On Mon, 2012-04-16 at 11:27 -0700, Thomas Taylor wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 03:07:09 +0900 Malvern Star wrote:

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Hi All,

I've previously mentioned how I was concerned about the quality of openSUSE releases. Last Friday I got some written feedback from one of my most faithful Linux customers that she asked me to pass on to the openSUSE developers. The family have 4 computers, all running various versions of openSUSE, and they have been using it since openSUSE Pro 9.3. Here is what she sent:

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To the openSUSE developers In the past Linux has served us well, we were very pleased with the system, but in recent times there have been issues with OpenSuse that have been frustrating and we are strongly considering looking at another program.

>Our computer technician, Malvern, has encouraged us to persevere with the

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system in the hope the these issues will be resolved in the near future.

>We hope that you can recify the problems in a timely fashion.

I'm desperate for 12.2 to be a stable release, free of distro-breaking bugs. I'm doing my best to test and report, but my Linux users are going to start abandoning SUSE for Windows 7 if things continue the way they are.

Malvern. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Malvern; It would be helpful if you would elucidate on what the problems being encountered are. Is there a usage problem or the way things look or some other item(s)? How are the users and developers supposed to change something if they don't know what the problem is?

Tom

-- Tom Taylor - retired penguin openSUSE 11.4 x86_64 openSUSE 12.1 KDE 4.6.00, FF 4.0 KDE 4.7.2, FF 8.0 claws-mail 3.7.9 registered linux user 263467 linxt-At-comcast-DoT-net Don't put your users on KDE anymore. I stopped doing that a while ago, and when I did the complaints stopped.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2012-04-17 at 07:45 +0200, Will Stephenson wrote:

On Monday 16 Apr 2012 22:05:50 Roger Luedecke wrote:

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Don't put your users on KDE anymore. I stopped doing that a while ago, and when I did the complaints stopped.

Roger, you are very new in this community and you are stamping on the biggest fault lines in it by generalising matters of taste, on your blog and now here, on the KDE team list. Our members do not go and troll on the GNOME list.

When you rocked up to the project last year bursting with optimism and with a hatful ideas of how to save the world with openSUSE and KDE, I was concerned that you would become disillusioned because it's never possible to fix all the issues and realise great ideas overnight - the project is composed of too many disparate interests and directions.

The "great inspiration for X; disillusionment; go away for a bit, come back with great inspiration for Y, decrying the false hope of X" archetype is well known and X and Y are always pretty much interchangeable. If you are enthusiastic about GNOME now, good for you - go and do something positive with it without having to attack the work and the interests of your fellow community members.

Please have the common sense not to continue this thread (if at all) with a bunch of seemingly objective problems with KDE to justify your behaviour - all it is doing is laying out fuel for another silly flamewar.

Will

-- My intent here was not to flame. Indeed, when I started putting my clients on Gnome I was still using KDE. In general, as a matter of taste (configurability, advanced options, etc.) I prefer the KDE way. However, for my users who simply want their computers to work consistently (most of the time, they do thankfully understand that isn't always going to happen since nothing with a processor will work perfectly) I give them Gnome (not to mention it tends to have simpler applications which are less intimidating) since it is generally more stable, perhaps since its a bit less complex and probably because it is the one supported by big commercial players and thus gets more love.

As for my blog, I stated my opinions and experience. 12.1 with KDE was a festival of bugs. I do seem to have a strange karma of running into bugs that other people won't for some reason. In 12.2 I look forward to the many KDE fixes I have heard about, and hope to go back to using it. In the meantime, I have work to do with my machines and don't have the inclination to fight incessantly with my DE. I hope this clarifies my position. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 16 Apr 2012 11:27:09 Greg KH wrote:

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 03:07:09AM +0900, Malvern Star wrote:

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I've previously mentioned how I was concerned about the quality of openSUSE releases. Last Friday I got some written feedback from one of my most faithful Linux customers that she asked me to pass on to the openSUSE developers. The family have 4 computers, all running various versions of openSUSE, and they have been using it since openSUSE Pro 9.3. Here is what she sent:

And what specifically are these problems?

Is this list that Malv posted last year still current? http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2011-10/msg00122.html Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Board, Booster, KDE Developer SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 17 April 2012 11:20:50 Malvern Star wrote:

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And what specifically are these problems?

Is this list that Malv posted last year still current? http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2011-10/msg00122.html

Will

Will,

As per the posting you linked to:

Optical drives still won't function correctly in 12.2, Apper appears to now install programs requiring the user to accept a license, but I've never seen the updater icon automatically appear in the system tray - I've always had to invoke it manually. The launchers are again automatically recreated even if you remove them. I'm still in the process of re-testing the others.

About the launcher reappears issue that I think its an upstream known issue: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=278724 Max -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Malvern Star said the following on 04/16/2012 09:47 PM:

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To the openSUSE developers In the past Linux has served us well, we were very pleased with the system, but in recent times there have been issues with OpenSuse that have been frustrating and we are strongly considering looking at another program.

>Our computer technician, Malvern, has encouraged us to persevere with the

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system in the hope the these issues will be resolved in the near future.

>We hope that you can recify the problems in a timely fashion.

And what specifically are these problems?

I've filed a number of bug reports about them. Problems such as non-printing characters not displaying in LibreOffice, landscape documents printing out in portrait mode, users no longer having clickable icons on login, the calculator button on the keyboard not working...

All of these are little annoyances that add friction to the user experience.

Help me here; but surely some of these are configuration options? Yes, its an annoyance when the new install zaps old settings "Clickable icons on login" ? Do you mena the selection of the user from a list? Systemsetting -> (icon) login screen -> (tab) _U_sers -> [x] show list "landscape documents" ? The printer dialogue I see lets me rotate, centre, autofit etc. "non-printing characters" that's under menu -> view OR ctrl+F10 The problem with "ctrl+F10" is that it may be caught by KDE. So what *is* the problem? I see all of these and say "yes but..." But then I'm used to the idea of exploring settings and menu options. I don't want to call your users "lame" but I hate it when users show no initiative at all. Heck, OpenOffice/LibreOffice has had a more stable UI than MS-Office has had! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdkucf6wxU4 -- What goes around comes around. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 17 Apr 2012 14:23:07 Malvern Star wrote:

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Systemsetting -> (icon) login screen -> (tab) _U_sers -> [x] show list

I am aware of this setting. No user list is shown.

It's a design decision of kdm-branding-openSUSE that it has no user list, and is not affected by that setting. I want the 12.2 branding to have a user list or be available in a -with-userlist version. You can install kdm-branding-upstream on 12.1 as a workaround.

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"landscape documents" ? The printer dialogue I see lets me rotate, centre, autofit etc.

The printer is set up correctly. The print preview and settings both show as landscape, but it still prints out in portrait mode. It is a bug.

Which application are we talking about here? Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Board, Booster, KDE Developer SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

It is true, OpenSUSE lacks good quality, stability and perfomance in its latest releases. There are some things to be done: Fix KDE update notifier/manager, and catch-up with Gnome one features if possible. Fix KDE crashes (plasma, nepomuk, policikit-kde, apper). Increase the perfomance (not everybody has a super powerful computer). El día 17 de abril de 2012 11:42, Freek de Kruijf escribió:

On dinsdag 17 april 2012 07:49:53 Will Stephenson wrote:

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The printer is set up correctly. The print preview and settings both show as landscape, but it still prints out in portrait mode. It is a bug.

Which application are we talking about here?

LibreOffice, currently I use 3.5.2.2, don't know about other versions. It is the same in openSUSE 11.4. I ran into that problem yesterday. Changing "Printer Language type" from "PDF" to "Postscript (Level from driver)" in "Printer Settings" -> "Properties" tab "Device" solved the problem. These dialogs are LibreOffice specific, so I don't know about other environments. It looks that it is better to set the default in LibreOffice in openSUSE, which is now set to PDF, to "Postscript (Level from driver)".

-- fr.gr.

Freek de Kruijf -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 07:54 AM Malvern Star wrote:

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The printer is set up correctly. The print preview and settings both show as landscape, but it still prints out in portrait mode. It is a bug.

Which application are we talking about here?

LibreOffice, currently I use 3.5.2.2, don't know about other versions. It is the same in openSUSE 11.4. I ran into that problem yesterday. Changing "Printer Language type" from "PDF" to "Postscript (Level from driver)" in "Printer Settings" -> "Properties" tab "Device" solved the problem. These dialogs are LibreOffice specific, so I don't know about other environments. It looks that it is better to set the default in LibreOffice in openSUSE, which is now set to PDF, to "Postscript (Level from driver)".

Freek, anecdotally, the problem may not be LibreOffice-specific. I've had occasional problems from 11.4 onwards printing some PDFs with Okular. I've had to open them in Adobe Reader on Windows to get them to print correctly. Examples include lack of colour, or only printing one colour, or only printing the outlines of letters instead of having them show as solid colour. Not sure if it's related, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Malvern. --

Sorry I can't remember the details - it's been well over a year since I researched this - but there was a known problem with printing pdf's in Ocular and I've seen it occasionally with Acroread. I seem to recall it was considered unresolvable (by KDE?) because it was upstream (CUPS?). I'm still on 11.4, and have had to work around this for a long time. Sometimes a file will print properly if the opposite mode is set (e.g., portrait for a landscape doc), sometimes I can't get it to work nohow and have to print using a Windows vm. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/04/17 08:15 (GMT-0400) Dennis Gallien composed:

On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 07:54 AM Malvern Star wrote:

Sorry I can't remember the details - it's been well over a year since I researched this - but there was a known problem with printing pdf's in Ocular and I've seen it occasionally with Acroread. I seem to recall it was considered unresolvable (by KDE?) because it was upstream (CUPS?). I'm still on 11.4, and have had to work around this for a long time. Sometimes a file will print properly if the opposite mode is set (e.g., portrait for a landscape doc), sometimes I can't get it to work nohow and have to print using a Windows vm.

Sometimes I need to use Firefox 2, but I can't print from it because it swaps landscape & portrait orientation without conforming content size. I either get huge bottom margin or lose the right side depending on which I choose. FF 3+ print as they should. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 17. April 2012, 14:23:07 schrieb Malvern Star:

it should not be necessary in the first place.

I think this one sentence is the core point of the whole thread. A situation where users think "This used to work in previous versions, why doesn't it anymore?" should be avoided. bye, MH -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org