03:38, Tony Walker wrote:
On 7/11/24 12:43, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:
Op woensdag 10 juli 2024 18:43:23 CEST schreef Henne Vogelsang:
On 10.07.24 18:28, Tony Walker wrote:
I am a new person who is moving from years and years as a Debian user. I found Tumbleweed and decided to (slowly) get involved. While I did appear out-of-blue, I am very unusual and agree with Shawn.
Leaving Debian for OpenSUSE was a long journey worth discussing, but the much looser structure and communication caused me to pause.
And why did you pause? :-)
Like a lot of contributors, I am want to help a lot of people, be part of a well-functioning team, and be part of project that solves problems. Debian certainly has had far, far too many bar-fights, but OpenSUSE doesn't seem better to me. As you say elsewhere in this email chain, there are lots of problems that need to be solved, too much bickering, and not enough solutions. Bingo!
Okay, so what you mean by "looser structure" is "no functioning team of maintainers" for certain topics that could guide you in "helping" them. That is exactly what I mean we need to build BTW. And that most of the other activities put forward will distract us from this. Would you mind being more specific about which area this was in? If that is possible without blaming people of course...
I have seen the entire ecosystem benefit from formalization of communication, structure, and governance over the years. In my opinion, it was necessary for the entire Linux ecosystem to become the world-scale team-effort it is today. A lot of contributors and users find the stability of that structure very comforting.
Your response can be taken as condescending, misses an important opportunity, and otherwise misses the point. Let's break it down.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by the "Linux ecosystem". However, let's assume you mean the Libre Software community.
OpenSUSE is a distribution that packages a the kernel and lots of software. Whether we are comparing distributions only, including the kernel, or all Libre software, the outcome is the same. I will come to that in a bit.
You might be asking a legitimate question; however, the above paragraph seems overly pedantic. After reading it several times, I still feel like this a rhetorical trick often used to silence people. I don't care whether you like the work libre or the phrases OSS, FOSS, or FLOSS. I won't be baited into going into a never-ending argument of increasing minutia. Again, I will freely admit that I have completely misunderstood you.
How about you assume that I'm not an a-hole that wants to bait you into never-ending arguments to silence you? How about you assume I'm a fellow contributor that want's to have conversation about what *exactly* you mean. After all, we don't know each other and one of our guiding principles is: "We listen to arguments and address problems in a constructive and open way. We believe that a diverse community based on mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment enabling the project to be truly successful." https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Guiding_principles
What formalization of "communication, structure, and governance" are you talking about?
I was a Gentoo user when Robbins was forced out. I also attended a talk he gave shortly after that. I also remember when ESR wrote his essay on Linus being gifted (and undisciplined). Surely we all remember Heartbleed? These are just a few of the many bits of history I remember off-the-top-of-my-head.
Again, this seems overly pedantic and a rhetorical trick. I don't care if you like these examples or not. I won't argue about them. But let's just one... The consternation around Linus, the question of what would happen if he was hit by a bus, and that so much was in-his-head did lead to a series of changes that help corporations and large institutions feel more secure in adopting and contribution to the kernel. If you really want another, Debian started as a one-man project. It isn't now. That's the main point.
We are in complete agreement about one-person teams. They are dangerous. But for me "formalization of communication, structure, and governance" implies the "rules" of *how* people work together. Those "rules" are not formalized here or the wider Libre software community. The way people work together in the Linux Kernel maintainer community greatly differs from the way people work together in the Debian maintainer community. It's not like there is one formalized way of working together as community of maintainers. My impression was that you are suggesting there is and that we just have to follow that. And I disagreed.
I hoped that the wise project elders would take the opportunity to discuss things that are broken AND OFFER PROPOSALS FOR SOLUTIONS! You literally complained about exactly that.
You do realize that I am one of the people that founded the openSUSE Project two decades ago (however I am not in any way wise), have been contributing since and that I complained about the solution (re-branding) and proposed another solution (re-focus on contributor organization and growth) for the problem right? :-) Please keep your assumptions in check. I know these days most of the internet is a cesspool but this is the project mailing list, we are all friends here trying to achieve something good for openSUSE. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson