On 06.12.20 12:18, Chris Punches wrote:
To no one in particular here --
Journald has, for years now, been a standard with overwhelming adoption and precedent, and logging patterns that rely on other mechanisms like logrotate should be viewed as legacy in 2020 -- and generally are by most users.
This still does not make ist suitable for every use case. I do use the journal, usually have even persistent journal enabled, but am also additionally using a syslog daemon for the case that I actually need to urgently find something in the logs. Which is easy and fast with grep and friends, and takes days with journalctl. The journal database has been described by a developer that was tasked to fix the issue for us as "generally designed as a write-only system", optimizes for fast writes. But apparently this makes it almost impossible to fix the "it is slow as molasses and cannot even be enhanced with more CPU power" problems. So the only solution to this is "add another level of indirection" (see RFC1925) and use a syslog solution that additionally logs to plain files. Which can be read quickly.
The SystemV fight was lost. It's done. it's over. It's no longer time to adopt systemd. That time has passed. Pursuing legacy logging patterns over personal preference is generally bad for package continuity.
This has nothing to do with the sysvinit fight. It is just that journald is unsuitable beyond the scope of its developer's notebook. It has proven so multiple times in the past. So we need a workaround since we no longer realistically can get rid of it as you correctly state.
If you go this no-systemd route discussed here you'll eventually be doing it alone.
Nobody in this thread talked about going a "no-systemd route2. It's just about not breaking everyone's setup. While Thorsten is right that it should be possible to install a system without syslog and logrotate, and that packages that do not even log anyhting in /var/log in their shipped default configuration have no business to recommend or even require syslog and logrotate at all, your idea of "just rip that all out and drop logrotate and syslog" will lead to useless, unusable systems. Being a useful solution for lots of use cases (and many beyound "journal developer's notebook") is one of openSUSE's goals, at least that's how I understand it. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman