On Tuesday, September 06, 2011 08:38:54 AM Martin Schlander wrote:

Tirsdag den 6. september 2011 17:08:15 skrev Roger Luedecke:

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https://features.opensuse.org/312784

Mandriva has done this, as have I. I think there are many good reasons to replace Amarok with Clementine.

Mandriva also included Thunderbird and Shotwell in their default install ;-) ... Which probably makes sense for their target audience, but that doesn't mean openSUSE should do it.

I "vote" no.

Amarok is a "real" KDE app, it has mo' better localization and it has more features.

But at least for 12.1 Clementine will be in the distro, so people can easily install it without needing to add additional repos. That is certainly better, and I agree with keeping more upstream in most cases. But frankly, Amarok has a bad interface IMHO. Clementine has the bulk of Amarok features and a much more approachable interface. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 6:00 PM, phanisvara das wrote:

On Tue, 06 Sep 2011 21:25:43 +0530, Roger Luedecke wrote:

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But at least for 12.1 Clementine will be in the distro, so people can easily install it without needing to add additional repos.

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That is certainly better, and I agree with keeping more upstream in most cases. But frankly, Amarok has a bad interface IMHO. Clementine has the bulk of Amarok features and a much more approachable interface.

that sounds like a matter of personal opinion. i like amarok's interface much better, and it hasn't given me any trouble in a long while. it is 'heavy,' compared to clementine, but doesn't hog resources, unless it's busy scanning a huge collection, of course.

Agreed, I much prefer Amarok's interface as well. -Todd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

On 09/06/2011 08:19 AM, phanisvara das wrote:

probably a question of what one got used to. those who used amarok 1.4 a lot may experience some sort of 'culture shock,' since the interface changed a lot. others (like me) who didn't use the earlier version much, have less trouble. if that's true, having amarok as default and clementine as an option makes sense, since long time users are more likely to know about the alternative and can easier implement it.

Yeah thats true, Amarok <= 1.4 was great. Really the best music player for a long time. Then the new Amarok came out... just horrible UI. I switched to Clementine. I don't mind if Amarok is default, so long as I can find Clementine easily. Currently it's in packman. -johnm -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

John McInnes wrote:

On 09/06/2011 08:19 AM, phanisvara das wrote:

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probably a question of what one got used to. those who used amarok 1.4 a lot may experience some sort of 'culture shock,' since the interface changed a lot. others (like me) who didn't use the earlier version much, have less trouble. if that's true, having amarok as default and clementine as an option makes sense, since long time users are more likely to know about the alternative and can easier implement it.

Yeah thats true, Amarok <= 1.4 was great. Really the best music player for a long time. Then the new Amarok came out... just horrible UI. I switched to Clementine.

The Amarok UI is just something to which I rapidly adapted. My bone to pick with the "new and improved" Amarok is every few updates, or so, it breaks. For version whores like me we will go along just fine for a while, but eventually (and fairly regularly I might add) some update installs a version which missed the QA cycle and has something wrong with it. I used to just use Clementine temporarily and return to Amarok when some subsequent update had it working properly once again. As time went by and I experienced this cycle more and more I just stayed with Clementine. It doesn't seem to have this 'every few updates has a broken one...', at least have not seen it do this yet.

I don't mind if Amarok is default, so long as I can find Clementine easily. Currently it's in packman.

That's kind of how I feel too. As long as I can switch my system to whatever I choose I'm happy. -Mike -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

On 09/06/2011 01:27 PM, Steven Sroka wrote:

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On 6 September 2011 16:12, Michael Powell wrote: John McInnes wrote:

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On 09/06/2011 08:19 AM, phanisvara das wrote:

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probably a question of what one got used to. those who used amarok 1.4 a lot may experience some sort of 'culture shock,' since the interface changed a lot. others (like me) who didn't use the earlier version much, have less trouble. if that's true, having amarok as default and clementine as an option makes sense, since long time users are more likely to know about the alternative and can easier implement it.

Yeah thats true, Amarok<= 1.4 was great. Really the best music player for a long time. Then the new Amarok came out... just horrible UI. I switched to Clementine. The Amarok UI is just something to which I rapidly adapted. My bone to pick with the "new and improved" Amarok is every few updates, or so, it breaks. For version whores like me we will go along just fine for a while, but eventually (and fairly regularly I might add) some update installs a version which missed the QA cycle and has something wrong with it.

I used to just use Clementine temporarily and return to Amarok when some subsequent update had it working properly once again. As time went by and I experienced this cycle more and more I just stayed with Clementine. It doesn't seem to have this 'every few updates has a broken one...', at least have not seen it do this yet.

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I don't mind if Amarok is default, so long as I can find Clementine easily. Currently it's in packman.

That's kind of how I feel too. As long as I can switch my system to whatever I choose I'm happy. But are the majority of users happy with Amarok? I liked Amarok (except for playing CD's) until I tried Clementine - Christmas came early that day :)

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-Mike

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Precisely my point. I think most users just trying linux or KDE will be more comfortable with Clementine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Am 06.09.2011 22:27, schrieb Steven Sroka:

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On 6 September 2011 16:12, Michael Powell wrote:

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John McInnes wrote:

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On 09/06/2011 08:19 AM, phanisvara das wrote:

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> > > probably a question of what one got used to. those who used amarok 1.4 > a lot may experience some sort of 'culture shock,' since the interface > changed a lot. others (like me) who didn't use the earlier version > much, have less trouble. if that's true, having amarok as default and > clementine as an option makes sense, since long time users are more > likely to know about the alternative and can easier implement it. >

Yeah thats true, Amarok<= 1.4 was great. Really the best music player for a long time. Then the new Amarok came out... just horrible UI. I switched to Clementine.

The Amarok UI is just something to which I rapidly adapted. My bone to pick with the "new and improved" Amarok is every few updates, or so, it breaks. For version whores like me we will go along just fine for a while, but eventually (and fairly regularly I might add) some update installs a version which missed the QA cycle and has something wrong with it.

I used to just use Clementine temporarily and return to Amarok when some subsequent update had it working properly once again. As time went by and I experienced this cycle more and more I just stayed with Clementine. It doesn't seem to have this 'every few updates has a broken one...', at least have not seen it do this yet.

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I don't mind if Amarok is default, so long as I can find Clementine easily. Currently it's in packman.

That's kind of how I feel too. As long as I can switch my system to whatever I choose I'm happy. But are the majority of users happy with Amarok? I liked Amarok (except for playing CD's) until I tried Clementine - Christmas came early that day:)

Then maybe a poll is the best thing to do. I could talk to the news team if they would support a poll. We might could that include in news.o.o thanks, -- -o) Kim Leyendecker /\\ openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE _\_v http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Am 07.09.2011 13:27, schrieb Adrian Schröter:

Am Mittwoch, 7. September 2011, 13:30:14 schrieb Kim Leyendecker:

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Am 06.09.2011 22:27, schrieb Steven Sroka:

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On 6 September 2011 16:12, Michael Powell wrote:

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John McInnes wrote:

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> On 09/06/2011 08:19 AM, phanisvara das wrote: >>> probably a question of what one got used to. those who used amarok >>> 1.4 >>> a lot may experience some sort of 'culture shock,' since the >>> interface >>> changed a lot. others (like me) who didn't use the earlier version >>> much, have less trouble. if that's true, having amarok as default >>> and >>> clementine as an option makes sense, since long time users are >>> more >>> likely to know about the alternative and can easier implement it. > > Yeah thats true, Amarok<= 1.4 was great. Really the best music > player > for a long time. Then the new Amarok came out... just horrible UI. I > switched to Clementine.

The Amarok UI is just something to which I rapidly adapted. My bone to pick with the "new and improved" Amarok is every few updates, or so, it breaks. For version whores like me we will go along just fine for a while, but eventually (and fairly regularly I might add) some update installs a version which missed the QA cycle and has something wrong with it.

I used to just use Clementine temporarily and return to Amarok when some subsequent update had it working properly once again. As time went by and I experienced this cycle more and more I just stayed with Clementine. It doesn't seem to have this 'every few updates has a broken one...', at least have not seen it do this yet.

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> I don't mind if Amarok is default, so long as I can find Clementine > easily. Currently it's in packman.

That's kind of how I feel too. As long as I can switch my system to whatever I choose I'm happy.

But are the majority of users happy with Amarok? I liked Amarok (except for playing CD's) until I tried Clementine - Christmas came early that day:)

Then maybe a poll is the best thing to do. I could talk to the news team if they would support a poll. We might could that include in news.o.o

Seriously, a poll is not a valid way to find a good default setup.

When you want to spend effort then define which tasks should be able to do with the music player and test this in real life afterwards.

Well, at first the music player should be able to play all common formats like MP3 or OGG The UI should be intuitive and easy to use (easy doesn´t mean few features, it does mean, that even my mother, who isn´t a savvy person can use it *without* learning it for hours and can fix small configuration problem by herself.) My favorite music player is still iTunes. Although it´s (at least under Windows) really big and fat, I like the way it works. Well, maybe because it´s the perfect product to work together with your iPod. I love having a statistic about which songs I heard and how often (well, I´m a statistic freak, I guess) so, iTunes is my first choice. Yes, *mine* I guess, that the vast majority prefers using something more lightweight. And that´s an important point to me. I listened to music when I was working with my 4GB RAM notebook. I had have three programs open: Amarok for music, Firefox for internet and VirtualBox for a fresh installation of openSUSE factory. The played music wasn´t that good quality and often lagged a lot. So, I would say, it´s important that the player is lightweight. conclusion: * should play common formats * should have an intuitive UI * should be lightweight and work well even with some old hardware Do you agree? Something to add?

The poll would only represent individual opinions of one kind of people, but it would not represent the audience we have in mind with our distribution.

Why? isn´t the audience our community? Or do you mean that not everyone is regarding such a poll, and that the minority is following it? -- -o) Kim Leyendecker /\\ openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE _\_v http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Then maybe a poll is the best thing to do.

Did you even read the first mail? A poll already exists. So far it has -1 votes in favor of it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday, September 07, 2011 05:25:11 AM Markus Slopianka wrote:

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Then maybe a poll is the best thing to do.

Did you even read the first mail? A poll already exists. So far it has -1 votes in favor of it. Its brand new... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

Am 07.09.2011 20:55, schrieb John McInnes:

On 09/07/2011 07:18 AM, Roger Luedecke wrote:

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On Wednesday, September 07, 2011 05:25:11 AM Markus Slopianka wrote:

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Then maybe a poll is the best thing to do. Did you even read the first mail? A poll already exists. So far it has -1 votes in favor of it. Its brand new...

So people know, poll is here: https://features.opensuse.org/312784

you haven´t read my answer, right? I thunk we all know *where* the poll is, even me :D So, vote! ;-) -- -o) Kim Leyendecker /\\ openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE _\_v http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 06 Sep 2011 21:25:43 +0530, Roger Luedecke wrote:

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But at least for 12.1 Clementine will be in the distro, so people can easily install it without needing to add additional repos.

That is certainly better, and I agree with keeping more upstream in most cases. But frankly, Amarok has a bad interface IMHO. Clementine has the bulk of Amarok features and a much more approachable interface.

that sounds like a matter of personal opinion. i like amarok's interface much better, and it hasn't given me any trouble in a long while. it is 'heavy,' compared to clementine, but doesn't hog resources, unless it's busy scanning a huge collection, of course. It still slogs down if you are playing a radio stream with it. I remember when I was first getting acquainted with Amarok... it took me a while just to

On Tuesday, September 06, 2011 09:00:04 AM phanisvara das wrote: figure out how to shuffle the playlist. Took me a day to figure out that odd round thing was for volume control. And on my small monitor Clementine is more suitable. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday, September 06, 2011 11:56:02 AM Markus Slopianka wrote:

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That is certainly better, and I agree with keeping more upstream in most cases. But frankly, Amarok has a bad interface IMHO.

Upstream KDE default is Juk, not Amarok. O, hmm. OK. I haven't taken a look at Juk in a while. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday, September 06, 2011 12:42:26 PM Markus Slopianka wrote:

On Dienstag 06 September 2011 21:16:12 Roger Luedecke wrote:

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On Tuesday, September 06, 2011 11:56:02 AM Markus Slopianka wrote:

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That is certainly better, and I agree with keeping more upstream in most cases. But frankly, Amarok has a bad interface IMHO.

Upstream KDE default is Juk, not Amarok.

O, hmm. OK. I haven't taken a look at Juk in a while.

It's workflow is similar to iTunes, so if Windows migrators are supposedly a main factor, neither Amarok nor Clementine make a good default. I don't know anybody who used Windows Media PLayer... except me. Most people do use iTunes on their WinPC. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 12:08 PM, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

Am 06.09.2011 17:38, schrieb Martin Schlander:

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Mandriva also included Thunderbird and Shotwell in their default install;-) ... Which probably makes sense for their target audience, but that doesn't mean openSUSE should do it.

Well, I would support such a decision. I prefer Thunderbird instead of KMail or Evolution.

Ditto, but not by much: - thunderbird: it works, it's fast, it's extensible, and it's been pretty reliable. But, it's OUTRAGEOUSLY memory hungry. Up to 2GB. For mail. Too much. Poor google/gmail integration. - evolution: next best. Folder syncing via IMAP/DIMAP kinda-sorta works: it's rather CPU intensive, and it takes a *long* time to sync (compared to thunderbird). Not very configurable. It supports google calendar natively. BIG PLUS. - kmail: Looks great, the "flow"/UI is very good and easy to use while still being very powerful. However, it just doesn't work. Since KDE 3.5 or so, I've not yet had a kmail/kmail2 that works with google mail and my mailboxes. It takes forever to sync, even after the initial sync. Loses mail. Crashy. The akonadi integration has been a disaster for me. Totally unusable[1]. No google/gmail calendar integration. With respect to Amarok/Clementine - I tried Clementine, expecting to be disappointed (as I was with Amarok). On the contrary! Clementine is fast and has a _very_ nice UI. Love it. [1] - the last time I checked was when 4.7.0 came out. Maybe 4.7.1 will be better? -- Jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

* Jon Nelson [09-06-11 13:18]:

On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 12:08 PM, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

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Am 06.09.2011 17:38, schrieb Martin Schlander:

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Mandriva also included Thunderbird and Shotwell in their default install;-) ... Which probably makes sense for their target audience, but that doesn't mean openSUSE should do it.

Well, I would support such a decision. I prefer Thunderbird instead of KMail or Evolution.

Ditto, but not by much:

- thunderbird: it works, it's fast, it's extensible, and it's been pretty reliable. But, it's OUTRAGEOUSLY memory hungry. Up to 2GB. For mail. Too much. Poor google/gmail integration.

- evolution: next best. Folder syncing via IMAP/DIMAP kinda-sorta works: it's rather CPU intensive, and it takes a *long* time to sync (compared to thunderbird). Not very configurable. It supports google calendar natively. BIG PLUS.

- kmail: Looks great, the "flow"/UI is very good and easy to use while still being very powerful. However, it just doesn't work. Since KDE 3.5 or so, I've not yet had a kmail/kmail2 that works with google mail and my mailboxes. It takes forever to sync, even after the initial sync. Loses mail. Crashy. The akonadi integration has been a disaster for me. Totally unusable[1]. No google/gmail calendar integration.

Guess I should speak up for "mutt", a text email client, that is TEXT email client, that does it all with small memory footprint and all the _power_ of any of the *others*. A text email client for text email, which is what email *should* be. Have to place this above *all* others. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday, September 06, 2011 03:13:50 PM Yamaban wrote:

On Tue, 6 Sep 2011 22:54, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Jon Nelson [09-06-11 13:18]:

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On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 12:08 PM, Kim Leyendecker

wrote:

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Am 06.09.2011 17:38, schrieb Martin Schlander:

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Mandriva also included Thunderbird and Shotwell in their default install;-) ... Which probably makes sense for their target audience, but that doesn't mean openSUSE should do it.

Well, I would support such a decision. I prefer Thunderbird instead of KMail or Evolution.

Ditto, but not by much:

- thunderbird: it works, it's fast, it's extensible, and it's been pretty reliable. But, it's OUTRAGEOUSLY memory hungry. Up to 2GB. For mail. Too much. Poor google/gmail integration.

- evolution: next best. Folder syncing via IMAP/DIMAP kinda-sorta works: it's rather CPU intensive, and it takes a *long* time to sync (compared to thunderbird). Not very configurable. It supports google calendar natively. BIG PLUS.

- kmail: Looks great, the "flow"/UI is very good and easy to use while still being very powerful. However, it just doesn't work. Since KDE 3.5 or so, I've not yet had a kmail/kmail2 that works with google mail and my mailboxes. It takes forever to sync, even after the initial sync. Loses mail. Crashy. The akonadi integration has been a disaster for me. Totally unusable[1]. No google/gmail calendar integration.

Guess I should speak up for "mutt", a text email client, that is TEXT email client, that does it all with small memory footprint and all the _power_ of any of the *others*. A text email client for text email, which is what email *should* be. Have to place this above *all* others.

+1. GUI for when it's possible ncurses for ssh and other constraints.

- Thunderbird with Threading - Addon (cant remember name atm) for the Desktop at home mostly imap thus no kmail since after KDE 3.5.x - Alpine (Pine successor) for the netbook or via ssh from a customer, also imap. (Can't get warm with mutt's interface, but that's personal)

My hope for KMail is a working and stable, release, usable (not slow) imap and fixed backend. May it be akonadi, may it be its successor.

Fast UI, no hidden hogs in the backend (hello nepomuk!), reliable imap via network (access to local imap server works fine).

Check for the UI, but the rest? Is there hope for X-mas presents from kdepim?

On Thunderbird, If one doesn't need the search that much, switch of the indexing and delete index. Sames oodles / tons of memory.

Cheers, Yamaban.

PS: I really liked KMail, right up before KDE 4. Then I had to switch, simply to get my work done. I'd like to switch back, but... not as it is. Kmail definately needs some work on IMAP. Other than that, I love KMail. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday, September 07, 2011 04:40:39 AM Kim Leyendecker wrote:

Am 06.09.2011 22:54, schrieb Patrick Shanahan:

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Guess I should speak up for "mutt", a text email client, that is TEXT email client, that does it all with small memory footprint and all the _power_ of any of the*others*. A text email client for text email, which is what email*should* be. Have to place this above*all* others.

what about alpine? it´s kinda like mutt. *But*, are you discover something? We´re talking about emailreaders with a *GUI*. The majority of users is using such clients because there more comfortable then console based ones. I prefer thunderbird because it´s easy to use and I like it (and of course because of the extensions). I made a few tests with alpine, but I´m too used to thunderbird.

The question is, does a command line client makes sense as default? I would say no. The people who wants a command line based one, *know* how to get one. IMHO, the default installation should be as easy as they can.

I don´t know much about KMail, because I´m happy with thunderbird so never tested it really. I tested Evolution twice and I never get my emails. Either I´m just too stupid to configurate it the RightWay(tm) or it´s just too stupid to execute my configuration well. Anyway, Why were talking about emailclients? KMail for KDE makes sense, Evolution for GNOME also. If Mozilla would release there own desktop, Thunderbird would be first choice. For the others:

sudo zypper install MozillaThunderbird sudo zypper install alpine sudo zypper install mutt (if I´m right.)

it´s so easy. Agreed. Glad you made the point. I was reluctant to respond since I wasn't sure if we were being trolled or not. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org