Hi, On Wednesday 04 December 2013 17:07:06 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 04.12.2013 16:22, Agustin Benito Bethencourt wrote:
On Wednesday, December 04, 2013 03:32:45 PM Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 30.11.2013 15:37, Robert Schweikert wrote:
The problem is that many things that need to be done to actually get a release out the door, one of our goals one would presume, are completed by the openSUSE Team.
They are done by the SUSE Team not because they have to be done by the SUSE team but because they chose to do them :-) If they stop doing them, someone else can.
I do not agree with this view completely. In 12.2 we had to do it and 12.3 too. In 13.1 I can consider it was partially a decision, yes.
Okay, doesn't matter to my argument. You do it, but someone else could.
According to progress.o.o there are 285 tasks to do, there are exactly 2 (very minor ones) that require action from SUSE.
All the ones related with infrastructure are currently done by SUSE. Legal ones too. The Release Team is SUSE.....
Again, this is the case because your team chose (or where forced by what/whomever doesn't matter) to do it, not because nobody else can do it.
Please remember that in the tool is not everything that is done for the Release, but everything we do or want to check/follow. There are tasks not present there that requires some access to infrastructure or authorization that only SUSE employees have. They are just a few though. Most of the current tasks can be done by other people that is not us, yes. I personally think that the current process is not designed to be done by external contributors under volunteers basis. This is why we are trying to change it. But possible in normal conditions? Yes of course.... like many other jobs done in the open.
That some people that participate in this process are employed by SUSE is a distinction you are very keen to point out, it's not a distinction that traditionally mattered in this project. It's a distinction we have fought very hard to get rid of.
So if Lars updates mirrorbrain or Ciaran checks package submission it's because they are part of the openSUSE community, not because they are employed by SUSE.
The good thing about working at SUSE is that they do it, no matter how they see themselves: community members, sponsored community members, employees working in openSUSE, employees with freedom to work in any Free Software project so they choose openSUSE.... I assume there was a time in which this fight you mention was relevant. I am open to have this discussion about who we are, how do we see ourselves and how other see us in oSC14.... with beers. It seems it is very important for some of you. I respect it so let's talk about it in person.
We have worked on documenting the process, publishing the tasks around it and opening some tasks to the community.
And for that I applaud you :-)
As I said some months ago, there is a lot to do in this direction. But the process is set up in a way that is very hard to handle it if you are not working full time on it. It is to great extend a product focus process based on what SUSE used to do.
Like I've said, once we have handled this with a way bigger percentage of not-full-time community members. It's a recent change that we don't anymore.
I do not understand this fully. Are you saying that the current set up in the distribution is a regression compared to how the distro was released in the past in terms on community involvement?
One goal of Factory proposal is to open the process....in a way that is affordable on volunteer basis, removing the "product component", clarifying distributing and reducing the "work packages" so it is easier to manage on volunteer basis.
No matter the development process in factory, as long as we release a Linux distribution the amount of tasks involved to pull this off will be roughly the same. Please just look at your own task list in progress and see what you can leave be after you have changed factory...
Many of what we do now in the Release is because the distro is also for developers. In the future Release those tasks will change. Might be less or more but will change. Examples: * The current feature page is very "power users" oriented. It is a big task by the way. * We test features and software that would not be present in the "new release". There are many more ..... I think that your assumption is, at least, risky. [offtopic] I am glad to see that progress is used as base for discussing aspects of the release.
Part of the success of this Release version will be: a.- To set up the process in a way that volunteers can participate in short/extensive periods of time. There is no need to apply intensive work with time pressure.
See above...
b.- Put paid developers in those less attractive tasks that still needs to be done, at least initially.
We don't "put" developers anywhere and we don't care if they get salary and most of all we don't care who pays their salary if they get some. We are an open source project, not a company. Please get this into your head :-)
I will try to remember your principles. Please consider that not everybody must share them, they must respect them. People with different ones can also contribute and enjoy the project being good citizens. The word "open" is there for good reasons ;-)
Henne
Saludos -- Agustin Benito Bethencourt openSUSE Team Lead at SUSE abebe@suse.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org