On Fri, 2017-07-28 at 10:06 +0200, Johannes Meixner wrote:

Hello,

On Jul 27 13:26 Tomas Chvatal wrote (excerpt):

...

As per complains here that we should use URL rather than Url in the preamble of the spec-files I've decided to create quick doodle poll.

From parser perspective there is 0 difference but since there is vocal proposition for URL instead of Url that is now replaced by spec-cleaner.

Tag names are not case sensitive according to http://ftp.rpm.org/max-rpm/s1-rpm-inside-tags.html

...

https://beta.doodle.com/poll/9y6gfunm8bm8cz3b

Therefore all spellings that are listed in that poll Url URL urL uRl plus all other case insensitive spellings are valid.

I think things like "Url vs URL" is another case where the discussion moves away from what the actual root issue is towards a marginal "how to enhance a tool in a specific way" expert talk that is - as far as I see it - here even about nitpicking patronizing without providing real usefulness.

What is the benefit for openSUSE users and contributors to enforce a special openSUSE uniformity for spelling things like "Url vs URL" regardless that both are valid?

I need to repeat myself:

What is more important for openSUSE: Be open and accept diversity or enforce uniformity?

Hi Well from perspective of maintaining multiple packages, and possibility of future handover of maintanership of packages I would say that uniformity should be strongly preferred. Cheers Martin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday, 28 July 2017 14:17 Neal Gompa wrote:

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 8:10 AM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:

...

Just to put the stats to perspective too:

scarabeus@bugaboo: ~/tmp/openSUSE:Factory $ grep ^URL: *.spec |wc -l 48 scarabeus@bugaboo: ~/tmp/openSUSE:Factory $ grep ^Url: *.spec |wc -l 18344

Can those numbers be relied on, given that the spec file gets rewritten at commit and review/merge time?

Those numbers mostly reflect the fact that spec-cleaner enforces "Url" (now even in --minimal mode, in spite of its documentation), that our vim template prefills "Url", that some reviewers actively change the capitalization even in packages where it used to be written correctly etc. So the numbers can be (probably) relied upon to see what the current state is. It would be a mistake to understand them as an image of what package maintainers prefer. However, it's quite clear from this discussion (and earlier discussions on similar topics) that preferences of package maintainers do not matter anymore, comfort and preferences of project/distribution maintainers and reviewers are apparently considered more important. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday, 28 July 2017 14:32 Tomas Chvatal wrote:

Neal Gompa píše v Pá 28. 07. 2017 v 08:17 -0400:

...

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 8:10 AM, Tomas Chvatal

wrote:

...

Just to put the stats to perspective too:

scarabeus@bugaboo: ~/tmp/openSUSE:Factory $ grep ^URL: *.spec |wc -l 48 scarabeus@bugaboo: ~/tmp/openSUSE:Factory $ grep ^Url: *.spec |wc -l 18344

Can those numbers be relied on, given that the spec file gets rewritten at commit and review/merge time?

Most probably. But none can blame spec-cleaner for that, because I guess not all of you use it, esp since some hate it with quite passion

For the record: I don't hate spec-cleaner, I consider it a useful tool (not perfect, sure, but what is?) that I'm using myself from time to time. What I do hate - and, yes, one could even say with passion - is the idea that it (or anything else) should be used to enforce strict (or even absolute) uniformity of specfile layout and formatting through the whole distribution. As long as spec-cleaner just stays available as a tool for whoever wants to use it, as e.g. indent, I have no reason to hate it. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 9. August 2017, 22:56:16 CEST schrieb Jan Engelhardt:

[...] The specfiles on the other hand have their tags *consistently* camelcased from the words they were formed from, like {build architectures -> BuildArch}, {automatic requires and provides -> AutoReqProv}, etc. Except for {uniform resource location -> Url} which is the odd bit.

As I already told you, "Url" is perfect upper camel case! See https://google.github.io/styleguide/javaguide.html#s5.3-camel-case https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/standard/design-guidelines/ capitalization-conventions Gruß Jan -- Age is a high price to pay for maturity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 6:02 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Thursday 2017-08-10 20:10, Jan Ritzerfeld wrote:

...

Am Mittwoch, 9. August 2017, 22:56:16 CEST schrieb Jan Engelhardt:

...

[...] The specfiles on the other hand have their tags *consistently* camelcased from the words they were formed from, like {build architectures -> BuildArch}, {automatic requires and provides -> AutoReqProv}, etc. Except for {uniform resource location -> Url} which is the odd bit.

As I already told you, "Url" is perfect upper camel case! See https://google.github.io/styleguide/javaguide.html#s5.3-camel-case

"url" is not a word in a linguistic sense, but an acronym;

Technically speaking, it's an initialism, since you (typically) speak each letter as they represent something independent. Acronyms typically get spoken slurred as a word. U-R-L vs saying "earl" :) This is why "Url" bothers me so much. URL is a prominent and important initialism, just like IPv6, etc. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/11/2017 12:12 PM, Jan Ritzerfeld wrote:

Am Freitag, 11. August 2017, 00:02:38 CEST schrieb Jan Engelhardt:

...

On Thursday 2017-08-10 20:10, Jan Ritzerfeld wrote: [...]

...

As I already told you, "Url" is perfect upper camel case! See https://google.github.io/styleguide/javaguide.html#s5.3-camel-case

...

Sorry. I don't get it. The section explicitly cares about acronyms or unusual constructs like "IPv6" or "iOS". Just have a look at the first example: "XML HTTP request". "XMLHTTPRequest" is the incorrect one and thus "URL". Or the second one: "new customer ID". "newCustomerID" is the incorrect one and thus "URL". And even "supports IPv6 on iOS?". "supportsIPv6OnIOS" is the incorrect one and thus "URL".

I see that the linked style guide (this is a question of style as tag names are case insensitive) is from Google for Java. Since SUSE is not Google and RPM spec files are not Java, I don't see any reason why this style guide is applicable. Even if the linked guide is used just to say "what camel case is", there are other people who think acronyms and/or initialisms can/should be all caps in camel case. In fact this Fedora document https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_create_an_RPM_package#SPEC_file_overvi... has the URL tag name as all uppercase. Is there an OpenSUSE document (a style guide) that says spec file tag names should be in upper camel case, and further clarifies that upper camel case means that initialisms and acronyms should be rendered like "Url"? If so, then so be it, otherwise I think the discussion here is what should such a document say. -- Jason Craig -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/12/2017 04:19 AM, Jan Ritzerfeld wrote:

Am Freitag, 11. August 2017, 15:31:29 CEST schrieb Jason Craig:

...

[...] I see that the linked style guide (this is a question of style as tag names are case insensitive) is from Google for Java.

Or Microsoft: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/standard/design-guidelines/ capitalization-conventions Or Rust: https://doc.rust-lang.org/1.0.0/style/style/naming/README.html

So MS, who brought us XMLHttpRequest? Whose genesis was an interface named IXMLHTTPRequest? To many people, including me, Microsoft is not an authority to follow when it comes to software development.

...

Since SUSE is not Google and RPM spec files are not Java, I don't see any reason why this style guide is applicable.

So, where is the style guide that says otherwise and justifies this change request? I agree with Marcus and do not see a point in changing one specific name without having a general naming convention!

This is precisely what I'm advocating, perhaps I'm being too implicit?

...

Even if the linked guide is used just to say "what camel case is", there are other people who think acronyms and/or initialisms can/should be all caps in camel case. In fact this Fedora document https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_create_an_RPM_package#SPEC_file_overvi ew has the URL tag name as all uppercase.

I don't think that using all upper acronyms and initialisms is a good idea since it generates unreadable names like XMLHTTPOSIDRequest.

And we can find ways in which lower-casing the letters makes acronyms or initialisms unreadable. In fact, you could argue any initialism becomes unreadable because you say each letter and lower-casing tends to make one read it as a word. I would rather a guide suggest not to create indentifiers with multiple adjacent acronyms or initialisms regardless of capitalization than use such examples to argue why you should capitalize one way or another.

...

Is there an OpenSUSE document (a style guide) that says spec file tag names should be in upper camel case, and further clarifies that upper camel case means that initialisms and acronyms should be rendered like "Url"? If so, then so be it, otherwise I think the discussion here is what should such a document say.

A naming convention should be applied as broadly as possible and not only to RPM tag names. Using different definitions just because it's another "language" doesn't make life easier. How many naming conventions should I read when I create or maintain a package?

All well and good, but in that case aren't RPM tags most like parameters or variables? I believe all the linked examples have had these types of identifiers in lower camel case.

Gruß Jan

-- Jason Craig -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

The voting is done. The decision is made. No one left to influence. Can we drop the discussion? On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 3:41 PM, Jan Ritzerfeld wrote:

Am Montag, 14. August 2017, 09:49:45 CEST schrieb Jason Craig:

...

On 08/12/2017 04:19 AM, Jan Ritzerfeld wrote: [...]

...

Or Microsoft: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/standard/design-guidelines/ capitalization-conventions Or Rust: https://doc.rust-lang.org/1.0.0/style/style/naming/README.html

So MS, who brought us XMLHttpRequest?

Pardon? I don't think that any of the links I posted states that XMLHttpRequest is correct, even the microsoft one. [...]

...

[...] All well and good, but in that case aren't RPM tags most like parameters or variables? I believe all the linked examples have had these types of identifiers in lower camel case.

Exactly. However, does URL looks like lower camel case for you?

Gruß Jan -- Nothing will be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/14/2017 09:16 AM, Adam Spiers wrote:

Jason Craig wrote:

...

Is there an OpenSUSE document (a style guide) that says spec file tag names ^^^^^^^^

...

should be in upper camel case, and further clarifies that upper camel case means that initialisms and acronyms should be rendered like "Url"?

It's "openSUSE" - sorry, but since this whole bike shed discussion is about capitalisation, I could not resist pointing that out ;-)

+1 for pedantry! :) -- Jason Craig -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Jan Ritzerfeld wrote:

Am Montag, 14. August 2017, 16:16:38 CEST schrieb Adam Spiers:

...

[...] It's "openSUSE" - sorry, but since this whole bike shed discussion is about capitalisation, I could not resist pointing that out ;-)

Says the guy with the ugly colored bike shed!

"coloured" ;-p -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org