On Tue, Jan 04, 2011 at 08:45:42PM +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

Hi,

as part of project Evergreen we will have to release security updates for the Linux kernel shipped with 11.1 which is 2.6.27.x and apparently the branch SLE11_BRANCH of the kernel-source repo. So we would like to use this as a base to create packages. The question right now is what will happen with that branch from your side?

What "side" are you referring to here?

Will someone touch it again once or is it just a dead branch for you? I'm just wondering if we should clone it or if the branch will be used still?

It will be used to get a few random security updates over time, and other fixes that some customers ask for. But they should be pretty easy to merge with. Also, if you want, we (well at least I), would be glad to merge any changes that you make back into the main SLE11_BRANCH if they are sane, so feel free to send patches for the branch and I will be glad to review them. thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+help@opensuse.org

Am 04.01.2011 21:39, schrieb Greg KH:

On Tue, Jan 04, 2011 at 08:45:42PM +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

...

Hi,

as part of project Evergreen we will have to release security updates for the Linux kernel shipped with 11.1 which is 2.6.27.x and apparently the branch SLE11_BRANCH of the kernel-source repo. So we would like to use this as a base to create packages. The question right now is what will happen with that branch from your side?

What "side" are you referring to here?

The "Novell" side ;-) Actually I was referring to anyone. Just to know if I could clone and forget or if I should monitor the branch for changes. Stuff like that.

...

Will someone touch it again once or is it just a dead branch for you? I'm just wondering if we should clone it or if the branch will be used still?

It will be used to get a few random security updates over time, and other fixes that some customers ask for. But they should be pretty easy to merge with.

Also, if you want, we (well at least I), would be glad to merge any changes that you make back into the main SLE11_BRANCH if they are sane, so feel free to send patches for the branch and I will be glad to review them.

I'm far away from being a kernel hacker unfortunately. I might just end up being the one trying to merge security patches I find somewhere into that kernel to keep 11.1 running. The changes I would need right now are some to the spec file templates as I cannot rely on SUSE's internal PDB to fix package descriptions up. So I'm planning to go through the templates and fill in useful text. Thanks, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+help@opensuse.org

Am 04.01.2011 22:02, schrieb Greg KH:

On Tue, Jan 04, 2011 at 09:50:41PM +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

...

I'm far away from being a kernel hacker unfortunately. I might just end up being the one trying to merge security patches I find somewhere into that kernel to keep 11.1 running. The changes I would need right now are some to the spec file templates as I cannot rely on SUSE's internal PDB to fix package descriptions up. So I'm planning to go through the templates and fill in useful text.

Ick, no, don't do that, just use obs and the scripts we have for generating packages directly from the kernel git tree, and you will not need to edit any of those template files at all.

I use OBS and if you check your kernel:SLE11_BRANCH project you will find that your kernel packages there have exactly that issue. All have summary "Dummy summary" and description "Dummy description".

And if you all don't have someone to maintain your kernel, that actually knows how to handle kernel security issues, that might be a good thing to fix before thinking that Evergreen is going to be a viable platform that someone can actually trust.

Yes, and I never claimed something else. And given the responses to my initiative up to now I'm inclined to stop my efforts asap. It's not fun (and not possible) to drive this a one man show so apparently noone out there needs it. I also don't need it just for my private little dedicated server. I can and should just use CentOS. I was thinking there is a gap in our offers and we would find people to join in. That wasn't the case yet and I still wanted to start the experiment with 11.1 and would never recommend to people to use it but given they have nothing from now on but are also not able to switch everything was better than nothing. So yes, your comment was rather motivating to me :-( Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Jan 04, 2011 at 10:15:03PM +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

Am 04.01.2011 22:02, schrieb Greg KH:

...

On Tue, Jan 04, 2011 at 09:50:41PM +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

...

I'm far away from being a kernel hacker unfortunately. I might just end up being the one trying to merge security patches I find somewhere into that kernel to keep 11.1 running. The changes I would need right now are some to the spec file templates as I cannot rely on SUSE's internal PDB to fix package descriptions up. So I'm planning to go through the templates and fill in useful text.

Ick, no, don't do that, just use obs and the scripts we have for generating packages directly from the kernel git tree, and you will not need to edit any of those template files at all.

I use OBS and if you check your kernel:SLE11_BRANCH project you will find that your kernel packages there have exactly that issue. All have summary "Dummy summary" and description "Dummy description".

Odd, when I ran 'scripts/tar_up.sh' last time, I thought the correct descriptions got generated. Did you try that?

...

And if you all don't have someone to maintain your kernel, that actually knows how to handle kernel security issues, that might be a good thing to fix before thinking that Evergreen is going to be a viable platform that someone can actually trust.

Yes, and I never claimed something else. And given the responses to my initiative up to now I'm inclined to stop my efforts asap. It's not fun (and not possible) to drive this a one man show so apparently noone out there needs it. I also don't need it just for my private little dedicated server. I can and should just use CentOS. I was thinking there is a gap in our offers and we would find people to join in. That wasn't the case yet and I still wanted to start the experiment with 11.1 and would never recommend to people to use it but given they have nothing from now on but are also not able to switch everything was better than nothing. So yes, your comment was rather motivating to me :-(

If you are the only developer wanting to work on Evergreen, then perhaps it will not be able to get very far. Even CentOS has major resource issues (i.e. no developers to work on it.) I think there is a need for something like Evergreen, but without the people to do the actual work, like any opensource project, it's not going to get far. Sorry about that, best of luck, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+help@opensuse.org

Am 04.01.2011 22:25, schrieb Greg KH:

On Tue, Jan 04, 2011 at 10:15:03PM +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

...

Am 04.01.2011 22:02, schrieb Greg KH:

...

On Tue, Jan 04, 2011 at 09:50:41PM +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

...

I'm far away from being a kernel hacker unfortunately. I might just end up being the one trying to merge security patches I find somewhere into that kernel to keep 11.1 running. The changes I would need right now are some to the spec file templates as I cannot rely on SUSE's internal PDB to fix package descriptions up. So I'm planning to go through the templates and fill in useful text.

Ick, no, don't do that, just use obs and the scripts we have for generating packages directly from the kernel git tree, and you will not need to edit any of those template files at all.

I use OBS and if you check your kernel:SLE11_BRANCH project you will find that your kernel packages there have exactly that issue. All have summary "Dummy summary" and description "Dummy description".

Odd, when I ran 'scripts/tar_up.sh' last time, I thought the correct descriptions got generated. Did you try that?

Yes, on the SLE11_BRANCH the descriptions in the spec templates are just dummy descriptions. They are not replaced by anything in the repo or OBS. For 11.1 and SLE11 they are replaced by SUSE's internal system using data from the PDB. This was verified by Marcus already and fits what I knew from my SUSE history. On later branches the correct descriptions are already in the spec templates as PDB is not used anymore on distributions being built in OBS. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+help@opensuse.org

Hi Greg, Am 04.01.2011 22:57, schrieb Greg Freemyer:

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Wolfgang Rosenauer

...

Yes, and I never claimed something else. And given the responses to my initiative up to now I'm inclined to stop my efforts asap. It's not fun (and not possible) to drive this a one man show so apparently noone out there needs it. I also don't need it just for my private little dedicated server. I can and should just use CentOS. I was thinking there is a gap in our offers and we would find people to join in. That wasn't the case yet and I still wanted to start the experiment with 11.1 and would never recommend to people to use it but given they have nothing from now on but are also not able to switch everything was better than nothing. So yes, your comment was rather motivating to me :-(

Wolfgang,

Remember I volunteered to be part of the Evergreen kernel team if you moved to the 2.6.32 kernel.

Yes, thanks for that. But here it starts to get interesting already. Could we move to 2.6.32 without breaking systems? At least one guy mentioned that only 2.6.27 works for him. (I'm probably affected too since my remaining 11.1 system is Xen based and a pretty old Xen host. I haven't checked why exactly but I know 11.2 is not running on that host). That's why there was no initiative to update to 2.6.32 yet.

OTOH, I have not seen any volunteers (except yourself) for userspace packages, so you do have to question the viability of moving forward.

I'll give it a few more weeks and see what happens. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 5:40 PM, Jeff Mahoney wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 01/04/2011 05:29 PM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

...

Hi Greg,

Am 04.01.2011 22:57, schrieb Greg Freemyer:

...

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Wolfgang Rosenauer

...

Yes, and I never claimed something else. And given the responses to my initiative up to now I'm inclined to stop my efforts asap. It's not fun (and not possible) to drive this a one man show so apparently noone out there needs it. I also don't need it just for my private little dedicated server. I can and should just use CentOS. I was thinking there is a gap in our offers and we would find people to join in. That wasn't the case yet and I still wanted to start the experiment with 11.1 and would never recommend to people to use it but given they have nothing from now on but are also not able to switch everything was better than nothing. So yes, your comment was rather motivating to me :-(

Wolfgang,

Remember I volunteered to be part of the Evergreen kernel team if you moved to the 2.6.32 kernel.

Yes, thanks for that. But here it starts to get interesting already. Could we move to 2.6.32 without breaking systems? At least one guy mentioned that only 2.6.27 works for him. (I'm probably affected too since my remaining 11.1 system is Xen based and a pretty old Xen host. I haven't checked why exactly but I know 11.2 is not running on that host). That's why there was no initiative to update to 2.6.32 yet.

I certainly hope so. That's the kernel that SLE11 SP1 is based on and we put quite a lot of work into addressing problems before we released it.

- -Jeff

- -- Jeff Mahoney SUSE Labs

And I assume if we have issues using the SLE11 SP1 kernel for whatever reason, we could call on the resources of the Novell kernel team since it is the kernel they are formally supporting. I assume XEN would be one of the environments SLE11 SP1 already supports. In fact I expect the SLE11 SP1 kernel has better XEN support today than the 11.2 kernel as released 14 or 15 months ago. As to that one user, he had a specific piece of hardware if I recall correctly. I'm not sure that one user can drive the core Evergreen kernel choice. Especially as it appears that you currently have no one to provide LTS support for the older kernel. If and when you want me to try to build a SLE11 SP1 based kernel for Evergreen, let me know. (If its not a real consideration, don't feel the need to send me off on a wild goose chase.) Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 01/04/2011 05:54 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 5:40 PM, Jeff Mahoney wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 01/04/2011 05:29 PM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

...

Hi Greg,

Am 04.01.2011 22:57, schrieb Greg Freemyer:

...

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Wolfgang Rosenauer

...

Yes, and I never claimed something else. And given the responses to my initiative up to now I'm inclined to stop my efforts asap. It's not fun (and not possible) to drive this a one man show so apparently noone out there needs it. I also don't need it just for my private little dedicated server. I can and should just use CentOS. I was thinking there is a gap in our offers and we would find people to join in. That wasn't the case yet and I still wanted to start the experiment with 11.1 and would never recommend to people to use it but given they have nothing from now on but are also not able to switch everything was better than nothing. So yes, your comment was rather motivating to me :-(

Wolfgang,

Remember I volunteered to be part of the Evergreen kernel team if you moved to the 2.6.32 kernel.

Yes, thanks for that. But here it starts to get interesting already. Could we move to 2.6.32 without breaking systems? At least one guy mentioned that only 2.6.27 works for him. (I'm probably affected too since my remaining 11.1 system is Xen based and a pretty old Xen host. I haven't checked why exactly but I know 11.2 is not running on that host). That's why there was no initiative to update to 2.6.32 yet.

I certainly hope so. That's the kernel that SLE11 SP1 is based on and we put quite a lot of work into addressing problems before we released it.

And I assume if we have issues using the SLE11 SP1 kernel for whatever reason, we could call on the resources of the Novell kernel team since it is the kernel they are formally supporting.

I wouldn't say "call on the resources," but the community maintenance load would certainly be lessened in the same way it always is when openSUSE uses a SLE kernel as a release.

I assume XEN would be one of the environments SLE11 SP1 already supports. In fact I expect the SLE11 SP1 kernel has better XEN support today than the 11.2 kernel as released 14 or 15 months ago.

As to that one user, he had a specific piece of hardware if I recall correctly. I'm not sure that one user can drive the core Evergreen kernel choice. Especially as it appears that you currently have no one to provide LTS support for the older kernel.

If and when you want me to try to build a SLE11 SP1 based kernel for Evergreen, let me know. (If its not a real consideration, don't feel the need to send me off on a wild goose chase.)

No, all that really needs to happen for that is for a Kernel:SLE11SP1 project to be created. I'm actually surprised that it doesn't exist already. Michal, could you take care of that when you get a moment? Thanks! - -Jeff - -- Jeff Mahoney SUSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk0jsV8ACgkQLPWxlyuTD7JDeQCgpTYg3H/cZt+kZKbEem+Tzm2P JT0An19YPuQtz8R0jXRaQNG2zSg/dyfc =Md+9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+help@opensuse.org

Am 04.01.2011 22:57, schrieb Greg Freemyer:

Remember I volunteered to be part of the Evergreen kernel team if you moved to the 2.6.32 kernel.

Greg, do you know what else (if so) needs to be updated when moving to this kernel? Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 05 January 2011, 08:26:45 Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

Am 04.01.2011 22:57, schrieb Greg Freemyer:

...

Remember I volunteered to be part of the Evergreen kernel team if you moved to the 2.6.32 kernel.

Greg, do you know what else (if so) needs to be updated when moving to this kernel?

I'm not Greg, but in my case for 2.6.31, the usual offenders were (IIRC): NetworkManager, WLAN, bluetooth, ... Unfortunately, on my main workstation, where I'm locked into 11.1 because of customer (support) needs, 2.6.31 is the last working kernel - all attempts to get beyond that failed so far: the problem is that my bog standard PS2 keyboard (Cherry G80-3000) will stop responding at a random point until the system is rebooted. It's probably due to races in the input system of the kernel and X, that got fixed on later releases, but who knows. What I know is, that it never happened with .31, but with any of .32, .33, .34. Asking for advice, how to debug this here and on LKML got ignored. Needless to say, that I'm dependent from this system to get real work done. OTHO, I have a server running 11.1 and 2.6.36 with no adverse effects (but I do not use any dangerous parts from above, nor XEN, but an updated KVM occasionally). I agree with you, that there's a big need for LTS versions of openSUSE, but all attempts failed because it misses a sustainable business model. While there are many potential users of such a product, there are far to few maintainers (that will mostly just have the "benefit" of whining users, if something broke..). That's not overly attractive. If you really start Evergreen, let me know, I will try to support it then. Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 05 January 2011, 18:26:19 Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:

...

On Wednesday 05 January 2011, 08:26:45 Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

...

Am 04.01.2011 22:57, schrieb Greg Freemyer:

...

Remember I volunteered to be part of the Evergreen kernel team if you moved to the 2.6.32 kernel.

Greg, do you know what else (if so) needs to be updated when moving to this kernel?

I'm not Greg, but in my case for 2.6.31, the usual offenders were (IIRC): NetworkManager, WLAN, bluetooth, ...

Sounds like the usual suspects. I don't have any specific knowledge of 11.1 issues with a 2.6.32 kernel.

I see openSUSE:Evergreen:11.1:Test already has a 2.6.32 kernel. Was that branched from Kernel:SLE11-SP1?

If so, I can try to setup a 11.1 test machine today and at least give the kernel a basic boot test with real hardware.

...

Unfortunately, on my main workstation, where I'm locked into 11.1 because of customer (support) needs, 2.6.31 is the last working kernel - all attempts to get beyond that failed so far: the problem is that my bog standard PS2 keyboard (Cherry G80-3000) will stop responding at a random point until the system is rebooted. It's probably due to races in the input system of the kernel and X, that got fixed on later releases, but who knows. What I know is, that it never happened with .31, but with any of .32, .33, .34. Asking for advice, how to debug this here and on LKML got ignored. Needless to say, that I'm dependent from this system to get real work done.

Once the Kernel:SLE11-SP1 kernel is shown to basically work with opensuse 11.1, do you have the ability to test it on that platform? That is a LTS kernel that suse, redhat, etc. are putting fixes into so it should be more stable than 2.6.31. Especially if your 2.6.32 testing was some time ago.

I tend to build my own kernel from github since I garnish them with a few must haves ;-), in other words: aufs, nvidia and VMware WS drivers, all that evil stuff, you name it.. The good news are: I'm mostly prepared already (I've based my .32 kernel on origin/SLE11-SP1), with the last build at end of October. http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/frispete:/kernel-2.6.32/open... I will give it another go. One caveat, this won't happen over the weekend, as I'm behind the schedule in an important project already. Proably at the end of January. If it proves to be stable on my main system, I might throw it into my local diskless test setup, and if that succeeds, there are another 40 diskless systems waiting with hardware spanning from 2004 until about three month ago, that I can test on. If those broke, my life is in danger, though.. (But don't worry, I use safety belts, of course ;-)) Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

Am 05.01.2011 18:26, schrieb Greg Freemyer:

...

Sounds like the usual suspects.  I don't have any specific knowledge of 11.1 issues with a 2.6.32 kernel.

I see openSUSE:Evergreen:11.1:Test already has a 2.6.32 kernel.  Was that branched from Kernel:SLE11-SP1?

That was created directly from the git repo. And it's just for testing at the moment. Those repos are not announced yet so hopefully people don't update from there ;-) I'm still undecided if to switch to .32 now or keep .27 until it's really needed to update. I could think about an optional update though which would help in broader testing.

Wolfgang

Okay, I've branched Kernel:SLE11-SP1 to my home evergreen sub-project and added the openSUSE 11.1 repo. home:gregfreemyer:Evergreen-11.1 The kernels all built without error. Anyone can test them, but I'll try to do a 11.1 test install and upgrade to that kernel in the next few days. Greg F -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 01/14/2011 04:04 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 4:21 AM, Michal Marek wrote:

...

On 5.1.2011 00:46, Jeff Mahoney wrote:

...

No, all that really needs to happen for that is for a Kernel:SLE11SP1 project to be created. I'm actually surprised that it doesn't exist already.

Indeed it was missing, what a shame. It is there now.

Michal

Michal,

Thanks for that new project.

From what I see, the new repo / project is tracking every update of the SLE11SP1 kernel. ie. It sees almost daily updates.

https://build.opensuse.org/package/source_history?package=kernel-source&project=Kernel%3ASLE11-SP1

Was that intentional. I would also like to have a project that only tracks the released kernel.

Yes, these projects are updated regularly based on git repo commits. AFAIK tracking SLE update releases isn't possible in OBS and that's not something we're likely to add. The SLE update process happens in the internal build service. - -Jeff - -- Jeff Mahoney SUSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk0wvl0ACgkQLPWxlyuTD7I+ewCeJIx4CFbN2FBWOEnnUvcOE7F0 r18AnRmK+uwRzmT/RNDg67GN89YO+A05 =71b0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+help@opensuse.org