[opensuse-packaging] Changes in the openSUSE Review team
The review of packages to openSUSE Factory and the released openSUSE distributions have been done in the past by an SUSE internal team. Sascha Peilicke, who's currently on paternal leave, did the vast majority of reviews in the past months. We have now properly formed a review team and started discussing our guidelines and best practices. We created a couple of wiki pages to describe what we are doing (use http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Factory_submissions). If you like to reach the review team directly, please send an email to review@opensuse.org. In general, policy discussions and changes will happen on the opensuse-packaging mailing list. The team currently consists of Andreas Jaeger, Berthold Gunreben, Craig Gardner, Dominique Leuenberger, Lars Vogdt, Marcus Rückert, Michal Vyskocil, Rüdiger Oertel, Sascha Peilicke. We'd like to grow the team slowly over time with packagers that have shown good review and packaging skills. Our goal is to document our guidelines - and do a good review to improve the quality of openSUSE's packages. If we err, please tell us - we cannot know everything and might sometimes be too cautious if we do not understand what and why something gets changed. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
Dear Andreas, nice to hear the names of the people in charge of reviewing sr... almost all the packages that I submitted to the factory, ended up in it via a devel project. and some devel projects are fast and kind in dealing with the srs, other are simple mythical bit buckets... Maybe would be nice to publish a list with devel projects for factory and who is actually supposed to review packages sent to each of them... on top of that a clarification of devel->factory submit process would be much appreciated... (practical clarification, not conceptual as that is already done in the wiki) Alin On Thu 30 Aug 2012 14:57:25 Andreas Jaeger wrote:
The review of packages to openSUSE Factory and the released openSUSE distributions have been done in the past by an SUSE internal team. Sascha Peilicke, who's currently on paternal leave, did the vast majority of reviews in the past months.
We have now properly formed a review team and started discussing our guidelines and best practices. We created a couple of wiki pages to describe what we are doing (use http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Factory_submissions).
If you like to reach the review team directly, please send an email to review@opensuse.org. In general, policy discussions and changes will happen on the opensuse-packaging mailing list.
The team currently consists of Andreas Jaeger, Berthold Gunreben, Craig Gardner, Dominique Leuenberger, Lars Vogdt, Marcus Rückert, Michal Vyskocil, Rüdiger Oertel, Sascha Peilicke. We'd like to grow the team slowly over time with packagers that have shown good review and packaging skills.
Our goal is to document our guidelines - and do a good review to improve the quality of openSUSE's packages. If we err, please tell us - we cannot know everything and might sometimes be too cautious if we do not understand what and why something gets changed.
Andreas -- Without Questions there are no Answers!
Alin Marin ELENA Advanced Molecular Simulation Research Laboratory School of Physics, University College Dublin ---- Ardionsamblú Móilíneach Saotharlann Taighde Scoil na Fisice, An Coláiste Ollscoile, Baile Átha Cliath ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://alin.elenaworld.net ______________________________________________________________________ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On Thursday, August 30, 2012 15:50:42 Alin M Elena wrote:
Dear Andreas,
nice to hear the names of the people in charge of reviewing sr...
almost all the packages that I submitted to the factory, ended up in it via a devel project. and some devel projects are fast and kind in dealing with the srs, other are simple mythical bit buckets... Maybe would be nice to publish a list with devel projects for factory and who is actually supposed to review packages sent to each of them...
I don't have a list, but you can get it for each package yourself. Just run osc maintainer -v openSUSE:Factory $package
on top of that a clarification of devel->factory submit process would be much appreciated... (practical clarification, not conceptual as that is already done in the wiki)
What exactly is not clear? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
I don't have a list, but you can get it for each package yourself. Just run osc maintainer -v openSUSE:Factory $package Andreas, what you get there is a mythical list of users... some devel projects simply have no person reacting... This issue was raised previously on the mailing list, iirc... Personally I was in the position in which I submitted packages to a devel package and they simply died... because nobody reviewed the sr...
There is another issue of packages duplicated in between different devel projects...
What exactly is not clear?
who is submitting from the devel project to factory... the person who pushed it to devel once accepted or is the responsibility of someone from the devel project. regards, Alin
Andreas -- Without Questions there are no Answers!
Alin Marin ELENA Advanced Molecular Simulation Research Laboratory School of Physics, University College Dublin ---- Ardionsamblú Móilíneach Saotharlann Taighde Scoil na Fisice, An Coláiste Ollscoile, Baile Átha Cliath ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://alin.elenaworld.net ______________________________________________________________________ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On Thursday, August 30, 2012 16:11:09 Alin M Elena wrote:
I don't have a list, but you can get it for each package yourself. Just run osc maintainer -v openSUSE:Factory $package
Andreas, what you get there is a mythical list of users... some devel projects simply have no person reacting... This issue was raised previously on the mailing list, iirc... Personally I was in the position in which I submitted packages to a devel package and they simply died... because nobody reviewed the sr...
There is another issue of packages duplicated in between different devel projects...
Yes, those are all things that need to be improved but beyond of what we as team can work on for now. Others helping here would be great.
What exactly is not clear?
who is submitting from the devel project to factory... the person who pushed it to devel once accepted or is the responsibility of someone from the devel project.
By default, the webui shows the button: Forward package to factory. It's the job of the maintainer of the package to push it forward. Since some people forgot that in the past, Coolo setup some automatic pushes. Responsiblity is by someone from the devel project. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 10:59 PM, Andreas Jaeger <aj@suse.com> wrote:
What exactly is not clear?
Maybe he wants to know what kind of package go to what kind of devel repository. That's the place where we ignore in documentation. Actually a "devel projects list" with detail explanations is a must. or it'll be a mystery to OBS freshman. eg 1: Arch:core if you know there's a distribution named ArchLinux, and you know OBS supports it. You'll know it's a link project to all of core prebuilt packages from Archlinux. But what if you not? you might think it to be a "Architecture Core" devel repository. So you submit all your x86_64 and i586 packages against it. then what will happen? no one answers you at all...because seems there're no maintainers for that repo. Only Adrian knows there's a SR against it. Acutally not all devel projects start with "devel:", there'are exceptions like "editors". But not all projects without "devel" are not devel projects either. And not all projects start with "devel" are devel projects, for example "devel:perl:CPAN:A-N". eg 2: KDE:Extra Can you judge what this is according to its name? Apparently not. If you think it is a KDE Extra repository, okay, you're wrong. Actually it's KDE Extra repository which can not be used to SR to Factory. I miss SR many requests into it. But what if KDE:Distro:Factory? Actually it much like a standard suite of KDE for Factory. If you submit some extragear into it. well, it feels embarrassing. We have so many repositories. That's good. but one person can only focus on a few of them. But which one should he focus on at the beginning? no one knows. So we'd better have a wiki page called "OBS repositories layout" to catalog and explain them. This is good for both packagers and maintainers to get an overview. Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
Quoting Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su>:
On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 10:59 PM, Andreas Jaeger <aj@suse.com> wrote:
We have so many repositories. That's good. but one person can only focus on a few of them. But which one should he focus on at the beginning?
True, that can be confusing. 'New' contributors often do not start with a new package, but with a 'fix'/'update'. For 'this' usecase we have to make sure that it's not important to know the deve project, as osc branch openSUSE:Factory <pkg> works just fine and branches off the devel project. Then, inside the package directoy, "osc sr" without parameters again does the right thing and submits the package back to the devel project. So not documenting all the features a tool has might be a good start for beginners tutorials as well. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar <DimStar@opensuse.org> wrote:
'New' contributors often do not start with a new package, but with a 'fix'/'update'.
Actually it's based on an assumption that: the "new" contributor is coming to fix. to contribute. but that's no always true. there're another common case of contribution: the "new" contributor is an openSUSE user who locally configure && make && make install an application. finds that application is so good that he can't help & hold the emotion to have it included in openSUSE Distribution by default. What can he do? he don't even know how to write spec file and how to package. So he comes to our powerful wiki. found specfile guideline. and OBS tutorial. start it from fresh. After many trials, he made it in his home. According to the wiki, now he needs to submit it to a devel repository first then Factory. but which? dead end. or at least a lot pain to find out the correct repository. You may call it "grown up"...that's my experience. and that's why a lot of packages comes into openSUSE by my hands. But the wiki just said: find a correct repo. Actually we're missing something in the self-learning tutorial chain. Everyone is selfish according to economics book. If I can't even please my self with my package, how can I please others. so building in one's home is of a large percent of the newbies' first start than the assumption to fix. Even if the fix assumption is right, we're still wrong. Because nowadays our wiki is focusing on how to teach him to package instead of teach him to fix. if the fix assumption is true, we're leading the wrong way to the newbies. Anyway after 12.2 is released ( so many things to work before its release), I'll write such an layout for newbies. Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2012-08-30 at 23:59 +0800, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar <DimStar@opensuse.org> wrote:
'New' contributors often do not start with a new package, but with a 'fix'/'update'.
Actually it's based on an assumption that:
the "new" contributor is coming to fix. to contribute.
Yes, indeed.. that was one assumption formulated; but still, for this user we usually offer a too complex 'toolset', because all our wikis mention 'find the right devel project and branch from there', then use osc sr <devl project> to send it back (have seen many of those.. maybe they are all fixed already...)
the "new" contributor is an openSUSE user who locally configure && make && make install an application. finds that application is so good that he can't help & hold the emotion to have it included in openSUSE Distribution by default.
No doubt a very valid use case which we need to cater for as well. As Factory generally DOES have an exhaustive list of devel projects (submitting from any other project should give an auto-reject), I'm sure this list can be reproduced in Wiki form as well; giving a short description what's the 'main purpose' of any of the devel projects. Is this about in line with what you'd be thinking about? Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:56 AM, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger <dimstar@opensuse.org> wrote:
No doubt a very valid use case which we need to cater for as well. As Factory generally DOES have an exhaustive list of devel projects (submitting from any other project should give an auto-reject), I'm sure this list can be reproduced in Wiki form as well; giving a short description what's the 'main purpose' of any of the devel projects.
Is this about in line with what you'd be thinking about?
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/30/2012 05:59 PM, Marguerite Su wrote:
[...] After many trials, he made it in his home. According to the wiki, now he needs to submit it to a devel repository first then Factory. but which?
No dead end - ask! ;) New packages should get introduced on opensuse-factory first and as part of that the submitter can ask what the best devel project would be - and then somebody can volunteer and help if needed, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 3:08 AM, Andreas Jaeger <aj@suse.com> wrote:
No dead end - ask! ;) New packages should get introduced on opensuse-factory first and as part of that the submitter can ask what the best devel project would be - and then somebody can volunteer and help if needed,
Sure. but that is what I call "a lot of pain". New packages "could" get introduced on Factory list instead of "should", unless we enforce it. Help process costs time but improves community connection. can't tell whether it's good or bad. To someone it's good, to others it slows her down. eg: I translated openSUSE into Chinese in two month, 30000+ items. but I can just submit 200 line of KDE translations in a week. Why? because they can't find a skillful reviewer fast enough for me, actually I graduate from a language school which aims to train Chinese ambassador.... And actually ML and IRC are the successful output of last century. The new generation prefers Instant messaging or social tools. That's why there're online list archive tools which make it appears like a forum. Recalls the first time we met? I asked you a question on Google+. I think there're a lot of crying about why we developers don't show up in forums.o.o or twitter. If you are only available to help through your mailbox in front of your home yard or the only one telephone in your office. That help nearly means nothing in a so big world. Actually you made an assumption that the ones who can offer help is available through ML. The Chinese "team" page in zh.o.o only got 300+ views from we had wiki to now. After I added a gtalk group into it. now its almost 3000+ views. In short, I mean: * Human help slows someone down if she's a powerful Google user. * We can't force the potential contributors who never use a ML or IRC in her life before to use that only to find out information which should be documented. And also, having a layout doesn't compromise the human help but improves it. Because nowadays even maintainers don't know exactly the purpose of every repositories. They need a reference to mention too. Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 08:01:54 +0800 Marguerite Su <i@marguerite.su> wrote:
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 3:08 AM, Andreas Jaeger <aj@suse.com> wrote:
No dead end - ask! ;) New packages should get introduced on opensuse-factory first and as part of that the submitter can ask what the best devel project would be - and then somebody can volunteer and help if needed,
Sure. but that is what I call "a lot of pain". ... I translated openSUSE into Chinese in two month, 30000+ items. but I can just submit 200 line of KDE translations in a week. ...
In a few years all translations will be in :) How do you count items? Even in lines of text it is huge.
And actually ML and IRC are the successful output of last century. The new generation prefers Instant messaging or social tools. ...
It is about informational capacity of MLs and IRC channels. They are just too slow in reaction to query, and information transfer speed is too low. Without external links you can't even have complex answers with images, diagrams and videos. New generation of Linux users is different type of users then last century Linux fans. Linux fans were technically inclined, often developers, needed only hints to solve problems, and above all they wanted to play with Linux. It is like car user that is hobby, or professional, mechanic in love with its subject. Modern Linux users don't want to know about Linux more then car driver wants to know about car. When they are hit by a problem they want it solved, without learning any bit more how-stuff-works. The only difference between them and Windows, or MAC, users is that they want ability to change oil, or replace broken part, but not farther then that.
I think there're a lot of crying about why we developers don't show up in forums.o.o or twitter.
There is, but it is actually symptom of underlying problems. When advanced users can't help beginners, that means that they are lost in all changes that happen. When they feel lost then they cry for help from those with more knowledge - developers, but then comes in your next paragraph:
If you are only available to help through your mailbox in front of your home yard or the only one telephone in your office. That help nearly means nothing in a so big world.
One developer can answer to one user, not to all that have a problem. It is also unrealistic to expect that developers will do any good if they try to help beginners. The language they speak is full of expressions that they learned after few years of college and few more practice. Translating that to daily language means explaining what those special expressions mean, which will most likely pull in more secondary explanations and finally mount to the unsolvable problem in itself. The only way to solve this is to have communication between developers and halfway educated users, some kind of interest groups, or fandoms, so that there is someone that can actually answer to all users that have a problem, write wiki, make a movie.
Actually you made an assumption that the ones who can offer help is available through ML. The Chinese "team" page in zh.o.o only got 300+ views from we had wiki to now. After I added a gtalk group into it. now its almost 3000+ views.
In short, I mean:
* Human help slows someone down if she's a powerful Google user. * We can't force the potential contributors who never use a ML or IRC in her life before to use that only to find out information which should be documented.
:) Problem is also who is going to write that docs. Example of the problem for systemd. New thing to everybody. Only few of developers understand it. Docs that were written some time ago for unknown version of openSUSE and systemd, appear to be misleading. (Yesterday, on IRC, I was in position to guess what to do with http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Systemd and user that was looking to set up test system to check is his computer ready for update. User could not get systemd running. It was missing some bit somewhere. ) Developer wrote docs once with no notion what they relate to and never updated them. No one else has knowledge to keep docs up to date. What now? It would be not a problem if that is only one subject, but that is how it happens all over the wiki. It is more rule that docs are not checked for validity when revision of underlying software is changed then exception. In other words each developer, or software title, is missing fans that will take care of details, or notify responsible person about changes, so that developer can focus on software development, but docs are updated when needed.
And also, having a layout doesn't compromise the human help but improves it. Because nowadays even maintainers don't know exactly the purpose of every repositories. They need a reference to mention too.
Even if they know, they can't be available 24/7, so reference is must have. If no one is available, at least Google will find it. (Just checked some of http://en.opensuse.org/Special:LonelyPages and Google have them. )
Marguerite
-- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Donnerstag, 30. August 2012 schrieb Marguerite Su:
So we'd better have a wiki page called "OBS repositories layout" to catalog and explain them. This is good for both packagers and maintainers to get an overview.
This sounds like manual work to me, which also means it will always be outdated. (See also my hand-picked .sig ;-) I agree that a list of the repos with a short description is a good idea. BUT: This should be done inside OBS - add some flags to each repo (if needed and not there already) and create a page that displays those flags from all repos on a summary page. I'm quite sure this will be faster than collecting the details of all repos for a wiki page, and, more important, it will automatically be updated if a project description/flag changes. Regards, Christian Boltz -- The former solution seems to be a lot of "monkey work", [...] I don't think it would be viable on a long term approach. We better succeed in the latter approach.. or buy lot of banana :) [Rémy Marquis in opensuse-wiki] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 7:20 AM, Christian Boltz <opensuse@cboltz.de> wrote:
This sounds like manual work to me, which also means it will always be outdated. (See also my hand-picked .sig ;-)
Agreed. OBS flag implementation is much better that wiki. But the question is who to implement it? You need to convince that person and if he has time. I can only use the resource I'm familiar with..actually seems I'm the only person thinks it's helpful so far Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
Hey, On 31.08.2012 02:08, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 7:20 AM, Christian Boltz <opensuse@cboltz.de> wrote:
This sounds like manual work to me, which also means it will always be outdated. (See also my hand-picked .sig ;-)
Agreed. OBS flag implementation is much better that wiki.
But the question is who to implement it?
You need to convince that person and if he has time.
I can only use the resource I'm familiar with..actually seems I'm the only person thinks it's helpful so far
Not really. There is a very old feature request for it https://features.opensuse.org/306685 Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
participants (8)
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Alin M Elena -
Andreas Jaeger -
Christian Boltz -
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger -
Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar
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Henne Vogelsang -
Marguerite Su -
Rajko