* Roger Penn <poohbear@rogweb.com> [07-27-04 21:22]:

Thanks Richard, and Verner too. I had to use lppasswd to create a root user! Imagine that!

surely

Unfortunately, it's these kinds of things that are keeping Linux from gaining dominance. In order just to get your out-of-the-box distro to perform the most basic of functions correctly, you have to subscribe to mailing lists, news groups, and scour the internet and spend huge amounts of time configuring things that should have been done in the first place, But at least this one was an easy fix.

Would have been even easier, had you read the instructions during install. The information you so desperately gleaned from the news groups and mailing lists was right there in front of you. Guess your "ranting" is totally uncalled for. have a good day. No apology necessary or expected. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos

*** Reply to message from Patrick Shanahan <wideglide@myrealbox.com> on Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:34:37 -0500*** Well, to begin w/ I'm a bit late getting to this discussion... but IIRC there isn't any easy way , that I can think of to bypass the creation of the root user.. you are asked for a password for this user and then to confirm it, you are also told it is important NOT to forget what you put in as a root password, as root is the controling user.. no root user, no other users , since one must , at least have root access to create users... As for it making folks run screaming from Linux because of these oddities (?!) I think that is not happening as often as you may think. In the first place newbies are terrified of making a "stupid" mistake and havine all the teen aged Linux masters jump all over them and embarrass them for all time.. So they tend to go slowly and carefully thru the setup.. Where they get hooked is in using root as their full tiime user and doing something they *think* they understand, but w/o the benefit of a handy teen about and it's not something that is covered in the instal instructions, so an error is made , because the root user is allowed to make stupid moves ( not sure why THAT isn't changed but still, say removing , recursively everything from / ... This isn't accompanied by lots and lots of "are you sure?. Areyou Really really sure? Have you considered the danger to your system and your data, as well as your users data if you do this??? " if it's root that gives this command,... whoops! Better hope there are good backups that are recent, like at least close of business yesterday. The biggest problems we are facing now seem to be to convince people to use root , or some other priviledged group, to get set up, but once they have their home directory working, programs needed or desired ( games!! installed and setup so they can be used by our clueless newbies) They settle down very quickly, and go about doing work... web surfing, booking airline tickets to Tanganika and printing them on nearlly all current models of printers , at least they seem to work w/ cups.., They do email, check on the kiddies grrades at school, order in dinner, or go to one of the new ediet sites ( May the Gods protects us all from those!) and have their menus and shopping lists done for each day.. one bright market no doubt is going to arrange for their patrons to simply come buy on their way home and a prepared meal will be ready for them to take home and spread out on the dinner table.. In other words It doesnt' really take acres of time and hand holding to get someone who has been using any modern OS , up and running in a reletively short time, and so long as you don't try to teach them the theory behind everything , and why computers work as they do.. ( like who cares, where's my email, and when is dinner!!?!) It is tougher for some of us to do some of the simplest things than it is for newbies I think, because we all start from the idea that we *should* know how to do everything and they why behind it as well... and when , as often happens, some bit of stuff gets changed, like from the old print mode to cups, suddenly there is panic all over the mailing lists and we are doomed !! It *might* be harder on someone coming from say 6.5 or whatever it was, as teh changes from that, thru the sevens and the eights, were really massive, and basic things got moved about... now, presumably, it wont be long til any linux distro user could pick up another distro, and at least they would know where to look to hand edit all those files that used to have to be hand edited.. and which some of us still prefer to , at least keep a close eye on what the system is telling those files they need to contain... Imagine that, unified file sytems... at that point, it becomes a matter of habit, ease or enjoyment to run the thing, at home or at work.. There will always be administrative stuff that has to be watched or set up in the begining .. we will probably have to learn teh hard way to try to stay a step or two ahead of the little skriptikins looking to make a name for themselves about getting into a Linux network and how it wasn't so tough.. But we all know how to setup Mum and Dad's system so they don't have to worry too much ( especially if you don't give them the root password, at least unless they really MUST have it to do something) And because they are family, you keep an eye out for any sort of danger they might unknowingly walk into.. And w/ teh ways to run updates etc from your box to update theres. well, they don't need to even do that until you are sure they are comfortable as their own "user". Even Windows is starting to have some tighter controls and locks on things. A bit too late an a lot more than a dollar short. But it's happening, so even that sort of differeing passwords for differing levels of control of the system, won't seem all that strange any more either. But frankly, that still seems to be trustiing that the person you are having an electronic *conversation* w/, by "chat" room, IRC, or even email, actually is who they say they are... IT has been the hardest thing for me to convince my family of.. the ones who live on the other side of the country, and who actually believe the nice person they are exchanging personal information w/ is not interested in cheating them. Frankly those folks spent too long in the mid West... And need some New York or LA *toughening up*. Quit worrying about how hard it is do do windows things in Linux and how much stuff you need to learn to make it run. ( Not all that much when it comes down to it) Let your family members know that you or better yet, one of the kids , will be happy to help out, and that when they get a message that says "talk to your system operator" , for the time being, that will be you. As they take their first steps, you can point them at these lists, at the freenode IRC network, which has a lot of general Linux help, and even a "Specific" SuSE ( or SUSE) channel, where they can usually get pretty good help from other users who have gone thru the same things.. And even on occassion, as w/ these email lists, Suse folk watch over things.. But that doesn't make Linux responsible for the problem, nor make it too difficult to learn the basics of safe computing, or even computing at all. Those things are the same , pretty much, for any OS.. nail it down as tight as posible w/o making it unuseable, and keep reminding the trusting souls our reletives seem to have become ( I don't recall this much benefit of the doubt, when it came to who wore the cashmere sweater last when we were all kids!! ;^) ) IF you wouldn't hand your credit cards , your SSI numbers , or any other banking or savings data over to soemone you just saw pull up to the curb, no matter how nice the car, how well spoken they might be or how well dressed.. Why on earth would you do that for someone you can't even see their face to try to make some sort of guess about their honesty???? IN other words, because it is important to get our families and friends off that "less secure" OS and preferably into a Linux system ( Xandros will act almost windowslike in it's introduction, it has a real 4 click install and doesn't assk your thinkg like what is your Is[ps Dns numbers) Not only for their sakes but for our own, so we don't have to be perpetually putting out forrest fires that come about because of all those holes in that other system.. And where Banks can INSIST you do your banking only w/ IE; and have the webmaster fix everything so no other browser will work, "for security" That Browser that will let anyone w/ a modicum of knowledge steale your banking info, CC numbers etc. Just do it.. they can learn to do their email and web browse w/ Konqui, w/ Mozilla, w/ Firefox ( the last two even have IE type "skins"!! ) and that is pretty much all they want to do , at least to start w/. As they become ready to take on more, you add it. Just like w/ your kids... or your significant other.. whom you wouldn't hurt for the world, so you bite your tongue very hard before you utter words like (l)user, or allusions to the much lower than normal IQ you never suspected them of having.. or indeed, anything at all that might get you a bed in the bath or on the couch in the Living room for your tactlesness. ;^) True you didn't waant to be the family systems engineer, but then there are likely a lot of people in all families doing jobs they never wanted, but they do them because someone has to, and after all we are family. And the larger Linux family will also try to help ... IT's the way we do things.. And even tho one might get a brusque remark from someone who may not have had the best day, or week , or month even ... generally there will be folks who will try to help.. -- j -- nemo me impune lacessit it's just an afterthought; okay ? : All true wisdom is found in taglines.