Am Sa 25 Jun 2016, 22:51:41 schrieb Jan Engelhardt:

On Saturday 2016-06-25 20:59, Eric Schirra wrote:

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Why was devel:languages:python/openSUSE_13.1 removed?

I think openSUSE_13.1 is Evergreen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz3whk4E_IA 24:45-25:10 Of course you should watch the whole thing to get the larger context.

Okay i have seen it. And when i understand right, i can not agree with it. Richard speek from future stable package and i can he understand, but this is not the point of view for me. And not my suit. I live in the present and with distris 13.1, 13.2 and leap 42.1 When i need packages or create one i need it for those versions. Tumbleweed and especially Factory is for me an 'by-product'. So Evergreen is 13.1. When i will use 13.1 i need package for 13.1. And when i can not build these package, because other (for me now python) is missing, i can not use evergreen. So there is no need for evergreen. Why it gives evergreen then? What should i do now? Upgrade to 42.1? No time for that. Brings other errors and problems. 13.1 is running very well. Use a other distro with really LTS? I don't want this. Waht should i do now? I can understand development but i can also understand users. And for my opinion users must the point of view. Not the developments. Without users, no developents needed. Development and developers are the service provider for users. Not reverse order. And a little note to the video. Almost anytime a question had a dissenting opinion from Richard, the question was not answered and the next question was taken. This is not right for me. Regards Eric -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Hi, Am 26.06.2016 um 11:30 schrieb Eric Schirra:

Am Sa 25 Jun 2016, 22:51:41 schrieb Jan Engelhardt:

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On Saturday 2016-06-25 20:59, Eric Schirra wrote:

...

Why was devel:languages:python/openSUSE_13.1 removed?

I think openSUSE_13.1 is Evergreen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz3whk4E_IA 24:45-25:10 Of course you should watch the whole thing to get the larger context.

Okay i have seen it. And when i understand right, i can not agree with it. Richard speek from future stable package and i can he understand, but this is not the point of view for me. And not my suit.

I live in the present and with distris 13.1, 13.2 and leap 42.1 When i need packages or create one i need it for those versions. Tumbleweed and especially Factory is for me an 'by-product'.

So Evergreen is 13.1. When i will use 13.1 i need package for 13.1. And when i can not build these package, because other (for me now python) is missing, i can not use evergreen. So there is no need for evergreen. Why it gives evergreen then?

The Evergreen team is not responsible for OBS repositories. We had this so many times now that packagers just ignore Evergreen completely. Somehow I even have the feeling they want to boycot it while I do not really believe it. Anyway while Alberto's talk from this years conference again showed that our users like to have stable stuff and keep also running older distributions for quite some time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40emCNzs6so) I have the feeling that our contributors do not share this preference and they run away from older things as soon as possible while there is many times not even a technical reason. Take my mozilla repository as an example: I was asked why I still have repositories in there which are really out of maintenance and not Evergreen. My answer was and is: "Because I can and it doesn't put an additional burden on me. At some point it'll become a technical nightmare. In that case I will have to drop them eventually." Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Eric, On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 11:30:58AM +0200, Eric Schirra wrote:

Am Sa 25 Jun 2016, 22:51:41 schrieb Jan Engelhardt:

...

On Saturday 2016-06-25 20:59, Eric Schirra wrote:

...

Why was devel:languages:python/openSUSE_13.1 removed?

I think openSUSE_13.1 is Evergreen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz3whk4E_IA 24:45-25:10 Of course you should watch the whole thing to get the larger context.

Okay i have seen it. And when i understand right, i can not agree with it. Richard speek from future stable package and i can he understand, but this is not the point of view for me. And not my suit.

I live in the present and with distris 13.1, 13.2 and leap 42.1 When i need packages or create one i need it for those versions. Tumbleweed and especially Factory is for me an 'by-product'.

So Evergreen is 13.1. When i will use 13.1 i need package for 13.1. And when i can not build these package, because other (for me now python) is missing, i can not use evergreen. So there is no need for evergreen. Why it gives evergreen then?

I removed openSUSE_13.1 because official support is over and it shouldn't build 3500 packages for the case there is Evergreen user who might want to install few packages on top. If I wouldn't do that, someone else would do that. I just felt I could stand stoning or two. I respect that people are still using 13.1 for whatever reasons but that's not argument for keeping 13.1 as build target. If you need some packages from devel:languages:python or devel:languages:python3, link them wherever you need it and enable 13.1 as target. You're on your own. If you think your package should go into Evergreen, prepare (or convince someone to do so) a maintenance update.

What should i do now? Upgrade to 42.1?

Yes.

No time for that. Brings other errors and problems. 13.1 is running very well.

OK, then no. But don't expect that devel projects will build packages against that. Btw. are some of the bugs you reported still not solved?

Use a other distro with really LTS? I don't want this. Waht should i do now?

LTS means 'Long Term Support'. The packages you miss were not supported for openSUSE_13.1, they were just built. So I'd kindly recommend you to decide whether you want to have long term supported distribution (take Leap or any other which will respect your wishes) or you want to continue use your 13.1 based distribution.

I can understand development but i can also understand users. And for my opinion users must the point of view. Not the developments. Without users, no developents needed. Development and developers are the service provider for users. Not reverse order.

I hope that this action will help users in the end.

And a little note to the video. Almost anytime a question had a dissenting opinion from Richard, the question was not answered and the next question was taken. This is not right for me.

Best regards, S_W

On Sun, 2016-06-26 at 11:30 +0200, Eric Schirra wrote:

Am Sa 25 Jun 2016, 22:51:41 schrieb Jan Engelhardt:

...

On Saturday 2016-06-25 20:59, Eric Schirra wrote:

...

Why was devel:languages:python/openSUSE_13.1 removed?

I think openSUSE_13.1 is Evergreen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz3whk4E_IA 24:45-25:10 Of course you should watch the whole thing to get the larger context.

Okay i have seen it. And when i understand right, i can not agree with it. Richard speek from future stable package and i can he understand, but this is  not the point of view for me. And not my suit.

I live in the present and with distris 13.1, 13.2 and leap 42.1 When i need packages or create one i need it for those versions. Tumbleweed and especially Factory is for me an 'by-product'.

So Evergreen is 13.1. When i will use 13.1 i need package for 13.1. And when i can not build these package, because other (for me now python) is  missing, i can not use evergreen. So there is no need for evergreen. Why it gives evergreen then?

Would it have helped if the python packages you need were in 13.1 proper and you didn't need to use devel:languages:python?

What should i do now? Upgrade to 42.1? No time for that. Brings other errors and problems. 13.1 is running very well. Use a other distro with really LTS?

Random OBS projects != distro. If you want to talk about distro, stick to the official distro packages.

I don't want this. Waht should i do now?

I can understand development but i can also understand users. And for my opinion users must the point of view. Not the developments. Without users, no developents needed. Development and developers are the service provider for users.

I'm told that volunteer based developers are primarily service providers for themselves. Unless they give you an SLA or explicit some form of commitment even if best effort, all bets are off. On the other hand the openSUSE distro does strive to provide some level of service to it's users.

Not reverse order.

And a little note to the video. Almost anytime a question had a dissenting opinion from Richard, the question  was not answered and the next question was taken.  This is not right for me.

Actually Richard is trying to help specifically users like you from hitting the issue you just hit. The issue you have right now is one (of several) of the challenges we are trying to solve with the openSUSE:Backports projects for SLE-12. The various OBS projects have their own standards on what, how, and how long they will support particular target builds. They come and go and there isn't any form of standardization here (and I don't argue there should be). That's not nice for most end users and we have had some SLE customer bit by this as well. With the Backports project we plan to keep all binaries available for the life of the distro even if the "upstream" packagers have moved away from supporting it in their rolling OBS project. It's one of the reasons that it's hard to recommend SLE users to use or count on packages built in the various OBS projects. I think what Richard's point was is that for same reasons we shouldn't recommend it for openSUSE users either. That begs the question of where should extra packages go that will have a dependable, persistent, standardized life cycle that end users can count on for whatever release of openSUSE they use old or new? -Scott -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org