[opensuse-packaging] When to use recommends?

Greg Freemyer

9 Apr 2013 9 Apr '13

12:47

All, How is the decision made to have a recommends statement made? == my situation I packaged fio for 12.3. Fio is a performance testing tool for disk subsystems. One of its features is it can produce plots viewable via gnuplot so there is a recommends gnuplot in the specfile. I've just had a user raise the concern that on a server gnuplot brings in a ton of desktop related packages. Further he argues he would run fio on the server, but gnuplot on his desktop. I can see both sides of this, but I am inclined to remove the recommends statement. Greg -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

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Cristian Morales Vega

9 Apr 9 Apr

12:58

On 9 April 2013 13:47, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

All,

How is the decision made to have a recommends statement made?

== my situation

I packaged fio for 12.3.

Fio is a performance testing tool for disk subsystems. One of its features is it can produce plots viewable via gnuplot so there is a recommends gnuplot in the specfile.

I've just had a user raise the concern that on a server gnuplot brings in a ton of desktop related packages. Further he argues he would run fio on the server, but gnuplot on his desktop.

I can see both sides of this, but I am inclined to remove the recommends statement.

Why? The whole point of being a *recommendation* is that the concerned user can decide to ignore it if he wants to. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Morales Vega

13:01

On 9 April 2013 13:58, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

On 9 April 2013 13:47, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...
All,

How is the decision made to have a recommends statement made?

== my situation

I packaged fio for 12.3.

Fio is a performance testing tool for disk subsystems. One of its features is it can produce plots viewable via gnuplot so there is a recommends gnuplot in the specfile.

I've just had a user raise the concern that on a server gnuplot brings in a ton of desktop related packages. Further he argues he would run fio on the server, but gnuplot on his desktop.

I can see both sides of this, but I am inclined to remove the recommends statement.

Why? The whole point of being a *recommendation* is that the concerned user can decide to ignore it if he wants to.

Or "suggest" it instead of recommending it if you want to change the default action. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer

16:05

On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

On 9 April 2013 13:58, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...
On 9 April 2013 13:47, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...
All,

How is the decision made to have a recommends statement made?

== my situation

I packaged fio for 12.3.

Fio is a performance testing tool for disk subsystems. One of its features is it can produce plots viewable via gnuplot so there is a recommends gnuplot in the specfile.

I've just had a user raise the concern that on a server gnuplot brings in a ton of desktop related packages. Further he argues he would run fio on the server, but gnuplot on his desktop.

I can see both sides of this, but I am inclined to remove the recommends statement.

Why? The whole point of being a *recommendation* is that the concerned user can decide to ignore it if he wants to.

Or "suggest" it instead of recommending it if you want to change the default action.

Okay I changed it to Suggests in my home package. I have to say, that is almost like not having it in the specfile at all from what I see. zypper seems to totally ignore "suggested" packages and I don't see a way to make it pop them up to the user interactively. Yast2 also seems not to have a way to install suggested packages. I did see that in Yast2 I can look at the dependencies tab for fio and see that gnuplot is suggested, but how many users are going to do that. If opensuse is going to have suggests be a legit keyword in the specfile, then zypper and yast should have some way to present that suggestion to the user. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Michael Schroeder

16:24

On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 12:05:33PM -0400, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

Okay I changed it to Suggests in my home package.

I have to say, that is almost like not having it in the specfile at all from what I see.

zypper seems to totally ignore "suggested" packages and I don't see a way to make it pop them up to the user interactively.

Yast2 also seems not to have a way to install suggested packages.

There's a "Suggested Packages" Group in the "Package Groups" selection, which shows you all of the suggested packages. There's also the "Unneeded Packages" Group, which contains all packages you might no longer need. Yes, it's totally obscure, it shows that nobody cases about the YaST UI anymore... Cheers, Michael. -- Michael Schroeder mls@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF Jeff Hawn, HRB 16746 AG Nuernberg main(_){while(_=~getchar())putchar(~_-1/(~(_|32)/13*2-11)*13);} -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Malcolm

16:34

New subject: [opensuse-packaging] Re: When to use recommends?

On Tue 09 Apr 2013 12:05:33 PM CDT, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...
On 9 April 2013 13:58, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...
On 9 April 2013 13:47, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...
All,

How is the decision made to have a recommends statement made?

== my situation

I packaged fio for 12.3.

Fio is a performance testing tool for disk subsystems. One of its features is it can produce plots viewable via gnuplot so there is a recommends gnuplot in the specfile.

I've just had a user raise the concern that on a server gnuplot brings in a ton of desktop related packages. Further he argues he would run fio on the server, but gnuplot on his desktop.

I can see both sides of this, but I am inclined to remove the recommends statement.

Why? The whole point of being a *recommendation* is that the concerned user can decide to ignore it if he wants to.

Or "suggest" it instead of recommending it if you want to change the default action.

Okay I changed it to Suggests in my home package.

I have to say, that is almost like not having it in the specfile at all from what I see.

zypper seems to totally ignore "suggested" packages and I don't see a way to make it pop them up to the user interactively.

Yast2 also seems not to have a way to install suggested packages.

I did see that in Yast2 I can look at the dependencies tab for fio and see that gnuplot is suggested, but how many users are going to do that.

If opensuse is going to have suggests be a legit keyword in the specfile, then zypper and yast should have some way to present that suggestion to the user.

Greg Hi Why not create a sub package that has a requires on gnuplot, basically just metadata to pull in if the user wants to add it?

-- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE 12.3 (x86_64) Kernel 3.7.10-1.1-desktop up 2:41, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.06, 0.16 CPU Intel® i5 CPU M520@2.40GHz | GPU Intel® Ironlake Mobile -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer

22:24

New subject: [opensuse-packaging] Re: When to use recommends?

On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Malcolm wrote:

...

On Tue 09 Apr 2013 12:05:33 PM CDT, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...
On 9 April 2013 13:58, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...
On 9 April 2013 13:47, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...
All,

How is the decision made to have a recommends statement made?

== my situation

I packaged fio for 12.3.

Fio is a performance testing tool for disk subsystems. One of its features is it can produce plots viewable via gnuplot so there is a recommends gnuplot in the specfile.

I've just had a user raise the concern that on a server gnuplot brings in a ton of desktop related packages. Further he argues he would run fio on the server, but gnuplot on his desktop.

I can see both sides of this, but I am inclined to remove the recommends statement.

Why? The whole point of being a *recommendation* is that the concerned user can decide to ignore it if he wants to.

Or "suggest" it instead of recommending it if you want to change the default action.

Okay I changed it to Suggests in my home package.

I have to say, that is almost like not having it in the specfile at all from what I see.

zypper seems to totally ignore "suggested" packages and I don't see a way to make it pop them up to the user interactively.

Yast2 also seems not to have a way to install suggested packages.

I did see that in Yast2 I can look at the dependencies tab for fio and see that gnuplot is suggested, but how many users are going to do that.

If opensuse is going to have suggests be a legit keyword in the specfile, then zypper and yast should have some way to present that suggestion to the user.

Greg Hi Why not create a sub package that has a requires on gnuplot, basically just metadata to pull in if the user wants to add it?

something like fio-gnuplot? That way people searching for fio find it? If that's appropriate, I'll do it. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Claudio Freire

23:29

New subject: [opensuse-packaging] Re: When to use recommends?

...

...
...
...
...
On 9 April 2013 13:47, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...
Fio is a performance testing tool for disk subsystems. One of its features is it can produce plots viewable via gnuplot so there is a recommends gnuplot in the specfile.

I've just had a user raise the concern that on a server gnuplot brings in a ton of desktop related packages. Further he argues he would run fio on the server, but gnuplot on his desktop. ... Why not create a sub package that has a requires on gnuplot, basically just metadata to pull in if the user wants to add it?

something like fio-gnuplot? That way people searching for fio find it?

If that's appropriate, I'll do it.

I don't think it's such a stretch that any user trying to parse (gnuplot-compatible) output from fio would look for gnuplot, not fio. With that in mind, subpackage doesn't seem to make sense. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Křištof Želechovski

10 Apr 10 Apr

18:24

New subject: [opensuse-packaging] Re: When to use recommends?

Dnia wtorek, 9 kwietnia 2013 11:34:51 Malcolm pisze:

...

On Tue 09 Apr 2013 12:05:33 PM CDT, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Cristian Morales Vega

wrote:

...
On 9 April 2013 13:58, Cristian Morales Vega

wrote:

...
On 9 April 2013 13:47, Greg Freemyer

wrote:

...
All,

Fio is a performance testing tool for disk subsystems. One of its features is it can produce plots viewable via gnuplot so there is a recommends gnuplot in the specfile.

I've just had a user raise the concern that on a server gnuplot brings in a ton of desktop related packages. Further he argues he would run fio on the server, but gnuplot on his desktop.

Hi Why not create a sub package that has a requires on gnuplot, basically just metadata to pull in if the user wants to add it?

That would be like a tool that produces plain text offering a subpackage that requires xmore. Requirements are for the tool to be able to run, not for the user to be able to make use of the result. The mimehandler incantation is for the latter, and that usually brings a list of packages to choose from. IMHO, Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Johannes Meixner

11 Apr 11 Apr

07:50

New subject: [opensuse-packaging] Re: When to use recommends?

Hello, On Apr 10 20:24 K?ištof Želechovski wrote (excerpt):

...

Dnia wtorek, 9 kwietnia 2013 11:34:51 Malcolm pisze:

...
...
...
...
On 9 April 2013 13:47, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...
Fio is a performance testing tool for disk subsystems. One of its features is it can produce plots viewable via gnuplot so there is a recommends gnuplot in the specfile.

Why not create a sub package that has a requires on gnuplot, basically just metadata to pull in if the user wants to add it?

That would be like a tool that produces plain text offering a subpackage that requires xmore. Requirements are for the tool to be able to run, not for the user to be able to make use of the result.

Another issue with RPM Requires versus RPM Recommends is the setup of package build systems (in particular in the openSUSE Build Service). Therefore: Keep RPM Requires as small as possible - i.e. only what is really mandatory to let the software run. See https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=776080#c39 Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH -- Maxfeldstrasse 5 -- 90409 Nuernberg -- Germany HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendoerffer

Michal Kubeček

9 Apr 9 Apr

13:11

On Tuesday 09 of April 2013 13:58EN, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

On 9 April 2013 13:47, Greg Freemyer wrote: Why? The whole point of being a *recommendation* is that the concerned user can decide to ignore it if he wants to.

I would agree if OpenSuSE didn't install all recommended packages by default (or there weren't so many of them that manual selection in installer is highly impractical). The way it is now, essentially the only difference between Requires and Recommends is that the latter allows you to manually uninstall the package without having to suppress the dependencies. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

686f6c6d

13:28

On a server, the thorough admin has "installRecommends = no" in /etc/zypper.conf or he/she/* uses "zypper in --no-recommends fio". I wouldn't change the recommendation in this case. Many of the default distro packages/patterns pull in packages that aren't needed on servers (hundreds in 12.1 and before; there seemed to be a lot less in 12.2; for 12.3, I haven't created my private list yet). -- Kind regards Christopher 'm4z' Holm / 686f6c6d "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." --H. L. Mencken -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Křištof Želechovski

10 Apr 10 Apr

18:28

Dnia wtorek, 9 kwietnia 2013 15:28:03 686f6c6d pisze:

...

On a server, the thorough admin has "installRecommends = no" in /etc/zypper.conf or he/she/* uses "zypper in --no-recommends fio".

I wouldn't change the recommendation in this case. Many of the default distro packages/patterns pull in packages that aren't needed on servers (hundreds in 12.1 and before; there seemed to be a lot less in 12.2; for 12.3, I haven't created my private list yet).

Apropos, why does daps pull Emacs? Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Morales Vega

9 Apr 9 Apr

13:34

On 9 April 2013 14:11, Michal Kubeček wrote:

...

On Tuesday 09 of April 2013 13:58EN, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...
On 9 April 2013 13:47, Greg Freemyer wrote: Why? The whole point of being a *recommendation* is that the concerned user can decide to ignore it if he wants to.

I would agree if OpenSuSE didn't install all recommended packages by default (or there weren't so many of them that manual selection in installer is highly impractical).

If we are talking about this specific case there aren't "so many", there is just one. Unselect it in YaST or use "zypper in fio -gnuplot". If we are talking about a more general problem, * In zypper zypper in --no-recommends /etc/zypp/zypper.conf:installRecommends * Globally /etc/zypp/zypp.conf:solver.onlyRequires (sure, it would be nice to have GUI tools for it) We have the whole set of dependencies: Requires, Recommends and Suggests (plus soft dependencies the other way around). Just use whatever fits best. But in any case in this specific example there exists a relationship between the two packages. The correct fix surely is not to ignore the fact. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org

Adam Mizerski

15:35

W dniu 09.04.2013 14:47, Greg Freemyer pisze:

...

All,

How is the decision made to have a recommends statement made?

== my situation

I packaged fio for 12.3.

Fio is a performance testing tool for disk subsystems. One of its features is it can produce plots viewable via gnuplot so there is a recommends gnuplot in the specfile.

I've just had a user raise the concern that on a server gnuplot brings in a ton of desktop related packages. Further he argues he would run fio on the server, but gnuplot on his desktop.

I can see both sides of this, but I am inclined to remove the recommends statement.

Greg

Hi, Have a look at this: http://www.rpm.org/wiki/DynamicDependencies In your case gnuplot should be in "Suggests" statement. -- Adam "etamPL" Mizerski

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686f6c6d
Adam Mizerski
Claudio Freire
Cristian Morales Vega
Greg Freemyer
Johannes Meixner
Křištof Želechovski
Malcolm
Michael Schroeder
Michal Kubeček

[opensuse-packaging] When to use recommends?

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