addition of packages for MicroOS Desktop pattern
Hi, As Richard declined my request #864095 and I got some comments on my earlier request #863654 I would like to sent an email now with the reasoning of my request. (also added beforehand as a comment on the build page for the patterns-microos [1]). Thanks for pointing me in the direction of how to get my changes approved. First of all, I am NOT a developer, I am merely a guy who understands computers as a hobby and is really into the idea of an immutable OS for desktop usage. This was my very first commit to something on build.opensuse.org and my second on an openSUSE project [2] (and in general). I was not aware that we first need to discuss a few package additions via the Mailing List + add the change to the changes file + re-add my previous comments on my old request and comment on the main build page. I was just thinking that I would help out by trying to do these changes by myself so it would safe you some time. As I have installed MicroOS on my laptop several times now (been using it since Dario created his blogpost with how he got it up and running), installed it on my family's computers and have helped numerous people with their setup of MicroOS as a desktop install. Some of these people are experienced linux users, some are not. My request for nano is based on my personal history of linux as almost all manuals on the internet (that I have used in the past) talk about using nano and nano is actually understandable from a beginner level on how to safe and exit the program, vim on the other hand is NOT. Also making changes to files inside the transactional-update shell can only be done from the terminal. I understand MicroOS desktop is sharing a base with MicroOS as a server and Kubic. I would assume more knowledgeable users install MicroOS as server or actually have a use-case for Kubic. Desktop users (and especially beginners) are different, they follow manuals online and need help in getting stuff done. MicroOS Desktop, for me, is not a minimal install with an additional layer of difficulty of installing packages and making it usable. For me it is an extra stable installation where the root file system can't be changed during boot, so doing an upgrade it will not harm my current system and if something failed it automatically boots into the previous snapshot. This is for me a very reassuring idea as I use this laptop for work and don't like to hotfix trouble with an upgrade, while I do like upgrading everything when there is a new release. My MicroOS install ,with 1,397 packages (of which 1,339 (rpm), 49 (flatpak) and 9 (snap)), has for example snapd + a few other repos from OBS and Firefox installed as a RPM with Packman enabled, as I do not think Flatpaks are the answer for everything and I do not feel comfortable using Toolbox for everything else. (for Firefox for example downloading kept going wrong on my Firefox flatpak and I had to restart every download and then it would work; plus a rpm install of Firefox is usable for installing extensions, I did try it with Chromium, but about 4 out of 10 times that I go to extensions.gnome.org, Chromium crashes.. And I also don't enjoy installing chromium for just that use-case) As such I am proposing the following: Include these packages in patterns-microos-desktop-common: - nano; explained above, it is a beginner friendly text editor; - bash-completion; I prefer the completion to make sure I type the commands correctly plus it safes time; - unzip; moved from gnome-pattern as it is also usable for KDE (or future different desktop environments); - wget; moved from gnome-pattern as it is also usable for KDE (or future different desktop environments); - nfs-client; I'm sure other people want to automount usb drives too; - autofs; I'm sure other people want to automount usb drives too Also to remove kdeconnect-kde from the desktop-kde pattern as i don't think it is necessary for every install + if someone wants it they can install it easily themselves. I understand this email got quite a bit longer than I first anticipated, but I just want to make my self clear that even though MicroOS for desktops is still in an Alpha state, I want to bring this project further and make it actually usable for most users, including those that do not understand linux in the same way that you (the developers) do. Thanks, Syds [1] https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/devel:kubic/patterns-microos [2] https://github.com/openSUSE/openSUSE-docs-revamped/blob/dev/project/docs/mic...
On Mon, 2021-01-18 at 20:01 +0100, Syds Bearda wrote:
Hi,
Hey, Hi Syds!
As Richard declined my request #864095 and I got some comments on my earlier request #863654 I would like to sent an email now with the reasoning of my request. (also added beforehand as a comment on the build page for the patterns-microos [1]). Thanks for pointing me in the direction of how to get my changes approved.
Ok.
First of all, I am NOT a developer, I am merely a guy who understands computers as a hobby and is really into the idea of an immutable OS for desktop usage. This was my very first commit to something on build.opensuse.org and my second on an openSUSE project [2] (and in general).
Sure! And I think it's actually gorgeous that, after all you've been doing for the MicroOS Desktop project already, you decided to step-up even further and try to play with it within OBS as well! :-)
I was not aware that we first need to discuss a few package additions via the Mailing List + add the change to the changes file + re-add my previous comments on my old request and comment on the main build page. I was just thinking that I would help out by trying to do these changes by myself so it would safe you some time.
Well... It's a process that one needs to learn. And it's perfectly ok to make mistakes, while doing it. So, discussing changes on the mailing list is not really strictly necessary. As you've seen, you can propose these kind of changes directly, and then they are discussed on OBS itself. Or maybe the discussion will be moved to the ML, or maybe even a little bit on IRC... Depends what's most comfortable, on a case by case basis. Most of the time, IME, things just stay in OBS. At the same time, if the change is big, or potentially controversial or you are just not sure yourself, you indeed may want to come here in the first place, to seek opinions and advice and help making up your mind and/or finding the best possible solution. E.g., you've seen that I started that thread about browsers here, because I wasn't sure of what to do (and, as a matter of fact, I still am not... In fact I've not submitted any change to that effect :-P). OTOH, describing your changes in the changelog, that is indeed necessary. It's one of those things that I was referring to when I said above that one has to learn how to do certain things. And, again, I think it's perfectly fine to learn as you do. I guess that, at this point, you've learned this bit already. :-) IAC, just in case it's useful, I can provide a couple of links to some docs that I think it's worth taking a look at: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_Tutorial https://openbuildservice.org/help/manuals/obs-user-guide/art.obs.bg.html https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Packaging_guidelines https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Creating_a_changes_file_(RPM) Now, for working with a package such as patterns-microos, it's definitely not necessary that you become proficient with all the aspects of all these documents. But maybe give them a look... They do mention, e.g., stuff like the fact that we want changelog entries and why that is the case. Finally, I'm nost sure what you mean by "re-add my previous comments on my old request and comment on the main build page".... This may be specific of how these requests that you did went, and be due to the fact that you're moving your first steps in this territory. :-D
As I have installed MicroOS on my laptop several times now (been using it since Dario created his blogpost with how he got it up and running), installed it on my family's computers and have helped numerous people with their setup of MicroOS as a desktop install. Some of these people are experienced linux users, some are not.
Yeah, and you're doing an incredible job at that, and a great service to the project, if you ask me!
My request for nano is based on my personal history of linux as almost all manuals on the internet (that I have used in the past) talk about using nano and nano is actually understandable from a beginner level on how to safe and exit the program, vim on the other hand is NOT. Also making changes to files inside the transactional- update shell can only be done from the terminal.
Ok, so, on a more technical standpoint, all your reasoning makes sense to me, especially for MicroOS Desktop. So, jumping to the bullet points at the bottom of this message, and also looking at https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/866840
[...]
As such I am proposing the following:
Include these packages in patterns-microos-desktop-common: - nano; explained above, it is a beginner friendly text editor;
I personally agree with others about not having two editors in "base MicroOS". If, however, you feel strong about MicroOS Desktop needing to have the nano editor (as you seem to feel), you can create a request that adds it to the desktop-common package. As Richard and Thorsten said, we care a lot about having absolutely no duplication in the base pattern. But that, although still true, it's less of a concern for Desktop patterns.
- bash-completion; I prefer the completion to make sure I type the commands correctly plus it safes time;
Here I agree with you that it's useful to have bash-completion installed in MicroOS Desktop. In fact, until now that it was not in the pattern, I always install it. :-P So, this can again go in desktop common. And in fact, if you look at request #866840, you'll see that it's being proposed for going there.
- unzip; moved from gnome-pattern as it is also usable for KDE (or future different desktop environments); - wget; moved from gnome-pattern as it is also usable for KDE (or future different desktop environments);
That also seems like it will happen. :-)
- nfs-client; I'm sure other people want to automount usb drives too; - autofs; I'm sure other people want to automount usb drives too
Mmm... I don't think we need these two packages for mounting USB drives or external disks. In fact, mounting drives and disks should already work, even without these twos. You may have seen them being mentioned in one of my talks or posts... But what I said (or at least what I wanted to say) was that I add them manually because I use them, not that they're necessary for things like mounting USB stuff. So, despite being something that I personally use and add to my MicroOS Desktop installs, I think I agree with others about these two not being really generic and widely used.
Also to remove kdeconnect-kde from the desktop-kde pattern as i don't think it is necessary for every install + if someone wants it they can install it easily themselves.
No comment here, as I'm not touching anything related to KDE! :-P
I understand this email got quite a bit longer than I first anticipated, but I just want to make my self clear that even though MicroOS for desktops is still in an Alpha state, I want to bring this project further and make it actually usable for most users, including those that do not understand linux in the same way that you (the developers) do.
And this is, I think, very clear. And your great effort toward that
goal are really much appreciated!
Thanks again and Regards
--
Dario Faggioli, Ph.D
http://about.me/dario.faggioli
Virtualization Software Engineer
SUSE Labs, SUSE https://www.suse.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------------
<
participants (2)
-
Dario Faggioli
-
Syds Bearda