Re: [opensuse-kde] Bug strategy
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011, 00:12:23 schrieb Sven Burmeister:
Am Donnerstag, 17. Februar 2011, 22:44:09 schrieb Karsten König:
Sorry, 11.4's roadmap was known for half a year now.
Fair enough, we had our chance.
Did we? Was there ever a oS release with less Novell staff dedicated to KDE?
We had our chance to voice concerns about the timing.
If we find bugs we deem important on bko and can trigger them on opensuse will you accept such patches or not? We will document the upstream bugreport and clarify that we could reproduce on opensuse so I hope this fits your requirement of a well documentated fix.
This wastes a lot of time one could put into making sure that the KR46 repo is polished and provides tested KDE 4.6.1 packages for the 11.4 release.
Given that resources are limited I think that one should just look at the final result and changing resources does also imply that "that's how it always was" changes as well.
So if we stick to the current scheme we do:
- find out whether bugs are opensuse-specific or not - search for bugs and report them at bko - wait for patches and report those back to bnc - backport them - test them regarding regressions (who of those active on IRC uses STABLE?) - document/beg for including the fixes into 11.4
I'd rather see us trying to find out about important crash fixes from upstream, maybe use some clever bko query so at least fix crashers. What's not fixed upstream is hard to fix in 1 week on our resources alone anyways, so even if it is a crashreport on bnc. I hope to find some time on sunday to dig abit on bko and backport stuff that looks important.
after 11.4 this continues: - bugs that are fixed in KDE 4.6.x have to be found at bko - report at bnc, document, beg for official update - of course only major bugs will get those updates, so most smaller fixes will never see 11.4 -> if you want fixes, use KR46. - in fact, not having branch updates makes testing harder since you cannot tell upstream that a fix did not work. Simply because it might be that it was not included or the backport failed.
I don't know about others, but unless a report turns up on bnc or I am affected myself I am not really willing to monitor bko for bugfixes after the release. I only suggest doing this for one week (until 11.4rc2 tag) and then fix what people report afterwards on bnc.
Result: 11.4 is outdated the day it gets released but continues to suck-up time for backports. And backports are always only consuming downstream resources whereas regressions are worked on upstream as well.
If one puts the same resources into polishing KR46 which is not restricted by some roadmap which does not care about KDE releases, we would get the following:
- find out whether bugs are opensuse-specific or not - search for bugs and report them at bko + only report opensuse-specific bugs back to bnc + no backporting + test them (who of those active on IRC uses KDF or KR46?)
after the 11.4 release this continues: + bugs that are fixed in KDE 4.6.x do not have to be backported + all upstream fixes will be included - regressions may appear and have to be reported and fixed which is done upstream or downstream.
Result: more fixes, less double-reporting, less double-documenting, less backporting, less time to spend on begging for updates, more time to spend on opensuse-specific bugs, more time to spend on knm etc., easier testing and reporting against upstream, MAYBE some regressions on which one would have to see whether they are more severe than the bugs that will remain in 11.4 because of not updating to KDE 4.6.1, better tumbleweed packages.
So IMHO the only thing that makes sense is to get all KDE 4.6.1 fixes plus _maybe_ some regressions and then spend resources on fixing those regressions rather than only get a minimum of fixes and waste time on work that was already done.
I support this for the post 11.4 release, polish 4.6.1 in KR46, submit it to KDS and ask people to help regression testing and push it into the opensuse update queue later. But this won't happen if we can't provide the opensuse:update watchers with a good reason and a solidly tested repo. It also won't happen if they flat out deny it, well then I'll just switch back to KDF and leave 11.4 to the people who think this will be more solid then a factory repo.
I gave up reporting to bnc because Will is too busy and most fixes will not be allowed to get into the official updates anyway, so my time is better spent reporting and testing upstream, i.e. on KR46 after 11.4 got released.
Sven
Cheers, Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Fredag den 18. februar 2011 11:45:25 skrev Karsten König:
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011, 00:12:23 schrieb Sven Burmeister:
Am Donnerstag, 17. Februar 2011, 22:44:09 schrieb Karsten König:
Sorry, 11.4's roadmap was known for half a year now.
Fair enough, we had our chance.
Did we? Was there ever a oS release with less Novell staff dedicated to KDE?
We had our chance to voice concerns about the timing.
11.4 is a special case, mainly because of: * llunak leaving and work permit issues for his replacement * upstream kde git migration complicating the branch diffs short term Besides I'm not sure the timing is actually bad for 11.4. For 11.3 we shipped 4.4.4 - theoretically it should have been über-polished, cuz we had almost 6 months from 4.4.0 release to polish and clean it for 11.3 - but in reality most people in the openSUSE KDE-community didn't give a crap about 4.4 at that point and had already moved on to newer and buggier things. For 11.4, at least most people in the openSUSE KDE community are actually interested in 4.6.0 - though that will only last for about two more weeks. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011, 11:57:37 schrieb Martin Schlander:
11.4 is a special case, mainly because of:
* llunak leaving and work permit issues for his replacement * upstream kde git migration complicating the branch diffs short term
*Will had to spend time on a zypper packagekit issue which was not really KDE's fault and reported months ago. Where was the release team to assign resources to this issue? *Will has to spend time on a glibc/ld.so (certainly not KDE) issue. s.a. So there are reasons to delay the release and even if not, at least not put-up hurdles to release an official update to get KDE 4.6.1 into 11.4. Or, even easier, forget about claiming that the KDE version released with 11.4 is the most stable for 11.4 and recommend to use KR46.
Besides I'm not sure the timing is actually bad for 11.4. For 11.3 we shipped 4.4.4 - theoretically it should have been über-polished, cuz we had almost 6 months from 4.4.0 release to polish and clean it for 11.3 - but in reality most people in the openSUSE KDE-community didn't give a crap about 4.4 at that point and had already moved on to newer and buggier things.
I think comparing KDE 4.4.no-matter-what-minor-release with 4.6 is not valid. And thing about KDE 4.4.4 was that it was buggier than the 4.5.0 release and thus people moved on. It's not like people move on because they want to punish themselves but because they are unhappy with the official release. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011 schrieb Sven Burmeister:
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011, 11:57:37 schrieb Martin Schlander:
11.4 is a special case, mainly because of:
* llunak leaving and work permit issues for his replacement * upstream kde git migration complicating the branch diffs short term
*Will had to spend time on a zypper packagekit issue which was not really KDE's fault and reported months ago. Where was the release team to assign resources to this issue?
Hmm, what resources? I'm not aware of anyone asking "hey, I'm a packagekit expert. Where can I help?". If I dropped a mail from you, sorry. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011, 16:42:21 schrieb Stephan Kulow:
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011 schrieb Sven Burmeister:
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011, 11:57:37 schrieb Martin Schlander:
11.4 is a special case, mainly because of:
* llunak leaving and work permit issues for his replacement * upstream kde git migration complicating the branch diffs short term
*Will had to spend time on a zypper packagekit issue which was not really KDE's fault and reported months ago. Where was the release team to assign resources to this issue?
Hmm, what resources? I'm not aware of anyone asking "hey, I'm a packagekit expert. Where can I help?". If I dropped a mail from you, sorry.
How can I put it nicely. If there are no resources/maintainer for getting zypper+packagekit ready in time then release/project-management failed. Actually the fact that the only one remaining in the KDE-team now also has to do work on the basesystem i.e. non-KDE-stuff already shows that it has done so. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011, 18:39:31 schrieb Sven Burmeister:
How can I put it nicely. If there are no resources/maintainer for getting zypper+packagekit ready in time then release/project-management failed. Actually the fact that the only one remaining in the KDE-team now also has to do work on the basesystem i.e. non-KDE-stuff already shows that it has done so.
So, now that you know who to blame - what are we going with it? I can't see how you're trying to help. Greetings, Stephan -- Sent from openSUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011, 19:41:34 schrieb Stephan Kulow:
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011, 18:39:31 schrieb Sven Burmeister:
How can I put it nicely. If there are no resources/maintainer for getting zypper+packagekit ready in time then release/project-management failed. Actually the fact that the only one remaining in the KDE-team now also has to do work on the basesystem i.e. non-KDE-stuff already shows that it has done so.
So, now that you know who to blame - what are we going with it? I can't see how you're trying to help.
Greetings, Stephan
Sven is spending alot of his free time on openSUSE/KDE so I think he somewhat earned the right to speak out if something turned out bad in his opinion. The opensuse kde team has taken a pretty bad hit with Lubos Lunaks and earlier Stephan Binners departure beeing down to a single full time developer, and it shows even though I think the community around opensuse kde grew nicely, also thanks to Svens dedicated work. Karsten PS: I know there is a new kde booster aboard and I am looking forward to his contributions. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011, 20:14:11 schrieb Karsten König:
Sven is spending alot of his free time on openSUSE/KDE so I think he somewhat earned the right to speak out if something turned out bad in his opinion. The opensuse kde team has taken a pretty bad hit with Lubos So do I, no?
Lunaks and earlier Stephan Binners departure beeing down to a single full time developer, and it shows even though I think the community around opensuse kde grew nicely, also thanks to Svens dedicated work. I never said Sven would not have the right to blame me for being a dumb ass, I just don't see how it helps us in this situation. We have to make sure 11.4 is a success - that does _not_ require every KDE bug in existance to be fixed, but if it requires zypp code to be fixed, then we have to use every available resource to fix it. And sometimes this means Will, sometimes it's me, sometimes it's Javier, sometimes it's the next best guy on opensuse-factory wanting the problem fixed.
PS: I know there is a new kde booster aboard and I am looking forward to his contributions.
There are only boosters - and some are better with kde than with gnome, but there are no "kde boosters". I quote from http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Boosters_team "The openSUSE Boosters ... follow their mantra: Grow community by enabling community". Enabling the community does not mean to work full time on KDE code. Greetings, Stephan -- Sent from openSUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 19. Februar 2011, 10:52:23 schrieb Stephan Kulow:
I never said Sven would not have the right to blame me for being a dumb ass, I just don't see how it helps us in this situation.
And here I see your problem. I never called you a dumb ass. So ask yourself where that link comes from, maybe because you know that things are not working as they should and defensive mechanism kick-in that make it easier to put-off that critique if it's only calling you dumb ass anyway. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011, 19:41:34 schrieb Stephan Kulow:
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011, 18:39:31 schrieb Sven Burmeister:
How can I put it nicely. If there are no resources/maintainer for getting zypper+packagekit ready in time then release/project-management failed. Actually the fact that the only one remaining in the KDE-team now also has to do work on the basesystem i.e. non-KDE-stuff already shows that it has done so.
So, now that you know who to blame - what are we going with it? I can't see how you're trying to help.
Should we not ask those that messed-up what they are going to do to straighten things out? If they cannot think of anything, here is something that demands only passiveness: do not put-up any hurdles for a KDE 4.6.1 update via the official channels – or to phrase it in a more active way, give green light for such an update if the KDE-community wants it. And one might ask them as well what they are going to improve for the next release. "We hired somebody new for KDE" can only be part of the solution since this does still not provide any maintainers for zypp/packagekit etc., i.e. non-KDE stuff. My proposal is already part of this thread. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011, 22:07:05 schrieb Sven Burmeister:
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011, 19:41:34 schrieb Stephan Kulow:
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011, 18:39:31 schrieb Sven Burmeister:
How can I put it nicely. If there are no resources/maintainer for getting zypper+packagekit ready in time then release/project-management failed. Actually the fact that the only one remaining in the KDE-team now also has to do work on the basesystem i.e. non-KDE-stuff already shows that it has done so.
So, now that you know who to blame - what are we going with it? I can't see how you're trying to help.
Should we not ask those that messed-up what they are going to do to straighten things out?
If they cannot think of anything, here is something that demands only passiveness: do not put-up any hurdles for a KDE 4.6.1 update via the official channels – or to phrase it in a more active way, give green light for such an update if the KDE-community wants it.
And one might ask them as well what they are going to improve for the next release.
"We hired somebody new for KDE" can only be part of the solution since this does still not provide any maintainers for zypp/packagekit etc., i.e. non-KDE stuff.
Oh boy. It happens all the time in open source projects that contributors leave the project. I don't think Novell ever said it will keep any limit - and if you're not satisfied with openSUSE having a 8 month release schedule (which it has for the 2nd time now - so it's time to throw it away), opensuse-project is the list to discuss this I would think. The release team's job is only to make sure we can release. That this 8 month schedule won't bring the perfect GNOME and KDE was clear when we decided to go there - and we here is openSUSE and not Novell. It shouldn't matter how many full time developers Novell has for a given topic if there are 30 part time developers aiming at the same goal. And the "official channels" for openSUSE updates are also openSUSE maintained, the maintenance team is always open for help. But someone has to do the updates. Greetings, Stephan -- Sent from openSUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 19. Februar 2011, 10:46:13 schrieb Stephan Kulow:
"We hired somebody new for KDE" can only be part of the solution since this does still not provide any maintainers for zypp/packagekit etc., i.e. non-KDE stuff.
Oh boy. It happens all the time in open source projects that contributors leave the project.
So? It's the management's job to notice and replace/assign resources. Will was not assigned but took the job because nobody else wanted to for weeks! That's not management, that's "wait and see". That's not management but excuses, sorry.
I don't think Novell ever said it will keep any limit - and if you're not satisfied with openSUSE having a 8 month release schedule (which it has for the 2nd time now - so it's time to throw it away), opensuse-project is the list to discuss this I would think. The release team's job is only to make sure we can release. That this 8 month schedule won't bring the perfect GNOME and KDE was clear when we decided to go there - and we here is openSUSE and not Novell.
This is not about the 8month schedule but about management failing to assign resources on time and assigning people that do not have to waste time on learning something they are not familiar with at the cost of loosing time for their main project. And as I stated already, I propose to not care anymore about the KDE version shipped with a oS release but just see it as a first KDE release for that distro version and officially recommend to add a KRx repo to get a stable KDE.
It shouldn't matter how many full time developers Novell has for a given topic if there are 30 part time developers aiming at the same goal.
I think it's called focus. But maybe the perfect job-description is more vague like "do everything needed, even if you have to waste time on it because your main competence is in some other area".
And the "official channels" for openSUSE updates are also openSUSE maintained, the maintenance team is always open for help. But someone has to do the updates.
Fair enough. KDE 4.6.1 packages will be available and submitted as official updates, let's see how open those people really are. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag, 18. Februar 2011, 11:45:25 schrieb Karsten König:
I support this for the post 11.4 release, polish 4.6.1 in KR46, submit it to KDS and ask people to help regression testing and push it into the opensuse update queue later.
Since KDS, KDF and KR46 would have the same KDE packages on the day of the KDE 4.6.1 release there would be enough testers.
But this won't happen if we can't provide the opensuse:update watchers with a good reason and a solidly tested repo.
Why not? Wasn't there something about community-driven updates? If KDF with x bugs unfixed due to the lack of a full brnach update is considered releasable, how can one argue that it will be less releasable after four weeks of further fixes and testing? The sooner the branch update happens, the sooner potential regressions are found and the less work is wasted on backporting and hunting fixes in bko.
It also won't happen if they flat out deny it, well then I'll just switch back to KDF and leave 11.4 to the people who think this will be more solid then a factory repo.
…or KR46. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
participants (4)
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Karsten König -
Martin Schlander -
Stephan Kulow -
Sven Burmeister