[opensuse-packaging] Can we merge infinality patch set from fedora into freetype2 in M17N and Factory?

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Marguerite Su

13 Feb 2012 13 Feb '12

14:44

Hiya, all, I sent this email mainly to M17N developers(all kinds of, including myself), because comment area in request is not a good place to gather ideas and suggestions. anyway, it's still an open discussion. infinality (http://www.infinality.net) is a patch set against Freetype2, especially against its sub-pixel rendering. it's been developed by infinality team and used on Fedora for a long time. so stability is not a problem. It can significantly improve the display of almost any fonts in openSUSE, especially CJK fonts( they are almost the most complicated font sets in the world) . I've built a package and placed it in home:opensuse_zh, test results gathered from Chinese Community shows welcome. you can test it there. And really, to be honest, the sub-pixel patch existed in Freetype2 now is a draft work, sometimes a mess. it just enables sub-pixel, but takes no care of how sub-pixel rendering is applied to fonts. But it has disadvantage too, the most famous LD_PRELOAD warning in /etc/profiles.d/freetype-infinality.sh. It preloads 64bit library by default. so when you run some 32bit programs, there will be a warning in terminal( if you run programs using it), but the display is still good. that LD_PRELOAD warning, according to official, still can't be fixed by replacing functions. they haven't figured out a way to switch between architectures. and it has no *.csh provided. so any patches and fork are welcome, coz I know little about writing shell scripts. In my personal view, I think it should be replaced. but as it's a serious thing replacing a package source existing in Factory. so I need your wise advises. Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

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Ilya Chernykh

13 Feb 13 Feb

13:47

On Monday 13 February 2012 18:44:02 Marguerite Su wrote:

...

I sent this email mainly to M17N developers(all kinds of, including myself), because comment area in request is not a good place to gather ideas and suggestions. anyway, it's still an open discussion.

infinality (http://www.infinality.net) is a patch set against Freetype2, especially against its sub-pixel rendering. it's been developed by infinality team and used on Fedora for a long time. so stability is not a problem.

It can significantly improve the display of almost any fonts in openSUSE, especially CJK fonts( they are almost the most complicated font sets in the world) . I've built a package and placed it in home:opensuse_zh, test results gathered from Chinese Community shows welcome. you can test it there.

And really, to be honest, the sub-pixel patch existed in Freetype2 now is a draft work, sometimes a mess. it just enables sub-pixel, but takes no care of how sub-pixel rendering is applied to fonts.

I used Fedora sometimes ago and their sub-pixel rendering was much worser than that on Ubuntu and openSUSE with the same settings. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Marguerite Su

14:57

It's a optional package in fedora called freetype2-infinality (some kinds of). you have to install it manually. so of course they renders worse than us. you can try that package in home:opensuse_zh and feedback. my personal experience is awesome... since it's an awesome patch set. I think we should absorb it into our default settings in default package. and the code shows it renders better than our existing default. On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 9:47 PM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

...

I used Fedora sometimes ago and their sub-pixel rendering was much worser than that on Ubuntu and openSUSE with the same settings. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Nelson Marques

14:59

Fedora doesn't need a patch, all that is required is to remove the default font config from fedora and use the config of Ubuntu, that by itself will improve greatly the font display ;) Just try it and let us know. NM 2012/2/13 Marguerite Su :

...

It's a optional package in fedora called freetype2-infinality (some kinds of).

you have to install it manually. so of course they renders worse than us.

you can try that package in home:opensuse_zh and feedback. my personal experience is awesome...

since it's an awesome patch set. I think we should absorb it into our default settings in default package. and the code shows it renders better than our existing default.

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 9:47 PM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

...
I used Fedora sometimes ago and their sub-pixel rendering was much worser than that on Ubuntu and openSUSE with the same settings. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

-- Nelson Marques /* http://www.marques.so nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Marguerite Su

15:56

that patch set does the same work. only difference is it is more complicated. On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:59 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

Fedora doesn't need a patch, all that is required is to remove the default font config from fedora and use the config of Ubuntu, that by itself will improve greatly the font display ;)

Just try it and let us know.

NM

2012/2/13 Marguerite Su :

...
It's a optional package in fedora called freetype2-infinality (some kinds of).

you have to install it manually. so of course they renders worse than us.

you can try that package in home:opensuse_zh and feedback. my personal experience is awesome...

since it's an awesome patch set. I think we should absorb it into our default settings in default package. and the code shows it renders better than our existing default.

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 9:47 PM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

...
I used Fedora sometimes ago and their sub-pixel rendering was much worser than that on Ubuntu and openSUSE with the same settings. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

-- Nelson Marques

/* http://www.marques.so nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Frederic Crozat

15:10

Le lundi 13 février 2012 à 22:57 +0800, Marguerite Su a écrit :

...

It's a optional package in fedora called freetype2-infinality (some kinds of).

No, it is not an "optional package in Fedora", the infinality people are just providing a package for Fedora, but Fedora doesn't "endorse" this patch. -- Frederic Crozat SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Marguerite Su

16:13

I think any packages not provided by default can be called "optional". they include the ones shipped in ISO and the ones remains in user home. A distribution never "endorse" anything. It's just "impartial" to all of them. On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

Le lundi 13 février 2012 à 22:57 +0800, Marguerite Su a écrit :

...
It's a optional package in fedora called freetype2-infinality (some kinds of).

No, it is not an "optional package in Fedora", the infinality people are just providing a package for Fedora, but Fedora doesn't "endorse" this patch.

-- Frederic Crozat SUSE

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Takashi Iwai

14:59

At Mon, 13 Feb 2012 17:47:47 +0400, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

...

On Monday 13 February 2012 18:44:02 Marguerite Su wrote:

...
I sent this email mainly to M17N developers(all kinds of, including myself), because comment area in request is not a good place to gather ideas and suggestions. anyway, it's still an open discussion.

infinality (http://www.infinality.net) is a patch set against Freetype2, especially against its sub-pixel rendering. it's been developed by infinality team and used on Fedora for a long time. so stability is not a problem.

It can significantly improve the display of almost any fonts in openSUSE, especially CJK fonts( they are almost the most complicated font sets in the world) . I've built a package and placed it in home:opensuse_zh, test results gathered from Chinese Community shows welcome. you can test it there.

And really, to be honest, the sub-pixel patch existed in Freetype2 now is a draft work, sometimes a mess. it just enables sub-pixel, but takes no care of how sub-pixel rendering is applied to fonts.

I used Fedora sometimes ago and their sub-pixel rendering was much worser than that on Ubuntu and openSUSE with the same settings.

I have also a similar impression. The infinality patch didn't improve so much about many fonts we're using as default. (For example, freetype2 in M17N:Devel contains some patches.) If it brings some improvements in some area, great, we should take it. But it must be done carefully, not to worsen any others. IIRC, the patch retains the old rendering methods, right? If so, we can take the new rendering, but enables it selectively only for really known working fonts, or make it specific to languages. thanks, Takashi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Takashi Iwai

15:05

At Mon, 13 Feb 2012 15:59:48 +0100, Takashi Iwai wrote:

...

At Mon, 13 Feb 2012 17:47:47 +0400, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

...
On Monday 13 February 2012 18:44:02 Marguerite Su wrote:

...
I sent this email mainly to M17N developers(all kinds of, including myself), because comment area in request is not a good place to gather ideas and suggestions. anyway, it's still an open discussion.

infinality (http://www.infinality.net) is a patch set against Freetype2, especially against its sub-pixel rendering. it's been developed by infinality team and used on Fedora for a long time. so stability is not a problem.

It can significantly improve the display of almost any fonts in openSUSE, especially CJK fonts( they are almost the most complicated font sets in the world) . I've built a package and placed it in home:opensuse_zh, test results gathered from Chinese Community shows welcome. you can test it there.

And really, to be honest, the sub-pixel patch existed in Freetype2 now is a draft work, sometimes a mess. it just enables sub-pixel, but takes no care of how sub-pixel rendering is applied to fonts.

I used Fedora sometimes ago and their sub-pixel rendering was much worser than that on Ubuntu and openSUSE with the same settings.

I have also a similar impression. The infinality patch didn't improve so much about many fonts we're using as default. (For example, freetype2 in M17N:Devel contains some patches.)

If it brings some improvements in some area, great, we should take it. But it must be done carefully, not to worsen any others.

IIRC, the patch retains the old rendering methods, right? If so, we can take the new rendering, but enables it selectively only for really known working fonts, or make it specific to languages.

But, of course, it doesn't mean that we can take it for FACTORY and enable the sub-pixel rendering immediately -- until the legal issue is cleared by our legal team. I know infinality guys saying it's legal, but they are no lawyers, just like most of us. Takashi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Marguerite Su

16:09

yes, of course, we all not lawyers. I hope it is legal, or infinality team will be in trouble. On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 11:05 PM, Takashi Iwai wrote:

...

But, of course, it doesn't mean that we can take it for FACTORY and enable the sub-pixel rendering immediately -- until the legal issue is cleared by our legal team.

I know infinality guys saying it's legal, but they are no lawyers, just like most of us.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Marguerite Su

16:03

yes, it deals with CJK, old-times, propietary and everyone-knows-its-bad fonts. not our default fonts. even not Chinese default one before I patched that patch set. I was to make some groups of users happy without hurting existing happy ones. I have no idea about rendering methods or engines. I just know it looks good to some of us. to my knowledge, a less than 500k patch set can't do the engine work. On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:59 PM, Takashi Iwai wrote:

...

I have also a similar impression. The infinality patch didn't improve so much about many fonts we're using as default. (For example, freetype2 in M17N:Devel contains some patches.)

If it brings some improvements in some area, great, we should take it. But it must be done carefully, not to worsen any others.

IIRC, the patch retains the old rendering methods, right? If so, we can take the new rendering, but enables it selectively only for really known working fonts, or make it specific to languages.

thanks,

Takashi

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Nelson Marques

14:55

2012/2/13 Marguerite Su :

...

Hiya, all,

I sent this email mainly to M17N developers(all kinds of, including myself), because comment area in request is not a good place to gather ideas and suggestions. anyway, it's still an open discussion.

infinality (http://www.infinality.net) is a patch set against Freetype2, especially against its sub-pixel rendering. it's been developed by infinality team and used on Fedora for a long time. so stability is not a problem.

Hi, Hasn't the sub-pixel rendering issue been fixed already in 2010? If so, there's not much to do is there? Furthermore! Please double check this: do the fonts we ship with support sub-pixel hinting? Because if they don't, the patch won't do any miracles at all... NM

...

It can significantly improve the display of almost any fonts in openSUSE, especially CJK fonts( they are almost the most complicated font sets in the world) . I've built a package and placed it in home:opensuse_zh, test results gathered from Chinese Community shows welcome. you can test it there.

And really, to be honest, the sub-pixel patch existed in Freetype2 now is a draft work, sometimes a mess. it just enables sub-pixel, but takes no care of how sub-pixel rendering is applied to fonts.

But it has disadvantage too, the most famous LD_PRELOAD warning in /etc/profiles.d/freetype-infinality.sh. It preloads 64bit library by default. so when you run some 32bit programs, there will be a warning in terminal( if you run programs using it), but the display is still good. that LD_PRELOAD warning, according to official, still can't be fixed by replacing functions. they haven't figured out a way to switch between architectures. and it has no *.csh provided. so any patches and fork are welcome, coz I know little about writing shell scripts.

In my personal view, I think it should be replaced. but as it's a serious thing replacing a package source existing in Factory. so I need your wise advises.

Marguerite -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Marguerite Su

15:12

Sorry, but in 2010 I'm an outside normal desktop user instead of a packager. I have no idea of that issue. And furthermore I'm afraid sub-pixel rendering issue is a long-live and never-truly-fixed issue in openSUSE community. because core developers of Freetype2 and openSUSE never ever tested their works on CJK...they even don't know how a "usable" CJK font rending looks like...in Chinese community, if you can adjust fonts.conf properly, you will be called "Master" of openSUSE. At least this infinality patch set can help us out of that weird thing. instead of adjusting overnights to get a usable environment( of course without help from propietary fonts by MS or Apple), they provide a usable environment within a few clicks. Almost all modern CJK fonts support sub-pixel rendering, including default shipped with openSUSE. and to a font does not support that function, infinality is not poison. Marguerite On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:55 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

Hi,

Hasn't the sub-pixel rendering issue been fixed already in 2010? If so, there's not much to do is there? Furthermore! Please double check this: do the fonts we ship with support sub-pixel hinting? Because if they don't, the patch won't do any miracles at all...

NM -- Nelson Marques

/* http://www.marques.so nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Nelson Marques

15:18

2012/2/13 Marguerite Su :

...

Sorry, but in 2010 I'm an outside normal desktop user instead of a packager. I have no idea of that issue.

Maybe it would be nice to check.

...

And furthermore I'm afraid sub-pixel rendering issue is a long-live and never-truly-fixed issue in openSUSE community. because core developers of Freetype2 and openSUSE never ever tested their works on CJK...they even don't know how a "usable" CJK font rending looks like...in Chinese community, if you can adjust fonts.conf properly, you will be called "Master" of openSUSE.

The problem with the sub-pixel hinting isn't related to to people not caring, it's relating to DRM/DRI and patents, that's what has been stopping distributions (Fedora and openSUSE) from shipping with it.

...

At least this infinality patch set can help us out of that weird thing. instead of adjusting overnights to get a usable environment( of course without help from propietary fonts by MS or Apple), they provide a usable environment within a few clicks.

Doesn't matter if it violates patents or is tainted with DRM. We have export laws to honor.

...

Almost all modern CJK fonts support sub-pixel rendering, including default shipped with openSUSE. and to a font does not support that function, infinality is not poison.

It's not poison, but if it breaks patents and DRM it might mean LAW SUIT, and either SUSE or Red Hat are good targets for those processes. As far as I know the only fonts that support sub-pixel hinting in full for Linux are actually the microsoft core fonts, none of the others supports fully sub-pixel hinting (and Ubuntu Family Fonts most likely). The default GNOME fonts do not fully support sub-pixel hinting (at least they didnt last time I checked).

...

Marguerite

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:55 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:

...
Hi,

Hasn't the sub-pixel rendering issue been fixed already in 2010? If so, there's not much to do is there? Furthermore! Please double check this: do the fonts we ship with support sub-pixel hinting? Because if they don't, the patch won't do any miracles at all...

NM -- Nelson Marques

/* http://www.marques.so nmo.marques@gmail.com */

Ilya Chernykh

14:24

On Monday 13 February 2012 19:18:00 Nelson Marques wrote:

...

It's not poison, but if it breaks patents and DRM it might mean LAW SUIT, and either SUSE or Red Hat are good targets for those processes. As far as I know the only fonts that support sub-pixel hinting in full for Linux are actually the microsoft core fonts, none of the others supports fully sub-pixel hinting (and Ubuntu Family Fonts most likely). The default GNOME fonts do not fully support sub-pixel hinting (at least they didnt last time I checked).

What do you mean under "support subpixel hinting"? Liberation fonts, DejaVu (altough I don't like it), Monospace and all other fonts I use, all look excellent with subpixel hinting. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Marguerite Su

16:26

wqy-zenhei-fonts wqy-microhei-fonts look no excellence with sub-pixel rendering of your kind. On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:24 PM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

...

On Monday 13 February 2012 19:18:00 Nelson Marques wrote:

...
It's not poison, but if it breaks patents and DRM it might mean LAW SUIT, and either SUSE or Red Hat are good targets for those processes. As far as I know the only fonts that support sub-pixel hinting in full for Linux are actually the microsoft core fonts, none of the others supports fully sub-pixel hinting (and Ubuntu Family Fonts most likely). The default GNOME fonts do not fully support sub-pixel hinting (at least they didnt last time I checked).

What do you mean under "support subpixel hinting"? Liberation fonts, DejaVu (altough I don't like it), Monospace and all other fonts I use, all look excellent with subpixel hinting. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Marguerite Su

16:24

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 11:18 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

2012/2/13 Marguerite Su :

...
Sorry, but in 2010 I'm an outside normal desktop user instead of a packager. I have no idea of that issue.

Maybe it would be nice to check.

I'm not learning HISTORY in this mailing list. now the fact is: existing freetype2 renders most of our fonts good, but leaves some ones bad. unluckily I'm among the bad font users. and most of the bad fonts are CJK ones. It distorts the user experience of a whole huge group of people.

...

...
And furthermore I'm afraid sub-pixel rendering issue is a long-live and never-truly-fixed issue in openSUSE community. because core developers of Freetype2 and openSUSE never ever tested their works on CJK...they even don't know how a "usable" CJK font rending looks like...in Chinese community, if you can adjust fonts.conf properly, you will be called "Master" of openSUSE.

The problem with the sub-pixel hinting isn't related to to people not caring, it's relating to DRM/DRI and patents, that's what has been stopping distributions (Fedora and openSUSE) from shipping with it.

Yes, that's why we need our loyal legal team.

...

...
At least this infinality patch set can help us out of that weird thing. instead of adjusting overnights to get a usable environment( of course without help from propietary fonts by MS or Apple), they provide a usable environment within a few clicks.

Doesn't matter if it violates patents or is tainted with DRM. We have export laws to honor.

...
Almost all modern CJK fonts support sub-pixel rendering, including default shipped with openSUSE. and to a font does not support that function, infinality is not poison.

It's not poison, but if it breaks patents and DRM it might mean LAW SUIT, and either SUSE or Red Hat are good targets for those processes. As far as I know the only fonts that support sub-pixel hinting in full for Linux are actually the microsoft core fonts, none of the others supports fully sub-pixel hinting (and Ubuntu Family Fonts most likely). The default GNOME fonts do not fully support sub-pixel hinting (at least they didnt last time I checked).

we don't need font-support-hinting-in-full. can't expect that much. support in a little helps a lot.

...

...
Marguerite

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:55 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:

...
Hi,

Hasn't the sub-pixel rendering issue been fixed already in 2010? If so, there's not much to do is there? Furthermore! Please double check this: do the fonts we ship with support sub-pixel hinting? Because if they don't, the patch won't do any miracles at all...

NM -- Nelson Marques

/* http://www.marques.so nmo.marques@gmail.com */

-- Nelson Marques

/* http://www.marques.so nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

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Frederic Crozat
Ilya Chernykh
Marguerite Su
Nelson Marques
Takashi Iwai