[opensuse-packaging] RFC: Guidelines change - change of guidelines change process
Hi all, during compilation of the changes in packaging wiki, I have found one unclear thing, which resulted in the removal of Category:Packaging_documentation from two pages. But the fault belongs to us, because we did not make clear the following Category:Packaging_documentation is the **official** one and should be added only as a result of the review here on a list. The current phrasing """ Each page should have a [[Category:Packaging documentation]] """ is confusing. I dislike the naming of the category as well. At the moment we have two mostly overlapped packaging categories. Category:Packaging documentation with 34 pages http://en.opensuse.org/Category:Packaging_documentation Category:Packaging with 38 http://en.opensuse.org/Category:Packaging The Category documentation is intended to be the official and reviewed one, but I consider the naming extremly confusing. For that reason, I propose following 1. Create Category:Packaging_guidelines - this makes the purpose of the category clear 2. Document this category is the **official** one - on Category description page, either on guidelines change page 3. Put things, are reviewed to the category I'm afraid only Lua guidelines can be moved, atm 4. Request the addition of things from _documentation to _guidelines this will be long-term process, because for a sanity of us, only few pages should be reviewed on this ML 5. Once finished, drop the _documentation category BTW: I'm volunteer for the category moving process, but it will be better if it can be requested by interested people. Waiting on your feedback Michal Vyskocil
On 12/04/2012 11:05 AM, Michal Vyskocil wrote:
Hi all,
during compilation of the changes in packaging wiki, I have found one unclear thing, which resulted in the removal of Category:Packaging_documentation from two pages. But the fault belongs to us, because we did not make clear the following
Category:Packaging_documentation is the **official** one and should be added only as a result of the review here on a list. The current phrasing
""" Each page should have a
[[Category:Packaging documentation]] """
is confusing. I dislike the naming of the category as well. At the moment we have two mostly overlapped packaging categories.
Category:Packaging documentation with 34 pages http://en.opensuse.org/Category:Packaging_documentation
Category:Packaging with 38 http://en.opensuse.org/Category:Packaging
The Category documentation is intended to be the official and reviewed one, but I consider the naming extremly confusing. For that reason, I propose following
1. Create Category:Packaging_guidelines - this makes the purpose of the category clear 2. Document this category is the **official** one - on Category description page, either on guidelines change page 3. Put things, are reviewed to the category I'm afraid only Lua guidelines can be moved, atm 4. Request the addition of things from _documentation to _guidelines this will be long-term process, because for a sanity of us, only few pages should be reviewed on this ML
so, you propose we discuss each and every page patch before we add Packaging_guidelines - as a way to sanity check what we have?
5. Once finished, drop the _documentation category
BTW: I'm volunteer for the category moving process, but it will be better if it can be requested by interested people.
Waiting on your feedback
I'll like it in general - since nobody disagreed with it, let's document it and start ;). but first, please clarify step 4, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 1:56 PM, Andreas Jaeger <aj@suse.com> wrote:
On 12/04/2012 11:05 AM, Michal Vyskocil wrote:
Hi all,
during compilation of the changes in packaging wiki, I have found one unclear thing, which resulted in the removal of Category:Packaging_documentation from two pages. But the fault belongs to us, because we did not make clear the following
Category:Packaging_documentation is the **official** one and should be added only as a result of the review here on a list. The current phrasing
""" Each page should have a
[[Category:Packaging documentation]] """
is confusing. I dislike the naming of the category as well. At the moment we have two mostly overlapped packaging categories.
Category:Packaging documentation with 34 pages http://en.opensuse.org/Category:Packaging_documentation
Category:Packaging with 38 http://en.opensuse.org/Category:Packaging
The Category documentation is intended to be the official and reviewed one, but I consider the naming extremly confusing. For that reason, I propose following
1. Create Category:Packaging_guidelines - this makes the purpose of the category clear 2. Document this category is the **official** one - on Category description page, either on guidelines change page 3. Put things, are reviewed to the category I'm afraid only Lua guidelines can be moved, atm 4. Request the addition of things from _documentation to _guidelines this will be long-term process, because for a sanity of us, only few pages should be reviewed on this ML
so, you propose we discuss each and every page patch before we add Packaging_guidelines - as a way to sanity check what we have?
5. Once finished, drop the _documentation category
BTW: I'm volunteer for the category moving process, but it will be better if it can be requested by interested people.
Waiting on your feedback
I'll like it in general - since nobody disagreed with it, let's document it and start ;). but first, please clarify step 4,
Andreas
If this is really going to happen, can the name be Category:Packaging_Guidelines_Official Then it is self-evident they are official. And then maybe rename the current Category:Packaging to Category:Packaging_Guidelines_Staging That way there is a place for unapproved guidelines to live during that review process. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 14:30:05 -0500 Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer@gmail.com> wrote:
Category:Packaging_Guidelines_Official ... Category:Packaging_Guidelines_Staging
Note that we use Wikipedia capitalization where only proper nouns are capitalized, not every word. In other words: Category:Packaging_guidelines_official Category:Packaging_guidelines_staging Or even better: ------------------------------------------------ Category:Packaging_guidelines and Category:Packaging_guidelines_(staging) ------------------------------------------------ Reasons: Categories can't be renamed, so when you change name, you have to visit all articles that belong to category and change name in the article. Category:Packaging_guidelines is part of the link: http://en.opensuse.org/Category:Packaging_guidelines and as we all know links that are used for some time are mentioned in other web pages, readme files, other documents, and they will live as long as openSUSE. In other words we can add staging category, but we can't change existing one without having problems with a lot of people. We had that when we created current wiki and fixed a lot of article titles, to learn that old titles were used in a lot of places, including printed documents. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 07:56:24PM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On 12/04/2012 11:05 AM, Michal Vyskocil wrote:
Hi all,
during compilation of the changes in packaging wiki, I have found one unclear thing, which resulted in the removal of Category:Packaging_documentation from two pages. But the fault belongs to us, because we did not make clear the following
Category:Packaging_documentation is the **official** one and should be added only as a result of the review here on a list. The current phrasing
""" Each page should have a
[[Category:Packaging documentation]] """
is confusing. I dislike the naming of the category as well. At the moment we have two mostly overlapped packaging categories.
Category:Packaging documentation with 34 pages http://en.opensuse.org/Category:Packaging_documentation
Category:Packaging with 38 http://en.opensuse.org/Category:Packaging
The Category documentation is intended to be the official and reviewed one, but I consider the naming extremly confusing. For that reason, I propose following
1. Create Category:Packaging_guidelines - this makes the purpose of the category clear 2. Document this category is the **official** one - on Category description page, either on guidelines change page 3. Put things, are reviewed to the category I'm afraid only Lua guidelines can be moved, atm 4. Request the addition of things from _documentation to _guidelines this will be long-term process, because for a sanity of us, only few pages should be reviewed on this ML
so, you propose we discuss each and every page patch before we add Packaging_guidelines - as a way to sanity check what we have?
Hi Andreas, yes - this is a great opportunity for us to discuss already existing documentation. On the end everything under _guidelines category will be reviewed by our shiny new process. Regards Michal Vyskocil
5. Once finished, drop the _documentation category
BTW: I'm volunteer for the category moving process, but it will be better if it can be requested by interested people.
Waiting on your feedback
I'll like it in general - since nobody disagreed with it, let's document it and start ;). but first, please clarify step 4,
Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 11:05:24 +0100 Michal Vyskocil <mvyskocil@suse.cz> wrote:
5. Once finished, drop the _documentation category
I would not do that :) Packaging_documentation is base for listing of other articles: https://en.opensuse.org/Special:WhatLinksHere/Category:Packaging_documentati... in other words: https://en.opensuse.org/Template:Packaging_docnav is based on that category. I know that naming could be different for this particular purpose, like Packaging_navigation, but when I did a change, current name was first that appeared as appropriate to collect articles and to last long. Reason for two categories is that not all in Category:Packaging should be listed in documentation list. IMHO, for me this is sort from larger to smaller domain: Packaging - Packaging_documentation - Packaging_guidelines Guidelines are subset of documentation and that is subset of packaging. As of right now difference is small, as Guidelines are major portion of documentation, and as we have no habit to publish example scripts in the wiki, there is almost nothing else that will go in packaging category except Portal:Packaging. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday, December 18, 2012 19:39:58 Rajko wrote:
On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 11:05:24 +0100
Michal Vyskocil <mvyskocil@suse.cz> wrote:
5. Once finished, drop the _documentation category
I would not do that :)
Packaging_documentation is base for listing of other articles: https://en.opensuse.org/Special:WhatLinksHere/Category:Packaging_docum entation in other words: https://en.opensuse.org/Template:Packaging_docnav is based on that category.
I know that naming could be different for this particular purpose, like Packaging_navigation, but when I did a change, current name was first that appeared as appropriate to collect articles and to last long.
But we could change that, couldn't we?
Reason for two categories is that not all in Category:Packaging should be listed in documentation list.
IMHO, for me this is sort from larger to smaller domain:
Packaging - Packaging_documentation - Packaging_guidelines
Guidelines are subset of documentation and that is subset of packaging.
I don't see the difference than between Packaging and Packaging_documentation. I would categorize guidelines and documentation as follows: Guidelines is the law - you shall do it this way documentation is the interpretation: Tips, tricks, howtos
As of right now difference is small, as Guidelines are major portion of documentation, and as we have no habit to publish example scripts in the wiki, there is almost nothing else that will go in packaging category except Portal:Packaging.
Yes, we should define what exactly should be used, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:35:59 +0100 Andreas Jaeger <aj@suse.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, December 18, 2012 19:39:58 Rajko wrote:
On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 11:05:24 +0100 ... But we could change that, couldn't we?
Yes, if there is volunteer to visit all pages, so that navigation is still in tact.
... Guidelines are subset of documentation and that is subset of packaging.
I don't see the difference than between Packaging and Packaging_documentation.
I would categorize guidelines and documentation as follows: Guidelines is the law - you shall do it this way documentation is the interpretation: Tips, tricks, howtos
Guidelines are bylaws; in essence mandatory instructions how to do something. Tips, tricks, howtos, are not mandatory, but with guidelines they make documentation, in this case for packaging. Scripts are gray zone, while they can be included in any other form of documents, it would be nice to have them tagged with another category, have them on separate pages (protection and revision history), and when practical transcluded into other articles. We don't use this very much, but rather put scripts in a version control, or keep at home computer, far from users that should be aware of them.
As of right now difference is small, as Guidelines are major portion of documentation, and as we have no habit to publish example scripts in the wiki, there is almost nothing else that will go in packaging category except Portal:Packaging.
Yes, we should define what exactly should be used,
* Packaging - as common category and catch it all for cases where author doesn't know where to put a new article. ** Packaging_documentation for all documents sans scripts, images, lists images. ** Packaging_guidelines - for mandatory part. ** Packaging_howtos - for non-mandatory howtos, tips, tricks ** Packaging_scripts - for scripts that one can copy and paste ** Packaging_images - for article decoration, logos and flow diagrams ** Packaging_lists - for package lists as in packages to drop, to include, for sale, maintainers, minimum maintenance, need an expert, etc. Example of list is what Christian Morales Vega is publishing on mail list as a Factory Status, and it could be published semi automaticly in the wiki, and with some imagination it can be made easy to make it click to mail, click to add name, click to jump to OBS and so on. In other words with little effort we can make wiki central hub for part of textual and visual information that doesn't fit other venues, or that is too far from contributor's attention when elsewhere.
Andreas
-- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 07:49:30PM -0600, Rajko wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:35:59 +0100 Andreas Jaeger <aj@suse.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, December 18, 2012 19:39:58 Rajko wrote:
On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 11:05:24 +0100 ... But we could change that, couldn't we?
Yes, if there is volunteer to visit all pages, so that navigation is still in tact.
Hi Rajko, thanks for a notice - I will take this into the account!
... Guidelines are subset of documentation and that is subset of packaging.
I don't see the difference than between Packaging and Packaging_documentation.
I would categorize guidelines and documentation as follows: Guidelines is the law - you shall do it this way documentation is the interpretation: Tips, tricks, howtos
Guidelines are bylaws; in essence mandatory instructions how to do something. Tips, tricks, howtos, are not mandatory, but with guidelines they make documentation, in this case for packaging.
Scripts are gray zone, while they can be included in any other form of documents, it would be nice to have them tagged with another category, have them on separate pages (protection and revision history), and when practical transcluded into other articles. We don't use this very much, but rather put scripts in a version control, or keep at home computer, far from users that should be aware of them.
As of right now difference is small, as Guidelines are major portion of documentation, and as we have no habit to publish example scripts in the wiki, there is almost nothing else that will go in packaging category except Portal:Packaging.
Yes, we should define what exactly should be used,
* Packaging - as common category and catch it all for cases where author doesn't know where to put a new article. ** Packaging_documentation for all documents sans scripts, images, lists images. ** Packaging_guidelines - for mandatory part. ** Packaging_howtos - for non-mandatory howtos, tips, tricks ** Packaging_scripts - for scripts that one can copy and paste ** Packaging_images - for article decoration, logos and flow diagrams ** Packaging_lists - for package lists as in packages to drop, to include, for sale, maintainers, minimum maintenance, need an expert, etc.
not sure if that's a joke, or not A personal note: I would say one of the problem in openSUSE is that we are overcategorized*. I don't know if that has a cultural background, or not. My feeling is that we should accept some fuziness of the reality and don't try to organize everything. In most of the cases it's pointless * examples are RPM Groups, number of mailinglists (shouldn't be this one discussed at opensuse-wiki instead?), or my favourite one - the number of devel projects in a buildservice So unless you're voluntering to make those categories up to date in a wiki, my approach is worse is better. IOW less categories are better than more, so I see only three possible candidates Category:Packaging - the most general one Category:Packaging_guidelines - those are reviewed and are mandatory Category:Packaging_guidelines_$drafts - those are requested, but not reviewed But for myself the third one is pointless - having the temporary category is not that usefull.
Example of list is what Christian Morales Vega is publishing on mail list as a Factory Status, and it could be published semi automaticly in the wiki, and with some imagination it can be made easy to make it click to mail, click to add name, click to jump to OBS and so on.
In other words with little effort we can make wiki central hub for part of textual and visual information that doesn't fit other venues, or that is too far from contributor's attention when elsewhere.
I am not sure I understood - my motivation behind Categories is that I run a script pull everything from defined category, add it to git repo and once a month I can generate a diff shows me, what have happened to write a report. If you're asking for making wiki pages with Factory statuses or so, this is probably offtopic here. But I'm sure those pages can be under Category:Packaging ;-) Regards Michal Vyskocil
On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 11:15:04 +0100 Michal Vyskocil <mvyskocil@suse.cz> wrote:
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 07:49:30PM -0600, Rajko wrote: ... Hi Rajko,
thanks for a notice - I will take this into the account!
Thanks :) ..
* Packaging - as common category and catch it all for cases where author doesn't know where to put a new article. <few more categories removed>
not sure if that's a joke, or not
Not really. Unlike RPM groups example, where one package belongs to one group, wiki articles can be categorized in few categories. Categories are not just index that should have each item in exactly one place, it is more like tags. Each article can have as many as appropriate.
A personal note: I would say one of the problem in openSUSE is that we are overcategorized*. ...
I must agree on this, although my mind in this case was on having enough options to tag articles, so that one can have clear view what he is looking at.
So unless you're voluntering to make those categories up to date in a wiki, my approach is worse is better. IOW less categories are better than more, so I see only three possible candidates
Category:Packaging - the most general one Category:Packaging_guidelines - those are reviewed and are mandatory Category:Packaging_guidelines_$drafts - those are requested, but not reviewed
But for myself the third one is pointless - having the temporary category is not that usefull.
It is useful to have place for those are not official yet, and they are not mixed with official. Other can be added when needed.
Example of list is what Christian Morales Vega is publishing on mail ...
Example was just to tell that we can do with wiki a lot more then we do now, and, in a process, make life of everyone much easier. It was not meant as specific advice what you should do :)
I am not sure I understood - my motivation behind Categories is that I run a script pull everything from defined category, add it to git repo and once a month I can generate a diff shows me, what have happened to write a report.
For reports about changes you can use your own watch list and monitor it with Atom feed. You will know about changes as soon as they happen. I have to check, but I think that recent wiki versions allow to put whole category in a watch list. When you going to check feed is up to you. I prefer notification as soon as change happen, as that prevents accumulation of changes after one that I want to correct. If git format is easier on you then you can use that, but number of categories is not a problem :)
If you're asking for making wiki pages with Factory statuses or so, this is probably offtopic here. But I'm sure those pages can be under Category:Packaging ;-)
Right, it was just example :)
Regards Michal Vyskocil
-- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 05:20:27PM -0600, Rajko wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 11:15:04 +0100 Michal Vyskocil <mvyskocil@suse.cz> wrote:
Hallo all, sorry for the top posting. Lets restart the discussion and summarize things. At the moment, there are 4 proposed categories for a wiki Category:Packaging - the superset of all other Packaging categories Category:Packaging_documentation - used for a navbar (so guidelines+few more tips and examples) Category:Packaging_guidelines - used for official guidleines, which were discussed here Category:Packaging_drafts - things (to be) proposed as official guidlines The policy is simple, only things in a Packaging_guidelines category will be reviewed, otherwise people can assign category as they want to. And it's good to have Category:Packaging in all packaging related pages. [Category:Packaging|Category:Packaging_drafts] Happy new-post-end-of-the-world-year '13 Michal Vyskocil
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 07:49:30PM -0600, Rajko wrote: ... Hi Rajko,
thanks for a notice - I will take this into the account!
Thanks :)
..
* Packaging - as common category and catch it all for cases where author doesn't know where to put a new article. <few more categories removed>
not sure if that's a joke, or not
Not really.
Unlike RPM groups example, where one package belongs to one group, wiki articles can be categorized in few categories. Categories are not just index that should have each item in exactly one place, it is more like tags. Each article can have as many as appropriate.
A personal note: I would say one of the problem in openSUSE is that we are overcategorized*. ...
I must agree on this, although my mind in this case was on having enough options to tag articles, so that one can have clear view what he is looking at.
So unless you're voluntering to make those categories up to date in a wiki, my approach is worse is better. IOW less categories are better than more, so I see only three possible candidates
Category:Packaging - the most general one Category:Packaging_guidelines - those are reviewed and are mandatory Category:Packaging_guidelines_$drafts - those are requested, but not reviewed
But for myself the third one is pointless - having the temporary category is not that usefull.
It is useful to have place for those are not official yet, and they are not mixed with official. Other can be added when needed.
Example of list is what Christian Morales Vega is publishing on mail ...
Example was just to tell that we can do with wiki a lot more then we do now, and, in a process, make life of everyone much easier. It was not meant as specific advice what you should do :)
I am not sure I understood - my motivation behind Categories is that I run a script pull everything from defined category, add it to git repo and once a month I can generate a diff shows me, what have happened to write a report.
For reports about changes you can use your own watch list and monitor it with Atom feed. You will know about changes as soon as they happen. I have to check, but I think that recent wiki versions allow to put whole category in a watch list. When you going to check feed is up to you. I prefer notification as soon as change happen, as that prevents accumulation of changes after one that I want to correct.
If git format is easier on you then you can use that, but number of categories is not a problem :)
If you're asking for making wiki pages with Factory statuses or so, this is probably offtopic here. But I'm sure those pages can be under Category:Packaging ;-)
Right, it was just example :)
Regards Michal Vyskocil
-- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
Rereading my answer after it was posted I found some missing stuff. On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 11:15:04 +0100 Michal Vyskocil <mvyskocil@suse.cz> wrote:
So unless you're voluntering to make those categories up to date in a wiki, my approach is worse is better. IOW less categories are better than more, so I see only three possible candidates
Just to make sure that there is no misunderstanding: https://en.opensuse.org/Help:Category Now to the point: Maintenance is actually split between two: 1) Taking care that articles have [[Category:<XYZ>]] tag(s) 2) Keeping description of category in Category:<XYZ> up to date 1) is almost impossible if article is not categorized at least with its general grouping, in this case Packaging. Browsing https://en.opensuse.org/Special:UncategorizedPages is easy, but what to do with pages that are miscategorized, or in a some similar category created because right one could not be found, or that new category is misspelled, and so on. Then maintainer will have to run trough long list of all article to correct errors. BTW, above was another reason to create Packaging_documentation that is almost identical to Packaging. Packaging_documentation is hand selection of what should be indexed in navigation, unlike Packaging that is catch-it-all for people that don't know where exactly to put their article. Why I did not remove from Packaging all that is already in Packaging_documentation? Most likely because I was focused to create navigation, not to cleanup Category:Packaging, and I had no time to enjoy results and see need for cleanup. That is also a reason to have whole a lot of categories in my proposal. Some are wishes, what it could be done to make packaging more affordable hobby, some are what I see as potential improvement to wiki navigation. As a side note: We should have this for all major topics, so that search for lost packages is not almost hopeless undertaking. Also, topics like this are not better discussed on opensuse-web list, as web guys are not experts for every topic and can't know what wording is the most appropriate. We can look at a problem and try to find solution when wording leads to conflicts. There tools, ie. disambiguation pages, for this and it is not expected that everybody knows about them. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-packaging+owner@opensuse.org
participants (4)
-
Andreas Jaeger -
Greg Freemyer -
Michal Vyskocil -
Rajko